A Weaponsmaster, Core, I hate you. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Weaponsmaster, Core, I hate you. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NeueRegel
02-23-05, 03:52 AM I'm going to start this, my first post, with stating that I hate you all. Every one of you demon-worshipping wiccan loving, computer geek spawn of this generation that has know clue that a #2 pencil is not a magic item. (And I'm chuckling at the elite of you that are lol'ing at that, having missed the typo!)

Okay, young'n's... For those of you that have a clue who Garet Jax was... (the rest of you can die at the hands of the half-orcs that your fathers were, goddess bless their bongs...)

I submit this character class as an NPC only. I would suggest that she would be unique to the campaign, mayhaps "born this way". You can't have everyone running around like this, afterall. Who would have invented armor or "thinking"? (Don't get me started, I have stepchildren that don't know where Ohio is.)

For the 4 of you in North America, the 2 of you in Europe, and the one of you in Wisconsin, I submit the following core class: Based on a ranger build, but equally a monk, with a dash of "get-the-f*ck-out-of-the-way!"...

(Oh, I forgot: I'm bloody sick of seeing, "Hello! Your registration is complete!! The system does shows that you've never made a post? Don't be shy - Here's a great place to start. Say 'Hello' to the community and share a couple of things with us if you'd like - you don't have to though. You will however continue to see this message until you post for the first time somewhere on the boards.")

Weaponsmaster

Alignment: Any.

Hit Dice: d8.

Class Skills

The weaponmaster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Chr), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). {You need only add in Craft &/or Profession if you feel threatened by not being able to do any of the above in real life}. {Note: "Typing" is not a skill". Not even if you have even once keyed "BRB"}.

The Weaponsmaster uses the combat and saving throws chart of a Ranger.

(I have a nice chart worked out, but computers suck).

I was going to do/make a long explanation of my rationales for how the armor class bonus is based on intelligence and combat expertise, and how I was tired of characters forced into roles of "favorite" weapons, and armor types, etc, but I'm now into my fifth version of word2003 and sixth version of "I hate you all", and I'm going to type this stuff in order, because all computers suck. Suffice it to say, that the weaponsmaster is has just an edge on combat above monks, in the charts, but she'll never be divine...

(I forgot, seventh rum&coke).

If you want cohesive print-versions with nice graphs and all, please mail me @ windshear@peoplepc.com and ask. I'll be happy to oblige, in Terry Brook's name. If he wants royalties, have him mail me, and I'll direct him to you.

Anyways, it goes like this:

Level:

1: Double Weapon Fighting
2: CS: Weapon Focus (all, melee only)
3: Uncanny Dodge
4: Evasion
5:
6: CS: Weapon Specialization (all, melee only)
7: Improved Uncanny Dodge
8: Fast Movement (+10 ft)
9:
10: Improved Evasion
11: CS: Improved Critical (all, melee only)
12:
13: Defensive Roll (1/day)
14: Fast Movement (+20 ft)
15:
16:
17: Freedom of Movement (sans 'water')
18:
19:
20: Fast Movement (+30 ft)

AC bonus chart goes:
1: 1
2: 1
3: 1
4: 2
5: 2
6: 2
7: 2
8: 3
9: 3
10: 3
11: 3
12: 4
13: 4
14: 4
15: 4
16: 5
17: 5
18: 5
19: 5
20: 6

(Did I mention that I hate computers, microsoft, formats, tables, and anything that doesn't have an eraser that I can chew on?).

Class Features:

All of the following are class features of the weaponsmaster.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A weaponsmaster is proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons. Additionally at first level, she is treated as if having Two Weapon Fighting with any double-weapon, but not with two weapons; This bonus ‘ability/proficiency’ is not to be confused with or traded with the full ‘feat’. (The feat may be taken separately, of course). She is not proficient in the use of any type of armor or shield, and loses all abilities related to AC, dodge, evasion, and movement if so clad, or if bearing more than a light load. (At any level).

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the weaponsmaster adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a weaponsmaster gains a +1 bonus to AC at 1st level. This bonus increases with level advancement, as shown on the chart.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the weaponsmaster is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Fast Movement (Ex): Carrying a medium or heavy load negates this extra speed.

Combat Style (Ex): The weaponmaster’s proficiency in all weapons is absolute, but her mastery is in melee combat. Her Focus, Specialization, and Improved Critical feats apply to any weapon, but only when in melee use. Only normal proficiency applies to a thrown dagger or spear, for instance, the same one(s) she was just using to special effect in melee. The feats Focus and Improved Critical may be taken separately by the weaponsmaster, as normal, for any weapon; the bonuses do not stack. The feat Specialization remains the purview of the fighter class, other than as granted here.

Freedom of Movement (Ex): Exactly as per the spell, the weaponsmaster has become nearly impossible to restrain in combat, by magical or mundane means. Unlike the spell, the magical ability to use slashing or bludgeoning weapons underwater is not granted.

Ahhhhh... sigh.... :))))) I feel the waves of heart-attacks from here! I can sleep content now...

But give it a real-time minute, friends... yeah, I know, it seems like I just gave 50 feats away for free... all those focuses and specializations and improved criticals and all that!!! But REALLY... THINK ABOUT THIS: How many weapons can *YOUR* character hold in one round? What really got given away?.... *grin*.

Remember: Think outside of the Box. Eat outside of the Bun. Draw on the other side of the paper, don't try to stretch it, but make a picture that tells a story. Please do drive inside the lines. You idiots.

Next time: Why wives do not make good familiars.

NeueRegel

(I'm actually serious about anybody that want's to correspond, it's WindShear@peoplepc.com , until you say anything I don't like.)
Thief of Always
02-23-05, 04:19 AM Yo, why you gotta hate? I don't know what you intended with that rediuclous preface, but you catch more flies with honey, or some nonsense. I'd suggest cleaning this up and removing all the mean spirited text, complaints about computers, off-color jokes, and comments about how drunk you are.

But I digress...

BAB of a fighter, two good saves, tumble/spot/listen class skills, evasion, AC buffs, UD, and versatility in weapon selection and use. It doesn't really seem really unbalanced, but it also doesn't seem like it fills any niche that needs to be filled. Rainer Maria Rilke once said that the best art comes from necessity; I'd like to think D&D classes are the same way. This basically looks like a FTR/ROG with some movement buffs and a PRC that gives you weapon selection and the ability to apply weapon-specific feats to all weapons. If I were you, I'd just squish all of the versatility stuff into a 5 level PRC.
Stado
02-23-05, 04:34 AM You're a very scary person... otherwise, nice, though not necessarily balanced, class. In truth, all my characters have only ever wielded a single weapon, be it a one-handed, two-handed, or double weapon, never dual weapons (excluding the unarmed attacks of a monk). So in other words: I'd never take this class, ever. I'm a fan of specialization, being too varied is being too plain in my opinion. Of course then again, I can see some people who could actually have a use for this class and can thus commend it. The ability to fight well with any weapon is quite the talent, and it's agreeable that you shouldn't have everyone running around as one of these.
NeueRegel
02-23-05, 04:34 AM I can live with all of what you said Thief, I think. Off-colour, though? I'm tired, but I actually don't drink, some of that was while I was messing with my 17-year-old stepson.

In all game-ness, I think I'm in balance. I don't want to "squish" anything, that in itself sounds like unfairness. I'm bouncing this off you outsiders before I hit my players with it. (They hate that, but ya know... 4 dentists recommend having a tooth pulled when it yells too loudly...)

NeueRegel
NeueRegel
02-23-05, 04:45 AM Okay, Thief, Stado; fix my class; how do I make "THE FIGHTER TO GET AWAY FROM THE MATERIAL SPECIALIZATIONS", without being a monk, with enough draw that he or she is viable? Garet Jax? Red Sonja? Blade? Etc?
colm_l
02-23-05, 04:57 AM :rofl:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~rogermw/ADnD/

or is the resemblance merely chance?

Is the #2 pencil the one that draws maps or takes notes?
NeueRegel
02-23-05, 04:57 AM *smirk*. I got caught in the trap of wanting to play the enemy. Bad DM! BAD!
Thief of Always
02-23-05, 04:58 AM Okay, I don't think you are in a place to demand two of your now fellow forumers [who can be nice and intelligent people, despite whatever you've said] should fix your class, but I told you how I would change it. And I don't know exactly who this "Gater Jax" person is, but I assume weaponmaster is a just a title expressing his martial prowess. The only way you are really going to take the draw away from weapon-favoritism is to remove the weapon-specific feats.
Will Brandiman
02-23-05, 05:04 AM Ahh, Garet Jax. I knew him well. In fact I made up a Weapon Master class back in 1e days just so I could play someone like him. It sucked. But then, I was only 12 and didn't even know what a Munchkin was back then. Turned out it was me.
Neeek
02-23-05, 05:09 AM If you are going for Garet Jax, shouldn't you make it, you know, much better?
Nyferto
02-23-05, 06:42 AM Sword of Shannara series?

alright... so take it out at range and they're completely screwed? With no armour or shields, and a very poor ranged ability (if you bother). I don't see how this is really a weapon master.

Not only that but it suffers slightly from MAD.
angryman
02-23-05, 08:33 AM :tiphat: So surly...hehe. You're funny. Your class is cool, too. Angry, angry man. Hooray for drunks!
ShadowDragoon
02-23-05, 10:13 AM He's a lowly troller, plain and simple. Lowest of the low. Even lower than spammers. I hate people like you. You give n00bs in general a bad name. Granted, some deserve it, but not all. And it's the shame you represent which personifies that stereotype. Shame on you. SHAME!!
Nyferto
02-23-05, 12:12 PM Responding to flamatory posts with more flames will just get you banned, and he could be being Ironic.
NeueRegel
02-23-05, 01:36 PM For the record, aside from being more than a little angry with Word3000, which I never have bothered to learn to use, I was trolling only a little. I've found that some inflammatory irony does *indeed* often get more people to pay attention than the proverbial *honey*. *)

I'll be around.

NeueRegel

PS: I tried the chat rooms last night too, but they don't seem to work. I guess I don't know the room-names?
ShadowDragoon
02-23-05, 01:44 PM A little hint? Never try to use irony in posts. People don't get it. It's turned friendships sour for me many a time.
Stado
02-23-05, 10:37 PM Personally, I don't have the fainted clue as to how to fix your class. As I said, I'd never take this class and so I can't put much effort into something I'm not entirely enthusiastic about; and again, that doesn't mean it's a bad class, because it actually quite sensible, it's just that it not balanced and that's the problem.

And ShadowDragoon, not to seem rude or anything, but the irony was all too obvious. Sorry.
Encard
02-23-05, 11:20 PM Additionally at first level, she is treated as if having Two Weapon Fighting with any double-weapon, but not with two weapons; This bonus ‘ability/proficiency’ is not to be confused with or traded with the full ‘feat’. (The feat may be taken separately, of course).
Hmm... I'm not quite clear on what you mean here. Are you simply emphasizing that the character only gets the TWF feat in relation to double weapons, or are you saying that this thing they get doesn't count as a virtual feat for other things that have TWF as a prerequisite?

Hmm... I'm having a hard time noticing anything else really specific to point out. I think the class might be somewhat underpowered, personally, but then again I thin I tend to lean toward the higher end of the scale in determining balanced. Hmm... You might want to consider giving it a few bonus feats, I think, but I'm honestly not quite certain.

If you want to further divorce this from specific weapons, you might want to consider giving them some sort of Malleable Weapon Form ability that lets them change any weapon they're using (or some special bonded weapon(s) they have or such) into any other weapon while keeping the same magical abilities. This would, of course, inject a fair bit of magic into the class. The real problem, though, is that certain weapons are just better than others, particularly with certain types of builds. Weapon versitility is usually not needed, and when it is a backup weapon or two will usually do the trick. I don't think you can totally eliminate that without making all weapons have exactly the same damage/threat/crit/etc, which would make the world rather dull...

Hmm... What about some sort of multiple-weapon-type attack combo chain of abilities? As in, when the character attacks first with weapon x and then with weapon y, the enemy suffers such-and-such special effect. On the other hand, if the character attacks with weapon x and then weapon c and then weapon z, the enemy instead suffers this-and-that special effect. You get the picture, I'm sure. This would probably require a Quick Sheath ability being added to the class...

I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but it's an idea.

And ShadowDragoon, not to seem rude or anything, but the irony was all too obvious. Sorry.
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree...
bookwurm
02-24-05, 09:54 AM not bad, i really like it and it seems to go with the Garet Jax theme (probably one of my favorite fantasy characters :smirk: one badass dude). at first i thought of it as overpowered, but it really isn't. pretty good class.

P.S. just a suggestion, but tone down on your rants man. you can really **** people of with that. my mom is wiccan so i guess you really struck a nerve there. just think, what if someone was saying that to you. you wouldn't appriciate it much, would you?
NeueRegel
02-24-05, 12:17 PM Sorry to offend bookwurm ;) I'm wiccan too; Where do you think I knew to use the rhetoric insults from? Because I have heard them all directed towards myself! I take it with a grain of salt and a chuckle, myself, often almost every day. :)

NeueRegel

Encard: Correct about double-weapon fighting; it is not the feat two-weapon fighting, thus you could not later invent "improved double-weapon fighting", et al; The bonus was more a final quirk to add on to "proficient with all weapons, simple/martial/exotic/double... just to be able to claim to be able to use every weapon. The weaponsmaster could choose his feats/level to excel at two-weapon fighting, or towards archery feats, like a Ranger, or whatever else the player envisions; I wanted to steer away from heavy-handedly steering the player like the Ranger does. My npc character took all the 3.5 prerequisites leading up to Whirlwind attack, for instance, with improved initiative and power attack thrown in.
bookwurm
02-25-05, 11:44 AM It's alright we're cool. just have't had my head on right for the past few days(i blame this weather. hotcoldhotcold its killing my allergies)

you know i actually didnt think this many people were into the Sword of Shannara series. It's my favorite series and Garet Jax is my favorite person in it. its pretty cool to see a Prc that really goes with him.
Nyferto
02-25-05, 12:10 PM He's only alive for 1 book, unless he's somehow resurected.

Anyway, there's little to suggest he'd ignore ranged weapons, and even less to suggest he's not much more than a Ranger/Fighter or possible just a Fighter.
NeueRegel
02-25-05, 01:33 PM Nyferto: Correct, he's alive for his role in the one book only.

I never said that the weaponsmaster class would ignore ranged weapons in any way; she is proficient in *all* and *every* weapon. I did suggest that her "mastery" was in melee combat. Part of the rationale behind her "Improved Movement", is to get her to her target in less time than normal, lessening the missile attacks against her, and "getting down to business".

As far as Garet Jax, specifically: I have to state that in the 20 or so years that we've been playing, we've always played very low-magic item campaigns; We might gain about 3 items/character, ever. And we certainly couldn't go and have them made, for mere gold! *gasp*.

In other words: no bracers of armor, no rings of protection, etc can be expected to come our way. Now, to want to play a character like Garet Jax, you have to look at him in this light:

He did not wear armor;
He did not possess in magic items, of any kind. He starts the story with a quarterstaff, a shortsword, and a knife (dagger);
He did not display any spellcasting ability of any kind;

He did, by dint of skill and skill alone, :

Know the melee combat use of all weapons, including unarmed combat*, as the gnome Slanter relates in one story against three pike-men; I also recall mention of him training men in the southland, dwarves in the eastland, and elves (in archery!) in the westland. (I can't find the reference to that last, this minute, it'll bug me now til I re-find it).

Almost never get hit, literally "dancing" through the tentacles of the Kraken, picking up a discarded pike on the fly, and using it to drive the creature back into the depths; In fact, the only time you see him take damage is in his final battle with the supernatural Jachyra;

So, to play a non-magicked-out character of the school of combat, "Don't be in the way of whatever's coming at you", I developed what I did.

Had the game made Uncanny Dodge, Evasion feats, and had the game not made Combat Expertise such an impossible trade-off, 1:1, You're right, the weaponsmaster could have been "just a fighter".

*For the same reasons that I didn't want to force a ranger-type TWF or Archery weapon style down the player's throat, I left this out too, leaving it up to the player to decide to take such feats if he/she likes, or dip into the monk class, or whatever.

NeueRegel
NeueRegel
02-25-05, 01:45 PM PS: (Reply to myself/everybody)

I did try to keep the class balanced. I sat down with the Ranger chart in front of me, and tried to replace skills/feats/class abilities, one for one. I originally replaced the Fave Enemies with AC bonuses; The Weapon Styles with the weapon feats, etc. I then looked at rogues, monks, and rangers for what levels they got Uncanny, Evasion, and Improved~, and re-sorted them.
I looked at the ranger's spell ability, and simply discarded it, first because it didn't fit, second so that I could say "I did for balance", and finally because the weaponsmaster is intelligence-based, not wisdom.

Then things just go a bit more streamlined, after about 10 sheets of paper.

:)

NeueRegel

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 02-23-05, 03:52 AM	I'm going to start this, my first post, with stating that I hate you all. Every one of you demon-worshipping wiccan loving, computer geek spawn of this generation that has know clue that a #2 pencil is not a magic item. (And I'm chuckling at the elite of you that are lol'ing at that, having missed the typo!) Okay, young'n's... For those of you that have a clue who Garet Jax was... (the rest of you can die at the hands of the half-orcs that your fathers were, goddess bless their bongs...) I submit this character class as an NPC only. I would suggest that she would be unique to the campaign, mayhaps "born this way". You can't have everyone running around like this, afterall. Who would have invented armor or "thinking"? (Don't get me started, I have stepchildren that don't know where Ohio is.) For the 4 of you in North America, the 2 of you in Europe, and the one of you in Wisconsin, I submit the following core class: Based on a ranger build, but equally a monk, with a dash of "get-the-fck-out-of-the-way!"... (Oh, I forgot: I'm bloody sick of seeing, "Hello! Your registration is complete!! The system does shows that you've never made a post? Don't be shy - Here's a great place to start. Say 'Hello' to the community and share a couple of things with us if you'd like - you don't have to though. You will however continue to see this message until you post for the first time somewhere on the boards.") Weaponsmaster Alignment: Any. Hit Dice: d8. Class Skills The weaponmaster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Chr), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). {You need only add in Craft &/or Profession if you feel threatened by not being able to do any of the above in real life}. {Note: "Typing" is not a skill". Not even if you have even once keyed "BRB"}. The Weaponsmaster uses the combat and saving throws chart of a Ranger. (I have a nice chart worked out, but computers suck). I was going to do/make a long explanation of my rationales for how the armor class bonus is based on intelligence and combat expertise, and how I was tired of characters forced into roles of "favorite" weapons, and armor types, etc, but I'm now into my fifth version of word2003 and sixth version of "I hate you all", and I'm going to type this stuff in order, because all computers suck. Suffice it to say, that the weaponsmaster is has just an edge on combat above monks, in the charts, but she'll never be divine... (I forgot, seventh rum&coke). If you want cohesive print-versions with nice graphs and all, please mail me @ windshear@peoplepc.com and ask. I'll be happy to oblige, in Terry Brook's name. If he wants royalties, have him mail me, and I'll direct him to you. Anyways, it goes like this: Level: 1: Double Weapon Fighting 2: CS: Weapon Focus (all, melee only) 3: Uncanny Dodge 4: Evasion 5: 6: CS: Weapon Specialization (all, melee only) 7: Improved Uncanny Dodge 8: Fast Movement (+10 ft) 9: 10: Improved Evasion 11: CS: Improved Critical (all, melee only) 12: 13: Defensive Roll (1/day) 14: Fast Movement (+20 ft) 15: 16: 17: Freedom of Movement (sans 'water') 18: 19: 20: Fast Movement (+30 ft) AC bonus chart goes: 1: 1 2: 1 3: 1 4: 2 5: 2 6: 2 7: 2 8: 3 9: 3 10: 3 11: 3 12: 4 13: 4 14: 4 15: 4 16: 5 17: 5 18: 5 19: 5 20: 6 (Did I mention that I hate computers, microsoft, formats, tables, and anything that doesn't have an eraser that I can chew on?). Class Features: All of the following are class features of the weaponsmaster. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A weaponsmaster is proficient with all simple, martial, and exotic weapons. Additionally at first level, she is treated as if having Two Weapon Fighting with any double-weapon, but not with two weapons; This bonus ‘ability/proficiency’ is not to be confused with or traded with the full ‘feat’. (The feat may be taken separately, of course). She is not proficient in the use of any type of armor or shield, and loses all abilities related to AC, dodge, evasion, and movement if so clad, or if bearing more than a light load. (At any level). AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the weaponsmaster adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a weaponsmaster gains a +1 bonus to AC at 1st level. This bonus increases with level advancement, as shown on the chart. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the weaponsmaster is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Fast Movement (Ex): Carrying a medium or heavy load negates this extra speed. Combat Style (Ex): The weaponmaster’s proficiency in all weapons is absolute, but her mastery is in melee combat. Her Focus, Specialization, and Improved Critical feats apply to any weapon, but only when in melee use. Only normal proficiency applies to a thrown dagger or spear, for instance, the same one(s) she was just using to special effect in melee. The feats Focus and Improved Critical may be taken separately by the weaponsmaster, as normal, for any weapon; the bonuses do not stack. The feat Specialization remains the purview of the fighter class, other than as granted here. Freedom of Movement (Ex): Exactly as per the spell, the weaponsmaster has become nearly impossible to restrain in combat, by magical or mundane means. Unlike the spell, the magical ability to use slashing or bludgeoning weapons underwater is not granted. Ahhhhh... sigh.... :))))) I feel the waves of heart-attacks from here! I can sleep content now... But give it a real-time minute, friends... yeah, I know, it seems like I just gave 50 feats away for free... all those focuses and specializations and improved criticals and all that!!! But REALLY... THINK ABOUT THIS: How many weapons can YOUR* character hold in one round? What really got given away?.... grin. Remember: Think outside of the Box. Eat outside of the Bun. Draw on the other side of the paper, don't try to stretch it, but make a picture that tells a story. Please do drive inside the lines. You idiots. Next time: Why wives do not make good familiars. NeueRegel (I'm actually serious about anybody that want's to correspond, it's WindShear@peoplepc.com , until you say anything I don't like.)
Thief of Always 02-23-05, 04:19 AM	Yo, why you gotta hate? I don't know what you intended with that rediuclous preface, but you catch more flies with honey, or some nonsense. I'd suggest cleaning this up and removing all the mean spirited text, complaints about computers, off-color jokes, and comments about how drunk you are. But I digress... BAB of a fighter, two good saves, tumble/spot/listen class skills, evasion, AC buffs, UD, and versatility in weapon selection and use. It doesn't really seem really unbalanced, but it also doesn't seem like it fills any niche that needs to be filled. Rainer Maria Rilke once said that the best art comes from necessity; I'd like to think D&D classes are the same way. This basically looks like a FTR/ROG with some movement buffs and a PRC that gives you weapon selection and the ability to apply weapon-specific feats to all weapons. If I were you, I'd just squish all of the versatility stuff into a 5 level PRC.
Stado 02-23-05, 04:34 AM	You're a very scary person... otherwise, nice, though not necessarily balanced, class. In truth, all my characters have only ever wielded a single weapon, be it a one-handed, two-handed, or double weapon, never dual weapons (excluding the unarmed attacks of a monk). So in other words: I'd never take this class, ever. I'm a fan of specialization, being too varied is being too plain in my opinion. Of course then again, I can see some people who could actually have a use for this class and can thus commend it. The ability to fight well with any weapon is quite the talent, and it's agreeable that you shouldn't have everyone running around as one of these.
NeueRegel 02-23-05, 04:34 AM	I can live with all of what you said Thief, I think. Off-colour, though? I'm tired, but I actually don't drink, some of that was while I was messing with my 17-year-old stepson. In all game-ness, I think I'm in balance. I don't want to "squish" anything, that in itself sounds like unfairness. I'm bouncing this off you outsiders before I hit my players with it. (They hate that, but ya know... 4 dentists recommend having a tooth pulled when it yells too loudly...) NeueRegel
NeueRegel 02-23-05, 04:45 AM	Okay, Thief, Stado; fix my class; how do I make "THE FIGHTER TO GET AWAY FROM THE MATERIAL SPECIALIZATIONS", without being a monk, with enough draw that he or she is viable? Garet Jax? Red Sonja? Blade? Etc?
colm_l 02-23-05, 04:57 AM	:rofl: http://pw1.netcom.com/~rogermw/ADnD/ or is the resemblance merely chance? Is the #2 pencil the one that draws maps or takes notes?
NeueRegel 02-23-05, 04:57 AM	smirk. I got caught in the trap of wanting to play the enemy. Bad DM! BAD!
Thief of Always 02-23-05, 04:58 AM	Okay, I don't think you are in a place to demand two of your now fellow forumers [who can be nice and intelligent people, despite whatever you've said] should fix your class, but I told you how I would change it. And I don't know exactly who this "Gater Jax" person is, but I assume weaponmaster is a just a title expressing his martial prowess. The only way you are really going to take the draw away from weapon-favoritism is to remove the weapon-specific feats.
Will Brandiman 02-23-05, 05:04 AM	Ahh, Garet Jax. I knew him well. In fact I made up a Weapon Master class back in 1e days just so I could play someone like him. It sucked. But then, I was only 12 and didn't even know what a Munchkin was back then. Turned out it was me.
Neeek 02-23-05, 05:09 AM	If you are going for Garet Jax, shouldn't you make it, you know, much better?
Nyferto 02-23-05, 06:42 AM	Sword of Shannara series? alright... so take it out at range and they're completely screwed? With no armour or shields, and a very poor ranged ability (if you bother). I don't see how this is really a weapon master. Not only that but it suffers slightly from MAD.
angryman 02-23-05, 08:33 AM	:tiphat: So surly...hehe. You're funny. Your class is cool, too. Angry, angry man. Hooray for drunks!
ShadowDragoon 02-23-05, 10:13 AM	He's a lowly troller, plain and simple. Lowest of the low. Even lower than spammers. I hate people like you. You give n00bs in general a bad name. Granted, some deserve it, but not all. And it's the shame you represent which personifies that stereotype. Shame on you. SHAME!!
Nyferto 02-23-05, 12:12 PM	Responding to flamatory posts with more flames will just get you banned, and he could be being Ironic.
NeueRegel 02-23-05, 01:36 PM	For the record, aside from being more than a little angry with Word3000, which I never have bothered to learn to use, I was trolling only a little. I've found that some inflammatory irony does indeed often get more people to pay attention than the proverbial honey. *) I'll be around. NeueRegel PS: I tried the chat rooms last night too, but they don't seem to work. I guess I don't know the room-names?
ShadowDragoon 02-23-05, 01:44 PM	A little hint? Never try to use irony in posts. People don't get it. It's turned friendships sour for me many a time.
Stado 02-23-05, 10:37 PM	Personally, I don't have the fainted clue as to how to fix your class. As I said, I'd never take this class and so I can't put much effort into something I'm not entirely enthusiastic about; and again, that doesn't mean it's a bad class, because it actually quite sensible, it's just that it not balanced and that's the problem. And ShadowDragoon, not to seem rude or anything, but the irony was all too obvious. Sorry.
Encard 02-23-05, 11:20 PM	Additionally at first level, she is treated as if having Two Weapon Fighting with any double-weapon, but not with two weapons; This bonus ‘ability/proficiency’ is not to be confused with or traded with the full ‘feat’. (The feat may be taken separately, of course). Hmm... I'm not quite clear on what you mean here. Are you simply emphasizing that the character only gets the TWF feat in relation to double weapons, or are you saying that this thing they get doesn't count as a virtual feat for other things that have TWF as a prerequisite? Hmm... I'm having a hard time noticing anything else really specific to point out. I think the class might be somewhat underpowered, personally, but then again I thin I tend to lean toward the higher end of the scale in determining balanced. Hmm... You might want to consider giving it a few bonus feats, I think, but I'm honestly not quite certain. If you want to further divorce this from specific weapons, you might want to consider giving them some sort of Malleable Weapon Form ability that lets them change any weapon they're using (or some special bonded weapon(s) they have or such) into any other weapon while keeping the same magical abilities. This would, of course, inject a fair bit of magic into the class. The real problem, though, is that certain weapons are just better than others, particularly with certain types of builds. Weapon versitility is usually not needed, and when it is a backup weapon or two will usually do the trick. I don't think you can totally eliminate that without making all weapons have exactly the same damage/threat/crit/etc, which would make the world rather dull... Hmm... What about some sort of multiple-weapon-type attack combo chain of abilities? As in, when the character attacks first with weapon x and then with weapon y, the enemy suffers such-and-such special effect. On the other hand, if the character attacks with weapon x and then weapon c and then weapon z, the enemy instead suffers this-and-that special effect. You get the picture, I'm sure. This would probably require a Quick Sheath ability being added to the class... I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but it's an idea. And ShadowDragoon, not to seem rude or anything, but the irony was all too obvious. Sorry. Yeah, I'm going to have to agree...
bookwurm 02-24-05, 09:54 AM	not bad, i really like it and it seems to go with the Garet Jax theme (probably one of my favorite fantasy characters :smirk: one badass dude). at first i thought of it as overpowered, but it really isn't. pretty good class. P.S. just a suggestion, but tone down on your rants man. you can really **** people of with that. my mom is wiccan so i guess you really struck a nerve there. just think, what if someone was saying that to you. you wouldn't appriciate it much, would you?
NeueRegel 02-24-05, 12:17 PM	Sorry to offend bookwurm ;) I'm wiccan too; Where do you think I knew to use the rhetoric insults from? Because I have heard them all directed towards myself! I take it with a grain of salt and a chuckle, myself, often almost every day. :) NeueRegel Encard: Correct about double-weapon fighting; it is not the feat two-weapon fighting, thus you could not later invent "improved double-weapon fighting", et al; The bonus was more a final quirk to add on to "proficient with all weapons, simple/martial/exotic/double... just to be able to claim to be able to use every weapon. The weaponsmaster could choose his feats/level to excel at two-weapon fighting, or towards archery feats, like a Ranger, or whatever else the player envisions; I wanted to steer away from heavy-handedly steering the player like the Ranger does. My npc character took all the 3.5 prerequisites leading up to Whirlwind attack, for instance, with improved initiative and power attack thrown in.
bookwurm 02-25-05, 11:44 AM	It's alright we're cool. just have't had my head on right for the past few days(i blame this weather. hotcoldhotcold its killing my allergies) you know i actually didnt think this many people were into the Sword of Shannara series. It's my favorite series and Garet Jax is my favorite person in it. its pretty cool to see a Prc that really goes with him.
Nyferto 02-25-05, 12:10 PM	He's only alive for 1 book, unless he's somehow resurected. Anyway, there's little to suggest he'd ignore ranged weapons, and even less to suggest he's not much more than a Ranger/Fighter or possible just a Fighter.
NeueRegel 02-25-05, 01:33 PM	Nyferto: Correct, he's alive for his role in the one book only. I never said that the weaponsmaster class would ignore ranged weapons in any way; she is proficient in all and every weapon. I did suggest that her "mastery" was in melee combat. Part of the rationale behind her "Improved Movement", is to get her to her target in less time than normal, lessening the missile attacks against her, and "getting down to business". As far as Garet Jax, specifically: I have to state that in the 20 or so years that we've been playing, we've always played very low-magic item campaigns; We might gain about 3 items/character, ever. And we certainly couldn't go and have them made, for mere gold! gasp. In other words: no bracers of armor, no rings of protection, etc can be expected to come our way. Now, to want to play a character like Garet Jax, you have to look at him in this light: He did not wear armor; He did not possess in magic items, of any kind. He starts the story with a quarterstaff, a shortsword, and a knife (dagger); He did not display any spellcasting ability of any kind; He did, by dint of skill and skill alone, : Know the melee combat use of all weapons, including unarmed combat, as the gnome Slanter relates in one story against three pike-men; I also recall mention of him training men in the southland, dwarves in the eastland, and elves (in archery!) in the westland. (I can't find the reference to that last, this minute, it'll bug me now til I re-find it). Almost never get hit, literally "dancing" through the tentacles of the Kraken, picking up a discarded pike on the fly, and using it to drive the creature back into the depths; In fact, the only time you see him take damage is in his final battle with the supernatural Jachyra; So, to play a non-magicked-out character of the school of combat, "Don't be in the way of whatever's coming at you", I developed what I did. Had the game made Uncanny Dodge, Evasion feats, and had the game not made Combat Expertise such an impossible trade-off, 1:1, You're right, the weaponsmaster could have been "just a fighter". For the same reasons that I didn't want to force a ranger-type TWF or Archery weapon style down the player's throat, I left this out too, leaving it up to the player to decide to take such feats if he/she likes, or dip into the monk class, or whatever. NeueRegel
NeueRegel 02-25-05, 01:45 PM	PS: (Reply to myself/everybody) I did try to keep the class balanced. I sat down with the Ranger chart in front of me, and tried to replace skills/feats/class abilities, one for one. I originally replaced the Fave Enemies with AC bonuses; The Weapon Styles with the weapon feats, etc. I then looked at rogues, monks, and rangers for what levels they got Uncanny, Evasion, and Improved~, and re-sorted them. I looked at the ranger's spell ability, and simply discarded it, first because it didn't fit, second so that I could say "I did for balance", and finally because the weaponsmaster is intelligence-based, not wisdom. Then things just go a bit more streamlined, after about 10 sheets of paper. :) NeueRegel