about a lich monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

about a lich monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nebula
03-06-07, 07:00 AM according to the ph sometimes monk's unarmed attack is to be seen as a manifactured weapon or a natural attack.

the lich adds 1d8+5 to the damage of it's natural attack.

do you think that a lich monk should add 1d8+5 to his unarmed attack?
runestar
03-06-07, 07:18 AM Yeah, it should work.:)
The_Shaman
03-06-07, 07:38 AM "A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any)" - so I guess they might be different, but I can't be sure. IMO, you should be able to use it on your fists or just "charge" them for the 1st attack as a swift action. It should be like putting an enhancement spell on your natural weapon.

How are you doing this btw? I guess through enlightened fist?
Nebula
03-06-07, 08:42 AM it's not anything i'm playing. it was just a thread in another forum.
i thought you must chose: an unarmed attack, a natural weapon attack incresed of 1d8+5 damege or the touch attack (the latter only once a round).
another guys thought you can apply what ph says about monks unarmed attack, adding the 1d8+5 also to the unarmed attack.
travellersside
03-06-07, 09:13 AM "A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any)" - so I guess they might be different, but I can't be sure. IMO, you should be able to use it on your fists or just "charge" them for the 1st attack as a swift action. It should be like putting an enhancement spell on your natural weapon.

You missed the more important entry just above it. Emphasis mine.

A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round. If the base creature can use weapons, the lich retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any)...
If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a touch as a natural secondary attack, provided it has a way to make that attack

A monk's primary attack is the standard unarmed progression. In other words, you have the following options:

Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence.
Make a single lich-enhanced attack, doing a base damage as appropriate for a creature your size.
Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence, with a single off-hand attack doing lesser damage, but with the lich-enhancements. This off-hand attack is a secondary natural attack, which comes with its own penalties.

This is RAW.

Personally, I'd be happy to let it stack with full monk attack on the grounds that a lich monk is going to be very poor indeed except for the whole 'doesn't stay dead' bit - which doesn't help much if you die every time you enter melee.
But that's merely a sensible houserule.
Fallenangel359
03-06-07, 09:16 AM monk unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, an unarmed attack, and a natural attack all at the same time.
Anything that boosts the natural attack will boost the monk's strike.

Also remember, any spell like effects that can be applied through mellee touch attacks can simultaneously be applied through unarmed attacks that do damage.

If you want to be a real bastard about it, pick up one level of dread necromancer, and add another d8+1 to your damage, once per round.

I'm currently running a gestalt game, where the arcane caster is a dreadnecromancer/ war mage jade pheonix mage, and we moddified jade pheonix mage so it does NOT give martial maneuvers, nor does it give the one stance at level 5, however, it does not require martial maneuvers to enter.

It works well.

Of course, its nasty when he casts a inflict spell, then sacrifices a topend spell, and uses sudden maximize to maximize those dice, then punches with a gauntlet, and bam...
runestar
03-06-07, 09:24 AM * Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence, with a single off-hand attack doing lesser damage, but with the lich-enhancements. This off-hand attack is a secondary natural attack, which comes with its own penalties.

This is RAW
RAW my .... :bored:
Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.

The touch attack is made only as a secondary attack if you are wielding a weapon in your main hand. Unarmed strikes are not treated as wielding weapons.

In addition,
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
It does not get any clearer than this. I do not see how you can conceivably argue otherwise.

And I just loved how you chose to quote everything but the relevant text pertaining to this question...;)
El_Machinae
03-06-07, 09:36 AM That really cleared things up for me.
It looks like the monk would be able to off-hand the attack, too.
runestar
03-06-07, 09:39 AM It looks like the monk would be able to off-hand the attack, too.
Not really recommended though - the to-hit penalty is just not worth the extra attack.:(
Nebula
03-06-07, 11:11 AM Also remember, any spell like effects that can be applied through mellee touch attacks can simultaneously be applied through unarmed attacks that do damage.
i don't think this is the case. the monster manual states openly "a lich with natural weapon can use his touch attack or his natural weapon, as it prefers".
also, fallenangel, i think you missed an option: attack sequence (not a flurry) mixing unarmed attacks, weapon attacks (natural and not) and one single touch attack.

The touch attack is made only as a secondary attack if you are wielding a weapon in your main hand.
i don't agree, runestar. mm says "if armed with a weapon, the lich usually uses the weapon as his primary attack, along with a touch attack as natural secondary attack".

however, this cursed monk unarmed attacks has the lich 1d8+5 bonus to the damage. am i right?
runestar
03-06-07, 11:28 PM however, this cursed monk unarmed attacks has the lich 1d8+5 bonus to the damage. am i right?
Only for one unarmed strike each round.:)
Nebula
03-07-07, 04:10 AM the last thing: and this extra damege is negative energy? the manual isn't so clear here, but since it's only once for round...
runestar
03-07-07, 04:27 AM Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.
:D
Nebula
03-07-07, 04:53 AM if it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.
negative energy? it's not used to use toothpaste?
ok, i suppose the first...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nebula 03-06-07, 07:00 AM	according to the ph sometimes monk's unarmed attack is to be seen as a manifactured weapon or a natural attack. the lich adds 1d8+5 to the damage of it's natural attack. do you think that a lich monk should add 1d8+5 to his unarmed attack?
runestar 03-06-07, 07:18 AM	Yeah, it should work.:)
The_Shaman 03-06-07, 07:38 AM	"A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any)" - so I guess they might be different, but I can't be sure. IMO, you should be able to use it on your fists or just "charge" them for the 1st attack as a swift action. It should be like putting an enhancement spell on your natural weapon. How are you doing this btw? I guess through enlightened fist?
Nebula 03-06-07, 08:42 AM	it's not anything i'm playing. it was just a thread in another forum. i thought you must chose: an unarmed attack, a natural weapon attack incresed of 1d8+5 damege or the touch attack (the latter only once a round). another guys thought you can apply what ph says about monks unarmed attack, adding the 1d8+5 also to the unarmed attack.
travellersside 03-06-07, 09:13 AM	"A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any)" - so I guess they might be different, but I can't be sure. IMO, you should be able to use it on your fists or just "charge" them for the 1st attack as a swift action. It should be like putting an enhancement spell on your natural weapon. You missed the more important entry just above it. Emphasis mine. A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round. If the base creature can use weapons, the lich retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A lich fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any)... If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a touch as a natural secondary attack, provided it has a way to make that attack A monk's primary attack is the standard unarmed progression. In other words, you have the following options: Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence. Make a single lich-enhanced attack, doing a base damage as appropriate for a creature your size. Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence, with a single off-hand attack doing lesser damage, but with the lich-enhancements. This off-hand attack is a secondary natural attack, which comes with its own penalties. This is RAW. Personally, I'd be happy to let it stack with full monk attack on the grounds that a lich monk is going to be very poor indeed except for the whole 'doesn't stay dead' bit - which doesn't help much if you die every time you enter melee. But that's merely a sensible houserule.
Fallenangel359 03-06-07, 09:16 AM	monk unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon, an unarmed attack, and a natural attack all at the same time. Anything that boosts the natural attack will boost the monk's strike. Also remember, any spell like effects that can be applied through mellee touch attacks can simultaneously be applied through unarmed attacks that do damage. If you want to be a real bastard about it, pick up one level of dread necromancer, and add another d8+1 to your damage, once per round. I'm currently running a gestalt game, where the arcane caster is a dreadnecromancer/ war mage jade pheonix mage, and we moddified jade pheonix mage so it does NOT give martial maneuvers, nor does it give the one stance at level 5, however, it does not require martial maneuvers to enter. It works well. Of course, its nasty when he casts a inflict spell, then sacrifices a topend spell, and uses sudden maximize to maximize those dice, then punches with a gauntlet, and bam...
runestar 03-06-07, 09:24 AM	* Make a regular unarmed monk attack sequence, with a single off-hand attack doing lesser damage, but with the lich-enhancements. This off-hand attack is a secondary natural attack, which comes with its own penalties. This is RAW RAW my .... :bored: Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack. The touch attack is made only as a secondary attack if you are wielding a weapon in your main hand. Unarmed strikes are not treated as wielding weapons. In addition, A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. It does not get any clearer than this. I do not see how you can conceivably argue otherwise. And I just loved how you chose to quote everything but the relevant text pertaining to this question...;)
El_Machinae 03-06-07, 09:36 AM	That really cleared things up for me. It looks like the monk would be able to off-hand the attack, too.
runestar 03-06-07, 09:39 AM	It looks like the monk would be able to off-hand the attack, too. Not really recommended though - the to-hit penalty is just not worth the extra attack.:(
Nebula 03-06-07, 11:11 AM	Also remember, any spell like effects that can be applied through mellee touch attacks can simultaneously be applied through unarmed attacks that do damage. i don't think this is the case. the monster manual states openly "a lich with natural weapon can use his touch attack or his natural weapon, as it prefers". also, fallenangel, i think you missed an option: attack sequence (not a flurry) mixing unarmed attacks, weapon attacks (natural and not) and one single touch attack. The touch attack is made only as a secondary attack if you are wielding a weapon in your main hand. i don't agree, runestar. mm says "if armed with a weapon, the lich usually uses the weapon as his primary attack, along with a touch attack as natural secondary attack". however, this cursed monk unarmed attacks has the lich 1d8+5 bonus to the damage. am i right?
runestar 03-06-07, 11:28 PM	however, this cursed monk unarmed attacks has the lich 1d8+5 bonus to the damage. am i right? Only for one unarmed strike each round.:)
Nebula 03-07-07, 04:10 AM	the last thing: and this extra damege is negative energy? the manual isn't so clear here, but since it's only once for round...
runestar 03-07-07, 04:27 AM	Damage: A lich without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses negative energy to deal 1d8+5 points of damage to living creatures; a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 lich’s HD + lich’s Cha modifier) halves the damage. A lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack. :D
Nebula 03-07-07, 04:53 AM	if it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack. negative energy? it's not used to use toothpaste? ok, i suppose the first...