Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xavier00 04-03-06, 11:14 PM	Is there any type of class that would be suited for making a character who wields weapons telekinetically? If so, could you point me in the direction as to what book it's in? If not, does anyone have any tips for creating a class around this theme? Thanks in advance...
Lawrence 04-04-06, 01:26 AM	Mage of the Unseen Hand is in Complete Warrior...otherwise it's in complete arcane (pretty sure it's warrior though). It's a 5 level class, and one of the abilities is the option to use telekinesis to wield a weapon for you.
Zsasz_Diedne 04-04-06, 01:59 AM	It's Complete Warrior, and yeah MoTUH is exactly what your looking for.
solbergb 04-04-06, 01:17 PM	You can do what the OP is describing without needing to spend 9-10 levels in half-BAB classes to get telekenesis. If you start at level 15, the master of the unseen hand is ok. But all you really need for this concept is whirling blade, which is a bard2 or sor/wiz 2 spell, lets you translate your int or cha into strength and whack on multiple opponents. A fairly traditional fighter/wiz(or sorc)/eldritch knight approach works pretty well, and if whirling blade is your main thing, you don't need more than 14 str if your int or cha are high and likely to go higher. (14 str for power attack and to full attack on a normal target without using the spell). If you go this route, you'll get "true" TK at level 11-12, but will have been tossing weapons around telekenetically from about level 4. "Helpers" for whirling blade: weapon capsule retainers (complete adventurer) flame blade (SC) or critical strike (SC) wraithstrike (SC) - if your DM allows it, this is right on broken, although watch out for somatic components quickdraw (whirling blade and many swift spell helpers, including wraithstrike have somatic components, which can make two-handed weapon useawkward) still spell (see "quickdraw") sculpt spell (hitting everyone in a line with your axe is good. hitting everyone in a sphere or cone is better. power attack (cause it is *power attack* the premier melee feat) arcane strike (you'll have lots of spell slots to convert, and it'll affect everybody in the area) bardsong (and inspirational boost, and maybe masterwork instruments from CV) - anything that adds to both to-hit and damage is nice improved invis or improved blink (opponents flatfooted = easier to hit)
periscope 04-06-06, 12:33 AM	I heard of a class in Community3e.com that could do that. I think it was called a psycomancer.
Votan 04-06-06, 01:44 AM	But all you really need for this concept is whirling blade, which is a bard2 or sor/wiz 2 spell, lets you translate your int or cha into strength and whack on multiple opponents. A fairly traditional fighter/wiz(or sorc)/eldritch knight approach works pretty well, and if whirling blade is your main thing, you don't need more than 14 str if your int or cha are high and likely to go higher. (14 str for power attack and to full attack on a normal target without using the spell). If you go this route, why not go Bard? More hit points, better BAB, better able to stand in combt if needed, better saves and skills, a music ability that goes well with being in the back rank and he can prepare for Sublime Chord to pick up telekinesis if need. Just a thought.
solbergb 04-06-06, 12:45 PM	Mainly because I have a personal beef with Sublime Chord and blot it out of my mind whenever I think of a bard build :) It's one of those things that is so good, you have to argue with people if you want your bard to do anything else. Yeah, a bard is good, because inspire courage/compentence both help, the higher BAB helps and the larger weapon proficiencies help. Mostly you need to have a plan to cope with the miniscule number of spell slots, which can put a damper on your plan to primarily fight with "no hands". Lyric spell+extra bardsong or arcane prep+pearls of power can be a solution (the latter though only really with whirling blade).
Votan 04-06-06, 08:07 PM	Mainly because I have a personal beef with Sublime Chord and blot it out of my mind whenever I think of a bard build :) It's one of those things that is so good, you have to argue with people if you want your bard to do anything else. Yeah, a bard is good, because inspire courage/compentence both help, the higher BAB helps and the larger weapon proficiencies help. Mostly you need to have a plan to cope with the miniscule number of spell slots, which can put a damper on your plan to primarily fight with "no hands". Lyric spell+extra bardsong or arcane prep+pearls of power can be a solution (the latter though only really with whirling blade). Sublime chord is the class that finally makes the Bard co-equal to other classes at high levels. It is not essential but it is a really cool class. I got the Complete Arcane as a gift from my gaming group when I was hospitalized for 3 months and so I remember it fondly. But the Sublime Chord was my favorite item in the book. In particular: You need Knowledge (Arcane) 13 ranks (a serious sorcerer gets this anyway) Listen 13 ranks (solid skill) Perform (any) 10 ranks (this is a bard after all) Profession (astrologer) 6 ranks (this is an actual penalty) Spellcraft 6 ranks (again, useful skill) Spells: 3rd level arcane Special: Bardic music Nobody else is getting into this but it builds naturally for a Bard. You lag a sorcerer with spell volume and acquisition but it is a very nice class. Why not use it as the natural capstone to a Bard build??? In this case, it makes getting Telekinesis at level 11 easy.
solbergb 04-06-06, 08:18 PM	Mostly because I don't like the blurring of roles between bard and sorcerer. If they were supposed to have the same spell list, have the same spell list from level 1. If there weren't, don't give them a PRC that gives away the store. I'd prefer a bardic PRC that kept the bard progression but did more interesting things with the bardsongs or alternately kept most of the song/spell progression but gave bonus fighter-type feats (similar to hospitalar). Virtuoso doesn't cut it, and while seeker of the song does some cool things, and warchanter does other cool things, one caster-class that just kept ordinary vanilla bard spell progression while expanding on the song options would have been nice. Instead we got sublime chord. *grump* For all those arcanists who wanted multiclass bard/sorcerers out there. :( However for this particular build, I can't argue. Bard is better for the whirling blade application, and sublime chord is the right way to go from that to TK, which is also necessary for the high level application of this build (and maybe even to master of the unseen hand, eventually)
Votan 04-06-06, 08:33 PM	Mostly because I don't like the blurring of roles between bard and sorcerer. If they were supposed to have the same spell list, have the same spell list from level 1. If there weren't, don't give them a PRC that gives away the store. I'd prefer a bardic PRC that kept the bard progression but did more interesting things with the bardsongs or alternately kept most of the song/spell progression but gave bonus fighter-type feats (similar to hospitalar). Virtuoso doesn't cut it, and while seeker of the song does some cool things, and warchanter does other cool things, one caster-class that just kept ordinary vanilla bard spell progression while expanding on the song options would have been nice. Instead we got sublime chord. *grump* For all those arcanists who wanted multiclass bard/sorcerers out there. :( What I like about the class is that it lets you play a pure bard for 10 levels and then switch into something that enables you not to be rendered obselete by the existance of ninth level spells. The pure bard lacks punch at levels 15-20 or so. Interestingly enough, I think that the Bard has a better spell list than the sorcerer with this combination. Also, I think that (as a DM) I'd rules lawyer around ebing able to continue the sublime chord progression with another prestige class. That is the only thing that is done with this cool prestige class that I dislike. However for this particular build, I can't argue. Bard is better for the whirling blade application, and sublime chord is the right way to go from that to TK, which is also necessary for the high level application of this build (and maybe even to master of the unseen hand, eventually) Yep. The good news is that such a heavily themed build isn't going to have issues with power gaming for looking at Sublime Chord. :)
Zsasz_Diedne 04-06-06, 09:11 PM	The problem with Bard/Whirling Blade is that whirling Blade can only attack in a straight line, has a 60 ft. range and does not allow for multiple attacks. MoTUH gives you a full BaB with the weapon your wielding telekinetically at a base range 400 feet +40 a level, as well as adding your primary casting stat as a to-hit modifier. It might be a bit harder to achieve, but I think less costly, e.g. your list of "helpers". It may be "9 levels in a half-BaB class" but it's 9 levels of Wizard or Sorc, you have some flexability methinks. It gets a little rough as you enter the PrC, but only a little, and I concede it's a concept better served by a party with another primary caster in it, but not utterly necessary. Sublime Chord/MoTUH, hmmmm...
Tempest Stormwind 04-06-06, 09:42 PM	I should note that the Master of the Unseen Hand uses its caster level in place of base attack bonus. And, as an example, Wizard 16 / Master of the Unseen Hand 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24 for Telekinesis BEFORE any magic items or other boosts. Thus, an epic base attack bonus. He gets this well before the fighters do, and FAR and away long before any character hits that point (he hits Base Attack 20 at level 18, two levels before fighter types. He hits base attack 24 at level 20, while fighters have to wait until level 27 or 28 to get this (I forget which).). You can also Chain Reach telekinesis onto multiple weapons, thus keeping up to 24 weapons in the air. All full-attacking at a +24 base attack bonus (plus your casting stat in place of Strength).
Votan 04-06-06, 09:48 PM	The problem with Bard/Whirling Blade is that whirling Blade can only attack in a straight line, has a 60 ft. range and does not allow for multiple attacks. MoTUH gives you a full BaB with the weapon your wielding telekinetically at a base range 400 feet +40 a level, as well as adding your primary casting stat as a to-hit modifier. It might be a bit harder to achieve, but I think less costly, e.g. your list of "helpers". It may be "9 levels in a half-BaB class" but it's 9 levels of Wizard or Sorc, you have some flexability methinks. It gets a little rough as you enter the PrC, but only a little, and I concede it's a concept better served by a party with another primary caster in it, but not utterly necessary. Sublime Chord/MoTUH, hmmmm... It's better than that. Bard 8/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sublime Chord 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 has a BAB of +13 (at 16th level) and definitely beats a Sorcerer 10/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Sorcerer 1 with a BAB of +10 and a lot fewer hit points . . .
Lawrence 04-06-06, 09:55 PM	Does it matter if the MoTUH that's near pure or pure caster uses caster level + level bonuses to determine BAB with the weapon, and otherwise keeps the rest of his abilities? Not entirely sure why we're arguing styles when that's more of an optimizing thing...
jaelis 04-06-06, 10:32 PM	I should note that the Master of the Unseen Hand uses its caster level in place of base attack bonus. And, as an example, Wizard 16 / Master of the Unseen Hand 4 with Practiced Spellcaster has a caster level of 24 for Telekinesis BEFORE any magic items or other boosts. Thus, an epic base attack bonus. He gets this well before the fighters do, and FAR and away long before any character hits that point (he hits Base Attack 20 at level 18, two levels before fighter types. He hits base attack 24 at level 20, while fighters have to wait until level 27 or 28 to get this (I forget which).). I don't think Practised Spellcaster would help here, since it can't boost your caster level above your hit dice.
Votan 04-06-06, 11:11 PM	While Master of the Unseen Hand is a good class, I've always been mixed about it. The class' power is all about amplifying telekinesis. The Sorcerer given as a sample character highlights this (Sorcerer 12/Master of the Unseen Hand 5). He has 6 5th level spells per day and 4 6th level spells per day (as a 17th level character). If he expends all 5/6th level slots on TK then he has 10 amplified spells per day. This is good but it competes with 9th level spells. The duration of the TK is nice but the pinnacle ability ends TK instantly. Ouch! This sorcerer has 3 spells known of 5th level or higher (Telekinesis, Teleport, Bigby's Forceful Hand). Of these spells he'll use TK and teleport but the 6th level spell cast at 12th level isn't going to cut it at 17th level -- these slots are obviously used for TK. A Sorcerer 17 with the same charisma score would have: 7 5th, 7 6th, 6 7th, 5 8th and 3 9th level spells per day for a total of 28 spells of level 5 plus (which can be selected from a pool of 13 spells instead of three spells). Consider a list of: Telekinesis, Teleport, Reciprocal Gyre, Wall of Force, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate, Contingency, Otiliuke's Greater Dispeling Screen, Reverse Gravity, Greater Scrying, Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Shapechange. What would you rather have??? Is the enhancement to telekinesis worth the loss of so many good high level spells??? On the other hand, the class is pretty cool for a monster with telekinesis as a spell-like ability.
Zsasz_Diedne 04-06-06, 11:45 PM	That's why you make a Wizard, not a Sorc. If you know this is going to be your "thing" you plan for it, while making sure your still as viable as possible. Signature Spell, Extra Slot and Innate Spell are your friends. Scrolls of TK are your friends, Rings of TK are your friends, Ioun Stones...you get it. Yes your trading the hideously giddy wonder of 9th level nastiness for the giggly fun of throwing people through barns and using people like ballistas. It's a matter of what you think is fun, having done both I can say each has it's merits, and in epic levels it really ceases to be that much of an issue. It's better than that. Bard 8/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sublime Chord 1/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 has a BAB of +13 (at 16th level) and definitely beats a Sorcerer 10/Master of the Unseen Hand 5/Sorcerer 1 with a BAB of +10 and a lot fewer hit points . . . Your assumptions of how I would build a MoTuH amuse me. A Wizard 10/Arcane Devotee 1/MoTUH 5 has a BaB of +16 with Telekinesis, let's assume a meager Int of 18, that's +20 to hit, Full Attack TK is giving you 4 attacks a round with your weapon of choice at +20/+15/+10/+5, or you can just chuck 15 items of your liking at something, each at +20 to hit, adding your primary casting stat to the damage as if it were a Str bonus. I'm fond of Orc Shotputs. Enlarge Spell/Reach of the Holy gives you a range of 2000 feet, not real worried about my low HP at that range. On top of that I'm an 11th level Arcane caster, so I can still do nifty little things like Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate and Hold Monster to name a few. Naturally you'll want Practiced Spellcaster. You're right though, I won't be as good with Whirling Blade... @Tempest Jaelis is right, you can't exceed your HD, but you'll still have a Full BaB with TK, which does not suck in the least. I like that Chain Reach idea though, adds a new dimensions to possible future builds of Phusillade :D @Lawrence The argument is that your better served going Bard/Whirling Blade, because you'll have more HP and a better BaB. This is where I weigh in on the other side of the coin, because BaB is meaningless to a MoTUH, his caster level is his BaB, making him the equivalent of a Fighter or Barbarian of his level in that respect. Granted you won't always be in nice open spaces, but I'd feel only marginally more comfortable in tight fireball formations and enclosed melees with a Bard than with a caster. The trick there is to be a two or three trick pony, as TK can't save you from everything. I further point out that the MoTUH gets more mileage out of TK than anyone else would with WB, since he can sustain TK and WB is instantaneous. IMO TK is more versatile and more easily customized, and thus if someone asks about a TK weapon wielder I do not hesitate to recommend this class, which uses, you know, TK. After all that he still has access to the WB option, he just won't be as accurate, but it's a definite lift on the road to MoTUH.
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-06, 12:23 AM	I don't think Practised Spellcaster would help here, since it can't boost your caster level above your hit dice. It doesn't matter, actually. MotUH doesn't raise your caster level at all, so the example above is a 16th level caster with 20 HD. Practiced Spellcaster raises this to 20. No questions. MotUH has a class feature that lets levels in it stack with existing caster levels (in this case, the 20) when casting Telekinesis. That's how it works. And it does. I'm an experienced optimizer. I wouldn't make a mistake like that.
Vaelan 04-07-06, 01:01 AM	I don't think Practised Spellcaster would help here, since it can't boost your caster level above your hit dice. It is a matter of applying the two features in a specific order. There really aren't any official rules for this, but I would rule that Practiced Spellcaster is applied after caster levels gained from class levels and before caster levels gained from abilities or items, such as the caster levels gained from the MotUH's Improved Caster Level ability.
Zsasz_Diedne 04-07-06, 01:20 AM	<re reads Practiced Spellcaster and MotUH>....Muahahahaha!
Tempest Stormwind 04-07-06, 01:48 AM	It is a matter of applying the two features in a specific order. There really aren't any official rules for this, but I would rule that Practiced Spellcaster is applied after caster levels gained from class levels and before caster levels gained from abilities or items, such as the caster levels gained from the MotUH's Improved Caster Level ability. Not so. MotUH says that levels in it stack with your existing caster level for Telekinesis. This is essentially a bonus to caster level when you cast TK, though it isn't actually a bonus. Practiced Spellcaster raises your caster level for everything up to 4 (max your HD). Everything, mind you, including Telekinesis. You cast Telekinesis as a 20th level wizard already, without the feature. The feature stacks with this. Check the text again. The only reason this won't work is if your DM says it won't. And I hear that stops a lot of things.
Votan 04-07-06, 08:59 AM	Not so. MotUH says that levels in it stack with your existing caster level for Telekinesis. This is essentially a bonus to caster level when you cast TK, though it isn't actually a bonus. Practiced Spellcaster raises your caster level for everything up to 4 (max your HD). Everything, mind you, including Telekinesis. You cast Telekinesis as a 20th level wizard already, without the feature. The feature stacks with this. Check the text again. The only reason this won't work is if your DM says it won't. And I hear that stops a lot of things. I agree that this seems to work via RAW. It's true that you can read the read the text differently but that leads to endless debates. In particular, the argument about how to read specific words as technical or descriptive leads to endless (insoluable debates). My favorite are things like : can a divine crusader gain a domain in the same way as a Druid does? what happens when a warmage gets 10 levels of rainbow servant? can a druid 4/wizard3/arcane hierophant 10 wildshape? does psychic reformation affect multiple class levels at a time when augmented? You have to read the text in the same strange way that stops so many other good ideas to make this fail.
Votan 04-07-06, 09:02 AM	Your assumptions of how I would build a MoTuH amuse me. A Wizard 10/Arcane Devotee 1/MoTUH 5 has a BaB of +16 with Telekinesis, let's assume a meager Int of 18, that's +20 to hit, Full Attack TK is giving you 4 attacks a round with your weapon of choice at +20/+15/+10/+5, or you can just chuck 15 items of your liking at something, each at +20 to hit, adding your primary casting stat to the damage as if it were a Str bonus. I'm fond of Orc Shotputs. Enlarge Spell/Reach of the Holy gives you a range of 2000 feet, not real worried about my low HP at that range. On top of that I'm an 11th level Arcane caster, so I can still do nifty little things like Baleful Polymorph, Disintegrate and Hold Monster to name a few. Naturally you'll want Practiced Spellcaster. By the by, that was the WotC sample character (an objective example) compared to a vanilla sorcerer. In so far as optimization with other classes is included the sorcerer is also going to be thinking about the same. If a FR class like Arcane Devotee is included, then the Sorcerer is probably also an incantrix . . . It's true that the class doesn't completely suck but it does seem to drop below the power of a full caster . . .
Zsasz_Diedne 04-07-06, 12:08 PM	I never argued that it didn't. You lose 5 caster levels, a hard hit to a wizard, potentially devastating for a sorcerer, if you consider yourself a caster, which when playing that PrC, I do not. A MoTUH is a godlike ranged combatant who just happens to know a bit of magic, at least this is the mindset I take when playing one. This also the reason I said it works best with another, actual full-progression caster in the group. If your playing one and think your the primary caster (pre-epic anyway), you're deluding yourself. In the process of hijacking this thread, and yes, we have hijacked it, we've forgotten that the OP asked for a telekinetic weapon wielder, he didn't specify full casting or really any conditions at all. MoTUH fits his request to a T, without the need for fancy, costly and feat intensive tricks to make a decent low-level spell formidable, which is what I see WB as being. Now if he comes back and asks for something that can reach full caster progression and/or hold it's own in close quarter combat, it's a different thing. You did indeed cite the example build, my comment was that a Wizard serves the class better, an opinion formed almost immediately after reading the class. The build I was challenging was your Bard/Barb/Fighter/SC/MoTUH.
solbergb 04-07-06, 01:21 PM	I will remind everyone that not all campaigns start at level 15. The Master of unseen hand wiz/sor builds may accomplish his vision, but only if your campaign starts at level 10. The various bard builds accomplish it starting from level 4. If my vision is to do telekenetic weapons as a signature trait, I'd want it as soon as possible. I'd also take mage hand or unseen servant or something in earlier levels to simulate imperfect control of the main ability. Sculpt spell helps a lot to make whirling blade more flexible. Master of the Unseen Hand isn't going to be seen as a downside for this character. He's actually more of an archer type with support spells than an arcanist. And yes, properly supported with "helper" spells, class abilities and equipment, TK all by itself is a VERY powerful ability in the 10-20 game. It compares favorably with optomized archer damage vs most targets, and requires less cash to achieve. It can also switch to touch attacks (splash weapons) for high AC targets or for "DR I don't have it" enemies (such as holy water on DR good...2d4+bardsongx15 = 135 points of damage..) and he has plenty of party support abilities for stuff TK is totally ineffectual against (assuming that a tk grapple, trip, bull rush or disarm won't help, violent thrust isn't the only option)
Votan 04-07-06, 03:37 PM	I never argued that it didn't. You lose 5 caster levels, a hard hit to a wizard, potentially devastating for a sorcerer, if you consider yourself a caster, which when playing that PrC, I do not. A MoTUH is a godlike ranged combatant who just happens to know a bit of magic, at least this is the mindset I take when playing one. This also the reason I said it works best with another, actual full-progression caster in the group. If your playing one and think your the primary caster (pre-epic anyway), you're deluding yourself. In the process of hijacking this thread, and yes, we have hijacked it, we've forgotten that the OP asked for a telekinetic weapon wielder, he didn't specify full casting or really any conditions at all. MoTUH fits his request to a T, without the need for fancy, costly and feat intensive tricks to make a decent low-level spell formidable, which is what I see WB as being. Now if he comes back and asks for something that can reach full caster progression and/or hold it's own in close quarter combat, it's a different thing. You did indeed cite the example build, my comment was that a Wizard serves the class better, an opinion formed almost immediately after reading the class. The build I was challenging was your Bard/Barb/Fighter/SC/MoTUH. The awkwardness here is playing and desgining a full caster (wizard) for 9 to 10 levels followed by jumping into something else completely. It's not an insoluable problem but it leads to some complex questions with feats and so forth. The build that I mentioned was designed around making the caster a bit more survivable so the levels without spells would hurt less. It's a bit counterintuitive to see hwo to build a class that is a pure arcane caster for so logn and then stops focusing on spells . . .
grrrrrr 04-07-06, 04:32 PM	If we're talking high level design here, wizard plus Unseen Hand plus Archmage. Use the archmage to get multiple uses of telekinesis as an SLA. I've always like the Unseen Hand, but never played it. there's something cool about imagining a gnome or halfling with this class (think Yoda: little guy, big power). maybe even something smaller like a pixie. If a DM will let you, perhaps you could use a monster class with this ability as a base for the class.
Vaelan 04-07-06, 07:12 PM	Tempest Stormwind, you seem to be under the impression that I disagree with you. I don't know how you came to this conclusion, but you're mistaken. I agree that it would have to work the way you outline in a strictly by-the-books perspective, otherwise Practiced Spellcaster just plain wouldn't work when paired with bonuses to caster level. Personally, I would rule that Practiced Spellcaster would only make your general caster level 20 as its intent is to make multiclass spellcasters more viable and a double-boost to Telekinesis definitely doesn't fall under that intention, but that isn't terribly relevant.