Ability scores and Campaign Power level, where do you play? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability scores and Campaign Power level, where do you play? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Electricbee
02-10-07, 11:56 AM I've noticed that a lot of the optimizations and the character builds veer pretty far away from the range of a 25 point buy (or the 4d6 roll and go that should create a similar array of scores)

I've DM'd for groups of players who were bitterly hostile and convinced a character was irredeemably broken if they didn't have at least one 18 and one or two other stats in the 16+ range.

Likewise they were appalled if the character had any stat below 10; a negative modifier apparently makes any character unplayable. (unless you are using a point buy, then you can buy something irrelevant down to a 3 to upgrade your other game mechanic affecting stats)

A lot of the optimized builds and munchy goodness originates in PCs with access to extreme ability scores. For example, if I have enough abilities to power my class (wis, str and cha for cleric, dex for rogue, int for wiz etc) AND have a con of 16 to 20, my HD type is a lot less relevant, my HP are more dependent on an ability score than a die roll anyway (on average HPs only increase 1 HP per level with each die size increase).

Broken builds seem to originate in ability scores that bypass the consequences of choosing a class which has abilities and limitations built into it. A cleric is a slow class, a cleric with a large dex bonus (in addition to a high wis for spell casting, and decent str for melee and cha for turning or divine feats, and con and int that are at least OK for skills and HP) can wear lighter armor and not suffer the lack of mobility that is one of the tradeoffs built into the class.

It also seems to up end the game in other ways ... Classes that only need one or high ability scores to shine can shore up class weaknesses with great scores in abilities that aren't prime. Classes that require a broader spread of abilities (such as monk) become a lot more playable with fewer choices and sacrifices.

With all of this in mind, what ability scores do your characters or the characters in your campaigns have?

what methods do you all use determine ability scores?

Do you think ability scores creeping upwards is the cause of the up spiral in power, or an effect of some other cause?
megageek12
02-10-07, 12:30 PM So you're saying casters are ubers because they have good ability scores? And most of the "uber" caster builds have numerous stat-boosting items. I roll 4d6, as per the primary method in the dmg. And all stats are important to every class in some way.
KirkBb
02-10-07, 12:39 PM Whats my power level?

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!
Gecon
02-10-07, 01:25 PM Well, you obviously have a gang of Powergamers (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html) as players.

I would say that thats ok.

Just give the opponents likewise uber stats, in fact even more than the players get as they are not THAT optimized anyway, then it should balance itself out nicely.

IMHO casters don't benefit from uber stats as much as warriors, OTOH it wont help them much in 1vs1 PvP against a caster.
Coridan
02-10-07, 01:37 PM OTOH there are some classes (Paladin) that require a decent score in each stat that a 25 point buy just can't accomplish.

I generally run 25 point buy in my games (I hate pallys anyway) unless I know the game is gonna be a tad tougher. My players are starting to appreciate their slimmer victories more than just wiping everything out.
fatal error
02-10-07, 02:01 PM My group usually runs 28 point buy. Gives MAD classes a little more room to maneuver and lets you get an 18 and not default to 10 for the rest of your scores. Also, standard point buy does not allow you to get extra points for going below an 8, I don't think.
FrostHammer
02-10-07, 02:58 PM I prefer 32 point buys because I enjoy being able to play MAD characters. If stuck with a 25, 28 point buy, I'd probably play Druid since they only need like 2 stats. Or some other spellcaster.
tiluvias99
02-10-07, 08:24 PM Whats my power level?

ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!You win the thread. In fact, you win every thread ever made. Rock on.
Ghenesh
02-10-07, 09:10 PM As DM i give the players two options:
1.- 28 points buy
2.- Roll 6 times 4d6 drop lowest, re-roll if you get something lower than 8.

Most spellcasters usually start with an 18 in the most relevant spellcasting ability score while most combatant characters usually take a pair of 16s and some 14s.

I have been playing with the same group for more than 5 years and as time passes powergaming has taken the table, now everyone try to optimizes as we get more splatbooks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Electricbee 02-10-07, 11:56 AM	I've noticed that a lot of the optimizations and the character builds veer pretty far away from the range of a 25 point buy (or the 4d6 roll and go that should create a similar array of scores) I've DM'd for groups of players who were bitterly hostile and convinced a character was irredeemably broken if they didn't have at least one 18 and one or two other stats in the 16+ range. Likewise they were appalled if the character had any stat below 10; a negative modifier apparently makes any character unplayable. (unless you are using a point buy, then you can buy something irrelevant down to a 3 to upgrade your other game mechanic affecting stats) A lot of the optimized builds and munchy goodness originates in PCs with access to extreme ability scores. For example, if I have enough abilities to power my class (wis, str and cha for cleric, dex for rogue, int for wiz etc) AND have a con of 16 to 20, my HD type is a lot less relevant, my HP are more dependent on an ability score than a die roll anyway (on average HPs only increase 1 HP per level with each die size increase). Broken builds seem to originate in ability scores that bypass the consequences of choosing a class which has abilities and limitations built into it. A cleric is a slow class, a cleric with a large dex bonus (in addition to a high wis for spell casting, and decent str for melee and cha for turning or divine feats, and con and int that are at least OK for skills and HP) can wear lighter armor and not suffer the lack of mobility that is one of the tradeoffs built into the class. It also seems to up end the game in other ways ... Classes that only need one or high ability scores to shine can shore up class weaknesses with great scores in abilities that aren't prime. Classes that require a broader spread of abilities (such as monk) become a lot more playable with fewer choices and sacrifices. With all of this in mind, what ability scores do your characters or the characters in your campaigns have? what methods do you all use determine ability scores? Do you think ability scores creeping upwards is the cause of the up spiral in power, or an effect of some other cause?
megageek12 02-10-07, 12:30 PM	So you're saying casters are ubers because they have good ability scores? And most of the "uber" caster builds have numerous stat-boosting items. I roll 4d6, as per the primary method in the dmg. And all stats are important to every class in some way.
KirkBb 02-10-07, 12:39 PM	Whats my power level? ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!
Gecon 02-10-07, 01:25 PM	Well, you obviously have a gang of Powergamers (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html) as players. I would say that thats ok. Just give the opponents likewise uber stats, in fact even more than the players get as they are not THAT optimized anyway, then it should balance itself out nicely. IMHO casters don't benefit from uber stats as much as warriors, OTOH it wont help them much in 1vs1 PvP against a caster.
Coridan 02-10-07, 01:37 PM	OTOH there are some classes (Paladin) that require a decent score in each stat that a 25 point buy just can't accomplish. I generally run 25 point buy in my games (I hate pallys anyway) unless I know the game is gonna be a tad tougher. My players are starting to appreciate their slimmer victories more than just wiping everything out.
fatal error 02-10-07, 02:01 PM	My group usually runs 28 point buy. Gives MAD classes a little more room to maneuver and lets you get an 18 and not default to 10 for the rest of your scores. Also, standard point buy does not allow you to get extra points for going below an 8, I don't think.
FrostHammer 02-10-07, 02:58 PM	I prefer 32 point buys because I enjoy being able to play MAD characters. If stuck with a 25, 28 point buy, I'd probably play Druid since they only need like 2 stats. Or some other spellcaster.
tiluvias99 02-10-07, 08:24 PM	Whats my power level? ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!You win the thread. In fact, you win every thread ever made. Rock on.
Ghenesh 02-10-07, 09:10 PM	As DM i give the players two options: 1.- 28 points buy 2.- Roll 6 times 4d6 drop lowest, re-roll if you get something lower than 8. Most spellcasters usually start with an 18 in the most relevant spellcasting ability score while most combatant characters usually take a pair of 16s and some 14s. I have been playing with the same group for more than 5 years and as time passes powergaming has taken the table, now everyone try to optimizes as we get more splatbooks.