Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 11:11 AM	Just a question of game balance: Given these two points: The Mystic Theruge (MT) is seen as a fairly week PrC, in that you lose 3 caster levels in both of your caster classes before entering, and more afterward. Generally the gain in versitility and number of spells is seen as inferior to the loss of caster level. The Ultimate Magus (UM), particularly if used with the "caster level trick" with Practiced Spell caster, is seen as a pretty good trade off. What is your opinion on a variation of the MT class, where the entry requirements would be 2nd level arcane and 1st level divine casting (or 1st level arcane and 2nd level divine casting)? I would think you would limit the spell casting progression similar to the UM (only one class advances at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels). Also, a few abilities could get added in (I haven't thought up specifics. Perhaps levels stacking with Turn Undead, or total character level for Caster Level checks like Spell Resistance). Also, to prevent early entry, similar to the UM, one or several skills could be required as a prereq with a minimum of 8 ranks. I think good candidates are Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana) and/or Knowledge (religion). Anyway, the idea would be to make a PrC where you would only have to give up two levels in one class (over the full 20 levels) to gain the versitilty of a new type of magic (arcane or divine), more spells per day, and a few other abilities. For simplicity, conisder using the exact build of UM, but switch "spontaneous arcane casting class" with "divine casting class", and remove the special abilities (to be swapped with some new ones I haven't created yet) :P. What's everyone thoughts on this? Would this MT variant be more attractive? It is too broken?
LoneFlame 09-05-07, 11:19 AM	You're not going to get into a prestige class before lv 6. That's like an unwritten rule or something. No matter what, you will loss some caster lvs. Losing 3 per class is okay if you're a Wizard/Cleric Combo. I think that the class should have mid-range BAB, a d6 hit dice, and be 15 lvs long. It's highly unconventional, but then you aren't cheated for several lvs. I mean hell, look at the Eldritch Theurge or Eldritch Disciple in Complete Mage and you'll be like "Holy crap Mystic Theurge sucks." Those classes actually get class features to go with their spell slinging progressions.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 11:46 AM	You're not going to get into a prestige class before lv 6. That's like an unwritten rule or something. No matter what, you will loss some caster lvs. Losing 3 per class is okay if you're a Wizard/Cleric Combo. I should have specified more (and I'll edit the OP to reflect this). I don't want the character to meet the prereqs until level 5 (so they can't enter in until level 6). I should also add in some minimum skill ranks of 8 (such as Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and/or Knowledge (religion). Thus (similar to the UM) even though you can hit the caster requirements at level 4, you can't hit the skill requirements until level 5. Thanks for pointing that out.
LoneFlame 09-05-07, 12:05 PM	Glad to actually be helpful. All in all, I do like what I'm seeing on this set up. The caster requirements should definitely be both "2nd lv divine spells & 1rst lv arcane spells" or "2nd lv arcane spells and 1rst lv divine spells." I've already stated this, but... since Eldritch Disciple gets a d8 for hit dice, I think Mystic Theurge should get a d6 instead of that crummy d4. Between those two, you have a good base for your remake. I'm looking forward to seeing what special abilities you give it.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 12:37 PM	I can't say when I'll actually write something up. I may or may not split it into two separate PrCs (one arcane dominant and one divne dominant). The only reason I might split it is to give different special abilities. A 15 level PrC would certainly be nice, but I think if it were 10, and I granted +9 or 10 caster levels to the dominant class and +7 o 8 to the other, it could still be a worth-while trade. I do like the idea of d6 Hit Dice. Also, while I'm on the subject, perhaps I could submit some preliminary ideas for special abilities for review: Levels of the MT class stack with cleric levels for Turn Undead checks. Slowly get caster level bonuses (to a max of Hit Dice) thorughout the PrC to simiulate Practiced Spellcaster. For example, +1 at level 1, +2 at level 4, +3 at level 7, and +4 at level 10. Thus a Clr 4/Wiz 1/MT 4 would have a cleric caster level of 9 (+4 Cleric, +4 MT, +2 bonus, capped at 9 for Hit Dice) and a wizard caster level of 5 (+1 Wizard, +2 MT, +2 bonus). Allow the use of one Turn Undead attempt (as a swift action) to lower the level of a metamagic feat applied to an arcane spell by one. Cannot lower the spell's level below it's orignal level. Only allow this to be applied once per spell. Thus you could use a Turn Undead attempt to apply Empower Spell with only a +1 spell level increase. Allow the use of one Turn Undead attempt (as a swift action) to make an arcane spell holy during casting. All evil creatures that take damage from that spell take an additional 1d6 damage (perhaps this needs tweaking. Seems a bit weak, but maybe not). Allow MT levels to stack for familiar abilities. Allow the familiar to gain either the fiendish or celestial template (depending on if the cleric channels negative or positive energy), and maybe some other abilities as the MT level increases. Anyway, these are some ideas the come to mind right now. I wouldn't use all of them in the class, but I'm looking for some feedback before going much further. ;)
Stardust 09-05-07, 01:20 PM	You're not going to get into a prestige class before lv 6. That's like an unwritten rule or something. Church Inquisitor - Complete Divine. Can be taken at level 4. Master Specialist - Complete Mage. Can be taken at level 4. There's others as well. It's not an unwritten rule, it's just the overwhelming majority don't let you qualify before sixth.
Eldritch_Lord 09-05-07, 05:09 PM	I may or may not split it into two separate PrCs (one arcane dominant and one divne dominant). The only reason I might split it is to give different special abilities. You don't really have to split it into 2 PrCs; instead, make the requirement something along the lines of "Ability to cast 2nd level arcane and 1st level divine spells or 2nd level divine and 1st level arcane spells." Then, at each level they would gain a special ability that would apply to one class, make two and let them choose which they get. For example, using your ideas from above, at level 1 they might get +1 CL to both of their classes; this is fixed because it benefits both sides. At 2nd level, they could choose either to add divine levels to arcane and MT to determine familiar benefits OR add arcane levels to divine and MT to determine turning. You could always make 3 or 4 abilities and let them choose each ability at 2 different levels, so an arcane-focused MT could, say, choose "familiar stacking" at 2nd level and "turning stacking" at level X after that, while a divine-focused MT would choose "turning stacking" first. That way, they would get 6-8 abilities, plus the CL bonuses, but they'd be able to customize it a bit without having to choose to focus in arcane or divine when entering.
Xeorsos 09-05-07, 07:08 PM	My main problem with the Mystic Theurge isn't the fact that you lose 3 levels on both casting sides- It's that the class has absolutely no flavor. Essentially, someone sat down and said "Hmm... arcane and divine spells. Go." Yes, you're leveling two distinctly different magic systems, and that's awesome in and of itself, but the two classes you feed into this PrC have absolutely no synergy. That's how I felt that the Ultimate Magus succeeded so amazingly, because you can have the two classes playing off one another. Perhaps you could take a note from the Geomancer PrC and try to incorporate some of the unique synergies it has. Also, 3 levels behind on each class is kind of a kicker that few feel like paying. Perhaps you could do 2nd level Divine, 1st level Arcane and make the class based on an Arcane-style deity or school of study? If you did it this way you could skip out on Divine progression on the first level and your divine class would only be missing 2 levels, opposed to the 3 the arcane would be.
StevenO 09-05-07, 11:44 PM	I don't thinking converting the MT to be more like the Ultimate Magus is such a good idea. From a spellcasting standpoint the UM is basically just adding on more of what you have with a little different flavor. Going UM with wizard/sorcerer doesn't give you access to any new spells although you effectively trade the highest level spells off for a large number of lower level ones that can be cast a little differents. With a Cleric/Wizard based UM that "other" spellcasting type gives you access to things you typically couldn't do before unlike the typical UM which draws spells from the same spell list. As for spell power-up from a PrC I think the MT does a much better job of it than the UT. The MT does have higher spell entry requirements but advances both sides all the time which is much cleaner design than the UT who only advances both 7/10 of the time but has a somewhat complex way to determine what advances the other 3/10 times. At 16th level a UM split is 12/11 while an optimized UM may be casting at 14/9 but if you want those 5th levels spells in the other class (or go sorcerer high) they'll be 13/10 which is behind the MT's 13/13 split; I guess you could say actual spellcasting goes to the MT. Now I will agree the the biggest problem (unless you count its spellcasting as its biggest problem) with the MT is its complete lack of abilities. Besides abilities I believe the MT should graduate to a d6 HD as it is balance between wizard and cleric. My idea for an ability would be allow the MT to burn Turn Attempts as a free action act as a temporary CL increase; this would be similar to the UM's Arcane Spellpower and I'd probably advance it the same way even allowing spending on turning for a +4 CL increase. Allowing the spending of turn undead to reduce metamagics is an idea but I want to know is how are my wizard levels actually going to help my divine casting? I suppose an interesting way to make the arcane spells interesting is allowing the divine to convert arcane spells into some form of "divine retribution" which could take the form of a ray dealing 1d8/spell level lost of divine damage. One thing I'd consider adding is a reduction is ASF similiar to what a Spellsword gets although this is more divine aiding arcane. Comparing the MT to the Eldritch Disciple does have a few problems. The ED may have relatively simple entry requirements (War1/Cl4) but does give up a divine casting level a ED1 and the "Gifts" require turnings. Eldritch Spellweave is nice I will admit. Two hidden costs of the ED are giving up the +1 BAB for Warlock 1 (I know Divine Power can eventually make that up as it is ALWAYS the solution to divine BAB problems.) and also reducing you clerics armor to meet the Warlock's restrictions. I would consider this similiar to to the UM but there are those hidden restrictions. The Eldritch Theurge may actually be a somewhat fair comparision to the MT. Both classes require 3 levels on their respective sides to meet the spellcasting and Eldritch Blast requirements. Both classes offer dual advancement for all ten levels along with 2 skill points, a d4 HD, and a good Will Save. After that you could say the ET has a big advantages of the MT because of its 3/4 BAB and special abilities. The 3/4 BAB can be explained away as the MT will probably be relying mostly on spells making attack rolls uncommon while the ET will still be using Eldritch Blast; if this is such a big issue then give the MT the 3/4 BAB as well but see the previous comment about Divine Power. Then the question is does Divine Spellcasting make up for the Invocation levels and special abilities, over the course of a typical adventure I'd say it actually does. The Warlocks advantage is its ability to do lots of little things all the time which are probably inferior to what a divine casters spells can do in a limited amount of time. All in all the MT and ET are pretty even.
LoneFlame 09-06-07, 12:06 PM	Mystic Theurge lacks flavor, and that is quite possibly it's biggest drawback. You don't just want to go into Mystic Theurge for the full spell progressions. You want to go in for some nifty fluff stuff. I'd definitely like to see some flavor in the class, cause as it stands, it's kinda lame(especially compared to similar classes).
RobbyPants 09-06-07, 02:06 PM	As for spell power-up from a PrC I think the MT does a much better job of it than the UT. The MT does have higher spell entry requirements but advances both sides all the time which is much cleaner design than the UT who only advances both 7/10 of the time but has a somewhat complex way to determine what advances the other 3/10 times. At 16th level a UM split is 12/11 while an optimized UM may be casting at 14/9 but if you want those 5th levels spells in the other class (or go sorcerer high) they'll be 13/10 which is behind the MT's 13/13 split; I guess you could say actual spellcasting goes to the MT. The point of the variant I want to create is to deleberately trade in a few caster levels (going from 10/10 to 10/7) in exchange for a few falvorful abilities and lighter entry requirements on one of the caster classes. The second half is the biggest reason for this, because you could get 9th level spells in your "dominant" class that way. Although, I guess with the MT as written, you can squeak out a 17th level caster by 20th level. The way I'm thinking about setting it up is you pick either arcane or divine to have 2nd level spells, and that becomes your "dominant" or "primary" class, and the other is the "secondary" class and only needs 1st level spells to enter. Regardless if the PC multiclasses later and raises the secondary class above the primary, this choice is made upon entering the PrC at 1st level. At that point, I'd have the primary class get a 10/10 progression and the secondary 7/10. But perhaps that's too powerful, as even in UM, you can only get that level of progression by "tricking" the class with Practiced Spellcaster. Perhaps I'd set the primary to be 9/10, and the secondary to be 8/10, forcing another caster-level loss on the primary class. Two out of 20 isn't too bad.
StevenO 09-06-07, 11:01 PM	Losing two levels out of 20 isn't too bad when you also get another nine levels of support spells that aren't something you'd normally have access to. I can see what you are trying to do but I don't believe it is a good thing for game balance. The UM progression works and isn't overpowered because it is just stacking arcane on top of arcane which doesn't really offer more options; stacking arcane and divine in a similiar fashion means opening up a new set of abilities (spells) that the character would normally not be able to access. While it has limited applications without Practiced Spellcaster to unbalance the levels the UM comes out worse spell wise than a MT; practiced spellcaster is much of what "breaks" the UM which is otherwise 7-8/10 "primary" and 9-10/10 "secondary". Unless you also throw out the DMG's MT I see a definite problem with entering this hybred UM and then following it with five levels of "the worthless" MT netting a character possible a 14/18 split. Now losing two level in your "primary" casting class to pick up fourteen in you "secondary" class which can cast completely different spells IS too good.
deviknyte 09-07-07, 09:04 AM	I think what mystic theruge is missing can be seen in arcane heirophant. Mystic theruge is a cleric wizards and should get the average hd, d6. The also need some kind of special ability. AH gets the channel ability and familar companion. AH's wild shape increase could be amounted to the fact that wild shape makes up for druids weaker spell list. I haven't fixed MT in my house rules yet but Cerebromancer was fixed with a psifamiliar and with meta cross over ability I gave them. It lets you use meta-magics on powers and meta-powers on spells. Math is in the spell point variant (I use spell points anyways). Giving mystic theruge d6 hit points and some kind of special ability is what the class is missing. Nothing to powerful, but definatly something usefull.
RobbyPants 09-07-07, 10:18 AM	The UM progression works and isn't overpowered because it is just stacking arcane on top of arcane which doesn't really offer more options; stacking arcane and divine in a similiar fashion means opening up a new set of abilities (spells) that the character would normally not be able to access. While it has limited applications without Practiced Spellcaster to unbalance the levels the UM comes out worse spell wise than a MT; practiced spellcaster is much of what "breaks" the UM which is otherwise 7-8/10 "primary" and 9-10/10 "secondary". I even with the UM being arcan on arcane, they get that uber-powerful ability to boost a spell with a metamagic without increasing it's level (by paying the cost with a spontaneous spell slot of equal level). This can give you 13th level (or higher) virtual spells. Granted, I don't want to give that ability to my MT variant, but I that the UM gets enough to help make up for not getting any more versitility into their spell list. Unless you also throw out the DMG's MT I see a definite problem with entering this hybred UM and then following it with five levels of "the worthless" MT netting a character possible a 14/18 split. Now losing two level in your "primary" casting class to pick up fourteen in you "secondary" class which can cast completely different spells IS too good. I guess the ideal total I'm looking for would be something like 18/9. or 17/10.
BloodDragon 09-07-07, 01:17 PM	You can get into the MT class legally without changing any of the rules at Cleric 3/Wizard 1 or Wizard 3/Cleric 1 with a little help from Dragon Magazine #325 The Feat Alternative Source Spell [Metamagic] Lets you cast your Divine spells as an Arcane spell or your Arcane spells as a Divine Spells. So long as you cast a 2rd level spell you can cast it as either type, there by qualifying you for the Mystic Theurge. I suggest talking to your DM about it, as it is a little bit of cheese but if you were planning to change the class altogether this is a better option anyway.
StevenO 09-07-07, 02:04 PM	I even with the UM being arcan on arcane, they get that uber-powerful ability to boost a spell with a metamagic without increasing it's level (by paying the cost with a spontaneous spell slot of equal level). This can give you 13th level (or higher) virtual spells. Granted, I don't want to give that ability to my MT variant, but I that the UM gets enough to help make up for not getting any more versitility into their spell list. I guess the ideal total I'm looking for would be something like 18/9. or 17/10. I know how well the UM can boost the spell slot equivalency using its abilities. In another thread that is the basis of why I say a "straight" UM build can be powerful without the PS trick. The thing about making a virtual 13th (actually you can get 14th with the PS trick) is that those are still just 5th level spells metamagiced to max. Remember that the UM can give up any spell from one class to apply a metamagic to a spell 1/2 UM level MAX on the other side; that mean you could burn a 9th level spell for MM but it only could work on a 5th level spell. I was looking and can only find two MM feats that would enable that (heighten and fortify) but they just improve the chance of getting through; the only MM feat higher than +4 that I find is Persistant which IS strong but you'll still be burning two spell slots to do that. The Mystic Theurge already enables some "broken" combos by using other PrCs which offer advanced spellcasting progressions. It is a boring class which should have 1d6 HD and probably a little more (3/4 BAB or something I've already mentioned) but for what it does it is ok.