Post/Author/DateTime	Post
satanicway 02-09-07, 07:05 PM	Every time i come to this forum it makes me laugh, people saying warriors are underpowered. Lv16 fighter Half-ORC: 16d10+80=168 STR 28 DEX 16 CON 20 INT 14 SAB 10 CAR 8 Base +16/11/6/1 Saves Fort 17 REF 12 WILL 11 AC= 10+11+3+3+3=30 INI = +7 Atk= Spiked Chain 32/27/22/17 2d4+22 Crit 17-20 x2 Long Bow 24/19/14/9 1d8+9+3d6 Crit 20 x3 Equips: +5 Spiked Chain +3 Mithril FullPlate +1 LongBow(ref+4) Distance Seeking (+5 Frost Shock Flame Arrows) Potions: Fly x2, Enlarge, Cure Serious Wonds x2, Invisibility, Blur , Remove Curse, Remove Desiese, See invisibility x2. Rings: Protection +3, Free Movement Cloak of Resistence +3 Belt of Giant Strenght +4 Amulet of +4 Con Gloves of Dex +2 Helm of Teleport Boots of Hast (10 chargers) Feats: (15) Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Improved Critical, MageSlayer, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Graple, Pierce Magical Concealment, Iron Will, Power Critical Now place this fighter and any other class with equivalent lvl/gear/race in an arena. They enter the arena at the same time, without any kind of pre-buff. In a tournament with this kind of rules, im sure the a fighter will win. People will ever scream about fighters being underpowered, when they are the most powerful class of the game, being able to get the most powerful feats and do insane amout of damage. (This fighter can hit a mage for 2d4+40 each attack, and still have 22/17/12/7 ... ) A fighters with the right gear, some potions and right feats are really powerful. A fighter strenght all rellies into gear/equip, thats the rule for fighters in most all games, but if he happens to deal with it, hes overpowered. Its all about giving the warrior the right itens and potions, and a good selection of feats. (like Mageslayer a MUST HAVE)
Tony Vargas 02-09-07, 07:09 PM	Every time i come to this forum it makes me laugh, people saying warriors are underpowered.The fighter is balanced (thus, not underpowered), but it's peak power just isn't as high as is achievable with other classes, if you pour on enought optimizing mojo or non-core brokeness (or, most often, both). So it's not exactly a laughing matter, as it's indicative of real flaws in the broader system.
DaidojiTaidoru 02-09-07, 07:14 PM	Now place this fighter and any other class with equivalent lvl/gear/race in an arena. They enter the arena at the same time, without any kind of pre-buff. In a tournament with this kind of rules, im sure the a fighter will win. Too bad this never happens in the wild. Seriously without any kind of prebuff.:rolleyes: At 16th level? Even arcanists who banned evocation have contingency at that point, via shadow evocation greater. The Druids in wildshape 24/7. And I'm sure there's stuff for the cleric even ignoring divine metacheese persistant. Without any prebuff.... :nonono:
kadeity 02-09-07, 07:36 PM	thats great. i bet a Warblade of the same level could PWNINATE him. why? Because Feats every other level < Maneuvers every level. p.s. your not super keen on the damage output of Wizards, Clerics Or Druids are you?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 02-09-07, 07:44 PM	Okay, level 16 Wizard with a Contingent Wall of Force upon losing intiative. Oh and lets say you use the Helm of Teleportation to bypass it, I simply nail you with Forcecage+ Quickened Dimensional Anchor. Also, you are using a messed up 42 point buy. You are also over Wealth by level charts. You have some 400K worth of items. The normal amount for the level is 260K. What you have proved is that a Fighter that has ridiculous stats, way to much money and an environment and situation that vastly favors him will still lose to a naked level 16 wizard in one, perhaps two rounds.
Encard 02-09-07, 08:19 PM	I hate to say it, but you're wrong. Sure, fighters get many, many feats. The fighter-only feats are mostly lackluster, though, and just getting a *lot* of feats doesn't make up for the lower power of each feat. As said already, an arena with contestants entering without any sort of buffs is a joke. That's not a situation that'll come up in game... that's a situation designed specifically to try and make the fighter win. It'll still probably fail, of course, but whatever. Yes, fighters can potentially hit for a lot of damage on each attack. I can easily make other characters with a higher per-round damage output, though, either magical or melee. Heck, a Frenzied Berserker build could possibly outdamage you at around half your level, if done moderately well. Casters can, as has been said, disable you without much trouble... They simply have a lot more options, and a lot of those options are things you can't or can't easily counter. Oh, also... I'm noticing that you're not exactly using core-only, so maybe talking about non-core brokenness is a little hasty? In any case... If you really want to check, I'm sure someone could run an arena of the sort you're talking about. Heck, I'd probably be willing to make a character to challenge this guy - it shouldn't be too difficult.
RadicalTaoist 02-09-07, 08:23 PM	Regarding the opening post's fighter Level 16 druid could rock him. He's had access to dire bear form for four levels, got dire tiger this level, and full spellcasting with an animal companion Level 16 wizard could rock him. Depends on what cheese he's allowed to use, but with access to 8th level spells it's easy. Level 16 cleric could rock him. At archery, easily. With the right spells, easily. CR 16 Cornugon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#hornedDevilCornugon) could rock him. Better full attack, better AC, DR and regeneration, and a nasty wounding effect on the tail. CR 16 true dragon (old black, mature adult blue or green, hell the adult red and old white could do and they're CR 15) will rock him. CR 15 Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut) can rock him. A few 12 headed hydras (which are what, CR 11?) will rock him. A CR 9 Colossal Monstrous Centipede has a +42 grapple modifier (to his +25, +30 after your potion). It could grab him and chew on him until he dies and it is 7 CRs below him. Multiple centipedes would be overkill. A CR 12 kraken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kraken.htm) would be even worse. A CR 16 greater stone golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#greaterStoneGolem) will slow you unless you roll a 20 on your Will save, has a grapple mod of +52, and +42 to attack. A CR 13 Storm Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#stormGiant) has an average Reflex save DC for his Awesome Blow feat of 35. A CR 11 Elder Earth Elemental will be a challenge for this guy in melee combat. Not dangerous, but a challenge. I don't see how many other classes can be challenged by something so far below it in CR. EDIT: Also, you are using a messed up 42 point buy. 40 or 42 point buy, assuming they all start at 8 and depending on how much stat boosts to 17. and 18 cost.
Seerow 02-09-07, 08:28 PM	Duels really prove nothing. You know that, right?
DaidojiTaidoru 02-09-07, 08:32 PM	Duels really prove nothing. You know that, right? That's not true. They say a lot about the optimization skill of the creator. That's not what they're ever used to prove of course but....
Terronus 02-09-07, 08:33 PM	You can't grapple someone wearing a freedom of movement ring. I don't know about forcecage though...
DaidojiTaidoru 02-09-07, 08:35 PM	You can't grapple someone wearing a freedom of movement ring. I don't know about forcecage though... You can forcecage anything that fits in a 20 foot cube. Edit: More with metamagic I believe.
Leo 02-09-07, 08:49 PM	Well, honestly, a true duel is pretty hard to happen in real D&D. Stuff like allies, terrain, previous encounters, a greater dispell magic here, an antimagic field there, a poisoned meal, as the level goes up, the list of possibilities is endless. You can't easily compare 2 classes power. Yes, the fighter hasn't got amazing flashy powers, bu when the paty is weared down, stoped from rest, and hited by greater dispel magic after greater dispell magic, you'll thank him for being there. Not all monsters are going to just head charge against you so you can blast them at will.
kadeity 02-09-07, 08:54 PM	D&D Duels are something that only happens with Paladins and Samurai who are so sad about their class features that they have no respect for their lives anymore.
OneWinged4ngel 02-09-07, 09:08 PM	Every time i come to this forum it makes me laugh, people saying warriors are underpowered. Lv16 fighter Half-ORC: 16d10+80=168 STR 28 DEX 16 CON 20 INT 14 SAB 10 CAR 8 Base +16/11/6/1 Saves Fort 17 REF 12 WILL 11 AC= 10+11+3+3+3=30 INI = +7 Atk= Spiked Chain 32/27/22/17 2d4+22 Crit 17-20 x2 Long Bow 24/19/14/9 1d8+9+3d6 Crit 20 x3 Equips: +5 Spiked Chain +3 Mithril FullPlate +1 LongBow(ref+4) Distance Seeking (+5 Frost Shock Flame Arrows) Potions: Fly x2, Enlarge, Cure Serious Wonds x2, Invisibility, Blur , Remove Curse, Remove Desiese, See invisibility x2. Rings: Protection +3, Free Movement Cloak of Resistence +3 Belt of Giant Strenght +4 Amulet of +4 Con Gloves of Dex +2 Helm of Teleport Boots of Hast (10 chargers) Feats: (15) Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Improved Critical, MageSlayer, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Graple, Pierce Magical Concealment, Iron Will, Power Critical Now place this fighter and any other class with equivalent lvl/gear/race in an arena. They enter the arena at the same time, without any kind of pre-buff. In a tournament with this kind of rules, im sure the a fighter will win. People will ever scream about fighters being underpowered, when they are the most powerful class of the game, being able to get the most powerful feats and do insane amout of damage. (This fighter can hit a mage for 2d4+40 each attack, and still have 22/17/12/7 ... ) A fighters with the right gear, some potions and right feats are really powerful. A fighter strenght all rellies into gear/equip, thats the rule for fighters in most all games, but if he happens to deal with it, hes overpowered. Its all about giving the warrior the right itens and potions, and a good selection of feats. (like Mageslayer a MUST HAVE) The funny thing is that this build isn't as powerful as Fighter examples that have been topped in the Fighters are Underpowered arguments. Even though it breaks the usual rules. Also, duels are pointless. With any two sufficiently skilled optimizers and an assumption of no buffs and standing close to each other (an arrangement clearly designed to favor the fighters, of course) the winner is going to be the guy who won initiative.
FreAkOuTRG 02-09-07, 09:31 PM	I think even I could make a better fighter than that. I'm not even a tanker. I prefer rogues and scouts. Don't hold me to it though :P When did you join? Last July? Ever been to the Optimization Boards? (or heck, even one of these nifty little fighters are under/over-powered threads?) And not even the decency to respond to us? Smells like a troll to me. Quick! Draw your +3 flaming longswords! :fight!:
Dragoloth 02-09-07, 09:31 PM	A 16th level fighter isn't meant to win deuls against non-melee opponents. D&D is about group play not who can solo better. Many people dis fighters but they have their place. The wizard(or other blaster mage) softens up a groupwith a couple spells and the fighter charges in with greatcleave to clean up. A fighter keeps the group alive at low levels and becomes a meat shield at higher levels.
Jaxgaret 02-09-07, 11:12 PM	A fighter keeps the group alive at low levels and becomes a meat shield at higher levels. This has never been said more succinctly. Though I would have inserted the words "poor excuse for a" before meat shield. What you have proved is that a Fighter that has ridiculous stats, way to much money and an environment and situation that vastly favors him will still lose to a naked level 16 wizard in one, perhaps two rounds. QFT
zae 02-09-07, 11:50 PM	Thank you, RT. I was curious about which class types the monsters are balanced against, and it seems the answer is "The stronger ones." if a fighter is basically guaranteed to lose against a CR of equal level or a few points below. Still, be fair with the dragons - they have the [Awesome] subtype so their CRs are actually 2-4 points higher than listed. Anyway, can't add anything to this debate that hasn't already been said - the same things having also been said every time anyone gets this weird "Fighters are better than casters at levels higher than 5" idea and decides to post it.
WayneTheGame 02-10-07, 09:44 AM	Here is the problem with any and all "Fighter Sucks!" and "Fighter is Good!" debates: They never argue on the same level. The argument usually is not that the fighter isn't good, just that they aren't good compared to the "Big Three" (i.e. Druid, Cleric and Wizard) at high levels. Now, a competant fighter will beat down a non-powergamed Druid/Cleric/Wizard. Yes folks, there are people out there who do NOT abuse Wildshape/Divine Metamagic/Save or Die or whatever the latest Wizard fad is. There are people who take Eschew Materials and Toughness as their feats as a Human Wizard at 1st level because it makes sense for the character. There are people who specialize in Evocation because they think blowing stuff up is cool. Not everyone adheres to the "Only combinations x, y and z are any good, and anything else sucks so much nobody in their right mind would play it" mentality that seems to prevalent here. A min/maxed or cherry-picked caster will own a Fighter at high levels because the Fighter just can't compete with all the random effects the spellcasters can throw out. That doesn't make the class BAD. Remember, the biggest thing people forget when they try to do a comparison is that you aren't competing with your party's Wizard! It doesn't matter if he could beat the crap out of you in a fight, because unless you're a backstabbing jerk you won't ever be put in that situation. The game is about working together, not trying to one-up each other and see who's better. In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group.
Seerow 02-10-07, 10:19 AM	Here is the problem with any and all "Fighter Sucks!" and "Fighter is Good!" debates: They never argue on the same level. The argument usually is not that the fighter isn't good, just that they aren't good compared to the "Big Three" (i.e. Druid, Cleric and Wizard) at high levels. Now, a competant fighter will beat down a non-powergamed Druid/Cleric/Wizard. Yes folks, there are people out there who do NOT abuse Wildshape/Divine Metamagic/Save or Die or whatever the latest Wizard fad is. There are people who take Eschew Materials and Toughness as their feats as a Human Wizard at 1st level because it makes sense for the character. There are people who specialize in Evocation because they think blowing stuff up is cool. Not everyone adheres to the "Only combinations x, y and z are any good, and anything else sucks so much nobody in their right mind would play it" mentality that seems to prevalent here. A min/maxed or cherry-picked caster will own a Fighter at high levels because the Fighter just can't compete with all the random effects the spellcasters can throw out. That doesn't make the class BAD. Remember, the biggest thing people forget when they try to do a comparison is that you aren't competing with your party's Wizard! It doesn't matter if he could beat the crap out of you in a fight, because unless you're a backstabbing jerk you won't ever be put in that situation. The game is about working together, not trying to one-up each other and see who's better. In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group. This is not true. At least not in my case. It's not a case of just the Big3 beating out the Fighter. It's the matter of the Big3 beating him out AT HIS OWN GAME. It's the matter of the Fighter, supposedly the master of combat, being the -most restrictive- class in the game. It's the matter of the Fighter not having any options in combat beyond power attack, battle for the guy who has nothing but combat boiling down to "I hit. I miss" It's the matter of the Fighter NEEDING to be optimized to compete on an appropriate level, while others are expected to compete in a less optimized environment. Seriously, your post even highlights that last point. You go on at length about how a Fighter can beat a non-powergamed Wizard/Cleric/Druid. The problem is, with those classes, while optimizing them CAN make them much better, even unoptimized, if just played intelligently, they STILL outshine the Fighter. Seriously, you can have a Wizard with all of his feats spent on Toughness. He won't be the best Wizard ever, but his spells are more than enough to see that he shines much more than the Fighter. However, compare a similarly optimized Fighter, with all of his feats being blown on crappy stuff... and he has nothing left.
Rez 02-10-07, 10:41 AM	Most likely, even without some higher level spells/wildshape-a fighter would lose against a cleric/wizard/druid just because of spells. But a well prepared fighter, such as one focusing on a specific weapon and some good mobility feats, equipped with items to raise saves, armor to provide protection against some spells, and the right items-could stop a spellcaster in its tracks. I play a Human Evoker 6. Fire Magic. 11 AC. 20 HP. And getting to the point of shelling out a lot of damage and fast with spells (and actually, going to take Polymorph Self next level).One hit, I'm toast. No pun intended. Take a Human Fighter, average con. Same level. 60 HP+more. 20 AC or better. I could slam a 7d6 fireball at him and he could survive. A few. I gotta agree with Wayne on one thing: Want to play a fighter, go ahead. You'd be dang good in combat and it could provide good RP. Play anything yah want. Long as yah got fun, its good. (And a Spellcaster who runs out of spells, if a fighter can survive which is quite likely....hmm). *shrugs* It all depends on your view. I see nothing wrong with any of the classes. Polymorph and Wildshap can be broken but a fighter with a high strength, good armor and a decent weapon can be a challenge for it. But why bother even going there?
Haruspex 02-10-07, 10:46 AM	Eh, a contingent spell must be one that affects your person. Wall of Force is out.
theotherdraxen 02-10-07, 11:03 AM	Here is the problem with any and all "Fighter Sucks!" and "Fighter is Good!" debates: They never argue on the same level. The argument usually is not that the fighter isn't good, just that they aren't good compared to the "Big Three" (i.e. Druid, Cleric and Wizard) at high levels. Now, a competant fighter will beat down a non-powergamed Druid/Cleric/Wizard. Yes folks, there are people out there who do NOT abuse Wildshape/Divine Metamagic/Save or Die or whatever the latest Wizard fad is. There are people who take Eschew Materials and Toughness as their feats as a Human Wizard at 1st level because it makes sense for the character. There are people who specialize in Evocation because they think blowing stuff up is cool. Not everyone adheres to the "Only combinations x, y and z are any good, and anything else sucks so much nobody in their right mind would play it" mentality that seems to prevalent here. A min/maxed or cherry-picked caster will own a Fighter at high levels because the Fighter just can't compete with all the random effects the spellcasters can throw out. That doesn't make the class BAD. Remember, the biggest thing people forget when they try to do a comparison is that you aren't competing with your party's Wizard! It doesn't matter if he could beat the crap out of you in a fight, because unless you're a backstabbing jerk you won't ever be put in that situation. The game is about working together, not trying to one-up each other and see who's better. In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group. :uh-huh: In-game comparison! One friend of mine is an optimizer. He sees classes as packages of abilities, and fits them together to fit his concept. He decides to play a werewolf fighter/barbarian (the class that many CO guys think is somehow good:rolleyes:). He wears full mithril platemail and wields a two-handed weapon (the type escapes me at the moment) with artifact properties (it's a Weapon of Legacy). It has the Brilliant Energy property in addition to tons of other effects. Another friend of mine isn't an optimzer: she doesn't own a single D&D book and still stuggles with the rules. She is set up as a Tiefling (so -2 cha) Warmage (cha caster), and she took a further hit to caster level by putting one level into Psy-warrior and manifesting demon powers (a futher LA of 3 or 4). Thus, she's only a 12th level caster at level 16. In battle, guess who outshines who? That's right, the Warmage who can only do damage spells and lost more caster levels than anyone should have. She is hardly optimized, while the warrior-type is well optimized. Never doubt that we haven't seen it in game: I've personally seen a well-built optimized warrior-type outshined by a caster that doesn't even know the core rules.
Rez 02-10-07, 11:11 AM	:uh-huh: In-game comparison! One friend of mine is an optimizer. He sees classes as packages of abilities, and fits them together to fit his concept. He decides to play a werewolf fighter/barbarian (the class that many CO guys think is somehow good:rolleyes:). He wears full mithril platemail and wields a two-handed weapon (the type escapes me at the moment) with artifact properties (it's a Weapon of Legacy). It has the Brilliant Energy property in addition to tons of other effects. Another friend of mine isn't an optimzer: she doesn't own a single D&D book and still stuggles with the rules. She is set up as a Tiefling (so -2 cha) Warmage (cha caster), and she took a further hit to caster level by putting one level into Psy-warrior and manifesting demon powers (a futher LA of 3 or 4). Thus, she's only a 12th level caster at level 16. In battle, guess who outshines who? That's right, the Warmage who can only do damage spells and lost more caster levels than anyone should have. She is hardly optimized, while the warrior-type is well optimized. Never doubt that we haven't seen it in game: I've personally seen a well-built optimized warrior-type outshined by a caster that doesn't even know the core rules. The warmage is also a ranged combatant. And being a werewolf takes up A LOT of class levels (I think its like 8). Even with the fighter/barbarian levels and decent armor and a weapon, I can understand why the Warmage would pull off being better in this situation. Though that werewolf sounds very nasty. And uberpowered. (Course the only way I'd allow werewolf PCs is if they are bitten in game and they can only change at night and can't avoide it as were antyhing is nasty) and I probably wouldn't even allow Legacy weapons at all. :P *shrugs*
mkill 02-10-07, 11:34 AM	Now place this fighter and any other class with equivalent lvl/gear/race in an arena. They enter the arena at the same time, without any kind of pre-buff. In a tournament with this kind of rules, im sure the a fighter will win. Who cares? Place him in a dungeon with a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard of equal level and equal gear, and see whether he is of actual use to the party. THAT's how you determine game balance. Suddenly, * Mage Slayer is pretty useless against most of the monsters * you quickly run out of money if you have to drink potions before every fight * your spiked chain doesn't overcome any damage reduction except for magic and piercing *your saves are too low... * you have severe problems tripping those insanely oversized high-CR critters * why the hell mithril full plate? What do you get from running around in medium armor instead of heavy? Get adamantium for DR! * you have zero elemental resistance * you are very vulnerable against touch attacks The char you just built has severe problems in any dungeon. He spend huge amounts of gold, but none of it gives him any versatility. All you did is boost stats, attack, damage, and initiative. My favorite way to kill your orc is a vanilla warlock (naked, if necessary) flight + invisibility + a ranged touch attack for 8d6 damage per round + shatter + dispel magic + fun stuff not necessary to defeat you Other builds will kill you faster, but the warlock is the most fun. Sure, you could see him with your potions, but all he has to do is dispel them. Or, easier, just ready an action to shatter them while you drink! Once you're out of potions he can zap you for 1d6 damage each round until you die. Of course he can scrap all your other equipment, too (dispel + shatter), but why waste so much loot?
Rez 02-10-07, 11:39 AM	Who cares? Place him in a dungeon with a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard of equal level and equal gear, and see whether he is of actual use to the party. THAT's how you determine game balance. Suddenly, * Mage Slayer is pretty useless against most of the monsters * you quickly run out of money if you have to drink potions before every fight * your spiked chain doesn't overcome any damage reduction except for magic and piercing *your saves are too low... * you have severe problems tripping those insanely oversized high-CR critters * why the hell mithril full plate? What do you get from running around in medium armor instead of heavy? Get adamantium for DR! * you have zero elemental resistance * you are very vulnerable against touch attacks The char you just built has severe problems in any dungeon. He spend huge amounts of gold, but none of it gives him any versatility. All you did is boost stats, attack, damage, and initiative. My favorite way to kill your orc is a vanilla warlock (naked, if necessary) flight + invisibility + a ranged touch attack for 8d6 damage per round + evards tentacles Other builds will kill you faster, but the warlock is the most fun. Sure, you could see him with your potions, but all he has to do is dispel them. Or, easier, just ready an action to shatter them while you drink! Once you're out of potions he can zap you for 1d6 damage each round until you die. Interesting....and true. I still say if someone wants to play a fighter, do it. But definatly go for a PRC. Some good ones I liked: Order of the Bow Initiate Invisible Blade Tempest hmm. As for 'all you did was boost stats, attack, damage and initiative' it would depend on /what/ you bought for the fighter char being played. And the wizard can always cast spells on the fighter to boost things as well. All depends on the makeup of the fighter and the PC's around him/her.
Olskool 02-10-07, 12:09 PM	Fighter's the best class in the game hands down. Most of the time in a fight, a fighter's already killed all opponents before a caster has time to cast his third useless enhancement spell. Here's how it actually wotks in a real game. Cleric: At last, I've finished casting Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, S.O.F., and P.O.E on myself.... Time to wreck shop at last! Fighter: Fight's over man. Thanks for all your help.
OneWinged4ngel 02-10-07, 12:09 PM	Here is the problem with any and all "Fighter Sucks!" and "Fighter is Good!" debates: They never argue on the same level. The argument usually is not that the fighter isn't good, just that they aren't good compared to the "Big Three" (i.e. Druid, Cleric and Wizard) at high levels. Now, a competant fighter will beat down a non-powergamed Druid/Cleric/Wizard. Yes folks, there are people out there who do NOT abuse Wildshape/Divine Metamagic/Save or Die or whatever the latest Wizard fad is. There are people who take Eschew Materials and Toughness as their feats as a Human Wizard at 1st level because it makes sense for the character. There are people who specialize in Evocation because they think blowing stuff up is cool. Not everyone adheres to the "Only combinations x, y and z are any good, and anything else sucks so much nobody in their right mind would play it" mentality that seems to prevalent here. A min/maxed or cherry-picked caster will own a Fighter at high levels because the Fighter just can't compete with all the random effects the spellcasters can throw out. That doesn't make the class BAD. Remember, the biggest thing people forget when they try to do a comparison is that you aren't competing with your party's Wizard! It doesn't matter if he could beat the crap out of you in a fight, because unless you're a backstabbing jerk you won't ever be put in that situation. The game is about working together, not trying to one-up each other and see who's better. In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group. This isn't true. It has not been limited to "Fighters are beaten by the big three." It has been said that "the big 3 can do everything the Fighter can do, but better, while doing other things too" and "Fighters aren't as good as anything else of their CR" and "Fighters are only useful as a two-level dip" and "The Fighter doesn't fill a valuable class role" and "The Fighter is comparable in effectiveness to an NPC class, and can be outclassed by people's cohorts." Etc, etc. Oh yeah, and you don't have to minmax to make the Fighter look bad. As Draxen already mentioned.
kadeity 02-10-07, 12:24 PM	Fighter's the best class in the game hands down. Most of the time in a fight, a fighter's already killed all opponents before a caster has time to cast his third useless enhancement spell. Here's how it actually wotks in a real game. Cleric: At last, I've finished casting Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, S.O.F., and P.O.E on myself.... Time to wreck shop at last! Fighter: Fight's over man. Thanks for all your help. WHATEVER. Anything your CR is gonna require all 4 team-members to beat. Your fighter isnt gonna SOLO anything that the cleric would bother buffing himself for. And what about Non-combat encounters, in which the fighter is USELESS? can your DM even Spell CR? Cleric of Heironius has fullplate, has a longsword , and can heal himself. he picks the domain of War and OUTTANKS THE TANK.
Olskool 02-10-07, 12:35 PM	WHATEVER. Anything your CR is gonna require all 4 team-members to beat. Your fighter isnt gonna SOLO anything that the cleric would bother buffing himself for. And what about Non-combat encounters, in which the fighter is USELESS? can your DM even Spell CR? Cleric of Heironius has fullplate, has a longsword , and can heal himself. he picks the domain of War and OUTTANKS THE TANK. I am the DM. Yes, I can spell CR. That's how combat often goes in my game.Fighter>Cleric. And I don't have Heinyroneus or whatever he's called in my campaign. I prefer to come up with my own stuff. If fighters seem useless to you in non combat situations, you just haven't seen them played right.
Scavelock 02-10-07, 12:43 PM	In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group. I'm with you on this. There are many people who play the game from a different perspective, who want to play flawed or different styles of characters, characters from novels, etc. Often times, it has nothing to do with newness to the game or not knowing the rules, they just want to have fun and play the character they want to play. It's sad that anyone would hurt the gaming community by saying there are wrong ways to play the game, and thereby, divide gamers. Both min-maxing and playing the characters you really want to play should be acceptable to every player.
theotherdraxen 02-10-07, 01:03 PM	The warmage is also a ranged combatant. And being a werewolf takes up A LOT of class levels (I think its like 8). Even with the fighter/barbarian levels and decent armor and a weapon, I can understand why the Warmage would pull off being better in this situation. What? The warmage was a 12th level caster in a 17th level party! She doesn't even have to use metamagic feats to outshine someone who's stacking rage with lycanthropy! She played a tiefling warmage. Oh, I forgot the best proof of this: she has decided (for roleplaying purposes) that she will not use items that enhance her mental ability scores since it alters the state of her characters already confused half-demon mind. Thus, she only has a charisma of 20, while our warrior friend has a con of up to 30 and a strength nearly as high. Do I also need mention that he rolled well on his hit points, and thus has over 200+ HP? Though that werewolf sounds very nasty. And uberpowered. (Course the only way I'd allow werewolf PCs is if they are bitten in game and they can only change at night and can't avoide it as were antyhing is nasty) and I probably wouldn't even allow Legacy weapons at all. :P *shrugs* Uberpowered? He got outshined. Fighter's the best class in the game hands down. Most of the time in a fight, a fighter's already killed all opponents before a caster has time to cast his third useless enhancement spell. Here's how it actually wotks in a real game. Cleric: At last, I've finished casting Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, S.O.F., and P.O.E on myself.... Time to wreck shop at last! Fighter: Fight's over man. Thanks for all your help. Would you please stop saying that we don't play the game?
theotherdraxen 02-10-07, 01:05 PM	I am the DM. Yes, I can spell CR. That's how combat often goes in my game.Fighter>Cleric. And I don't have Heinyroneus or whatever he's called in my campaign. I prefer to come up with my own stuff. If fighters seem useless to you in non combat situations, you just haven't seen them played right. Really? So what should my werewolf fighter/barbarian legacy-weapon wielding friend do in order to contribute as much as the tiefling warmage?
Olskool 02-10-07, 01:07 PM	Would you please stop saying that we don't play the game? Would you please stop putting words in my mouth? Attributing statements to people who never made them really is a cheap debating technique. I'm surprised at you.
Rez 02-10-07, 01:10 PM	What? The warmage was a 12th level caster in a 17th level party! She doesn't even have to use metamagic feats to outshine someone who's stacking rage with lycanthropy! She played a tiefling warmage. Oh, I forgot the best proof of this: she has decided (for roleplaying purposes) that she will not use items that enhance her mental ability scores since it alters the state of her characters already confused half-demon mind. Thus, she only has a charisma of 20, while our warrior friend has a con of up to 30 and a strength nearly as high. Do I also need mention that he rolled well on his hit points, and thus has over 200+ HP? Uberpowered? He got outshined. Would you please stop saying that we don't play the game? Why was he outshined? And the werewolf just sounded...uberpowered with the gear he has is all, don't get me wrong. I still think Fighter is a /good/ class but really only if you want a tankish type and go for a PRC. What did the warmage do so 'effectively'? And the topic goes in a circle :)
megageek12 02-10-07, 01:12 PM	Would you please stop putting words in my mouth? Attributing statements to people who never made them really is a cheap debating technique. I'm surprised at you. By saying "how it 'wrks' in the real game" implies that someone does not really play the game...All he did was underline what you said...
theotherdraxen 02-10-07, 01:19 PM	Why was he outshined? The Warmage regularly outdamaged him. She once killed a red dragon (which his weapon is designed to kill) in a single hit, which he can't manage. And the werewolf just sounded...uberpowered with the gear he has is all, don't get me wrong. It is, but it is less powerful than a Warmage. That's all I was saying. I still think Fighter is a /good/ class but really only if you want a tankish type and go for a PRC. Agreed. What did the warmage do so 'effectively'? Played a caster-type and made it to 15th level. Targeted her enemies with her spells. That's about it. By saying "how it 'wrks' in the real game" implies that someone does not really play the game...All he did was underline what you said... It's not just an implication, it's a statement. He said it in the same way that you can say 5 by saying 2+3. I don't see any other interpretation of that sentence that doesn't mean "you guys haven't seen fighters in action". If this isn't what you meant to say, Olskool, could you please clarify.
Olskool 02-10-07, 01:28 PM	By saying "how it 'wrks' in the real game" implies that someone does not really play the game...All he did was underline what you said... I didn't imply that .He just INFERRED it. See the difference? My life has improved dramatically since I learned the definition of those 2 little words.
Rez 02-10-07, 01:29 PM	The Warmage regularly outdamaged him. She once killed a red dragon (which his weapon is designed to kill) in a single hit, which he can't manage. It is, but it is less powerful than a Warmage. That's all I was saying. Agreed. Played a caster-type and made it to 15th level. Targeted her enemies with her spells. That's about it. It's not just an implication, it's a statement. He said it in the same way that you can say 5 by saying 2+3. I don't see any other interpretation of that sentence that doesn't mean "you guys haven't seen fighters in action". If this isn't what you meant to say, Olskool, could you please clarify. Ahh ok. My suggestion for the werewolf: Stay human. Stand next to the Warmage. Be the bodyguard. Let her do her thing-nail enemies with spells. Watch and wait. And if anything gets close enough to hurt her-well go all wolfy and have a blast. He's got the advantage of melee-high HP, AC, cool abilities and most likely decent damage. And could go toe to toe for probably quite a lot longer then the Warmage. He's probably a lot faster movement wise too. Warmages=Ranged. Wolfy=Melee :P Might be a bit easier if I saw the stats, spells, ect and knew what each person was going with the chars.
megageek12 02-10-07, 01:32 PM	I didn't imply that .He just INFERRED it. See the difference? My life has improved dramatically since I learned the definition of those 2 little words. Please saying things in ways that other people will infer as insults, I would say that you pretty much made the comment that you are the only one who actually plays the game instead of just theorizing.
Olskool 02-10-07, 01:42 PM	Please saying things in ways that other people will infer as insults, I would say that you pretty much made the comment that you are the only one who actually plays the game instead of just theorizing. Nope. I said that my examples were from actual play and not theory. Just because my examples are coming from that angle doesn't mean that other people's aren't.
megageek12 02-10-07, 01:46 PM	Just be careful what you say, because there are many ways to interprate it. :)
DarkRhystar 02-10-07, 01:48 PM	I am the DM. Yes, I can spell CR. That's how combat often goes in my game.Fighter>Cleric. And I don't have Heinyroneus or whatever he's called in my campaign. I prefer to come up with my own stuff. Warning: Play experience may change with the inclusion of custom material. If you or someone else should experience any unfortunate side effects as a result such as head aches, nausea, shortness of breath, or vomiting as a result, please consult your local hammer gun. :) If fighters seem useless to you in non combat situations, you just haven't seen them played right. No class is necessarily useless in a non-combat situation. A good roleplayer can make a character interesting regardless of class. However the Fighter, with its tiny class skill list and meager skill point allocation, isn't going to be as effective in these situations as other classes. Good roleplaying should supplement a class' abilities, not have to make up for the lack thereof.
Olskool 02-10-07, 02:01 PM	Good roleplaying should supplement a class' abilities, not have to make up for the lack thereof. I disagree. Good roleplaying makes a character better in every case, whether it's "supposed to" or not. Mechanical skills are fine, but not when they interfere with a player's ability to play his character effectively. Non combat situations don't need rules to be played out. So every character, regardless of class, is equally effective in non combat situations. Of course, this is subject to player ability, so no, not everyone will be as effective in non combat situations. But this is dependant on the player, not their class.
megageek12 02-10-07, 02:03 PM	But that means you're making the bard on an even playing field in his area of experise! Game mechanics can be roleplayed too. I give players the chance to induce a bonus on their diplomacy checks through god roleplaying, but don't let it completely govern rp ecounters.
Olskool 02-10-07, 02:07 PM	But that means you're making the bard on an even playing field in his area of experise! Game mechanics can be roleplayed too. I give players the chance to induce a bonus on their diplomacy checks through god roleplaying, but don't let it completely govern rp ecounters. I don't allow bards. The diplomacy rules are too broken. Depending on a DMs interpretation of the rules, they're either way to powerful, or way too weak.
megageek12 02-10-07, 02:10 PM	Once again, don't bring your own houserules in this discussion, and I have never heard of anyone else not allowing bards.
Crashy75 02-10-07, 02:20 PM	Olskool. Perhaps you could share your houserules. I'd love to see them. I imagine full bab with every attack. Full attacks as standard actions. Feat scaling. Stuff like that. Perhaps you have found the perfect balance. Also, run us through an encounter. Consider it an act of good will. It's just hard to imagine the fighter dominating the others like that. Really hard.
Nephlite 02-10-07, 02:55 PM	Fighter's the best class in the game hands down. Most of the time in a fight, a fighter's already killed all opponents before a caster has time to cast his third useless enhancement spell. Here's how it actually wotks in a real game. Cleric: At last, I've finished casting Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, S.O.F., and P.O.E on myself.... Time to wreck shop at last! Fighter: Fight's over man. Thanks for all your help. First, what smuck (person over level 10) casts bull's Str when items at high levels are cheap that add +4 Str (more if expensive). So Quickened DF, Divine Power at most 1 round. SOF? POE is protection ftom evil?
Olskool 02-10-07, 03:20 PM	First, what smuck (person over level 10) casts bull's Str when items at high levels are cheap that add +4 Str (more if expensive). The kind of Schmuck that plays in a campaign world where magic item shops don't exist.
Olskool 02-10-07, 03:21 PM	Once again, don't bring your own houserules in this discussion, and I have never heard of anyone else not allowing bards. Why not? Others are bringing their house rules into the discussion. You're bringing yours. Why can't I bring mine?
Olskool 02-10-07, 03:23 PM	Olskool. Perhaps you could share your houserules. I'd love to see them. I imagine full bab with every attack. Full attacks as standard actions. Feat scaling. Stuff like that. Perhaps you have found the perfect balance. Also, run us through an encounter. Consider it an act of good will. It's just hard to imagine the fighter dominating the others like that. Really hard. Well, since you've already decided what my house rules are, you certainly don't seem to need my input for the discussion.
megageek12 02-10-07, 03:24 PM	Yes, but I'm not using them as an argument.
Yadot 02-10-07, 03:25 PM	The kind of Schmuck that plays in a campaign world where magic item shops don't exist. Ah, more House Rules. Care to list all of them?
Olskool 02-10-07, 03:34 PM	Yes, but I'm not using them as an argument. Really? I thought you were talking about Divine Mteamagic and non core spells and such .My bad. I can lose track of who said what when I'm arguing (in a friendly way, 'sall love) with so many different people.
Olskool 02-10-07, 03:37 PM	Ah, more House Rules. Care to list all of them? I wasn't aware that including magic item wal-marts was a rule. I've never run, or played in, a game where you could just go buy magic at the corner store. Guess it's a house rule. I always thought that including magic malls was the exception rather than the rule. Shows what I know I guess.
DarkRhystar 02-10-07, 03:48 PM	Good roleplaying should supplement a class' abilities, not have to make up for the lack thereof. I disagree. Good roleplaying makes a character better in every case, whether it's "supposed to" or not. Reread what I said, and then consider what you disagree with. For instance: A good roleplayer can make a character interesting regardless of class. Mechanical skills are fine, but not when they interfere with a player's ability to play his character effectively. Non combat situations don't need rules to be played out. In D&D they do. D&D is one of those silly systems that decided to give characters mental attributes rather than just going with the player's. So every character, regardless of class, is equally effective in non combat situations. Of course, this is subject to player ability, so no, not everyone will be as effective in non combat situations. But this is dependant on the player, not their class. You can't say the system is fine while at the same time ignoring half of it.
Olskool 02-10-07, 04:13 PM	You can't say the system is fine while at the same time ignoring half of it. You're right. I guess I'm not saying "the" system is fine. I'm saying "my" system is fine.
Tony Vargas 02-10-07, 04:25 PM	I wasn't aware that including magic item wal-marts was a rule. Not exactly. The guidelines in the DMG, though, suggest simply setting a 'gp limit' for a given locality, and allowing that things below that limit are generally available (specific things near it may or may not be as determined by the DM). So in a large city with a gp limit of 16000 gp, a suit of full plate is readily available, as would be a potion of Bull's strength, while the player should expect to ask the DM about avaibility of Mithral Full Plate or a Belt of Giant Strength. Cleric: At last, I've finished casting Bulls Strength, Divine Favor, S.O.F., and P.O.E on myself.... Time to wreck shop at last! First, what smuck (person over level 10) casts bull's Str when items at high levels are cheap that add +4 Str (more if expensive).I'm guessing the kind that's under 10th level - the highest level spell listed there is 2nd. Of course, the 10+ level smuck doesn't own a +4 STR item, because it's obviated by the Divine Power he routinely casts to boost his BAB, so, when he's outta Divine Power, he might concievably cast Bull's Strength.
Olskool 02-10-07, 04:54 PM	I'm guessing the kind that's under 10th level - the highest level spell listed there is 2nd. Thank you. When you discuss balance on these boards, unless you give a 20th lvl character as your example, people act like you're speaking a different language. The majority of the game is played way below lvl 20. I really don't undertand why super high level is always the default assumption in balance discussions.
Tony Vargas 02-10-07, 05:26 PM	I really don't undertand why super high level is always the default assumption in balance discussions.Honestly, it's probably because that's where the game is least balanced. You tend to see every WotC-published book pulled into it, too, which also degrades game balance. It's "Go prospecting where the gold is." The inference, though - that obviously imbalanced at 20th level must mean the same imbalance exists among the same classes across the board at all levels, just in less obvious form - doesn't strike me as valid.
Olskool 02-10-07, 05:33 PM	The inference, though - that obviously imbalanced at 20th level must mean the same imbalance exists among the same classes across the board at all levels, just in less obvious form - doesn't strike me as valid. Ain't that the truth.
Rivelstraz 02-10-07, 06:13 PM	So, with lower magical item availability, fighters should have it even harder to fight against clerics (or druids or wizards).
Olskool 02-10-07, 06:16 PM	So, with lower magical item availability, fighters should have it even harder to fight against clerics (or druids or wizards). If you say so.
Ghenesh 02-10-07, 06:34 PM	You should play a low-magic campaign and allow spellcasters and monsters just as written.
Olskool 02-10-07, 06:40 PM	You should play a low-magic campaign and allow spellcasters and monsters just as written. I do.
Ghenesh 02-10-07, 06:43 PM	And how does your fighter deal with dragons? No, wait... i know, the DM never makes them fly, use his breath weapon nor grapple or crush. I'll quote myself just so you know that i'm not a jerk that's just trying to irritate you, this is truly my impression on the fighter: Many players are dissatisfied with the fighter class because they actually "want" to play the class and not regret it later (i'm one of them). You must observe that this feeling is solely based on higher level (11+) optimization, below this and/or on a non-optimized play the fighter can be a decent class (below par in power but decent after all). Those who claim that "pure fighters" suck to the level of unplayability surely play in a highly optimized party, where power acquisition is maybe the main motivation and reason of fun for the players, and there's nothing wrong with it, after all there's nothing on the PHB explaining where the fun of the game comes from. I do play in a high level campaign where optimization is the main dish, and playing a 20th level fighter is not an option to me, i would bore to death if i do so, i wouldn't be doing much in combat and... that's it, fighter only activates during combat, so i share many of the fighter's suckitude coments, but it depends heavily on the campaign type, DM bias and party motivation.
Crashy75 02-10-07, 06:43 PM	Well, since you've already decided what my house rules are, you certainly don't seem to need my input for the discussion. Wow. I didn't mean to offend. I simply made a request for more information.
WackyOne 02-10-07, 06:58 PM	I do. I do too. Core only, single class, and no PrCs by the way - the DM is trying to get back some AD&D flavour. What is happening? Nothing strange - just the usual "the casters rule", but at level 10 (with equip worthy of lvl 5 characters) instead of 17+. The fighter is starting to feel useless, having done less damage than the druid's summon (he didn't want to exaggerate, so only one) in the latest combat encounter (the summon was an arrowhawk, and the climatic encounter was with a dragon... he could have expected it - but it bothers the fighter) Now, I'd say that we are missing, by a lot, the desidered balance. But, then again, we are talking to the DM to shuffle things up.
Olskool 02-10-07, 07:06 PM	And how does your fighter deal with dragons? No, wait... i know, the DM never makes them fly, use his breath weapon nor grapple or crush. I'll quote myself just so you know that i'm not a jerk that's just trying to irritate you, this is truly my impression on the fighter: I am the DM. Dragons fly and use thir breath weapons as well. If they're big enough to use snatch, then they'll grapple. They tend not to crush since we play below lvl 12 (wasn't I saying something about this before?) and most dragons that are capable of crushing are well beyond their ability to deal with. Know how my fighters handle them? They use ranged attacks, or ready an action to stab the dragon during their flyby attack. If a dragon lands to take a full attack, then the fighters go mellee too.
FrostHammer 02-10-07, 07:48 PM	And they win just by doing that? Dragons have humongous reach and will most likely own in melee, and they can sit within their melee reach but outside of your melee distance. If you pull out a bow, they get to smack you with Attacks of Opportunities. If you move first, not only do you get smacked for moving out of a threatened square, but now you can only attack once with a standard action.
Encard 02-10-07, 08:03 PM	You know... Just as an example, black dragons are Large at CR 11 and Huge at CR 14. That's 5 ft reach (10 with bite) and 10 ft. reach (15 with bite) at the respective CR's. Those don't really count as massive reach, I think, and those are the sort of dragon the party would probably be facing at level 12. A reach fighter with Enlarge Person could do better. Not to say that the fighter class is great and snazzy, but some of what was said doesn't seem fully accurate.
FrostHammer 02-10-07, 08:05 PM	I thought Dragons had more reach than that. And this is a fight between the fighter than the dragon, not fighter and wizard ally. I don't think a fighter can take on a dragon alone in most circumstances.
Olskool 02-10-07, 10:00 PM	I don't think a fighter can take on a dragon alone in most circumstances. I wasn't saying they could. But then again, no other single class can take on a dragon of equal CR either. So what's your point?
FrostHammer 02-10-07, 10:17 PM	That the fighter has MUCH LESS of a chance than spellcasters.
DaidojiTaidoru 02-10-07, 10:23 PM	I wasn't saying they could. But then again, no other single class can take on a dragon of equal CR either. So what's your point? I take that. This should be easy. Core or non Core?
Encard 02-10-07, 11:09 PM	There are some rather cheap items that can grant you Enlarge Person or similar effects... But, yeah, several other classes would probably have a much simpler time dealing with the dragon, unless it was a very specific fighter build. In a low/no magic item campaign, the difference would just be magnified, if for no reason other than simple ol' DR/magic.
theotherdraxen 02-10-07, 11:15 PM	I don't allow bards. The diplomacy rules are too broken. Depending on a DMs interpretation of the rules, they're either way to powerful, or way too weak. Have you seen Richard Burlew's system for diplomacy? You're right. I guess I'm not saying "the" system is fine. I'm saying "my" system is fine. Could we see it, please?
FrostHammer 02-10-07, 11:49 PM	The rest of us aren't playing "your" system, so you shouldn't be saying to us that "fighters make Druids and Clerics obsolete" in general because that only happens in YOUR games.
Olskool 02-11-07, 12:58 AM	Have you seen Richard Burlew's system for diplomacy? Could we see it, please? No. and No. It would take too much time. If you have any specific questions about my houserules I can answer em. But I don't wanna waste my time typing up every houserule I have.
Olskool 02-11-07, 01:01 AM	The rest of us aren't playing "your" system, so you shouldn't be saying to us that "fighters make Druids and Clerics obsolete" in general because that only happens in YOUR games. I'm not saying fighters do make other classes obsolete. I'm saying they CAN make em obsolete. And I don't see how my houserules, which I've only listed here as banning bards and not allowing magic weapons shops, make fighters significantly more powerful than in a RAW campaign.
theotherdraxen 02-11-07, 01:11 AM	No. Richard Burlew's diplomacy system (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html) is pretty good, although I don't recommend sticking to the exact DCs he gives, but yeah, they're nice. and No. It would take too much time. If you have any specific questions about my houserules I can answer em. But I don't wanna waste my time typing up every houserule I have. Can you post a few that pertain to fighters or perhaps to combat in general? Just a few that might make fighters a more favorable option, since I'd rather just take fighters as written and use a few houserules than make a complete redo. If it works for you, then it'll work for me, right?
megageek12 02-11-07, 01:20 AM	I wasn't saying they could. But then again, no other single class can take on a dragon of equal CR either. So what's your point? Yes they can. Ever a wizard, druid or cleric in action without your houserules? Visit the CO boards and inquire about it...
Belgian Waffle 02-11-07, 01:22 AM	No. and No. It would take too much time. If you have any specific questions about my houserules I can answer em. But I don't wanna waste my time typing up every houserule I have. Honestly, dude... can you even be considered as playing the same game (D&D) as we are if you've changed the game so much? Because it just seems like you're coming at this issue with a way different background than the rest of us.
Olskool 02-11-07, 03:29 AM	Richard Burlew's diplomacy system (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html) is pretty good, although I don't recommend sticking to the exact DCs he gives, but yeah, they're nice. Can you post a few that pertain to fighters or perhaps to combat in general? Just a few that might make fighters a more favorable option, since I'd rather just take fighters as written and use a few houserules than make a complete redo. If it works for you, then it'll work for me, right? My group prefers to just roleplay instead of making diplomacy checks. It's simpler. We trust each other and use common sense. It works efficiently and it's fun for us. Thanks for pointing out Burlew's rules though. I don't really change fighters much from RAW at all. I've changed dodge to provide a +1 to AC vs all attax instead of 1 a round. But that hasn't really made a world of difference. One of my players made his own prestige class that allowed him to have supreme cleave at 9th lvl. It made him unstoppable in mob fights w a reach weapon, but at that lvl he was supposed to be ripping up low level mooks anyways, so it wasn't too unbalancing either. Other than banning bards(they're pretty useless anyway since we don't use diplomacy rules), that's pretty much the extent of my house rules deviation from the RAW. So , no I wouldn't say that fighters are overpowered in my campaign due to special houserules.
Squirrelloid 02-11-07, 04:01 AM	My group prefers to just roleplay instead of making diplomacy checks. It's simpler. We trust each other and use common sense. It works efficiently and it's fun for us. Thanks for pointing out Burlew's rules though. I don't really change fighters much from RAW at all. I've changed dodge to provide a +1 to AC vs all attax instead of 1 a round. But that hasn't really made a world of difference. One of my players made his own prestige class that allowed him to have supreme cleave at 9th lvl. It made him unstoppable in mob fights w a reach weapon, but at that lvl he was supposed to be ripping up low level mooks anyways, so it wasn't too unbalancing either. Other than banning bards(they're pretty useless anyway since we don't use diplomacy rules), that's pretty much the extent of my house rules deviation from the RAW. So , no I wouldn't say that fighters are overpowered in my campaign due to special houserules. Your caster players must suck. Do the wizards cast fireball? (If the answer is yes I pity them).
Olskool 02-11-07, 04:13 AM	Your caster players must suck. Do the wizards cast fireball? (If the answer is yes I pity them). When they reach 5th level, and it's appropriate to the situation, yes. Yes they sometimes do. I'm not sure why it's such a bad idea to kill 16 goblins with one spell, so in this case I'll just have to bow to your obviously superior experience.But I'll tell my players you said they suck and you pity them for you. My, won't their faces be red. You big meany, you. They'll simply be mortified. Oh Mercy!
Squirrelloid 02-11-07, 04:17 AM	When they reach 5th level, and it's appropriate to the situation, yes. Yes they sometimes do. I'm not sure why it's such a bad idea to kill 16 goblins with one spell, so in this case I'll just have to bow to your obviously superior experience.But I'll tell my players you said they suck and you pity them for you. My, won't their faces be red. You big meany, you. They'll simply be mortified. Oh Mercy! I'm not even going to ask why 5th level characters are still fighting goblins... More seriously, if you're going to have a fighter around, why waste your spell resources on a combat the fighter can take himself (or the druid, or the cleric, or geez, just about anyone but you. And its your top tier spell slot too).
Olskool 02-11-07, 04:20 AM	I'm not even going to ask why 5th level characters are still fighting goblins... Really? In Dungeons and Dragons? You've never seen a wizard fireball a bunch of goblins? Wow. Sorry man.
Squirrelloid 02-11-07, 04:35 AM	Really? In Dungeons and Dragons? You've never seen a wizard fireball a bunch of goblins? Wow. Sorry man. Not since 2nd edition. Direct damage became relatively worse - its not worth the opportunity cost to acquire fireball, much less memorize it.
malisteen 02-11-07, 12:44 PM	My main problem with Fighter has always been his uselessness out of combat. What he does in combat isn't worth giving up all out of combat utility. I can build a fighter who's better in a fight then a barbarian, ranger, or paladin, but I'd much rather play any of those three classes due to better skill lists, better skill points, useful (out of combat) class abilities, or a combination of the above. Rangers and Paladins can use useful wands, Barbarians and Rangers make decent watchmen & have wilderness survival skills, a Paladin can make a great party Face and fill in as an emergency healer (answering the 'who heals the healer' question), Barbarians are fast and dodgy, and Rangers make excellent scouts. All of these together make for entire worlds of gameplay possibilities that the fighters lack of class abilities, poor skill points, and lackluster skill list bar him from. And the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger can still swing a sword or shoot a bow well enough to contribute significantly to combat for the first several levels. And note that I didn't compare fighters to spellcasters once so far. The Spellcaster/Non-Spellcaster rift in D&D is a serious issues entirely apart from the problems with Fighter. Spellcasters of sufficient level can do anything that any other class can do, only better. That's the nature of 9th level spellcasting. But even if you ignore that, even if you ignore the fact that 'party tank' becomes a useless, or at best secondary roll by high levels (when there's nothing a Tank could do to prevent an opponent from striking whatever party member he wanted, and even if he could save-or-dies make his static ac & hit point reserve useless anyway), even if you just compare fighter to the other tank classes out there, once you consider that D&D isn't always just a succession of kick-in-the-door encounters, then you see that the Fighter class does, indeed, have some real problems.
scienceman47 02-11-07, 09:55 PM	You would think the roleplaying elitism would make people dump the fighter like a bad habit. Most fighters I've seen end up being the strong silent types in the background, and in dungeons they end up being a medium sized donkey. Perfect for carrying ****, and not much else.
malisteen 02-11-07, 11:54 PM	Keep an eye out for Star Wars d20: Saga Edition this May. The current Star Wars d20 already makes the Soldier (their equivalent of fighter) a much more valid choice by toning magic way down compared to D&D and giving the Soldier a good skill list and a bunch more skill points. Supposedly the SW:SE Soldier goes even further, with unique class abilities as well, some of which might be easy to translate into D&D Fighters.
navar100 02-12-07, 05:36 PM	Here is the problem with any and all "Fighter Sucks!" and "Fighter is Good!" debates: They never argue on the same level. The argument usually is not that the fighter isn't good, just that they aren't good compared to the "Big Three" (i.e. Druid, Cleric and Wizard) at high levels. Now, a competant fighter will beat down a non-powergamed Druid/Cleric/Wizard. Yes folks, there are people out there who do NOT abuse Wildshape/Divine Metamagic/Save or Die or whatever the latest Wizard fad is. There are people who take Eschew Materials and Toughness as their feats as a Human Wizard at 1st level because it makes sense for the character. There are people who specialize in Evocation because they think blowing stuff up is cool. Not everyone adheres to the "Only combinations x, y and z are any good, and anything else sucks so much nobody in their right mind would play it" mentality that seems to prevalent here. A min/maxed or cherry-picked caster will own a Fighter at high levels because the Fighter just can't compete with all the random effects the spellcasters can throw out. That doesn't make the class BAD. Remember, the biggest thing people forget when they try to do a comparison is that you aren't competing with your party's Wizard! It doesn't matter if he could beat the crap out of you in a fight, because unless you're a backstabbing jerk you won't ever be put in that situation. The game is about working together, not trying to one-up each other and see who's better. In short: If you want to play a Fighter 20, go right ahead. Nobody except the twinks on the CO boards (and their allies) will look at you like you're a masochist. Don't worry about "balance" against people you should be working in tandem with and not against, because the game isn't about that. Ignore the people who tell you to abuse this, that or the other thing (Polymorph and Wildshape, I'm looking at you) to be able to do ridiculous damage; doing that won't get you friends.. it'll make you enemies and you may find yourself without a gaming group. :clap: :clap: Then there are the people who demand the fighter compensate them for "wasting" a spell on them to help them out, such as Fly or Displacement, because figthers are so "useless" on their own. :rolleyes:
DaidojiTaidoru 02-12-07, 05:47 PM	Then there are the people who demand the fighter compensate them for "wasting" a spell on them to help them out, such as Fly or Displacement, because figthers are so "useless" on their own. :rolleyes: I feel more for the poor fighter who has to sit, realizing he's useless unless the wizard casts fly on him, while the wizard debates if it would be safer to cast fly on the warrior or cast the spell that wins the fight. Being forced to rely on other classes to even start doing your job is lame.
Francius 02-12-07, 05:48 PM	thats great. i bet a Warblade of the same level could PWNINATE him. why? Because Feats every other level < Maneuvers every level. p.s. your not super keen on the damage output of Wizards, Clerics Or Druids are you? (This post bears no relation to the thread's argument) Hey Kadeity,can you please post me a link to your Ranger/Scout build you posted on the CO boards? I found it interesting when I read it but I forgot to add it to my favs and now after the mass of threads in the CO that surmounted it, I've lost it. Thanks.
theotherdraxen 02-12-07, 05:53 PM	:clap: :clap: Then there are the people who demand the fighter compensate them for "wasting" a spell on them to help them out, such as Fly or Displacement, because figthers are so "useless" on their own. :rolleyes: Thanks to the database error, I can't access the thing you quoted, or our rebuttal to it. However, I do recall that Seerow responded to it nicely (explaining that we also compare fighters to a lot more than just the big three). This rebuttal, to my knowledge, has not been either shut down or conceded to, so WayneTheGame's argument is rather moot at the moment. At least until he resolidfies his point or retracts it. I hope I'm coming across clearly here.