A wizard's problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

A wizard's problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NOCTEBRISA
09-21-07, 05:48 PM Hi,

This is the question:

If I have a wizard (with 1st Elven Wizard Substitution Level), and my pc takes one level of Loremaster PrC... how many spells should I learn in a new level? 2 or 3?

Thanks!!!
dman11235
09-21-07, 06:16 PM 2. The substitution only applies to wizard levels. That's how it reads.
LoneFlame
09-21-07, 10:19 PM It's an increase to the Wizard's effective spells known, so I'd have to say 3, since caster prestige classes advance spell casting as if you had gained another lv in said spell casting class.
Treantmonklvl20
09-21-07, 10:39 PM Loneflame is correct.
E_Morrow
09-21-07, 11:07 PM I must concur with Loneflame. Given that prestige classes advance spellcasting as per their base class, the issue is not whether or not a generalist elf wizard would gain 2 or 3 spells at each level (the answer is 3 as the base class in this case is generalist wizard) but whether or not you consider prestige classes to give additional spells in a wizard’s spellbook at all.

Personally I, like so many others, never gave additional new spells at each level from a prestige class a second thought but apparently there is some debate over the issue.
dman11235
09-22-07, 01:38 AM The wizard substitution level references wizard level, not spell caster advancement.
NOCTEBRISA
09-22-07, 02:54 AM Yes, but when you advance a Loremaster level (or any class with spellcasting ability) you gain spells like you advance in your old arcane class...

If I don't gain the extra spell from ESL, I neither gain the two spells from the wizard class.
:confused:
dman11235
09-22-07, 03:05 AM The substitution gives you an extra one at each wizard level. That's in addition to the ones for the caster level+spells per day+spells know that each wizard, lore master, archmage, etc get. At each new wizard level you gain an extra one.
ManTimeForgot
09-22-07, 04:02 AM Yes, and gaining loremaster emulates gaining a wizard level for the purposes of gaining new spells. Not sure how you are creating a discriminatory schema...

MTF
dman11235
09-22-07, 04:07 AM It's like this: You have 10 wizard levels, and 10 lore master levels. You have spells in your spell book equaling two per level above first. That's how the normal wizard would work. The elf substitution level would give you an extra spell for each wizard level, and only wizard levels, as that's how it's worded. If it had said you gain 3 instead of 2 spells known, rather than an extra on wizard levels, your way would work.
LoneFlame
09-22-07, 11:28 AM It is a fact that caster prestige classes advance you spell casting ability as if you had taken another lv in the base class, so any modifications you make to the base class through variants or substitution lvs count when your prestige class advances you spell casting. Period.

For example, the Battle Sorcerer variant in Unearthed Arcana reduces spells per day & spells known to improve hit dice, base attack, and some other crap. When someone prestiges with it, those reductions carry over into the prestige class's spell casting advancement, even though you'd no long be benefiting from the improvements the variant gives you.
Trelio
09-22-07, 11:55 AM Actually, I'll have to agree with dman11235. The book clearly states: At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast.

Even if the PrC gives you increased spellcasting as per the base Class, it does'nt give any acces to any of the base class other habilities. It refers to the same spell list, spell progression, caster lvl etc.

I do not think a Wizard substitution lvl should apply to a PrC. But even so, its always the DM's choice...so ask him, not us
LoneFlame
09-22-07, 12:36 PM Here's a sample of how the caster prestige works...

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

That is true when you're doing the normal version of class and it's true when you do a variant of the class. Period.
NOCTEBRISA
09-22-07, 01:44 PM [QUOTE=
Even if the PrC gives you increased spellcasting as per the base Class, it does'nt give any acces to any of the base class other habilities. It refers to the same spell list, spell progression, caster lvl etc.
[/QUOTE]

The PC increases his spellcasting level (with new spells per level), and gain spells (in his spellbook (for a wizard)) like he increases a level in the old caster class.

When a Loremaster gain a level he don't increases familiar abilities and don't gain bonus feat but he gains spellcasting level and spells known like a wizard.
dman11235
09-22-07, 03:44 PM For example, the Battle Sorcerer variant in Unearthed Arcana reduces spells per day & spells known to improve hit dice, base attack, and some other crap. When someone prestiges with it, those reductions carry over into the prestige class's spell casting advancement, even though you'd no long be benefiting from the improvements the variant gives you.

That's different. The battle sorcerer is changing the number of spells learned at each level. This is not changing that, but for each wizard level you can get a bonus one.
EpicEvokerElf
09-22-07, 04:18 PM No, it's changing the number from two to three. No ture how you see a difference.
dman11235
09-22-07, 04:37 PM It is not changing the number from two to three. If it was, it would say: "You gain three new spells in your spell book at each level instead of two". But it doesn't. It says "At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast."
Mojo_Rat
09-22-07, 05:06 PM I think the distinction he is trying to make is that Gaining levels in loremaster increases your spellcasting. It does not in fact increase your /wizard/ level.
So it seems to me he would stop gaining the benefit when he raises the loremaster levels.

a 10 level wizard 10 level loremaster has a CL of 20 but a wizard level of only 10 which is the key focus.
LoneFlame
09-22-07, 05:29 PM I fail to see how some of y'all disagree with my assessment.

Every single variation on the Wizard that effects their spell-casting(ie, spells known, spells per day, available schools/domains).

The racial substitution lv in question is an alteration on the spell casting. It effectively adds 1/lv to spells known for the wizard. This change would effects your spells known for every lv if you went 20 lv class. Prestige classes increase your spell casting capability as if you had advanced in Wizard. Thus, that fundamental change to the wizard's spells known would be applied in caster prestige classes.

Despite that snippet of blatant common sense, individuals such as dman11235(sorry for singling you out, but you're my biggest opposer in this debate), would deny you the ongoing results of a class variant, because they misinterpret some text.

The reason it says "At each new Wizard lv" is to make sure that people can't try to exploit an unintentional loophole to gain spells on their characters that are multiclassed into some class that doesn't advance their spell casting(such as Fighter)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NOCTEBRISA 09-21-07, 05:48 PM	Hi, This is the question: If I have a wizard (with 1st Elven Wizard Substitution Level), and my pc takes one level of Loremaster PrC... how many spells should I learn in a new level? 2 or 3? Thanks!!!
dman11235 09-21-07, 06:16 PM	2. The substitution only applies to wizard levels. That's how it reads.
LoneFlame 09-21-07, 10:19 PM	It's an increase to the Wizard's effective spells known, so I'd have to say 3, since caster prestige classes advance spell casting as if you had gained another lv in said spell casting class.
Treantmonklvl20 09-21-07, 10:39 PM	Loneflame is correct.
E_Morrow 09-21-07, 11:07 PM	I must concur with Loneflame. Given that prestige classes advance spellcasting as per their base class, the issue is not whether or not a generalist elf wizard would gain 2 or 3 spells at each level (the answer is 3 as the base class in this case is generalist wizard) but whether or not you consider prestige classes to give additional spells in a wizard’s spellbook at all. Personally I, like so many others, never gave additional new spells at each level from a prestige class a second thought but apparently there is some debate over the issue.
dman11235 09-22-07, 01:38 AM	The wizard substitution level references wizard level, not spell caster advancement.
NOCTEBRISA 09-22-07, 02:54 AM	Yes, but when you advance a Loremaster level (or any class with spellcasting ability) you gain spells like you advance in your old arcane class... If I don't gain the extra spell from ESL, I neither gain the two spells from the wizard class. :confused:
dman11235 09-22-07, 03:05 AM	The substitution gives you an extra one at each wizard level. That's in addition to the ones for the caster level+spells per day+spells know that each wizard, lore master, archmage, etc get. At each new wizard level you gain an extra one.
ManTimeForgot 09-22-07, 04:02 AM	Yes, and gaining loremaster emulates gaining a wizard level for the purposes of gaining new spells. Not sure how you are creating a discriminatory schema... MTF
dman11235 09-22-07, 04:07 AM	It's like this: You have 10 wizard levels, and 10 lore master levels. You have spells in your spell book equaling two per level above first. That's how the normal wizard would work. The elf substitution level would give you an extra spell for each wizard level, and only wizard levels, as that's how it's worded. If it had said you gain 3 instead of 2 spells known, rather than an extra on wizard levels, your way would work.
LoneFlame 09-22-07, 11:28 AM	It is a fact that caster prestige classes advance you spell casting ability as if you had taken another lv in the base class, so any modifications you make to the base class through variants or substitution lvs count when your prestige class advances you spell casting. Period. For example, the Battle Sorcerer variant in Unearthed Arcana reduces spells per day & spells known to improve hit dice, base attack, and some other crap. When someone prestiges with it, those reductions carry over into the prestige class's spell casting advancement, even though you'd no long be benefiting from the improvements the variant gives you.
Trelio 09-22-07, 11:55 AM	Actually, I'll have to agree with dman11235. The book clearly states: At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast. Even if the PrC gives you increased spellcasting as per the base Class, it does'nt give any acces to any of the base class other habilities. It refers to the same spell list, spell progression, caster lvl etc. I do not think a Wizard substitution lvl should apply to a PrC. But even so, its always the DM's choice...so ask him, not us
LoneFlame 09-22-07, 12:36 PM	Here's a sample of how the caster prestige works... When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. That is true when you're doing the normal version of class and it's true when you do a variant of the class. Period.
NOCTEBRISA 09-22-07, 01:44 PM	[QUOTE= Even if the PrC gives you increased spellcasting as per the base Class, it does'nt give any acces to any of the base class other habilities. It refers to the same spell list, spell progression, caster lvl etc. [/QUOTE] The PC increases his spellcasting level (with new spells per level), and gain spells (in his spellbook (for a wizard)) like he increases a level in the old caster class. When a Loremaster gain a level he don't increases familiar abilities and don't gain bonus feat but he gains spellcasting level and spells known like a wizard.
dman11235 09-22-07, 03:44 PM	For example, the Battle Sorcerer variant in Unearthed Arcana reduces spells per day & spells known to improve hit dice, base attack, and some other crap. When someone prestiges with it, those reductions carry over into the prestige class's spell casting advancement, even though you'd no long be benefiting from the improvements the variant gives you. That's different. The battle sorcerer is changing the number of spells learned at each level. This is not changing that, but for each wizard level you can get a bonus one.
EpicEvokerElf 09-22-07, 04:18 PM	No, it's changing the number from two to three. No ture how you see a difference.
dman11235 09-22-07, 04:37 PM	It is not changing the number from two to three. If it was, it would say: "You gain three new spells in your spell book at each level instead of two". But it doesn't. It says "At each new wizard level, she gains one extra spell of any spell level that she can cast."
Mojo_Rat 09-22-07, 05:06 PM	I think the distinction he is trying to make is that Gaining levels in loremaster increases your spellcasting. It does not in fact increase your /wizard/ level. So it seems to me he would stop gaining the benefit when he raises the loremaster levels. a 10 level wizard 10 level loremaster has a CL of 20 but a wizard level of only 10 which is the key focus.
LoneFlame 09-22-07, 05:29 PM	I fail to see how some of y'all disagree with my assessment. Every single variation on the Wizard that effects their spell-casting(ie, spells known, spells per day, available schools/domains). The racial substitution lv in question is an alteration on the spell casting. It effectively adds 1/lv to spells known for the wizard. This change would effects your spells known for every lv if you went 20 lv class. Prestige classes increase your spell casting capability as if you had advanced in Wizard. Thus, that fundamental change to the wizard's spells known would be applied in caster prestige classes. Despite that snippet of blatant common sense, individuals such as dman11235(sorry for singling you out, but you're my biggest opposer in this debate), would deny you the ongoing results of a class variant, because they misinterpret some text. The reason it says "At each new Wizard lv" is to make sure that people can't try to exploit an unintentional loophole to gain spells on their characters that are multiclassed into some class that doesn't advance their spell casting(such as Fighter)