Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Luis_Dragunov 05-16-07, 04:06 PM	Only recently have I noticed how fragile the wizard class is. Sure, they got all those massive spells but they seem to be all recorded on a series of spellbooks which, unless I'm mistaken, are just normal books. What happens if a wizard somehow loses his spellbook(s)? What if they are destroyed? Is the wizard suddenly useless?
DarkRhystar 05-16-07, 04:10 PM	Only recently have I noticed how fragile the wizard class is. Sure, they got all those massive spells but they seem to be all recorded on a series of spellbooks which, unless I'm mistaken, are just normal books. What happens if a wizard somehow loses his spellbook(s)? What if they are destroyed? Is the wizard suddenly useless? Pretty much. A Wizard gets easily hosed if the spellbook goes bye bye however, unless you're investing in Baccob's Blessed Book... Use more than one book! That wasn't so hard.
Vharuck 05-16-07, 04:13 PM	What happens if a wizard somehow loses his spellbook(s)? He can only prepare read magic and any spells he chose with the Spell Mastery feat *snicker*. I would suggest this wizard get right to starting a new spellbook as soon as possible. What if they are destroyed? Is the wizard suddenly useless? Yes, the wizard is useless, and the wizard's player should kick somebody. Who shall be kicked depends on whether: A. the wizard was amazingly careless, which caused the spellbook's destruction (ex. "I'm out of spells and bolts! I throw my spellbook at the fire elemental!"). If this is the case, the wizard's player should kick himself/herself. or B. the DM thought it would be "interesting" to see how the wizard would react to losing his/her spellbook, and so went out of his/her way to destroy said tome. The DM needs to be kicked in this scenario most of the time, as he/she is a jerk. However, this kick should not be delivered had the DM planned to repay the wizard in some way (finding a nearly identical spellbook except for some new awesome spells in it).
Luis_Dragunov 05-16-07, 04:23 PM	But doesn't this seem flawed? Sure, the fighter can't do much without a weapon, a rogue can't do much in a straight-on fight and a bard needs a musical instrument to use his bardic music but no other class is suddenly (and mayhaps permanently) rendered null just because a piece of equipment has been lost.
Kursk 05-16-07, 05:29 PM	But doesn't this seem flawed? Sure, the fighter can't do much without a weapon, a rogue can't do much in a straight-on fight and a bard needs a musical instrument to use his bardic music but no other class is suddenly (and mayhaps permanently) rendered null just because a piece of equipment has been lost. Well, since Wizards have INT as the main stat maybe they should ponder on this aspect of their profession and MAKE A DUPLICATE BOOK. Really, not a hard problem.
FloppyLlama 05-16-07, 05:32 PM	but no other class is suddenly (and mayhaps permanently) rendered null just because a piece of equipment has been lost. The Wizard doesn't cease to exist. They still have skillpoints, armed and unarmed combat etc... They're no more rendered null than a fighter without equipment.
ZocckCastlestorm 05-16-07, 05:52 PM	Making back-up Spellbooks is the VERY FIRST THING TO SAVE UP FOR!!! This goes for every single Wizard. Really. No sarcasm. No bad jokes. Just really(and forcefully) recommended. It's my S.O.P.(Standard Operating Procedure). By Level 2, you should have about 900 GP. Of this, you should spend 300-450 GP on your Grimiore(Fancy, and durable type of back-up Spellbook). At a Cost of 50 GP per Page Copied, you'll get about 1-3 Spells Copied(depending how much you spent on the Grimiore itself), say 1 Cantrip of real use, like Detect Magic, or Acid Splash, as well as a 1st Level Spell, like Mage Armor.By 3rd Level, you should have about 2,700 GP. Spend about 750-950 more on copying Spells over to the Grimiore at the same Rate for Cantrips/1st Level Spells, but the 2nd Level Spells will cost you 100 GP each(and 2 pages, not 1), so be sure to Copy at least one 2nd, so you will not forget/regret later. After 5th Level, you sould seriously think on Enchanting your Spellbooks. The Basic one you have been using is lighter, but more vulnerable, so Waterproof and Resist Energy(Minor) are not bad investments, as each Costs a mere 1,000 GP, compared to the cost/time of replacing the whole darn book and ALL THE SPELLS! Consider replacing the basic one with a more durable one, using the Grimiore as the new main Spellbook, and crafting/buying a much larger(more pages) and better defended Grimiore-just in case...:D
Neutronium_Dragon 05-16-07, 06:31 PM	That just ends up being a tax, though. The fighter doesn't need to pay through the nose to prevent his feats from being destroyed, and a rogue's skills can't be stolen if he doesn't bleed thousands of GP to put protective spells on them. Yes, all their other gear can be stolen, but all the wizard's other gear can be stolen too. The difference is that, unlike the other classes, this one item represents almost the entirety of his class abilities rather than simply his kit. The whole wizard spellbook thing is a hangover from 1E's "bleep the players" attitude where stealing/destroying the spellbook was regarded as a way to "teach the player a lesson" if the DM didn't like the wizard being successful.
FloppyLlama 05-16-07, 06:34 PM	That just ends up being a tax, though. The fighter doesn't need to pay through the nose to prevent his feats from being destroyed, and a rogue's skills can't be stolen if he doesn't bleed thousands of GP to put protective spells on them. They can't bend reality into a pretzel and then snack on it though.
Krusk 05-16-07, 06:37 PM	suggestions to wizards worried about loosing their spellbook 1- use multiple, this has been covered 2- use an alternate form of spellbook, as detalied in the dmg2 i believe. Such as braids in the hair, tattoos on the skin ect. still can be destroyed but hard to steal. 3- look through complete arcane and throw some of those cheap properties on the book to make it hard to break. 4- store it/them in a bag of holding that you keep on you. it no longer is harmed by the environment and you only need to worry about someone jacking that. 5- arcane mark it, now you know where it is at all times. 6- booby trap it, i like sepias snake sigil at early levels. anyone who opens it is frozen in place. 7- dummy spellbooks containing nothing but sigil of _____. and most importantly 8- make sure your DM is not a jerk
Neutronium_Dragon 05-16-07, 06:39 PM	The druid, cleric, and sorcerer can - and they don't have the problem of being forced to spend wads of their equipment value on protecting their class abilities.
Kursk 05-16-07, 06:45 PM	[QUOTE=Neutronium_Dragon;12417905]That just ends up being a tax, though. The fighter doesn't need to pay through the nose to prevent his feats from being destroyed, /QUOTE] Tell that to the fighter that just lost his Uber magic weapon.
FloppyLlama 05-16-07, 06:49 PM	The druid, cleric, and sorcerer can - and they don't have the problem of being forced to spend wads of their equipment value on protecting their class abilities. Good point.
ravidubey 05-16-07, 06:57 PM	Wizards have the best spells in the game and the only real counterbalance is the spellbook/gp tax system. They can learn and do just about anything which makes them the most powerful character class bar none. Sure druids and clerics are each powerful in their own ways, but the sheer dominant power of the wizard tops them easily.
StevenO 05-16-07, 07:12 PM	I would at least consider a Wizard's spellbook to be a masterwork item and give it some save bonus if needed. Destroying or otherwise removing a wizards spellbook is perfectly legal but should only be done rarely and generally with purpose. I don't like seeing some people sing praises to the wizard's "near infinite power" but then cry like babies when said wizard's spellbook is lost as a demonstration of the classes HUGE weakness. A wizard that loses his spellbook may suffer a setback but there are ways around it. 1. Prepare a new book or have extras copies. Except for the cost you should have little trouble putting the spells currently in memory back on paper. 2. Spell Mastery: I think thats the right name. It is a wizard only feat (I'd expand that to "book caster" only.) that allow the character to prepare some spells from memory. Effectively it copies a number of spell equal to your INT modifier into memory so they can be prepared from there. I highly recommend a mid-high level wizard should take this feat at least once (choose a variety of spells including some to help recover you lost spells) to cover the possibility of a spellbook mishap. 3. With a spellcraft check you can prepare spells from another wizard's spellbook. 4. Without a spellbook you can still use scrolls (although you may want to save them to create a new spellbook), wands, and stalves.
ServanWolf 05-16-07, 07:25 PM	i can say that with low level characters campaigns a DM will not try to steal the spellbook or destroy it...cause no monster is really strong enough for these (stealing a spellbook seems me a really hard job) and even then they can more easely got repaired....for higher levels that more a problem but even then tehre is a solution... it is called wish :D ...use that trigger spell (dont know name for moment) on the wish spell to get active when spellbook got lost or destroyed, with the wish tot recover it. This seems me ea good thing :) *surely with the priuce that a full 7'th level spellbook or wso will cost*
Tenadros 05-16-07, 07:32 PM	This is why my good friend the lich effectively turned his spell book into a minor artifact stored inside of an lead vault which was a slightly less minor artifact which was completely buried inside a mountain with no entrances as soon as he was able. (you might could say he was a bit paranoid.)
ServanWolf 05-16-07, 07:44 PM	and how could that lich then read his book :p? and since when you can create an artifact???
Luis_Dragunov 05-16-07, 07:53 PM	The Wizard doesn't cease to exist. They still have skillpoints, armed and unarmed combat etc... They're no more rendered null than a fighter without equipment. d4 HD, minimal AB, low AC (since they're not trained on any armor and, oh, they ain't got no spells)... so they're high level.. commoners? And you're kidding about fighters, right? You know that a club is basically a heavy branch. A fighter can just lean down and pick up anything - even a heavy stone - and make an improvised weapon out of it. @Zock Castlestorm - Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers and other spellcasters have pretty much the same power as a Wizard (and, in fact, it has been proven that Druids and Clerics are far superior) and they don't have to spend a great majority of their gp earnings protecting their CLASS ABILITIES. it is called wish ...use that trigger spell (dont know name for moment) on the wish spell to get active when spellbook got lost or destroyed, with the wish tot recover it. This seems me ea good thing *surely with the priuce that a full 7'th level spellbook or wso will cost* Wish is a lvl9 spell. When you're lvl17+, then you can easily afford various copies of your spellbook, as well as strength it. What about when you're lvl6? Oops, where's my wish now?
ServanWolf 05-16-07, 08:08 PM	you can buy those spells :p but you could also let you spellbook become a wondrous item ^^ with spells like cone of cold or fireball or portect from energies to protect it from damage...or better for a full spellbook :p ... Temporal stasis :D and for lower level guys mmhmh ... oiled hides can protect it from water and cold...and a chain from stealing.
InkBlot 05-16-07, 09:18 PM	If a wizard loses her spellbook, she does not lose all her spells. She can still put the spells she currently has prepared into a new book. These are most likely to be her most important and usefull spells too.
Fiddlypoppin 05-16-07, 09:26 PM	In previous editions, there was a distinction made between spellbooks and "travelling" spellbooks. In 3.x, they're all the same, but as many people have said, the advice is wise to take to heart. Have your main spellbook, which you keep locked up and exceptionally safe back at your home base. Do NOT, under any conditions, take this with you on a dungeon delve or other adventure. Instead, have a smaller spellbook that contains the spells you're most likely to need (I mean, how often do you need a copy of Simulacrum ready to memorize?) and just take that with you. Keep it small and succinct, and don't bother putting too much effort into saving it--it's not going to be worth it. If you do that, then even if everything else goes to crap, you can just head back to ye olde Wizard's Tower, or Mage's Lab, or whatever you have and have all of your spells right at your fingertips. The only reason that this tactic wouldn't work would be if the DM is using it for a plot device (in which case you're likely to get it back, or get a better one) or if he's just a sadistic SoB. Oh, and make sure that your DM is going to let you have plenty of down time to copy spells, etc. and isn't going to go out of his way to give you grief. I've played a Wizard in just such a situation, and I just kept going from one pain in the backside to the next. If your DM is likely to go after your spellbook (or even your familiar, for that matter), you're better off playing a Sorcerer instead.
Nadaka 05-16-07, 09:42 PM	Also note that the secret page spell can make a backup spellbook at no cost. However, it is vulnerable to dispelling and can be found by foes via detect magic. Its probably a good idea to make a few of these books and leave them with friends/allies in case your main book ever gets destroyed, stolen. Also note that the spellcraft DC to prepare a spell from a captured spellbook is trivial at later levels.
Jell_Moo 05-16-07, 10:47 PM	It is really only a considerable weakness at lower levels, as it becomes very easy to take the required precautions at the higher levels. But during those low levels, it is *very* serious. The flip side is that it remains an issue if the DM runs the game with zero downtime. Of course, if this is the case, the Wizard will be suffering quite a bit anyway, so the spellbook issue is almost secondary.
Krusk 05-16-07, 11:48 PM	@Zock Castlestorm - Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers and other spellcasters have pretty much the same power as a Wizard (and, in fact, it has been proven that Druids and Clerics are far superior) and they don't have to spend a great majority of their gp earnings protecting their CLASS ABILITIES. It is actually quite up to debate whether a druid and cleric are "far superior" to a wizard. From what i personally have seen in real life and from what i have gathered from the internet, a properly built wizard trumps all classes by a long shot. As for sorcerers, they are simply easier to play wizards, that are less powerful. It is sort of what you give the new guy who wants to be a mage to play, while he is still figuring out the rules.
The_sleeper1 05-17-07, 12:17 AM	It is actually quite up to debate whether a druid and cleric are "far superior" to a wizard. From what i personally have seen in real life and from what i have gathered from the internet, a properly built wizard trumps all classes by a long shot. As for sorcerers, they are simply easier to play wizards, that are less powerful. It is sort of what you give the new guy who wants to be a mage to play, while he is still figuring out the rules. I find in many cases that sorcerers are more powerful, esp where you need a large volume of casting of the same few combat spells (most games). I think the best option is to just get or make a boboco's blesed book, 6500gp to make each and then you can transcribe spells for free instead of the normal 100gp per page. With 1000 pages it saves you from paying 100,000 gp in transcription costs.
Krusk 05-17-07, 07:22 AM	a couple boccobs books, hidden around is usually the way to go. arcane mark each, and then hide them all over. There are also feats to create extraplanar hiding places, which may or may not be a good place to stash them, i havent looked into those spells too much.
Luis_Dragunov 05-17-07, 09:45 AM	All very good advice! Thanks a bunch, everyone!
rex_subterrae1008 05-17-07, 12:21 PM	In previous editions, there was a distinction made between spellbooks and "travelling" spellbooks. In 3.x, they're all the same, but as many people have said, the advice is wise to take to heart. Have your main spellbook, which you keep locked up and exceptionally safe back at your home base. Do NOT, under any conditions, take this with you on a dungeon delve or other adventure. Instead, have a smaller spellbook that contains the spells you're most likely to need (I mean, how often do you need a copy of Simulacrum ready to memorize?) and just take that with you. Keep it small and succinct, and don't bother putting too much effort into saving it--it's not going to be worth it. If you do that, then even if everything else goes to crap, you can just head back to ye olde Wizard's Tower, or Mage's Lab, or whatever you have and have all of your spells right at your fingertips. The only problem I would have with leaving a spare book at your tower or whatever else you use as a base, is if (like my halfling Wizard) your wizard is strictly a wanderer, with no place to call home... By the way, this may be a stupid question, but what does Simulacrum do? I don't know all the spells yet, considering my halfling's still Lvl 1...
teshen 05-17-07, 12:31 PM	Abrakadabra... Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm)
Fiddlypoppin 05-17-07, 09:42 PM	Abrakadabra... Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) Yup, and as you can see, it's not exactly dungeon friendly. Useful? Of course, but you really won't be casting it all that often, and a 12 hour casting time limits your options just slightly. Definitely save that one for downtime at home. As for the wandering thing, you'll want a home base if you play a Wizard, honestly. Other classes can get by without a good, solid place to store their stuff and hang around between adventures, but a Wizard needs somewhere to research spells, craft magic items, cast really long and complicated spells, craft alchemy items, etc. ad infinitum. You don't strictly need it, and can do just fine without one, but you'd be missing out on a lot of the fun stuff that a Wizard has to offer.
Bedlamtom 05-18-07, 03:23 PM	I don't understand how making a copy of a creature helps with your spellbook...unless you tattoo the spells onto the creature. Similicrum only makes creatures.
Ralvuimego 05-18-07, 04:40 PM	He was simply stating one of those spells you don't keep in your dungeon crawling spellbook (As it isn't exacly useful in those situations to have it in your spellbook), not something to protect your main spellbook. Another example would be Guards and Wards... a useful spell for protecting your wizardly residence, but not even worth the consideration while you're out adventuring.
Tenadros 05-18-07, 04:43 PM	and how could that lich then read his book :p? and since when you can create an artifact??? 1) made a rod which allowed him to teleport through the anti teleportation magic wards, keyed to the inside of his lead box. 2) It was 2nd edition, and the artifacts thing was a figure of speech. As in "he put so many spells into the things it might as well have been a freakin artifact."
lunarflare 05-18-07, 10:37 PM	Do what I do! At around level 10, spend some cash to make an intelligent item out of your spellbook! :) You can get hold monster for your intelligent spellbook for just 6.5k.. You could also talk to your DM about allowing more spells for it! I got mine to let the book have teleport 1/day. So if some meanie tries for your book while you're out blasting some innocent kobold, Hold monster then*poof* the book is gone to it's arranged hiding place, and there's a frozen dude just waiting for your attention when you get back.
FloppyLlama 05-18-07, 11:28 PM	d4 HD, minimal AB, low AC (since they're not trained on any armor and, oh, they ain't got no spells)... so they're high level.. commoners? And you're kidding about fighters, right? You know that a club is basically a heavy branch. A fighter can just lean down and pick up anything - even a heavy stone - and make an improvised weapon out of it. You do realize that at levels where a Wizard can't perform at all due to minimal BAB (d4 HD and low AC shouldn't be a big deal unless you're foolish enough to run into the front lines) a club isn't going to do much? Damage Reduction and the like take care of that. The penalty for an improvised weapon makes it even worse.
TheAnthroDM 05-19-07, 12:37 AM	I am known for divesting Wizards of their spellbooks. But they always get another one of equal value. (Often with either powerful, more numerous, or unique spells.)
rex_subterrae1008 05-19-07, 01:34 PM	Well, I suppose it could be possible to carry around a few Prank Spellbooks to keep anyone from stealing the real spellbook... Check out http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12428204&postcount=226 for details... lol.