Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luminosity 07-08-05, 06:01 AM	Two actually. 1) According to the RAW, if you are of sufficient HD and are able to wildshape into the correct size, can you Wildshape into an advanced version of the creature, such as a Huge Dire Bear? I'm aware that Alter Self describes an "average" member of the target race, but the Monster Manual says that the creatures therein are the weakest of their kind, not necessarily average members. It seems to me that "average" refers to use of the base stat array (i.e. not elite or high-point-buy). 2) Same question, but ignore the RAW. How should it work?
Thorak 07-08-05, 07:17 AM	Two actually. 1) According to the RAW, if you are of sufficient HD and are able to wildshape into the correct size, can you Wildshape into an advanced version of the creature, such as a Huge Dire Bear? I'm aware that Alter Self describes an "average" member of the target race, but the Monster Manual says that the creatures therein are the weakest of their kind, not necessarily average members. It seems to me that "average" refers to use of the base stat array (i.e. not elite or high-point-buy). By the RAW, probably not. It depends on what you interpret Advanced creatures to be, and the MM isn't clear enough. If they're exceptional individuals, then no. If they're an exceptional subspecies, like the various bears are compared to the weakest one, then yes. But you'd have to be familiar with that subspecies, then, which would mean you'd have to have encountered it at some point. 2) Same question, but ignore the RAW. How should it work? Same answer. Pick which way you want to interpret Advancement. I personally prefer the "exceptional subspecies" version, myself.
Nyferto 07-08-05, 07:25 AM	I've never seen a MM refer to animals as the weakest of their kind. I've always seen them as the basic type and everything above is the exception. Advancement The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. You can only wildshape into the basic creature. Ignoring RAW - how Wildshape should work is a very unspecific and highly debateable topic.
HorizonWalker 07-08-05, 09:06 AM	On a related note, I had a player recently ask me if he could Polymorph into a Half-Red Dragon/Ogre. It's a real creature, heck, he's actually fought one in game... So can he, or can't he?
farfairer 07-08-05, 09:18 AM	Um.... right.... The spells don't specify. However there is something in the Rules of the Game article on Polymorphing about assuming a form with a template. I think the article says that you cannot do it. However, you should check for yourself, as I dont' have it infront of me at the moment.
Harzerkatze 07-08-05, 09:19 AM	On a related note, I had a player recently ask me if he could Polymorph into a Half-Red Dragon/Ogre. So can he, or can't he?Polymorph explicitely forbids templates. Regarding the advancement question, things are more tricky: The Sage said that individual creatures with additional HD like a druid's animal companion do not get size increases. That means that a creature advanced by the MM rules (which includes size increases) isn't just a very healthy individual, it is a different race all by itself. So a 5-HD wolf is another race as a 2-HD wolf, and thus there might would an average 5-HD wolf, which is the acerage animal of its race. So this issue is quite muddy. I personally allow advanced creature forms (which usually has little effect anyway, there are usually dire versions or other creatures with more HD which are more powerful. The only exception I know where advancement actually is quite useful is the fleshraker dinosaur). But its your choice.
Nyferto 07-08-05, 12:39 PM	Alter Self says no Templates, Polymorph is based on that. Nothing lets you use a Templated creature. Bonus HD don't count towards advancement.
farfairer 07-08-05, 02:39 PM	Harzerkatze and Nyferto are absolutely correct about templates. I rechecked the spell and found where I missed the part. As far as advanced animals, I would say no. A wolf and an advanced wolf don't count as different races. The difference between a wolf and an advanced wolf is that one is average and one is special. Thats all. They are both wolves. Since Polymprph says that you can only turn into an average member of a race, I would say no you cannot change into an advanced animal. An advanced animal actually follows the same rules as an advanced huminoid. So if I can turn into an advanced (12 Hit die) wolf using polymorph, I should also be able to turn into an advance (12 Hit die) Orc. Orc's advance by class, therefor if I can polymorph into a 12 HD Orc, that means I can polymorph into a 12HD Orc Barbarian. An Animal companion is something special akin to a familiarand that is why it doesn't count as an advanced animal. A wolf, an advanced wolf, a legendary wolf (template), a war-beast trained wolf, and a wolf animal companion are 5 different things that each follow the rules differently. A wolf (as in the entry in the MM) is an average member of its race, and therefor can be polymorphed into. An advanced wolf is a special (advanced) member of its race, and therefor cannot be polymorphed into. A legendary wolf, and a war-beast trained wolf are both wolves with templates, and therefor cannot be polymorphed into. A wolf animal companion is a seperate type of special wolf who gains abilities because of his unique bond with his Druid or Ranger, and therefor cannot be polymorphed into.
Myztek 07-08-05, 03:38 PM	My solution to polymorph problems: Rewrite it. The keys: Specifying the blanks, limiting the new form by ECL instead of Hit Dice and limiting the ability score changes a bit. Polymorph Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell changes the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have an effective character level (ECL) higher than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of a 15 ECL at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. A subject may not take the form of a creature that has not been assigned an ECL. The subject acquires the physical qualities of the new form while retaining its own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. The subject can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under its control, but must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. The subject is effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If the subject uses this spell to create a disguise, it gains a +10 bonus on its Disguise check. The subject gains all extraordinary and supernatural special attacks and qualities possessed by the form, but does not gain any spell-like abilities. The subject gains the new form’s creature race, type and subtype (if any) in addition to their own type. When gaining the race, type and subtype, the target gains the traits of that type and subtype, including any supernatural traits, but not any spell-like traits. If there is a conflict between beneficial traits of the targets normal race, type or subtype and the race, type or subtype gained by this spell, the target may choose how to resolve the conflict (ie; if one type grants 10 points of resistance to cold and the other type grants cold immunity, the target may choose whether to gain the resistance to cold or the cold immunity), however, penalty or negative traits (such as fire vulnerability) must be taken (ie; one type grants 10 points of resistance to cold and the other type grants cold vulnerability, the target must choose the cold vulnerability instead of the resistance). The DM is the final arbiter of whether an ability is a negative or penalty ability. Your class and level, total hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. Each of the subject’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) are changed to the lesser of : 1) Their own score with size modifiers to the score to account for a change in size, or 2) The ability score of a standard creature of that type + 6. The target retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action. When the change occurs, the subject’s equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the subject reverts to its true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on its body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items donned in the assumed form and that can’t be worn in the subject’s normal form fall off and land at the subject’s feet; any that the subject could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form. Worn magical clothing and jewelry will resize to accommodate the new form. Magical armor, nonmagical clothing, nonmagical jewelry and held objects will not resize. Material Component: An empty cocoon.