A useable Ninja (Please PEACH me) tweaking the abilites to make it useful, not UBER! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A useable Ninja (Please PEACH me) tweaking the abilites to make it useful, not UBER! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Threefists
05-17-07, 10:25 AM Now, I'm all for the Ninja Class, nice to have a stealthy character that can't sneak attack the Wyrm Red Dragon and deal more damage than a equal CR Gold Dragon could do in one round. Trust me, nothing ruins the sense of realism than having a rogue roll all 6's on three consecutive rounds with his/her sneak attacks...

That said, I like the Ninja-Class simply because you could also call it a Monk or Assassin (without the alignment problems), if your game doesn't have a Oriental-themed nation or history.

That said....it hits some walls, specificly the number of Ki power, and the duration of such. Sudden Strike is, to me, what Sneak Attack should have been. Make the Rogue a opportunistic ambusher, not the guy who makes the whole party flank something so he/she can have three rounds of rolling horrendous amounts of D6's across the table.

Thus said, these are three 'variants' the Party has come up with, and I'd like PEACHing for them, if my fellow Gamers would be so kind!

Note: All Variants are considered to use the Ninja Class as the base, with the variant abilities replacing the CORE version. (Please please please let somebody at D&D HQ take notice of these boards? Sometimes your faithful minions do come up with good ideas.....sometimes.....)

Variant A) ToB Variant:
Rather than gaining Ki Power, a ToB Ninja gains access to two of the following Schools, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand or Diamond Mind, and this choice is made at 1st level, and may not be changed thereafter. The ToB Ninja may prepare 2 Maneuvers at first level, increasing the number of Maneuvers available per encounter by 2 every odd level to a maximum of 22 known Maneuvers from any of the three Schools/Styles mentioned above. the ToB Ninja gains one Stance at level 1, and gains additional stances at level 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19.
Has proficiency with all Simple Weapons, Shortbow (and Composite version), Kama, Singham, Short Sword, Kusari-Gama, Blowgun and Shuriken. ToB are not Proficient with any form of armour.
ToB Ninja gains the Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus Feat at level 1

Variant B) Shinobi Variant:
Ki power is equal to the Shinobi's Ninja Level plus the Wisdom Modifier, and may be refreshed by spending 1 minute meditating in quiet, be it a private room, a secluded grotto or simply a quiet table at a inn. Thus, a 5th level Shinobi with Wis 15 would have 7 uses of Ki power per that encounter, assuming he/she had the opportunity to meditate before the encounter.
Ghost Step requires the use of one Ki point to use to become Invisible, and the effect lasts for one round +1/2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier. A Shinobi may only remain Ethereal for 1 round per use of Ki point. This remains a Supernatural effect, but ends the moment the Shinobi Ninja performs any action that would normally end a Invisible effect, such as attacking a enemy etc etc (See the Invisibility spell for exact details).
Ki Dodge also lasts for one round + 1.2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier, as does Greater Ki Dodge.
Speed Climb: By expending one Ki point, a Shinobi may double his/her base land speed, following the rules of Speed Climb, when using Speed Climb, or may use the ability as per normal.
Climb like the Spider (This ability is gained at level 7, along with Speed Climb): A Shinobi may expend one Ki point to gain the ability to stick to a vertical or diagonal surface and not fall. This effect lasts for one single round, and may be used in the next round to use Speed Climb to reach a horizontal surface higher up a wall or cliff etc.
A Shinobi gains Weapon Proficiency with Tiger Claws and Fukimi-bari, but loses proficiency with nunchaku and crossbows.

Variant C) Assassin Variant:
At 1st level, a Assassin Ninja gains the Favoured Enemy Class Ability of a Ranger, but with a subtle difference. By meditating for 5 minutes at the beginning of the day, the Assassin Ninja steels him/herself to hunt and kill one specific type of creature. The Assassin Ninja's Favoured Enemy can only be a Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider [Native] or Giant, as the Assassin Ninja was trained solely to end such lives. This ability scales in power at the same rate as a Ranger's Favoured Ability does, but the Assassin Ninja never gains additional Favoured Enemies. The ability to change the target of his or her training every day prohibits broadening his or her variety of targets, and this ability does not stack with similar abilities.
Ki power is equal to the Assassin Ninja Level plus the Wisdom Modifier, and may be refreshed by spending 1 minute meditating in quiet, be it a private room, a secluded grotto or simply a quiet table at a inn. Thus, a 5th level Assassin with Wis 15 would have 7 uses of Ki power per that encounter, assuming he/she had the opportunity to meditate before the encounter.
Ghost Step requires the use of one Ki point to use to become Invisible, and the effect lasts for one round +1/2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier. A Shinobi may only remain Ethereal for 1 round per use of Ki point. This remains a Supernatural effect, but ends the moment the Shinobi Ninja performs any action that would normally end a Invisible effect, such as attacking a enemy etc etc (See the Invisibility spell for exact details).
Ki Dodge also lasts for one round + 1.2 the Assassin's Class Level + the Assassin's Wisdom Modifier, as does Greater Ki Dodge.

The Assassin Ninja is Proficient with the Kukri, Longsword, Tiger Claws, Chakram and Fukimi-bari, but loses proficiency with Hand Crossbow, all Simple Weapons except Light Crossbow, Club, Quarterstaff and Dagger.

So, any flaws within the variants you can see? I'm personally leaning towards the Shinobi over the other three, simply for ease of use and the regeneration of Ki power, but the ToB variant might be slightly over-powering the Rogue in some cases. PEACH 'em people!
Threefists
05-20-07, 08:02 PM :bump: Maybe something all three variants could use would be a +5 to land speed/base speed at level 7 and 14?
Threefists
05-22-07, 07:32 PM Okay, play-tested the ToB variant....scratch that....if you wanted to use Maneuvers better to just go a Swordsage. Loses the Sudden Strike damage (boo hoo hoo), but the additional armour class, hit-points etc more than balances that out.

On to the Shinobi variant. I'm also a firm believer that with the advent of ToB, uses of Stunning Fist should also be 'per encounter' and not 'per day'.

((Please note all 'playtesting' involves the 'recharge' magic feature from the "Unearthed Arcana" manual))
Threefists
05-28-07, 06:16 AM :bump:

Alright, playtested the 'Assassin' variant of the Ninja...and fooled around with using the variant class features from one of the latest Dragon Mags (I don't have it on hand atm, sorry!) and it also worked well, especially in Humanoid/Giant heavy campaigns, made the Rogue have to work twice as hard to keep up, and not just in combat.

Now, could I ask some other people to play-test the Shinobi and Assassin variants of the Ninja? I'm fairly confident that they aren't over-powered or UnBelievably and Excruciatingly Retarded, but I am a bit baised in my views (I made the variants, after all), so if somebody could take a bite out of their game time to do some ROLL-playing with them, it would be greatly appreciated!

:bump:
Threefists
06-01-07, 12:15 PM :bump: *waits patiently*
ArochanoX
06-01-07, 01:38 PM Well the amount of being invisible is horrendous especially it's a condition: invisible - not the spell invisibility. So attacking doesn't end it. Otherwise the shinobi variant (poor name by the way) seems a good start. The number of ki points should be balanced carefully per ecounter.. Just tossing an idea: what if the ninja used his ki-points per ecounter to add d6:s to his melee damage? As a swift action perhaps? But yes, the shinobi variant should be taken into construction.
Threefists
06-01-07, 08:04 PM Weeeeeell....the Ninja is designed (as I see it, but I could, and often am, wrong on these things) to be a less 'flank and gib the crap out of it' class than the rogue, and be more of a stealthy sort. Besides, I was working under the assumption that the instant the Ninja performed a attack action, the invisibility effect ended just like the spell. Sorry, I'll have to adjust the post, but thank you very very much for pointing out that particular abuse!
Threefists
06-03-07, 03:25 AM :bump: Anyone else? Please?
teshen
06-04-07, 06:23 PM The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed...

That being said, I think the refreshing mechanic is interesting, and I do like the idea of having other things to spend Ki points on, like the limited spiderclimb effect.

There were one or two Dragon magazines a while back that gave feats for the ninja, most being spell-like abilities at the cost of a ki point or two, and one had two alternative ghost step options... I don't remember which ones, though.

Do you think the ability to treat weapons he weilds as ghost touch weapons as long as he has not exhausted his ki point pool would be too good?
Marcotic
06-05-07, 01:16 PM The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed...

(Some good stuff here removed to prevent clutter)

Do you think the ability to treat weapons he weilds as ghost touch weapons as long as he has not exhausted his ki point pool would be too good?

When you point it out, perhaps a way to negate the effects of those spells at some level may be a balanced option.

i don't, infact since few creatures are etherial, I'd say it would have little affect on the class either way
Threefists
06-08-07, 11:24 AM The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed...

Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action, though it only lasts for one round per point of Ki used...effectively a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility can actually out-'Invisible' a Ninja of the same level. That means the Ninja can go invisible at the start of her round, make a Sudden Strike, but unforunately the way the DM and I read the rules on Invisibility and Flat-footed, that means only the Ninja's first attack in her routine grants this Sudden Strike damage unless the enemy is already flat-footed.

Thus my variants give that little bit extra 'oomph' to the Ghost Step by making it last rounds(s) rather than a single attack. A Ninja using the Class Features above can sneak away while invisible to cover, and start sniping once 30 feet away with a shortbow or hand-crossbow to get the Sudden Strike damage, and make the enemy come to her, thus limiting the enemy's to a single attack, if that.

To the subject of Ghost Touch weapons, under the recharge method, a Ninja can spend a single use of her Ki to give a weapon she is holding the ability to strike incorporeal of etheral creatures as if they were corporeal. While a Ninja is Etherial herself, she may use this ability to strike corporeal creatures. I left this unchanged because otherwise it turns the Ninja into something more powerful than the Rogue, rather than on equal footing.
Damon_Caskey
06-08-07, 11:50 AM Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action.

Uhm. No.

You need to read again. You do not become invisible as the spell. You become invisible, nothing more, nothing less. It is an effect unless stated otherwise, and the text is very clear that you remain invisible for one round.

This is the way implied rule sets works, and even if it wasn't, Custserv has confirmed it time and again (yes I know Custserv sucks, but I think it's fair to go with them when they are confirming what the book clearly says and people keep misinterpreting).

The only thing fuzzy is whether or not you can remain invisible for extra rounds by consuming another point of Ki (Custserv says no, the ninja must reactivate the effect and thus "blinks", and so does the general consensus).

I'm not sure why you want to houserule nerf a primary class feature and then turn around and try to boost the class. Seems a bit contradictory. It is your game though, so it's your business.

DC
Threefists
06-08-07, 08:24 PM Alright Damon_Caskey, exactly how do we work out that it's just a effect? It's obviously a Supernatural effect, and since the Ninja in question merely becomes invisible, meaning only one sudden strike attack per use of Ghost Step.

The way I read that, it means the Ninja gains a supernatural Invisibility effect for one round. That means it bypasses spell-resistance, but is negated in a anti-magic field. True Seeing, Glitterdust, throwing a pouch of flour into the air etc counter it. That's why the above variants gained Invisibility over several rounds.

Also, can't see what you mean by nerfing it. Making the ability last even longer is a bonus for the Ninja, not a nerf.
heretic888
06-08-07, 08:33 PM Alright Damon_Caskey, exactly how do we work out that it's just a effect?

Because that's what the text actually says. At no point in the description is the term "as the spell Invisibility" ever used. It is a supernatural effect, not a spell or a spell-like ability.

It's obviously a Supernatural effect, and since the Ninja in question merely becomes invisible, meaning only one sudden strike attack per use of Ghost Step.

You are conflating the effect of invisibility with the spell called Invisibility. You need to brush up on your DMG rules.

The way I read that, it means the Ninja gains a supernatural Invisibility effect for one round.

Again, the spell Invisibility is not the same as the invisibility effect.
Damon_Caskey
06-09-07, 12:21 AM And by thinking it is (like Invisibility as the spell), you are unintentionally nerfing an already weak class before ever bringing it here.

DC
danielinthewolvesden
06-09-07, 04:22 AM What Ninja really needs is Evasion at a lower level.
Threefists
06-09-07, 10:51 AM Okay, obviously need to work on my wording skills (Is that even proper english?) Adjusting posts to suit comments.

Thanks guys...we're one step closer!
Iarmeister
06-09-07, 01:32 PM Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action, though it only lasts for one round per point of Ki used...effectively a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility can actually out-'Invisible' a Ninja of the same level. That means the Ninja can go invisible at the start of her round, make a Sudden Strike, but unforunately the way the DM and I read the rules on Invisibility and Flat-footed, that means only the Ninja's first attack in her routine grants this Sudden Strike damage unless the enemy is already flat-footed.

This has been answered in the FAQ: Ninja Ghost Step = Greater Invisibility for 1 full round. This means, the ninja gets a full-round of Sudden Strike damage vs opponents w/o beneift of dexterity bonus to AC, including any iterative strikes or bonus attacks from TWF.

I suggest downloading the updated 3.5 FAQ, if you haven't done so already, as it will answer a lot of questions I see posted on these boards.

EDIT: Regarding your initial question about what to change to make the ninja 'better'...I'm not sure I fully understand what you're unsatisfied with about the ninja. It seems you like the Sudden Strike feature vs. sneak attack (I do, too, and that makes us wierd on these boards), but don't like the ghost step abilities. Rather, certain aspects about ghost step abilities, like duration and effect. I would also recommend taking a read through Complete Scoundrel, as there are feats that augment the ninja ghost step ability, and these might be an answer to your querry.
Threefists
06-10-07, 01:03 AM Alright, thanks Iarmeister, I wasn't aware there'd been a web-update for the Ninja...and the worst thing is that I lack Complete Scoundrel, since the store I go to to buy my manuals is not only a three hour drive away (Costing me close to $80 in fuel!), but charges anywhere from $65-$85 dollars for a single manual....:cry:
Iarmeister
06-10-07, 05:08 AM Doh! That's a grip of $$ for fuel. Does Amazon.com deliver to your area?? ;)
Damon_Caskey
06-10-07, 10:37 AM Last (and only) book I bought was PHB 3.0 at $29.00. Sounds like your place is a complete rip.

DC
Threefists
06-11-07, 06:22 AM @ Damon_Caskey: I know, but it's the only actual D&D store within 24 hours drive of where I live...trust me, I know they're gouging, they know they're gouging, but there's precious little I can do about it!

@ Iarmeister: No....I've tried several times, but they don't deliever to my area :weep:
Alyss
06-11-07, 06:54 AM I like the shinobi Ninja, as will my player (who plays a Ninja). So: rinse!

However, I am too lazy to add the other stuff on...so I'll keep the recharge and bugger the rest.

My thanks :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Threefists 05-17-07, 10:25 AM	Now, I'm all for the Ninja Class, nice to have a stealthy character that can't sneak attack the Wyrm Red Dragon and deal more damage than a equal CR Gold Dragon could do in one round. Trust me, nothing ruins the sense of realism than having a rogue roll all 6's on three consecutive rounds with his/her sneak attacks... That said, I like the Ninja-Class simply because you could also call it a Monk or Assassin (without the alignment problems), if your game doesn't have a Oriental-themed nation or history. That said....it hits some walls, specificly the number of Ki power, and the duration of such. Sudden Strike is, to me, what Sneak Attack should have been. Make the Rogue a opportunistic ambusher, not the guy who makes the whole party flank something so he/she can have three rounds of rolling horrendous amounts of D6's across the table. Thus said, these are three 'variants' the Party has come up with, and I'd like PEACHing for them, if my fellow Gamers would be so kind! Note: All Variants are considered to use the Ninja Class as the base, with the variant abilities replacing the CORE version. (Please please please let somebody at D&D HQ take notice of these boards? Sometimes your faithful minions do come up with good ideas.....sometimes.....) Variant A) ToB Variant: Rather than gaining Ki Power, a ToB Ninja gains access to two of the following Schools, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand or Diamond Mind, and this choice is made at 1st level, and may not be changed thereafter. The ToB Ninja may prepare 2 Maneuvers at first level, increasing the number of Maneuvers available per encounter by 2 every odd level to a maximum of 22 known Maneuvers from any of the three Schools/Styles mentioned above. the ToB Ninja gains one Stance at level 1, and gains additional stances at level 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19. Has proficiency with all Simple Weapons, Shortbow (and Composite version), Kama, Singham, Short Sword, Kusari-Gama, Blowgun and Shuriken. ToB are not Proficient with any form of armour. ToB Ninja gains the Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus Feat at level 1 Variant B) Shinobi Variant: Ki power is equal to the Shinobi's Ninja Level plus the Wisdom Modifier, and may be refreshed by spending 1 minute meditating in quiet, be it a private room, a secluded grotto or simply a quiet table at a inn. Thus, a 5th level Shinobi with Wis 15 would have 7 uses of Ki power per that encounter, assuming he/she had the opportunity to meditate before the encounter. Ghost Step requires the use of one Ki point to use to become Invisible, and the effect lasts for one round +1/2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier. A Shinobi may only remain Ethereal for 1 round per use of Ki point. This remains a Supernatural effect, but ends the moment the Shinobi Ninja performs any action that would normally end a Invisible effect, such as attacking a enemy etc etc (See the Invisibility spell for exact details). Ki Dodge also lasts for one round + 1.2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier, as does Greater Ki Dodge. Speed Climb: By expending one Ki point, a Shinobi may double his/her base land speed, following the rules of Speed Climb, when using Speed Climb, or may use the ability as per normal. Climb like the Spider (This ability is gained at level 7, along with Speed Climb): A Shinobi may expend one Ki point to gain the ability to stick to a vertical or diagonal surface and not fall. This effect lasts for one single round, and may be used in the next round to use Speed Climb to reach a horizontal surface higher up a wall or cliff etc. A Shinobi gains Weapon Proficiency with Tiger Claws and Fukimi-bari, but loses proficiency with nunchaku and crossbows. Variant C) Assassin Variant: At 1st level, a Assassin Ninja gains the Favoured Enemy Class Ability of a Ranger, but with a subtle difference. By meditating for 5 minutes at the beginning of the day, the Assassin Ninja steels him/herself to hunt and kill one specific type of creature. The Assassin Ninja's Favoured Enemy can only be a Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider [Native] or Giant, as the Assassin Ninja was trained solely to end such lives. This ability scales in power at the same rate as a Ranger's Favoured Ability does, but the Assassin Ninja never gains additional Favoured Enemies. The ability to change the target of his or her training every day prohibits broadening his or her variety of targets, and this ability does not stack with similar abilities. Ki power is equal to the Assassin Ninja Level plus the Wisdom Modifier, and may be refreshed by spending 1 minute meditating in quiet, be it a private room, a secluded grotto or simply a quiet table at a inn. Thus, a 5th level Assassin with Wis 15 would have 7 uses of Ki power per that encounter, assuming he/she had the opportunity to meditate before the encounter. Ghost Step requires the use of one Ki point to use to become Invisible, and the effect lasts for one round +1/2 the Shinobi's Class Level + the Shinobi's Wisdom Modifier. A Shinobi may only remain Ethereal for 1 round per use of Ki point. This remains a Supernatural effect, but ends the moment the Shinobi Ninja performs any action that would normally end a Invisible effect, such as attacking a enemy etc etc (See the Invisibility spell for exact details). Ki Dodge also lasts for one round + 1.2 the Assassin's Class Level + the Assassin's Wisdom Modifier, as does Greater Ki Dodge. The Assassin Ninja is Proficient with the Kukri, Longsword, Tiger Claws, Chakram and Fukimi-bari, but loses proficiency with Hand Crossbow, all Simple Weapons except Light Crossbow, Club, Quarterstaff and Dagger. So, any flaws within the variants you can see? I'm personally leaning towards the Shinobi over the other three, simply for ease of use and the regeneration of Ki power, but the ToB variant might be slightly over-powering the Rogue in some cases. PEACH 'em people!
Threefists 05-20-07, 08:02 PM	:bump: Maybe something all three variants could use would be a +5 to land speed/base speed at level 7 and 14?
Threefists 05-22-07, 07:32 PM	Okay, play-tested the ToB variant....scratch that....if you wanted to use Maneuvers better to just go a Swordsage. Loses the Sudden Strike damage (boo hoo hoo), but the additional armour class, hit-points etc more than balances that out. On to the Shinobi variant. I'm also a firm believer that with the advent of ToB, uses of Stunning Fist should also be 'per encounter' and not 'per day'. ((Please note all 'playtesting' involves the 'recharge' magic feature from the "Unearthed Arcana" manual))
Threefists 05-28-07, 06:16 AM	:bump: Alright, playtested the 'Assassin' variant of the Ninja...and fooled around with using the variant class features from one of the latest Dragon Mags (I don't have it on hand atm, sorry!) and it also worked well, especially in Humanoid/Giant heavy campaigns, made the Rogue have to work twice as hard to keep up, and not just in combat. Now, could I ask some other people to play-test the Shinobi and Assassin variants of the Ninja? I'm fairly confident that they aren't over-powered or UnBelievably and Excruciatingly Retarded, but I am a bit baised in my views (I made the variants, after all), so if somebody could take a bite out of their game time to do some ROLL-playing with them, it would be greatly appreciated! :bump:
Threefists 06-01-07, 12:15 PM	:bump: waits patiently
ArochanoX 06-01-07, 01:38 PM	Well the amount of being invisible is horrendous especially it's a condition: invisible - not the spell invisibility. So attacking doesn't end it. Otherwise the shinobi variant (poor name by the way) seems a good start. The number of ki points should be balanced carefully per ecounter.. Just tossing an idea: what if the ninja used his ki-points per ecounter to add d6:s to his melee damage? As a swift action perhaps? But yes, the shinobi variant should be taken into construction.
Threefists 06-01-07, 08:04 PM	Weeeeeell....the Ninja is designed (as I see it, but I could, and often am, wrong on these things) to be a less 'flank and gib the crap out of it' class than the rogue, and be more of a stealthy sort. Besides, I was working under the assumption that the instant the Ninja performed a attack action, the invisibility effect ended just like the spell. Sorry, I'll have to adjust the post, but thank you very very much for pointing out that particular abuse!
Threefists 06-03-07, 03:25 AM	:bump: Anyone else? Please?
teshen 06-04-07, 06:23 PM	The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed... That being said, I think the refreshing mechanic is interesting, and I do like the idea of having other things to spend Ki points on, like the limited spiderclimb effect. There were one or two Dragon magazines a while back that gave feats for the ninja, most being spell-like abilities at the cost of a ki point or two, and one had two alternative ghost step options... I don't remember which ones, though. Do you think the ability to treat weapons he weilds as ghost touch weapons as long as he has not exhausted his ki point pool would be too good?
Marcotic 06-05-07, 01:16 PM	The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed... (Some good stuff here removed to prevent clutter) Do you think the ability to treat weapons he weilds as ghost touch weapons as long as he has not exhausted his ki point pool would be too good? When you point it out, perhaps a way to negate the effects of those spells at some level may be a balanced option. i don't, infact since few creatures are etherial, I'd say it would have little affect on the class either way
Threefists 06-08-07, 11:24 AM	The ninja's ability to turn invisible is pretty much balanced against it's limits... sudden strike only works when the opponent(s) is(are) flatfooted. That's why the ghost step works like greater invisiblity for one round... to try to get that sudden strike in. Since you can get see invisiblity and glitterdust and other effects that limit the use of invisiblity, it becomes less useful as time goes by and you have to look for another way to make opponents flat footed... Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action, though it only lasts for one round per point of Ki used...effectively a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility can actually out-'Invisible' a Ninja of the same level. That means the Ninja can go invisible at the start of her round, make a Sudden Strike, but unforunately the way the DM and I read the rules on Invisibility and Flat-footed, that means only the Ninja's first attack in her routine grants this Sudden Strike damage unless the enemy is already flat-footed. Thus my variants give that little bit extra 'oomph' to the Ghost Step by making it last rounds(s) rather than a single attack. A Ninja using the Class Features above can sneak away while invisible to cover, and start sniping once 30 feet away with a shortbow or hand-crossbow to get the Sudden Strike damage, and make the enemy come to her, thus limiting the enemy's to a single attack, if that. To the subject of Ghost Touch weapons, under the recharge method, a Ninja can spend a single use of her Ki to give a weapon she is holding the ability to strike incorporeal of etheral creatures as if they were corporeal. While a Ninja is Etherial herself, she may use this ability to strike corporeal creatures. I left this unchanged because otherwise it turns the Ninja into something more powerful than the Rogue, rather than on equal footing.
Damon_Caskey 06-08-07, 11:50 AM	Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action. Uhm. No. You need to read again. You do not become invisible as the spell. You become invisible, nothing more, nothing less. It is an effect unless stated otherwise, and the text is very clear that you remain invisible for one round. This is the way implied rule sets works, and even if it wasn't, Custserv has confirmed it time and again (yes I know Custserv sucks, but I think it's fair to go with them when they are confirming what the book clearly says and people keep misinterpreting). The only thing fuzzy is whether or not you can remain invisible for extra rounds by consuming another point of Ki (Custserv says no, the ninja must reactivate the effect and thus "blinks", and so does the general consensus). I'm not sure why you want to houserule nerf a primary class feature and then turn around and try to boost the class. Seems a bit contradictory. It is your game though, so it's your business. DC
Threefists 06-08-07, 08:24 PM	Alright Damon_Caskey, exactly how do we work out that it's just a effect? It's obviously a Supernatural effect, and since the Ninja in question merely becomes invisible, meaning only one sudden strike attack per use of Ghost Step. The way I read that, it means the Ninja gains a supernatural Invisibility effect for one round. That means it bypasses spell-resistance, but is negated in a anti-magic field. True Seeing, Glitterdust, throwing a pouch of flour into the air etc counter it. That's why the above variants gained Invisibility over several rounds. Also, can't see what you mean by nerfing it. Making the ability last even longer is a bonus for the Ninja, not a nerf.
heretic888 06-08-07, 08:33 PM	Alright Damon_Caskey, exactly how do we work out that it's just a effect? Because that's what the text actually says. At no point in the description is the term "as the spell Invisibility" ever used. It is a supernatural effect, not a spell or a spell-like ability. It's obviously a Supernatural effect, and since the Ninja in question merely becomes invisible, meaning only one sudden strike attack per use of Ghost Step. You are conflating the effect of invisibility with the spell called Invisibility. You need to brush up on your DMG rules. The way I read that, it means the Ninja gains a supernatural Invisibility effect for one round. Again, the spell Invisibility is not the same as the invisibility effect.
Damon_Caskey 06-09-07, 12:21 AM	And by thinking it is (like Invisibility as the spell), you are unintentionally nerfing an already weak class before ever bringing it here. DC
danielinthewolvesden 06-09-07, 04:22 AM	What Ninja really needs is Evasion at a lower level.
Threefists 06-09-07, 10:51 AM	Okay, obviously need to work on my wording skills (Is that even proper english?) Adjusting posts to suit comments. Thanks guys...we're one step closer!
Iarmeister 06-09-07, 01:32 PM	Well, if you'll read the actual description of Ghost Step in the Complete Adventurer, the Ghost Step is a supernatural equivilent to Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility, and can be done as a Swift action, though it only lasts for one round per point of Ki used...effectively a Rogue with a Ring of Invisibility can actually out-'Invisible' a Ninja of the same level. That means the Ninja can go invisible at the start of her round, make a Sudden Strike, but unforunately the way the DM and I read the rules on Invisibility and Flat-footed, that means only the Ninja's first attack in her routine grants this Sudden Strike damage unless the enemy is already flat-footed. This has been answered in the FAQ: Ninja Ghost Step = Greater Invisibility for 1 full round. This means, the ninja gets a full-round of Sudden Strike damage vs opponents w/o beneift of dexterity bonus to AC, including any iterative strikes or bonus attacks from TWF. I suggest downloading the updated 3.5 FAQ, if you haven't done so already, as it will answer a lot of questions I see posted on these boards. EDIT: Regarding your initial question about what to change to make the ninja 'better'...I'm not sure I fully understand what you're unsatisfied with about the ninja. It seems you like the Sudden Strike feature vs. sneak attack (I do, too, and that makes us wierd on these boards), but don't like the ghost step abilities. Rather, certain aspects about ghost step abilities, like duration and effect. I would also recommend taking a read through Complete Scoundrel, as there are feats that augment the ninja ghost step ability, and these might be an answer to your querry.
Threefists 06-10-07, 01:03 AM	Alright, thanks Iarmeister, I wasn't aware there'd been a web-update for the Ninja...and the worst thing is that I lack Complete Scoundrel, since the store I go to to buy my manuals is not only a three hour drive away (Costing me close to $80 in fuel!), but charges anywhere from $65-$85 dollars for a single manual....:cry:
Iarmeister 06-10-07, 05:08 AM	Doh! That's a grip of $$ for fuel. Does Amazon.com deliver to your area?? ;)
Damon_Caskey 06-10-07, 10:37 AM	Last (and only) book I bought was PHB 3.0 at $29.00. Sounds like your place is a complete rip. DC
Threefists 06-11-07, 06:22 AM	@ Damon_Caskey: I know, but it's the only actual D&D store within 24 hours drive of where I live...trust me, I know they're gouging, they know they're gouging, but there's precious little I can do about it! @ Iarmeister: No....I've tried several times, but they don't deliever to my area :weep:
Alyss 06-11-07, 06:54 AM	I like the shinobi Ninja, as will my player (who plays a Ninja). So: rinse! However, I am too lazy to add the other stuff on...so I'll keep the recharge and bugger the rest. My thanks :)