Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 02-20-07, 07:24 AM	Gave Up :d
kadeity 02-20-07, 07:25 AM	deleted
kadeity 02-20-07, 07:52 AM	(reserrrrved)
kadeity 02-20-07, 07:55 AM	also reserved
kadeity 02-20-07, 08:21 AM	yeah sorry. reserved tooooo
aotrscommander 02-20-07, 09:02 AM	My own 'fix' is not too disimilar; I added a feat at the empty levels (an 'any' feat not just a fighter bonus feat) and have added some extra utility to a handful of feats. I suspect you will get more-or-less the same sort of responce as I have, which is "slight improvement, but not enough" (except you have a few scaling feats which are considered the way to go, at least in part.) Oh, and you increased the skills, which I haven't. (Not that I'd argue it doesn't hurt).
Gecon 02-20-07, 09:16 AM	Whow. Now that would make fighter ultra powerful. For example Weapon Focus ... a full +5 to the attack roll ? Now thats insanely powerful ! I don't see why Weapon Specialization needs a special Fighter bonus... it is already exclusive to fighters, isn't it ?
kadeity 02-20-07, 09:16 AM	... (except you have a few scaling feats which are considered the way to go, at least in part.) Oh, and you increased the skills, which I haven't. (Not that I'd argue it doesn't hurt). Also added good reflex... i dunno why someone so adept at combat would have bad reflexes. And gave the guy spot & listen.. so now he can actually keep watch. :rolleyes: most of the other fixes are feat related though. And yeah, most feats scale. A few feats reward you for going farther in the feat tree. For example the Mounted feats automatically improve your ride checks... And the Two Weapon fighting feats are slightly more useful for a fighter, since each one lowers the penalties for dual wielding by one. The archery feats are difficult to use, but with a few key choices you can now make attacks of oppertunity within 30ft with a bow... which is uber nice. anyway... i think its pretty good...
Lt_Murgen 02-20-07, 09:18 AM	A couple of Fighter bonus feats I would like to see: 1) Improved Critical Stacking (fighter only). This feat allows the Fighter to stack all improvements from improved criticals. Currently, feats such as Improve critical do not stack with effects like Keen edge. This bonus feat allows those items to stack. -rationale: we've all seen it in countless movies. The high and mighty fighter killing foes with a critical blow (chop to the neck, arrow to the eye, heck the LOTR series is full of them). Why not make it a fighter only feat? 2) Starting at level 1, fighters get 2 skill points per level in auto-hypnosis (from the psionics handbook). It is still considered a cross-class skill, but the 2 extra points bump them up +1 per level. -Rationale: Why auto-hypnosis? Because it grants the ability to try to ignore wounds and disabling conditions, something a tough fighter would be able to. 3) Fighter focus: This is similar to the concept in the psionics handbook. If the fighter spends an entire round gaining focus, it should allow him to attune his weapon to deal extra damage to certain types of creatures. Good / evil, incorporeal. They should have to pick each time they take the feat. -Rationale: right now, fighters have to rely on mages to cast spells to allow them to penetrate certain DRs. This would un-hobble them. Of course, it would have to have certain restrictions.
ContinuityLapse 02-20-07, 09:52 AM	I'd like to see more of the feats scaling with Fighter levels, with the extra benefits held back until at least 5th level. The 1st-4th level Fighter doesn't really need any powering up, and doesn't need to be made any more attractive to level dippers.
Devlonir 02-20-07, 10:35 AM	also, the ruling should be that these extra fighter feat increases only are available to pure fighters (kinda like how paladin's who break their code of conduct works) It is a reward for people who devote their entire life to martial training and should not be available to those people who take 2 fighters levels just for the feats. I like the fighter focus idea as well. But BoNS also has quite a lot of fixes for martial archetypes. A DMing friend of mine is working on a fix for all martial classes using the stances/maneauvers and such from BoNS. He will give fighters and barbarians a lot of extra's from the BoNS, also add some extra flavor to rangers, making them either more like spellcasters or more martial (probably choice at creation) and will fix the paladin to give him more special stuff than a smite (think about aura's who give party buffs as well as more ways of buffing himself than a few spells) Also he wants to give monks a few psionic like abilities to increase their options, creating a sort of mix of the current monk and psychic warrior. I am waiting in anticipation to see what he comes up with.
mkill 02-20-07, 11:11 AM	I hope I don't shock anyone when I mention that the idea to rewrite all feats to bump the fighter is not new. From the possible fighter fixes I think that's the one which is least promising. Why? 1) It breaks a basic game assumption, and that is that spells, feats, items and skills work the same for every class 2) It involves a massive rules rewrite of material spread over a lot of books like PHB, PHB II, CW, CA, MHB, Dragon, ToB, HoB, RS ... 3) It can be achieved in a simpler way. Bump all feats to double strength? Why not just double the number of feats? 4) It does not address certain issues with the fighter, such as - uselessness out of combat - dependence on equipment - dependence on buffing and healing from other party members - lack of options against foes with supernatural and magic abilities - main tactics like grappling and tripping become useless against oversized, flying, blinking, incorporeal etc. foes at higher levels - easy target for save-or-dies at higher levels (You even forgot the very basic must-have fighter-fix, to allow more flexibility with Weapon Focus... :nonono: ) 5) If you just bump the numerical values of feats, the ToB classes will still simply out-cool the fighter 6) It disregards the simplest fighter-fix: Don't play one beyond fourth level (after all, it works for the swashbuckler) I suggest you spend a few hours studying the piles and piles of existing fighter fixes here (Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fboards1.wizards.co m+fighter+fix&btnG=Google+Search)) and then come back with fresh ideas.
Leress 02-20-07, 02:50 PM	You may want to look at these threads http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=723 These two are about the "Dead levels" article http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=720665&page=2 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=720916 Thing is that you are "fixing" the fighter while shortening the gap (a little) between caster and melee, the other melee classes still suffer. *this one just popped at me* Okay why do blind fight give an ability of ghost touch? The reason there was a miss chance is because they have no physical body. I will give my review of the rest soon...
Ghenesh 02-20-07, 03:19 PM	I tried the same thing some time ago... got some good advices and some congrats posts... then i realized no one would use the fix in a real campaign (not even me) because it was such a big change in game mechanics that made look Polymorph erratas seem simple. Look at this fix: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=794219 , has the same idea but applied in a more simpler way. You can take this and make it more appealing to your taste.
Elemental_Master 02-20-07, 03:31 PM	I'm not a big fan of the Physical Prowness but the improved feats are my favorite fix. The simple addition of giving the fighter skills a COMONNER has is another plus. I didn't invest much thought when looking at the feat bonuses but nothing is really outstanding. Yes it could take a long time to implace these fixes but we all know the power of the internet and how WoTC could put this in an article and allow it as a houserule that makes fighters have improved feats. And yeah the key is making feats as worthwhile as spells. Wait what was that? Yes Look at the Wizard and Fighter. They both lack class ability's. The wizard gets spells which SCALE and come in good quantity's. The fighter feats don't scale and are all that a fighter gets so they should be good! I like some of the class ability idea's that make the fighter seem more skilled at what he does (focus vs. rage.) But IMO there is no way of making a fighter less reling on his equipment short of making him take a monk lvl.
Illithid_Tentacles 02-20-07, 07:38 PM	I like the idea, and I appreciate the work you've put into this, but in all honesty, I can't see it being very productive, if at all. It's too involved, really, at least for something you can find on the internet. WotC has produced their own fighter fix: the Tome of Battle. The Warblade is the new Fighter. A MUCH less craptacular Fighter, but still, it's the new Fighter, and for the precise, word-for-word reason that you, personally, provided: Feats are not class abilities. Beleive me, I think it outright sucks that they had to do that, but the fact remains that they did.
aelryinth 02-20-07, 08:43 PM	To be sure, you have to fix Fighter BOnus Feats to truly fix the fighter. The Feats should scale. You went a little overboard on some of them (WF to +5? GWF to +10? homigawd), the skill points are definitely too high, and you don't really resize the value of a Fighter's Core Chassis feats (martial armor and weopon profs). In all seriousness, that Greater Weapon Focus alone almost solves who'd want the fighter class. At level 20, that's a +10 bonus to hit, and that is supremely abusable by all sorts of things. The entire Weapon Spec tree only gives a +4 by itself, and that's considered pretty good...ditto a Barb's rage. To be completely serious, the Tome of Battle's Nine Schools IS a feat fix. You can look at the manuvers and in many cases match them up one on one with feats. I wrote up a big comparison of Warblade and Fighter on regdar's, where if you look at it, the Warblade comes out with something like 33 feats to a Fighter's 11. It's pretty sick...and his feats scale and stack much more nicely. Utterly agree on the feats need fixing. I notice how you went right from Cleave to Supreme Cleave for your fix, hah! ===Aelryinth
kadeity 02-20-07, 08:56 PM	Whow. Now that would make fighter ultra powerful. For example Weapon Focus ... a full +5 to the attack roll ? Now thats insanely powerful ! I don't see why Weapon Specialization needs a special Fighter bonus... it is already exclusive to fighters, isn't it ? Nah. The point of both of these is that they now SCALE by fighter level. besides there are feats that allow multiclass fighters to get these feats... and my intent is for all of these special fighter benefits to be fighter only. Why? 1) It breaks a basic game assumption, and that is that spells, feats, items and skills work the same for every class [\QUOTE] Untrue. For one, Many classes have abilities that make their spells more potent. For another, a few feats are already sortof fighter exclusive. And dont forget about abilities like hide in plain sight, that make your hide checks stronger. Thre reality is that class abilities are things that change the normal rules, and i dont see why one class being better at using feats that EVERYONE GETS when its ALL IT GETS is so bad. [QUOTE] 2) It involves a massive rules rewrite of material spread over a lot of books like PHB, PHB II, CW, CA, MHB, Dragon, ToB, HoB, RS ... [\QUOTE] Yes. SO did 3.5, and when somethings broken you have to do somethign about it. Besides, i wrote down all the feats last night. There are about 100 or so. Thats not a HUGE amount, and its not a rewrite. its a few extra lines that can me shortened as "fighters do it better". [QUOTE] 3) It can be achieved in a simpler way. Bump all feats to double strength? Why not just double the number of feats? [\QUOTE] Fighters arent always a strength based class. Some fighters are Dex. Others actually use, god forbid, Feint's and Bluff! And doubling the number of feats doesnt change that FEATS arent CLASS ABILITIES. [QUOTE] 4) It does not address certain issues with the fighter, such as - uselessness out of combat - dependence on equipment - dependence on buffing and healing from other party members - lack of options against foes with supernatural and magic abilities - main tactics like grappling and tripping become useless against oversized, flying, blinking, incorporeal etc. foes at higher levels - easy target for save-or-dies at higher levels (You even forgot the very basic must-have fighter-fix, to allow more flexibility with Weapon Focus... ) [\QUOTE] I added Spot and Listen and upped Skill points, which go a long way to add use out of combat. Sure others can do that, and sometimes better, but it helps. The dependance on equipment... well theres no real way to overcome that without bringing magic to the table. The buffing and healing from other party members is something most classes have... except the ones that buff themselves, and again, bringing magic to the table. True. Some opponents are immune to basic fighter tactics. A ghost touch bow gets rid of a bit of that...but i see your point. Well...i tried to fix that by adding a good reflex, but really any class with poor will has to deal with that. [QUOTE] 5) If you just bump the numerical values of feats, the ToB classes will still simply out-cool the fighter [\QUOTE] Thats true. So i didnt. If you look carefully, alot of feats have more uses, and synergy with other feats. But Tome of battle Out cools Everything. [QUOTE] 6) It disregards the simplest fighter-fix: Don't play one beyond fourth level (after all, it works for the swashbuckler) [\QUOTE] Basic rule of problems solving: avoiding the problem is not problem solving. [QUOTE] 1) Improved Critical Stacking (fighter only). This feat allows the Fighter to stack all improvements from improved criticals. Currently, feats such as Improve critical do not stack with effects like Keen edge. This bonus feat allows those items to stack. -rationale: we've all seen it in countless movies. The high and mighty fighter killing foes with a critical blow (chop to the neck, arrow to the eye, heck the LOTR series is full of them). Why not make it a fighter only feat? Amazing point. but if you werent VERY careful in how you phrased it, people would be critting on 4's again. 2) Starting at level 1, fighters get 2 skill points per level in auto-hypnosis (from the psionics handbook). It is still considered a cross-class skill, but the 2 extra points bump them up +1 per level. -Rationale: Why auto-hypnosis? Because it grants the ability to try to ignore wounds and disabling conditions, something a tough fighter would be able to. Well why not just make it a class skill rather than give free ranks? 3) Fighter focus: This is similar to the concept in the psionics handbook. If the fighter spends an entire round gaining focus, it should allow him to attune his weapon to deal extra damage to certain types of creatures. Good / evil, incorporeal. They should have to pick each time they take the feat. -Rationale: right now, fighters have to rely on mages to cast spells to allow them to penetrate certain DRs. This would un-hobble them. Of course, it would have to have certain restrictions. this exists. its called combat focus.... and the whole tree is made up of feats a fighter can take as a bonus feat. Someone made a good point though....Would a feat every level be so bad? i mean it would be hard enough for the fighter to find feats on the fighter bonus feats list he met the prerequisites for... and most of his feats are Supremely conditional.
Jethren 02-20-07, 09:43 PM	I'm not saying this wouldn't work, but it just feels wrong. Somehow, making feats work differently for the Fighter doesn't seem to convey the sense of the class properly to me. A Fighter is somone who is well trained in the fightin arts. Somone who, in a fantasy world, is able to rely on ordinary skill...and win. To me, a better fix would be to increase the number of Fighter-specific feats. If there were some really good ones in there, it might help. For example, a feat that grants a bonus to trip, disarm, and bull rush rolls. Or a feat that allows finesse with larger weapons. Bonus sundering damage or an improved Dodge perhaps? Given a better selection of unique feats, and unique feats that are actually worth having, the Fighter would instantly become a more attractive choice. Giving more feats might not be bad either. There is nothing wrong with any of the suggested bonuses, of course, but why not make them thier own Fighter feats, possibly with the other feats as prequisites? This would even help to fix one of my personal Fighter gripes, specifically that there really isn't enough diversity in how you can make them, because there are too many feat combinations that just aren't viable.
ContinuityLapse 02-20-07, 11:24 PM	The trouble with extending the existing feat streams is that it forces a Fighter to further specialise - which is a problem when lack of versatility is one of the Fighter's main weaknesses to begin with. I wouldn't mind seeing some more high-powered, high-level feats, but I don't think they're incompatible with the scaling of existing feats. Why not have both? I mean, compare it with magic: as a caster increases in level, his low-level spells get more powerful, longer lasting, further reaching etc. AND he gains access to higher level spells.