Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:11 AM	I originally posted this in ignorance over at "DM Rules Counseling," I being new to the boards. The next few posts are a mass exodus from that thread. Any assistance would be appreciated. :) The only two responses on the other board up to now I've presented here, even with some crazy reverse-quoting thingy. Thanks again. Hey everyone. I'm designing a race of wolves who have been awakened by a divine-level and version of the spell. I'm looking for ways to circumvent the handless issue, but not with magical items which give them effective hands, neither with polymorphing. (As a racial feature, I've given them the effect of an unbeatable spell resistance to anything which will alter their shape, as after spell immunity. They hate being something other than what they are.) Their "clerics" (I'm designing three or so basic classes for this race) prepare their spells, for which I've modified the Cleric's per-diem, and they have a more limited class spell list. They have some of the travelling effects such as air walk and water walk, and most if not all of the healing and divination spells. The majority of offensive spells have been cut out, along with most of the utility spells, especially those with expensive material components (such as the Symbol spells). They can spontaneously substitute cure spells, just as a cleric can. I've thrown out turning undead and domain spells and benefits, and as a substitute given them searing light, sunbeam and sunburst as spontaneously cast spell-like abilities, using class levels as caster levels. They start out with searing light only, then increase in castings per day as sunbeam unlocks, then finally sunburst. As a wolf they cannot carry money or any possessions not also worn. Clerics (and only clerics) of this order cannot have others serve exchequer for them, and clerics (again only clerics) partake in spoils only if there are items useful to him. If, however, a store of money is reserved for the curative needs of the party, the wolf cleric may benefit from it or use it to benefit others. Also, I've limited their magic item slots to seven (ears, neck, "forearms," and hind "forelegs"). Since he has no hands many checks almost always automatically fail (for which I have a list somewhere), though he could probably so simple things such as turning a doorknob after some effort. I was thinking of giving him supernatural abilities to heal or resurrect, after the Healer starter class from the Miniatures Handbook. (In case all other party members are dead he could at least raise one and get the necessary materials by that character.) I would limit this to only once per month or so for raise dead and resurrection spells, and then only if the material component cannot reasonably be obtained. If it can, he must use the spell and not the spell-like ability, and must make use of the diamonds. The only times he really needs costly components are in resurrection. The others I think I'll eschew entirely for spells on his class list, or have them be cheap ones found in nature. Keep in mind that these wolves live as a tribe in the wilds and rarely have contact with civilized peoples, and they work to rid the wilds of undead and evil outsiders (and insiders, haha). As clerics they should be able to resurrect, and if they never mine diamonds themselves and rarely have contact with the people who do, how can I believably require it of them? So, thoughts? Is he too powerful? Is he too weak? Also keep in mind that I designed this class and race with certain limitations in mind, such as no weapons other than bite. I also want him to be different from a traditional cleric, stronger in some areas, weaker in others, but not weaker overall.
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:12 AM	first response It might just be better to switch to a Spell points method of casting. With that casting spell with Still spell would just cost more points to cast and is better for races with no hands. Don't worry to much about skills. Most would matter in D&D with exception to craft and don't require hands. They could use their teeth to open doors or the open/close spell.
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:12 AM	Weird, the whole post is inverted! Hahaha! This was the second and last response. It's hard to say whether it's too powerful or weak without knowing its level adjustment. It is clearly not a standard-type race. Quote - Leonis472: I've given them the effect of an unbeatable spell resistance to anything which will alter their shape, as after spell immunity. They hate being something other than what they are.) This could be a mistake for you. You're sort of making a character and personality decision for every single member of the race. Deciding beforehand that absolutely no member of the species can stand to have their form altered in even the slightest way is akin to adding a line under the Elf race that reads, "All Elves hate Orcs and must attack any Orc or Half-Orc on sight." It limits character options and creates a mechanical limitation that is even more restrictive than an "Always" alignment entry. Maybe a +2 bonus on saves against Polymorph effects? Quote - Leonis472: I designed this class and race with certain limitations in mind, such as no weapons other than bite. What are their claws, then, little rubber nubs? What if one straps a magical sword to its forearm or forehead? That sounds ridiculous, but if I was a player of such a beast I would certainly want to give something like that a go. Quote - Leonis472: As a wolf they cannot carry money or any possessions not also worn. This entry seems either wrong or redundant. What about backpacks, or money pouches? If my wolf-guy puts on a backpack that contains armor and 40 gold pieces, do those fall out? If not, then this is redundant, as it's the same way with any creature, except those with interdimensional holes in which to store possessions. Quote - Leonis472: I would limit this to only once per month or so for raise dead and resurrection spells, and then only if the material component cannot reasonably be obtained. It's tough to balance a spell-like ability available at low level that is equivalent to a 7th-level Cleric spell. Imagine a first-level character that can cast Chain Lightning as a 13th-level caster once per month. He won't get much use out of it in most situations, and so shouldn't increase his ECL, right? But it can be used to take out, in one hit mind you, any monster of appropriate CR or as many as 4 higher. This allows him to take on one incredibly difficult encounter like cake, but does not make him any better in any other situation.Also, how do you define "reasonably obtained?" Is that, "does not have it on him?" "Is not in the last town he visited?" "Doesn't have the money for it?" "Is too lazy to get a job and get the money for it?" Logically, it could always be reasonably obtained, because he should always have the component for it. It's illogical to have the spell to cast whenever you want it and not have the component for it, but then say you can't "reasonably obtain" it when you need to. "Try preparing," would be the words out of my mouth if I DMed in this situation. Quote - Leonis472: Is he too powerful? Is he too weak? You didn't give a single statistic, ability, level adjustment, modifier, or anything to help anybody balance in any way. Could you post these, please? It would make it infinitely easier. Preferably in the format the PHB and MM use to present races.
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:14 AM	Maybe a +2 bonus on saves against Polymorph effects?Agreed, for every reason you've listed. You're absolutely right.What are their claws, then, little rubber nubs? What if one straps a magical sword to its forearm or forehead? That sounds ridiculous, but if I was a player of such a beast I would certainly want to give something like that a go.I own a husky, and her "nails" (they're not claws in the least) do me no injury no matter how swiftly she stands to place her forelegs on us. Besides, only a bite attack is in the Wolf entry in the Monster Manual (p.283), which I use because they are still wolves, after all. As to strapping on a magical whatever, the spirit of the law (there is not yet any letter) is to preserve the wolf's wild nobility, i.e. to keep it looking cool. Anyway, wolves are usually pretty heavy, maybe a slam attack. In addition, this issue (weapons) regards clerics only. The other classes will get to have the equivalent of enchanted weapons or stronger natural ones. Clerics, however, get offensive magic in the form of light-themed spell-like abilities. More in this post and others.This entry seems either wrong or redundant. What about backpacks, or money pouches?A wolf with a backpack? Not only would that look stupid but it would also raise questions. Anyway, a cleric mostly foreswears money, but other wolf classes can have others hold cash for them. They would need their companions to buy and sell for them anyway. How would a merchant react to a wolf plopping a bunch of gold down? Awkward. The wolf should be relatively incognito. As a racial spell-like ability I'm thinking of giving him disguise self, usable and dismissable at will, but only to change coat color and cover things such as earrings or bracers to keep from questions (minor changes only).It's tough to balance a spell-like ability available . . .True. But I'm asking about both a race and a class. The racial boons aren't much, and this raising ability would be available only to the wolf cleric class (and even then at a high level, comparable to when a Healer gets hers), in addition to the light-themed spells. The others (potentially a barbarian/fighter theme and a roguish theme) have their own class features, and in addition a prestige class (diviner/druid tribal leader).Also, how do you define "reasonably obtained?" Is that, "does not have it on him?" "Is not in the last town he visited?" "Doesn't have the money for it?" "Is too lazy to get a job and get the money for it?" Logically, it could always be reasonably obtained, because he should always have the component for it. It's illogical to have the spell to cast whenever you want it and not have the component for it, but then say you can't "reasonably obtain" it when you need to. "Try preparing," would be the words out of my mouth if I DMed in this situation.The way I read the Healer's entry, she doesn't need material components when she uses her once-weekly class skill to resurrect. I may be wrong about that. In addition, for believability, this tribe should be able to resurrect its own once in a while without diamonds. The tribe is and should be autonomous, choosing to interact but remaining secretive. And as for work, who would hire a wolf, even disguised as a dog? What services could a wolf render to an employer? And a year's Profession checks wouldn't yield the cost of diamonds. The only remaining option is further adventuring, but this is idea is for last resorts if left the only survivor. If an adventure which would provide the required amount is fitting only for a party of adventurers, it defeats the purpose of the safeguard. Another idea was requiring any wolf of this tribe secure a pendant, a small statuette of the wolf himself formed in a ritual like that of gaining a familiar. This "totem" has different abilities for each wolf class, but for the cleric it serves as the divine focus and can absorb the magical essences of costly material components and store them indefinitely. When the spell requiring them is cast, the energy is released and serves exactly as the real McCoy. This is sounding much better to me now, as his share of the money would otherwise go to his companions. Four adventurers would divide spoils into three portions, which isn't a good idea.You didn't give a single statistic, ability, level adjustment, modifier, or anything to help anybody balance in any way. Could you post these, please? It would make it infinitely easier. Preferably in the format the PHB and MM use to present races.Perhaps that was a mistake. I have all of that, actually, but the general questions are those I'm having the most difficulty with. I've worked a great deal on these by myself, but these are among my greatest difficulties, so of course I've only asked regarding them. These are the things I can't handle. For racial abilities, use the Wolf entry in the Monster Manual, page 283. Add the spell-like ability disguise self, duration "until dismissed," usable and dismissable at will, only hide worn objects, change coat coloring and perhaps small changes in size. No racial hit dice (come from classes), keep trip special attack, feats and skills as racial bonuses. Assume racial questions refer to this. Half the questions in my previous post were regarding the class, more on that next post. One sec . . .
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:15 AM	It might just be better to switch to a Spell points method of casting. With that casting spell with Still spell would just cost more points to cast and is better for races with no hands.I'll look into it! Thanks for the advice. :)Don't worry to much about skills. Most would matter in D&D with exception to craft and don't require hands. They could use their teeth to open doors or the open/close spell.I don't know how to justify open/close or knock. Perhaps for the roguish class, but otherwise the tribe has next to no intimate contact with human lands. How can they be trained in such things? And if you're thinking of door handles, the "L shaped" ones, those any animal tall enough can open. The true knob-shaped ones (almost entirely ball-like) neither paws nor teeth can easily open. They're screwed if it's locked. Use this as a reference: ". . . their paws are no more dexterous than any wolf’s. Checks made for Disable Device, Forgery, Open Lock, Perform (Wind and String Instruments and Keyboard), Profession, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope almost always automatically fail, and certain instances of those made in Climb, Craft and Ride often fail as well." For anyone wondering about ladders, we had a collie who could climb chain-link fences by inserting her paws into the gaps in the links. She scaled a seven-foot fence on more than one occasion, though not without effort.
Leonis472 07-13-07, 01:15 AM	I don't know how to divide this better, but here's the racial stats. Hit Dice: by Class Initiative: +0 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: (+Dex mod., +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft. Special Attacks: Trip Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Disguise Self, Lupine Totem Saves: by Class, +2 against shapeshifting Abilities: -2 Cha: no one trusts a wolf. Skills (as racial bonuses): Hide+2, Listen+3, Move Silently+3, Spot+3, Survival+1* Feats: Track, Weapon Focus (Bite) Environment: Nomadic, mostly Temperate Forests Organization: Homeland, Encampment, Solitary, Pair, or Pack Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf. Skills: *Wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent Now for the class in general. I have to convert stats and such, which will take time, none of which is set in stone besides. Hit Dice: d8 Alignment: any good Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: none: cannot wear or wield Spells: prepared as Cleric, Aura: good, see detect evil, p. 218 PH Bonus Language: Celestial* Skill Points: 1st Lv: (2+Int)x4 – 2+Int No turning, no domain spells or benefits. Substituted by the following: Spell-Like Abilities: Searing Light, as 3rd Level Spell, unlocked at level one, usable once per day, increasing at each level 1/day to a maximum of 6/day at level six. Sunbeam, as 7th Level Spell, unlocked at level nine, usable once daily, increasing at each level 1/day to a maximum of 6/day at level fourteen. Sunburst, as 8th Level Spell, unlocked at level thirteen, usable once daily, increasing at each level 1/day to a maximum of 6/day at level 18. Limited spell selection, mostly to healing and divination spells, some utility spells like water walk and air walk, few others. Spells per day are currently exactly the same as the Cleric's table, sans the +1 for domain spells, which this class doesn't have. Costly components are "absorbed" into the Lupine Totem (see in previous posts), the magical essence of which is released at casting. The only case in which a wolf can raise the dead through that spell or resurrect is once per month, and then only on another wolf member of his tribe. (This allows for their background and necessary autonomy.) I've based the light-themed spell-like abilities on those per day that a Druid, Wizard or Sorceror could manage. I'd like to keep the utility of a Cleric for all of its hallmarks, but in all this too liberal is as bad as too limited, as you all know. Domain Spontaneity could allow for all this, and I've forfeited spontaneous curing, but even still, having both spell-like abilities and spells means he can prepare all healing spells and keep his offensive power. I'm somewhat at a loss. Edit: I know I can't have it both ways, but what can I take away? I don't want him to be overpowered, just competent both as a cleric and offensively against undead.
Gamer1981 07-13-07, 12:13 PM	I think this is a really cool idea and totally plan on stealing it. Preparing spells: The wolves’ world is a world of smells and sounds and limited sight, though they might have good sight they don't rely on it as much as humans do. Their spell prep would be centered on odors and other scents, things carried on the winds from their gods. The sounds of their environment would be used as well in preparing their spells. Magic items: Their use of magic items could be tied to a couple of things. My dogs like to disguise their scent by rolling on things. I think this same concept could be used by the wolf Clerics to imbibe the magical properties of magic items. Somehow their rolling or other physical contact with these items imbibes the properties into their coats and allows them to use the items. Wolves would not wear items. I think this would be a lot of fun. Thanks for the idea.
Leonis472 07-14-07, 01:37 AM	I think this is a really cool idea and totally plan on stealing it. Preparing spells: The wolves’ world is a world of smells and sounds and limited sight, though they might have good sight they don't rely on it as much as humans do. Their spell prep would be centered on odors and other scents, things carried on the winds from their gods. The sounds of their environment would be used as well in preparing their spells.Thanks! I really like it myself. An intelligent race of quadrupedal undead-fighters. There's still much to be done, but I'm almost finished with a prototype of the class in detail. For spell preparation, the wolves of this tribe actually have their own written language. They use their nails or claws or whatever to stain stone walls. They also leave marks in clay by pressing their nails in. In either case, the result is a writing system much like the cuneiform writing of the Mesopotamians. I call it Wolven, which in practice is similar to the blink dog's language. Not quite the barks, yaps, whines and growls therein described (page 28, MM), but I like to think of Gnoll and Worg-speech as the Orc of canid speech, and if this is a fair simile, then "Blink Dog" is as Common and finally Wolven is as Elven. Anyway, this tribe of wolves reveres a sun god (hence the light theme, and no, not Pelor). They don't carry around a prayerbook, but they meditate on something called the Sun Disk. Their tribe's first forefather made it with the help of the god who awakened these wolves. He wrote in the "cuneiform" method described earlier and use these soft clay tablets as the material components in stone shape spells. The disk records the spiritual doctrine of their race, and through meditation, the tribal wolf clerics see the disk as if it was right before them. This is how a cleric regains spells in my "grand design," hahaha, though meditating on natural smells and sounds would be a great idea.Magic items: Their use of magic items could be tied to a couple of things. My dogs like to disguise their scent by rolling on things. I think this same concept could be used by the wolf Clerics to imbibe the magical properties of magic items. Somehow their rolling or other physical contact with these items imbibes the properties into their coats and allows them to use the items. Wolves would not wear items. I think this would be a lot of fun. Thanks for the idea.You're welcome, first of all. I'm glad someone likes it. And how would you govern this imbibing? Is the magic item permanently disenchanted? If he wants to imbibe something else and has to give something up, what happens to the magical essence powering the item? I don't agree. Anyway, I prefer to have them wear the magical items myself, reminiscent of Red XIII's look back in Final Fantasy VII. (Ah, the memories.) Besides, the racial disguise self spell-like ability would prevent too many questions.
periscope 07-14-07, 02:55 AM	There was a magic item in savage species: Gloves of man or something like that. They look like leather gloves with a large hand opening. If someone were to insert a tentacle, paw, or other appendage (plz no immature comments) into it, they were able to use them as hands and counted as having hands (as the gloves had a thumb and 4 fingers). Another could be a mage hand effect. There is a magic item worn like a necklace that allows mage hand at will, and its a necklace/amulet so it can be worn by a wolf. I dont see why putting a pack on their back is silly. Riding dogs can do it (saddlebags) so a wolf should be able to do it (though it would have to be custom sized for them). Just put the pouches with the stuff they'll need to get to the fastest (money, potions, etc) either on their forepaws (in a pouch strapped to the leg) or halfway down the back to above the hind legs, so it will be easily reachable. The rest they would need help to pack, but that shouldnt be a problem.
Leonis472 07-14-07, 03:48 AM	There was a magic item in savage species: Gloves of man or something like that. They look like leather gloves with a large hand opening. If someone were to insert a tentacle, paw, or other appendage (plz no immature comments) into it, they were able to use them as hands and counted as having hands (as the gloves had a thumb and 4 fingers).I've heard of them. Savage Species was a source of guidance, but not inspiration if you catch my meaning. Like the rest of the books they don't seem to like much but the standard races, even recommending we not try something like this. They were right about it being a challenge, but I like challenges and am committed to make it work without compromising its integrity of believability and theme. I want to embrace their limitations. They are different for a purpose, and to negate the limitations is to negate the singularity design provides. I want to keep them wolves for the most part. Thanks, but no thanks. Good idea though. Side note: I have a few Gnoll characters without the standard racial hit dice. (Gasp!) I want to be able to play a civilized Gnoll without having a +3 level adjustment. I think I took one or two things off besides as well to make it a +0, but it wasn't much. I also made him a runt, as in not seven feet tall. The other Gnolls rejected him, and because he wasn't strong he fostered his intelligence and became a Wizard, eventually leading a group of Gnolls into a good-aligned faction, like that of the good-aligned Drow one reads of, though where exactly I've forgotten . . . Just because some of us want to play characters from outside the envelope doesn't mean we need to take a +3 level adjustment penalty. Another could be a mage hand effect. There is a magic item worn like a necklace that allows mage hand at will, and its a necklace/amulet so it can be worn by a wolf. I dont see why putting a pack on their back is silly. Riding dogs can do it (saddlebags) so a wolf should be able to do it (though it would have to be custom sized for them). Just put the pouches with the stuff they'll need to get to the fastest (money, potions, etc) either on their forepaws (in a pouch strapped to the leg) or halfway down the back to above the hind legs, so it will be easily reachable. The rest they would need help to pack, but that shouldnt be a problem.The item you're thinking of is in the DMG page 258. It's a mummified elf hand, called Hand of the Mage, allowing mage hand at will. I don't see how they'd stomach severing an elf's hand or how they'd be able to mummify one. Even if they bought one they'd probably be grossed out wearing it. If a particulary macabre wolf wants one, fine, but it goes against my whole theme and the rest of the tribe may excommunicate him on principle. They love elves, as typically do all good-leaning races. Pass. Besides moral grounds, I again want to keep them mostly standard wolves, with all the applicable limitations. Something like this would be the exception to the rule. :) Well, I guess it's just me, but a wolf with a little baggie; bleagh. The arm and leg pouches are pretty cool though , stuff he can get to easily and pouches easily hidden. If anything, those might be nice. Finally, fellow party members can help by keeping their money and possessions for them. Ideally, not every party member will be a wolf like this, just one: the rare occurrence of a wolf of this tribe working with humanoids for some prophecy or something. A tribal wolf adventuring with humanoids would be the exception to the rule, and the "rule" exists to provide racial backstory and individual character substance. Without substance this whole idea is cheapened, and making them too human voids that substance. In addition, tribal wolves don't need anyone other than the other wolves. But because they are adventuring with humans, they get to do things differently, some for better, some for worse.
periscope 07-14-07, 11:59 PM	I've heard of them. Savage Species was a source of guidance, but not inspiration if you catch my meaning. Like the rest of the books they don't seem to like much but the standard races, even recommending we not try something like this. They were right about it being a challenge, but I like challenges and am committed to make it work without compromising its integrity of believability and theme. I want to embrace their limitations. They are different for a purpose, and to negate the limitations is to negate the singularity design provides. I want to keep them wolves for the most part. Thanks, but no thanks. Good idea though. The item you're thinking of is in the DMG page 258. It's a mummified elf hand, called Hand of the Mage, allowing mage hand at will. I don't see how they'd stomach severing an elf's hand or how they'd be able to mummify one. Even if they bought one they'd probably be grossed out wearing it. If a particulary macabre wolf wants one, fine, but it goes against my whole theme and the rest of the tribe may excommunicate him on principle. They love elves, as typically do all good-leaning races. Pass. Besides moral grounds, I again want to keep them mostly standard wolves, with all the applicable limitations. Something like this would be the exception to the rule. :) Well, I guess it's just me, but a wolf with a little baggie; bleagh. The arm and leg pouches are pretty cool though , stuff he can get to easily and pouches easily hidden. If anything, those might be nice. Finally, fellow party members can help by keeping their money and possessions for them. Ideally, not every party member will be a wolf like this, just one: the rare occurrence of a wolf of this tribe working with humanoids for some prophecy or something. A tribal wolf adventuring with humanoids would be the exception to the rule, and the "rule" exists to provide racial backstory and individual character substance. Without substance this whole idea is cheapened, and making them too human voids that substance. In addition, tribal wolves don't need anyone other than the other wolves. But because they are adventuring with humans, they get to do things differently, some for better, some for worse. I do thank you for expressing appreciation for my ideas. On the Hand of the Mage: 1) Adventurers are never typical 2) PC rule: No matter how its described any item can look however the heck you want it to (within reason). Therefore the hand could also easy be a shiny pebble or a rabbits foot (cross that with a stone of good luck and see if anyone laughs).
SmiloDan 07-15-07, 01:08 AM	Just give them a class like the Healer from Mini HB, but change it so they can cast any spell on the list without preparation (like a Warmage does) and change it so they are Spell-like abilities, so there is no need for material components. I also made up a Hedgewitch core class which is like a healing version of the Warlock, but I don't have it handy right now. But maybe something along those lines. Invocations are SLAs, so no material components. But one thing to remember is that D&D PC power levels are strongly tied to gear. You don't want to make a really flavorful PC race that nobody is gonna want to play because it's crippled by its inability to wear or use gear. There's no reason a PC wolf can't use saddlebags if it's got an Int of 3 or more. Sure, it would look a bit unusual, but most PCs look unusual in some way.