Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ssvegeta555 10-19-03, 09:45 PM	Some of you can agree that the fighter class is the weakest core class in D&D. I also agree. I wanted to make the fighter a better class, but in a unique way. I've seen so many varients to the fighter but none I liked. All that I've seen just fed the fighter more feats (even though only the fighter can take them). I wanted something more unique to help motivate the player to play through all 20 levels in the class. So me and my friend started brainstorming ideas. My friend came up with an ecxelent idea, called Battle Orders. This is similer to Rage but different at the same time. Well heres what I've got. Fighter Special Ability: Battle Orders A fighter of at least level 1 can imbue himself with combat prowess. While under the effects of battle orders the fighter has multiple options at what he would excel at for the duration. Only one effect may be chosen at the issue of the battle command. Doing so is a free action. Offensive Combat: The fighter gains a +2 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Defensive Combat: The fighter gains a +2 deflection bonus to his armor class. Strong Will: The fighter gains a +2 morale bonus to his will saves. Starting at 5th level and every 5 levels behond that ( 10th,15th, 20th) the fighters Battle Orders bonuses increase by one, gratning a total of 3 at level 5, 4 at level 10 and so on. A fighter is able to use this once per day per 4 levels of fighter class. The battle orders last as many rounds equal to 3 + his fighter level + his charisma bonus. So, what do you think? Any comments and feed-back will be welcomed.
ssvegeta555 10-20-03, 01:13 PM	huh... is it that good that theres no feed-back to improve it (sarcasm). :D
ssvegeta555 10-21-03, 01:09 PM	:bump: Does any one have any ideas, feeb-back, comments? Should I add this to my fighter? (I'm lonley :D )
Laucien_of_Llanowar 10-21-03, 05:13 PM	awwww........ poor baby's a little lonley. I've really found nothing wrong with the fighter. If I want to make an Eldritch Knight I usually start out with a Fighter. Basically because I can max out on the metamagic feats and use the bonus feats to get stuff like leadership, improved initiative, and so on. I don't know why everyone rags on the fighter so much. I think it's a pretty cool class.
Lago AM3P 10-21-03, 05:20 PM	I don't know why everyone rags on the fighter so much. If someone can give me a good reason why levels 1 and two of fighter give out more than levels 17, 18, 19, and 20, I'll never speak ill of the fighter.
Endarire 10-21-03, 06:28 PM	Straight D&D fighters are heading toward Daggerfall usefulness of being marginally useful compared to other classes after around 4th level. Feats help until the feat chain is exhausted but at least utility spells continue being useful for most of a caster's career. As for your proposal, give a bonus every 5 levels and use every 4 and make BO last 3+fighter level+CHA bonus rounds. -EE
ssvegeta555 10-21-03, 11:17 PM	Originally posted by Endarire Straight D&D fighters are heading toward Daggerfall usefulness of being marginally useful compared to other classes after around 4th level. Feats help until the feat chain is exhausted but at least utility spells continue being useful for most of a caster's career. As for your proposal, give a bonus every 5 levels and use every 4 and make BO last 3+fighter level+CHA bonus rounds. -EE oooh replies. I like your ideas, I'll make the changes.
mercurywyrm 10-21-03, 11:55 PM	The fighter is not a barbarian. You should try something else. However they should be able to decide what they want to concentrate on in combat, maybe with... I dunno, power attack and expertice. Sorry if you think this is flaming, I just want to remind you not to try to give a class another classes ability that they essentially don't need in order to make up for something they seem to not have. Be more meticulus. Fighters have more opportunities to take these feats and don't need all of the obsurd attack bonus they get every round. Many people say barbarians are better and can take these feats too but the fighter can take these and others! Let me see by 6th level they have 7 feats... expirtice, quick draw, power attack, leadership, that leaves... 4 feats for specializing in a certain style and you have already started two potential chains and have leadership to attact a cohort! And what kind of cohort you ask? Well one that makes you fight better and longer like a bard, cleric, or wizard. Bard seems it might be the best choice just as long as it is one that knows healing spells. If this isn't a major contribution to the party I don't know what is. And by the way, if you don't like melee that much just drop the power attack for a 5th feat! And thats not even a human fighter!!!
april151978 10-22-03, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Laucien_of_Llanowar awwww........ poor baby's a little lonley. I've really found nothing wrong with the fighter. If I want to make an Eldritch Knight I usually start out with a Fighter. Basically because I can max out on the metamagic feats and use the bonus feats to get stuff like leadership, improved initiative, and so on. I don't know why everyone rags on the fighter so much. I think it's a pretty cool class. Excellent. Simple and to the point. I too wonder why almost everyone seems to have a beef with the fighter... I have yet to see something wrong with the class despite others ramming what they call "facts" down the throats of others and myself... IMO, if you have a problem with the class, fine... "Fix" it as you see fit, then when the fighter is hands down the best class to play, don't come back to tell us all about the problem caused with the "fix" made... Yes, the fighter doesn't have any flashy or superpowerful class abilites, but the total number of feats means they can do more than others, at an earlier level, and better than most... If the class did it all, ther would be no need for the Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, or Monk (a fighter-type class IMO)...
OGRE-MJC 10-22-03, 01:01 PM	Originally posted by april151978 Excellent. Simple and to the point. I too wonder why almost everyone seems to have a beef with the fighter... I have yet to see something wrong with the class despite others ramming what they call "facts" down the throats of others and myself... IMO, if you have a problem with the class, fine... "Fix" it as you see fit, then when the fighter is hands down the best class to play, don't come back to tell us all about the problem caused with the "fix" made... Yes, the fighter doesn't have any flashy or superpowerful class abilites, but the total number of feats means they can do more than others, at an earlier level, and better than most... If the class did it all, ther would be no need for the Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger, or Monk (a fighter-type class IMO)... and how is that "diatribe" any different than the ones that are forcing their opinions down your throat? If you don't think that the fighter needs anything, then just ignore the posts. As someone who thinks there is a problem with the fighter, I also acknowldge that I am not a game designer. I have tried some fixs on the fighter in my games and found them unsatisfactory. I throw the problems that I am having out on the boards and see if someone else has a better idea on how to fix them. On the subject of this thread, I not sure if the fighter needs more combat power, let me correct that, I do think they need more power, but just adding a few special abilities on top seems more like a bandaid than a true "fix" of the problem. I think the problem is in the nature of the feat system. Feats are either weak or very situational. I'm not knocking that, if you made them "better", then the other classes would get too much benefit and leave the fighter in the same place. sorry, I've got to go and I'll finish my thought later.
melkoriii 10-22-03, 01:37 PM	This OB bonus is better then teh Barbarian's Rage. You get more ToHit bonus, More Damage Bonus and dont have the negative affect to AC. PLUS you can opt to get a AC bonus instead. With this there is no reason to take the Barbarian class. This is a broken fix. FOr me, the only problem I have with the Fighter class is the low skill points and almost no class skills. Of cource I dont like any class having less than 4+int per lvl.
ssvegeta555 10-22-03, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by melkoriii This OB bonus is better then teh Barbarian's Rage. You get more ToHit bonus, More Damage Bonus and dont have the negative affect to AC. PLUS you can opt to get a AC bonus instead. With this there is no reason to take the Barbarian class. This is a broken fix. FOr me, the only problem I have with the Fighter class is the low skill points and almost no class skills. Of cource I dont like any class having less than 4+int per lvl. You do make a good point. I dont want to have players ever consider teh Barb if my "fixed" fighter is much better. Originally posted by OGRE-MJC On the subject of this thread, I not sure if the fighter needs more combat power, let me correct that, I do think they need more power, but just adding a few special abilities on top seems more like a bandaid than a true "fix" of the problem. I think the problem is in the nature of the feat system. Feats are either weak or very situational. I'm not knocking that, if you made them "better", then the other classes would get too much benefit and leave the fighter in the same place. I see. I thought teh fighter needed to be fixed in a way that has nothing to do with feats. My other idea was to give a bonus feat taht would help the fighter. (I know he has soo many bonus feats but this idea is still in development right now). I would give the fighter a feat like iron will to help him survive those hard to resist spells, maybe a free exotic pro., lightning reflexes and stuff like that. These will be feats are given and no requirments to meet (well the fighter already has the requirments to those feats, but like I said its still in development). Well back to the drawing board. And thanks for you replies.
OGRE-MJC 10-23-03, 11:25 AM	sorry I didn't get to finish my thought yesterday. You did a good job and I think it would be a good place to start. I've been noticing on the threads that the majority of the arguements have been around two things: Skills and Feats. On the skill side, I think an expanded skill list OR more skill points to effectivly CC should solve that. On the Feat side, I'm acually starting to think the bonus feats ability is what the problem is. The good feats are all so situational. I don't know what other people's luck is like, but the second that I pick Improved Trip, the next five combats will involve centaurs and flying creatures. (exageration, but element of truth in it) I'm thinking something like your special abilities made useable 4 or 5 times a day with the bonus feats cut in half might be a workable solution. Again, you did a good job, I just think that the fighter needs a more complete overhaul. Hope it helps.
melkoriii 10-23-03, 01:30 PM	Originally posted by OGRE-MJC sorry I didn't get to finish my thought yesterday. You did a good job and I think it would be a good place to start. I've been noticing on the threads that the majority of the arguements have been around two things: Skills and Feats. On the skill side, I think an expanded skill list OR more skill points to effectivly CC should solve that. On the Feat side, I'm acually starting to think the bonus feats ability is what the problem is. The good feats are all so situational. I don't know what other people's luck is like, but the second that I pick Improved Trip, the next five combats will involve centaurs and flying creatures. (exageration, but element of truth in it) I'm thinking something like your special abilities made useable 4 or 5 times a day with the bonus feats cut in half might be a workable solution. Again, you did a good job, I just think that the fighter needs a more complete overhaul. Hope it helps. I agree. So far in my expereance, the Fighter Class is used to multi-class for more feats and better HP/BAB (god knows its not for the skills hehehe) I dont know about you but most plyers I know never go all 20 lvls as fighter (excluding PrCls) Giving the fighter 2 or 3 Combat abilities that work in all combats would give them more "staying" power class wise. Funny how if your a Melee character you almost always multi-class Fighter/Rogue Fighter/Cleric (more fighter then cleric) Fighter/Monk But if your a caster you ONLY take PrCls. Seems to me that this is some of the main problems with D&D core classes.
TrueExodite 10-23-03, 04:23 PM	I, for one, also think that Fighters are the weakest fighting class. And, like so many others, I'm here to provide my fix. :) Add profession to the Fighter skill list. Remove Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus. Give the Fighter a special ability that grants bonuses with different weapons similar to the the Rangers Favored Enemy ability. Weapon Specialization Beginning at 1st level a Fighters extensive training with weapons begin to show, in the form of weapon specialization. At 1st level, and again at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter, the Fighter chooses one weapon for which he now is considered specialized in. This specialization gives the Fighter a +1 bonus to hit and damage with the specified weapons and the bonus increases at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter. For example, Redgar the 12th level Fighter has recieved the weapon specialization three times, at 1st, 5th and 10th level, and has chosen Greatsword, Longsword and Composite Longbow as his specialized Weapons. As a 12th level Fighter the bonus to hit and damage is +3 for all three weapons. ... lvl special ability 1 bonus feat, weapon specialization, specialization bonus +1 ... 5 weapon specialization, specialization bonus +2 ... 10 bonus feat, weapon specialization, specialization bonus +3 ... 15 weapon specialization, specialization bonus + ... 20 bonus feat, weapon specilaization, specialization bonus +5 The advantage of having weapon specialization as a Fighter class ability rather than a fea is threefold. The Fighter will actually be the best class at fighting. As they should, considering their utter lack of non-combat abilities. A Fighter will not have to dedicate 4 of his total 11 bonus feats to be almost as good at fighting as a Barbarian with one weapon. Since we remove WS, GWS and GWF as feats we have neatly done away with class-specific feats which are generally a bad idea. I hope you like it.
april151978 10-23-03, 04:30 PM	How about a feat similar to Spell mastery for fighters... Take WF in a number of weapons equal to your Int modifier... You could also do it with WS too... A bit on the overpowering side, but it's your game...
Xorial 10-23-03, 04:36 PM	TrueExodite, that may be a fun way to do it. I posted on another thread just now about treating the weapons like the ranger favored enemy. Have Favored weapon. Just like the favored enemy bonuses, only +1 instaed of +2. You can shift the bonuses around like the ranger. The bonuses are to attack & damage.
ssvegeta555 10-23-03, 07:34 PM	Originally posted by OGRE-MJC sorry I didn't get to finish my thought yesterday. You did a good job and I think it would be a good place to start. I've been noticing on the threads that the majority of the arguements have been around two things: Skills and Feats. On the skill side, I think an expanded skill list OR more skill points to effectivly CC should solve that. On the Feat side, I'm acually starting to think the bonus feats ability is what the problem is. The good feats are all so situational. I don't know what other people's luck is like, but the second that I pick Improved Trip, the next five combats will involve centaurs and flying creatures. (exageration, but element of truth in it) I'm thinking something like your special abilities made useable 4 or 5 times a day with the bonus feats cut in half might be a workable solution. Again, you did a good job, I just think that the fighter needs a more complete overhaul. Hope it helps. Thats a bummer. As a DM I try to make encounters to allow the PC to use its new acuired ability, spell ect. But I'm gald you like the idea. And I agree the fighter needs a complete overhaul. I'm going to revise my BO and maybe do some other stuff that might help to "fix" the fighter. It might take a while. It's a bummer though my D&D inspiration is at a low. I haven't played in 4-5 months. :(
Azar 10-23-03, 11:17 PM	The only time I've met a bad fighter was when we ran a "the 3-core rulebooks only" campaign. Fighters can seriously kick ass, you just have to use splat-books and other rule books. Sword and fist is beautiful, because it...uh...focuses on swords and uh, fists and stuff. If you don't like Sword and Fist, just wait for Complete Warrior (in December, me thinks).
ninjarabbit 10-24-03, 12:23 AM	My little way to help fighters is to give them 4 skill points per level and give them diplomacy, sense motive, any one knowledge of their choice, gather information ,and heal as class skills to give them something to do outside of combat, which in my opinion is the main problem with fighters as well as a reason to put points in wis, int, and cha.
DrakaraGM 10-24-03, 02:05 AM	Here's an idea -- note, I have no idea whether it is in any way, shape or form actually balanced, am just throwing it out for discussion, so don't tell me I'm an idiot, just tell me whether this is perhaps workable or not, balanced or not, etc. Fighter special class feature -- Bonus Attack: A fighter, after his normal single attack or after his full round attack sequence, get one additional attack. This attack is made at an base attack bonus equal to his Fighter BAB only -- additional BAB from any other classes does not apply. Any modifiers to all attacks in the round (such as a penalty to hit from Expertise or TWF or Power attack, and a damage increase from Power Attack) apply normally. Essentially, this would be a class feature that is the exception to the general rule that if you move you can only attack once. Non-fighters just cannot do it -- but a Fighter can. In addition, it makes the fighter's full attack sequence one attack bigger, with a pretty decent attack bonus too, kinda like the 3.5 monk's flurry of blows, but at the tail end of the series instead of the front of the series... This ability could be given to the fighter at some level high enough that non-fighters don't get it just through a few levels of multiclassing -- pick some odd level not divisible by three, where the fighter doesn't get either a bonus feat or a boost in any saves. 7th level perhaps, or 11th? The improtant thing is that nobody can get it by just dipping into fighter class for a couple or 4 levels... This ability is more useful the more levels you have as a fighter -- especially for high level characters -- as every point of Fighter BAB you get is a bonus to hit on this bonus attack, while any BAB gained from any other class does not help this attack. Furthermore, this special ability, without needing to use magic such as Haste, allows a fighter to move and then get two attacks -- his normal one attack, plus his bonus attack. With Spring Attack, a fighter could move, attack normally, attack again with his bonus attack, and then keep moving. Other feats, such as Cleave, would interact normally with the bonus attack as well -- i.e. if the bonus attack took down an opponent, the Cleave could then be made at the same BAB as the bonus attack. At a higher level, perhaps 13th or 17th, i.e. 6 levels after the first ability is gained, the fighter could get a related special ability -- Bonus Attack of Opportunity. Immediately after an attack of opportunity, at most once per round, the fighter could get a bonus attack of opportunity, against the same opponent that triggered the original attack of opportunity. Again, like the initial Bonus Attack ability, the BAB for this bonus attack of opportunity is based on Fighter Level Only -- BAB from any other class doesn't help. The more levels of fighter, the better the bonus attack is. Again, this would be an exception to the general rule that you only get one attack of opportunity per triggering action -- non-fighters cannot do it, but a high level fighter can. Where the non-fighter only sees a single opportunity for an attack, the fighter is so well trained that he can make two attacks to take advantage of a single opportunity, once per round. This only provides a fighter with more combat ability, not any out-of-combat tricks or capabilities, so it won't satisfy those who want more skills or special non-combat abilities. However, as an in-combat special ability, the bonus attack gets the fighter an extra attack every round he is in combat, except of course when he doesn't need an extra attack because his regular attacks took care of all his opponents already. It is a combat ability that can double the number of attacks a move/attack, move/attack type fighter gets, and also adds an extra attack to any full round set of attacks. Assuming all of the fighters BAB comes from fighter levels, the extra attack is gained at full BAB -- the more diluted the fighter levels are with levels of other classes, the less effective the bonus attack is, which adds incentive to keep taking fighter levels. And most importantly, it is not tied to any specific feat chain or weapon type, it is just a generic "I am better at combat than everyone else" type of ability. Comments? Too powerful? Not poweful enough? Gained too early? Not gained early enough? If the levels at which these two abilities are gained is 7th and 13th, then the fighter could also get a similar ability at 19th level -- though I am not sure what would be most appropriate. 11th and 17th levels might be waiting a bit too long for these abilities to provide incentive -- I think perhaps 7th and 13th is the best, get them early enough to be useful, but late enough to keep others from slipping into fighter levels to get the abilities. SO what to do at 19th level? Perhaps the special ability Mettle, normally only gained by members of various prestige classes or the O.A. Sohei? Just some ideas, for non-feat special abilities that are nonetheless combat and/or encounter related...
DJ Sarven 10-24-03, 02:21 AM	I pointed this out on another thread about ftrs. Generally, ppl say that the ftr is disadvantaged because of the lack of high level feat chains. many classes get their trademark powerful abilities in the 16-20th lvl bracket (the best rage bonuses, perfect self, 9th lvl spells, etc.) but the ftr gets... a feat. sure, a feat is great, but there really isn't much that is spectacular or unique to take with that almighty 18th or 20th lvl feat. We solved this easily in our game by allowing certain epic feats as fighter only feats with prereqs of ftr lvl 16, 18 or 20. Thus the ftr can get powerful battle oriented feats a few lvls before other classes could qualify for them (lvl 21st for everyone else). This gave incentive for ppl to take straight ftr lvls (not PrC) because they had abilities that would be unique to them. This house rule is very easily meshed with any game, and adds great flavour to the ftr.
JoAT 10-24-03, 07:52 AM	Originally posted by april151978 How about a feat similar to Spell mastery for fighters... Take WF in a number of weapons equal to your Int modifier... You could also do it with WS too... A bit on the overpowering side, but it's your game... Actually, this is about what we do, only it works slightly diffrently. Every time a fighter selects something from (our expaned) weapon sepc tree (including weapon focus), they gain the feat in a small number of directly related weapons. At the momment, we're trying to convert the tight weapon groups given in various 2e sources, for this purpose, so it's a bit of a pain. Until we've got the groups firmly nailed down, it comes down to any four martial weapons (or, perhaps, any two extoci weapons, though this is not likely), that you can justify as being closely related will gain the benifit of these feats. That's more along the lines of what I'd like to see, in the way of a fighter power up. Rather than giving out bonus feats or abilities, make the feats that they can already gain more useful to them. If I was to give abilites out to them, they would be something along the lines of negating already existing penalties for performing certain tactics, or gaining addtional bonuses for certain tactics. I'd make them much more tactical, rather than just a raw power dump. Say, for instance, a 10th level ability to half any existing penalties for cover or concealment, or allowing them to use any weapon that they are not already skilled in at a reduced penalty... Things like that...
danielinthewolvesden 10-24-03, 12:56 PM	But the basic premise is wrong. Fighter is a strong class, in fact one of the best. Yes- true, they start losing steam when their feat chains run out. But that is later, around 10th level or so, or maybe 16th. Here's the point- you're not really supposed to play a straight fighter. Fighters are made for Prestige classes- with all those feats and high BaB. They can get into more PrC's and faster than just about anyone, and there is plenty of good powerful Prc's for them. And, after 7>10 levels of being a fighter, you have developed a personality and "type" that will fit a certain PrC. (and a hint to some - try the Survivor PrC in Savage Species- very overlooked). Thus, by the time 20th level rolls around, your "fighter" has 7 levels in fighter, 10 in a PrC, and maybe 3 in something else. Those "trademark special abilities" will come form the PrC- and they will be better than anyone elses. Of course you also forget one other thing- survivability until you GET to higher levels. Here the fighter only comes in second to the Cleric. For a 1000gps he can be in full plate, and his HP are great. He also has loads of cool feats. He also can easily afford the "leadership" feat- which can get him his personal bodyguard, or healer. Or- like Mercurywyrm suggested- his very own bard- which is a class no one wants to play, but everyone likes to have in the party. Perfect! I do agree the fighter needs a few more skills, and to some extent this was improved in 3.5 . This is for roleplaying, not power however. But many players use Int as a 'dump stat" for fighters, then come back later and whine about not enough skill points. Sure, if you have an 8 in INT, you're hosed. But- that's your fault- if you are on a "point buy" system resist the silly tempation to buy an 18, and instead get a 12 in Int Wis & Cha. With a 30 pt buy you can have a 16 (upped to an 18 by level 8) a 14 in con, and a 12 in all the others. Too many players would use the same 30 points to buy 18STR, 16Con&12Dex (or the other way around) and have an 8 in everything else. Resist the temptation! Fighters don't need a major fix. He can get something like what our OP wants from several PrC's. I'll bet the new Fighter book (due in Dec?) will have even more cool PrC's.
ssvegeta555 10-24-03, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden I'll bet the new Fighter book (due in Dec?) will have even more cool PrC's. Yup, complete warrior. I've heard it's due november, while another says december. But I've also heard its a splat book for all classes. And its hardcover, and in COLOR! Can't wait to see whats inside though.
Mongoose4937 10-24-03, 03:09 PM	Honestly, I think even a core 20 level fighter is perfectly balanced, but i do admit that it starts to feel like you're just repeating the same thing by level 20. As for most arguments against the fighter and fixes, I give you a few counterarguments: For taking specialization past where it is: Don't. this means the fighter can oust the Barbarian for damage monkey, and that just flat out shouldn't be. Besides, forfieting expertise while raging ends up being more of a disadvantage than people give it credit for. Barbarian deals more damage, Fighter has a higher AC. Special Abilities: I actually feel these go against the flavor of the class. It's designed to be customizable in the extreme, and i believe that more classes should be designed like it. My "fix" for the fighter is simple. Add more feats. Not just more feats, but a handfull of feats that have high prerequisites that only a fighter could feasibly take more than one of. Like this, for example: Sever You are adept at removing limbs and other body parts from their location. Prerequisites: Improved Sunder, Improved Disarm Benefit: You may take a standard action to attempt to disarm a natural attack. First make an attack roll. If you succeed, roll and apply your damage as normal, and have your opponent make a Fort save with a DC equal to your damage dealt, modified by natural and manufactured armor and size (+4 per category over). If you succeed, one natural attack of your opponent's may not be used as the limb, appendage, or tentacle is severed. You must choose the limb to be taken before you make your attack, and you cannot sever a bite attack. Improved Sever You are masterful at quickly disarming your foes in a literal sense. Prerequisites: Sever, BAB +11 Benefit: You may make a sever attempt in place of a normal attack Normal: You make a sever attempt as a standard action. They've got high prerequisites (4 feats and 2 ability scores at 13+), but are cool abilities. I haven't playtested them, but they're still pretty cool. Also, I think making an improved combat expertise (Allows you to go to a -10/+10) would be good. Oh, and I'm salviating at the arrival of The Complete Warrior.
april151978 10-24-03, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden But the basic premise is wrong. Fighter is a strong class, in fact one of the best. Yes- true, they start losing steam when their feat chains run out. But that is later, around 10th level or so, or maybe 16th. Not to come off as rude, but have you or anyone you have know played a fighter strait to say 12th, 16th, or even 20th and beyond?... They don't seem to loose steam to me... Here's the point- you're not really supposed to play a straight fighter. Fighters are made for Prestige classes- with all those feats and high BaB. They can get into more PrC's and faster than just about anyone, and there is plenty of good powerful Prc's for them. And, after 7>10 levels of being a fighter, you have developed a personality and "type" that will fit a certain PrC. (and a hint to some - try the Survivor PrC in Savage Species- very overlooked). Thus, by the time 20th level rolls around, your "fighter" has 7 levels in fighter, 10 in a PrC, and maybe 3 in something else. Those "trademark special abilities" will come form the PrC- and they will be better than anyone elses. While this is true that fighters can get into most PrCs faster than most other classes (unless those requirments are things like caster levels and the such, but a few fighter levels never seems to hurt any character), the fighter was not designed to get into PrCs; it was designed to fight in combat... If your above statement were true, then things like the epic level handbook would not have rules for epic fighters... If you can get into a PrC after 20 levels or less in fighter, there would be no need for levels beyond 20th... Of course you also forget one other thing- survivability until you GET to higher levels. Here the fighter only comes in second to the Cleric. For a 1000gps he can be in full plate, and his HP are great. He also has loads of cool feats. He also can easily afford the "leadership" feat- which can get him his personal bodyguard, or healer. Or- like Mercurywyrm suggested- his very own bard- which is a class no one wants to play, but everyone likes to have in the party. Perfect! I have nothing really to comment about here... True, a bard is usefull, but I have always liked the Marshal since I first saw the class... I do agree the fighter needs a few more skills, and to some extent this was improved in 3.5 . This is for roleplaying, not power however. But many players use Int as a 'dump stat" for fighters, then come back later and whine about not enough skill points. Sure, if you have an 8 in INT, you're hosed. But- that's your fault- if you are on a "point buy" system resist the silly tempation to buy an 18, and instead get a 12 in Int Wis & Cha. With a 30 pt buy you can have a 16 (upped to an 18 by level 8) a 14 in con, and a 12 in all the others. Too many players would use the same 30 points to buy 18STR, 16Con&12Dex (or the other way around) and have an 8 in everything else. Resist the temptation! Int is a dump stat?... I have yet to play a fighter with an Int lower than 13 (Combat Expertise)... The key to building a good fighter, especially if you don't know the world the DM has thrown you into, is to have many options open to you... Yes, I would like to see more skills for the fighter, but what skills would be in fitting with a person who spends most of their time in combat and trainning for combat?... I personaly always try to take the craft skill in something simple but profitable... I once played an elven fighter with an Int of 17... I crafted mighty bows for the entire party (those that could use them), and they continued to make bows of various types on our travels to sell to others and shop owners... Not too profitable at first, but in usually made the difference when I wanted to buy something else... Heck, the DM gave my character a reuptation as a bowmaker to such and extent that people approached me when we went into cities for a bows they could use, and I did this with the standard fighter skill list... One thing I have seen that I like are the variant fighters in Dragon magazine... Cant' remember the number, but there were a few descent ones that fit into certain styles that could be great options for those that seem less than impressed with the fighter...
Xorial 10-24-03, 05:01 PM	Dragon#310 :teach:
ssvegeta555 10-24-03, 05:12 PM	Originally posted by Xorial Dragon#310 :teach: ooh, official fighter varient. Got to see.
boatslayer 10-24-03, 10:14 PM	Wanna rearly simple fix to fighter? Something that pays off at high levels? This might even be worth tossing the bonus feats out. Bob's Fighter variant: Once per day, a fighter (and only a fighter) can add his number of fighter levels to attack and damage. Wanna really kick it up a notch? Variant on the variant: The fighter gains this extrodinary ability due to his total devotion to the study of combat technique. If a fighter multiclasses he loses this ability. Now you'll see a few level 20 fighters. ;)
april151978 10-24-03, 10:20 PM	Originally posted by Xorial Dragon#310 :teach: Thanks Xorial... Have it sitting right here...
Scorpion_Shugenja 10-26-03, 11:44 PM	three points: A: i agree that the fighter is not meant to have a lot of color. in fact, no fix you can come up with could possibly be satisfying. why? the whole concept of the fighter is that it is a generic fighter, a all-around combatant. you cannot add flavor, for it is flavorless. adding a battle orders ability turns it into a master tactician class. adding an extra attack ability makes a skirmisher class, better at hit-and-run than others, etc. you can improve its power, but not its flavor. i see the fighter as a way to pick up a few feats and stuff, and become a better well, fighter. 4 levels, and rogue, ranger, barbarian, or a few of one of those or cleric, and more of fighter. whatever. i would not want to see a level 20 fighter, because that would be flavorless, and you cannot add flavor without destroying the flavor of the class, which is its distinctive *nonflavor* B: if you don't like that, i suggest you Ba: create several variant fighter classes, or Bb: creat more (possibly fighter only feats) or Bc: allow class features, either like the talent trees from d20 modern in place of feats, or possibly allow fighters to gain certain combet powers of other classes, chosen by the character. like a fighter could get the barb's rage, the monk's unarmed damage, the sohei's fury, or whatever. C: the reason they have epic fighters is Ca: they have to give an epic progression for each class, even if it makes no sense to use it. just like, because they allow any multiclass, they must allow Mnk/Drd/Sor/Clrs. it does not mean they intend anyone to PLAY them. Cb: fighter are MUCH spiffed up by epic, as there are many epic feats to both power up and diversify fighters. ps- i would definitely NOT give fighters still more enhanced weapon spec. that is the idea behind the wapon master PrC. not every fighter need be a consummate master of one weapon. they can also be a generalist, trained in basic combat techniques, applicable to any weapon.
haste9 10-31-03, 12:49 PM	Originally posted by TrueExodite I, for one, also think that Fighters are the weakest fighting class. And, like so many others, I'm here to provide my fix. :) Add profession to the Fighter skill list. Remove Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus. Give the Fighter a special ability that grants bonuses with different weapons similar to the the Rangers Favored Enemy ability. Weapon Specialization Beginning at 1st level a Fighters extensive training with weapons begin to show, in the form of weapon specialization. At 1st level, and again at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter, the Fighter chooses one weapon for which he now is considered specialized in. This specialization gives the Fighter a +1 bonus to hit and damage with the specified weapons and the bonus increases at 5th level and every 5th level thereafter. For example, Redgar the 12th level Fighter has recieved the weapon specialization three times, at 1st, 5th and 10th level, and has chosen Greatsword, Longsword and Composite Longbow as his specialized Weapons. As a 12th level Fighter the bonus to hit and damage is +3 for all three weapons. ... lvl special ability 1 bonus feat, weapon specialization, specialization bonus +1 ... 5 weapon specialization, specialization bonus +2 ... 10 bonus feat, weapon specialization, specialization bonus +3 ... 15 weapon specialization, specialization bonus + ... 20 bonus feat, weapon specilaization, specialization bonus +5 The advantage of having weapon specialization as a Fighter class ability rather than a fea is threefold. The Fighter will actually be the best class at fighting. As they should, considering their utter lack of non-combat abilities. A Fighter will not have to dedicate 4 of his total 11 bonus feats to be almost as good at fighting as a Barbarian with one weapon. Since we remove WS, GWS and GWF as feats we have neatly done away with class-specific feats which are generally a bad idea. I hope you like it. I really like this idea!!! Thanks! I think I may try this because I never see anyone go higher than 12th level in fighter after 3.5 now.