About Scouts and Skirmish.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

About Scouts and Skirmish.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saron5
01-10-06, 10:52 PM I warn you, this is quite lengthy, but I want to explain all of my questions/theories so that I can get a good answer.

So, I've been strictly against scouts, mainly due to the fact that if you ever want to full attack..you have to ignore one of the better features of the class.

It has come to my attention as of late however, that this may be avoided, I had some ideas..and would like someone to basically tell me if I'm wrong or not.

First off Mounted Combat: I've read very thoroughly on mounted combat, and the description of Skirmish. Skirmish reads that you deal the extra damage in any round that you move at least 10 feet. As a direct quote from the Wizards.com article "All About Mounts (Part One)" "When you and your mount move, the two of you use your mount's speed rating, adjusted for the mount's encumbrance and the terrain. Because your mount takes you along with it when it moves, a move for your mount also counts as a move for you."

Taking this into account, the way it reads..one would assume that if you are mounted, and you move at least 10 feet, any atack you make would deal skirmish damage. Now..in the same article (Part Four) It states that you may make a full ranged attack while mounted either before or after the movement. If I understand this correctly, you can move with the mount, then make a full ranged attack, with skirmish damage. Skirmish also plainly states that the damage applies to ALL attacks made in the round that you move at least 10 feet. So if I'm understand correctly, you could have your mount move 10+feet, and make a full attack, adding the AC bonus, and skirmish damage to every attack. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Another question I had: If you take advantage of class ability such as from Wild Plains Outriders "Wild Plains Offensive" Which allows you to make a full melee attack as long as your mount takes only a single move, would this skirmish damage apply in full to that as well?

The other thing I had thought about was using feats that allow you to make more than one attack to get around this. Rapid shot states that you must make a full attack, so that's out of the question. Manyshot..however, states that as a standard action you make make a single attack with two arrows at a single target within 30 feet, plus an additional arrow
for every 5 more BaB. This would work VERY well, because you can move 10+ feet to get your skirmish bonus, then as a standard action use manyshot to attack a single enemy multiple times. Now, Manyshot DOES state that precision based damage such as sneak attack only works on one of the arrows that does damage. However, Skirmish is not precision based, and once again..states that it affects ALL attacks.

Sorry for the extremely long post, if anybody could answer any of these questions about whether or not these methods would work, along with any other possible solutions, it would be greatly appreciated.
jonnyrue2u
01-10-06, 11:44 PM To answer your question. No, you cannot use a mount's movement with the Skirmish ability (found in the Complete Adv. Errata).

And I have a question about Skirmish myself. If you use the Elocater's Capricious Step (XPH) ability to gain another 5 ft step, does that extra step and the first 5 ft step count towards a 10 ft total movement, and gain the Skirmish damage with a full attack?

And does Haste work towards the same goal, giving you an extra move action, along with the normal standard and move action?
Blaque
01-11-06, 01:21 AM Haste gives you movement speed, ubt not movement actions, I think.

A little toy I found neat is something called a bloodspike, from Magic of Eberron. There's a kind that costs 150 gp that gives you an extra move action within the hour after you inject it.

So a few of these about could be helpful for an oppening full-attack, but admitedly, you cna't rely on them too much.

There's also a psionic power called Hustle that gives you an extra move, and it's level two. Making an item of that might help out a lot.

Stuff.
Sae Cael Oanar
01-11-06, 06:54 AM hustle and psionic lions charge both let you get the full attack.
dc 45 tumble check for a ten foot step, so you can full attack.
manyshot makes for an awesome skirmished ability.
training dummy in the aeg lets you get a ten foot step (you need monk levels to use it)
Blaque
01-11-06, 08:52 AM Another tactic ist he Greater Manyshot feat from the XPH. This wil help deal with the "no more then one attack with skirmish" issue right quick, I think.

Stuff.
Todd
01-11-06, 09:10 AM And I have a question about Skirmish myself. If you use the Elocater's Capricious Step (XPH) ability to gain another 5 ft step, does that extra step and the first 5 ft step count towards a 10 ft total movement, and gain the Skirmish damage with a full attack?

Yes. However it's not easy to really work a lot of Elocator & Scout levels into a non-gestalt build. So it's doable ... but probably not optimal in most cases.

Catfolk Charge is good for full attack charges.

hustle and psionic lions charge both let you get the full attack.

Technically Hustle does not get you the full attack after a charge. Charging is a full round action in most cases ... just adding an extra move action will not, in and of itself grant full attacks in a charde. However Psionic Lion's Charge, a different Psychic Warrior power of the same level will do the job just fine.

And hustle is still good for meeting the "move 10' or more" and then doing whatever you want.
Keenath
01-11-06, 09:26 AM This is probably only tangential to the discussion, but notice that the text says "Any attack made during a turn in which you move.." That means you can make an attack for skirmish damage, and THEN move ten feet. As long as you declare your intent to move away, theoretically, that attack was during a turn in which you moved ten feet...

You could charge in, attack, then attack and back away, and get skirmish on both of them. Although then I wonder what happens if your getaway provokes an AOO and you get tripped, thus stopping you from moving away...

In any case, I see Skirmish (in melee, at least) as more along the lines of making charging a good option than something that should allow you full attacks. With a bow, just keep moving and shooting.

Edit: Oh, yeah. I do know a feat that could help; Snow Tiger Pounce, from Unapproachable East. As of Player's Guide to Faerun, it no longer is a Regional feat, and your DM will probably forgive the prereq about getting into the barbarian tribe.

The feat has Rage as a prereq, so obviously you'd have to multiclass. Upshot -- you can pounce (full attack after a charge) so long as you use only a light weapon. You can use TWF with it, too, but only if all the weapons you use are light.
Kurotowa
01-11-06, 11:55 AM First, everyone needs to read the ComAd errata. "The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted." So you can't get skirmish damage then move, or use a mount. Also, skirmish IS precision damage, as it uses all the same clauses and restrictions as sneak attack damage. So with that said, the three best ways to use skirmish.

Spring Attack: Needs little explanation. You're already moving and making a standard attack. It's on the Scout bonus feats list. Plus Scouts get Fast Movement. It's really the best route for melee Scouts, letting them spring around avoiding full attacks while getting skirmish damage to their own hits.

Greater Manyshot: The goal of all ranged scouts. Multiple aplications of skirmish damage while staying behind the front lines. What's not to like.

Dervish: The Dervish Dance is the best way of getting a full attack plus skirmish. Unfortunately it also means giving up your Scout advancement. But if you really want to focus on your melee at the expense of all else, a Scout 7/Dervish 10 is not a bad choice. Note that in a gestalt game this combination becomes much much more attractive.
Saron5
01-11-06, 03:27 PM While I do agree that Skirmish is precision damage in the fact that it does not apply on creatures that are immune to criticals, and that they have to have a discernible anatomy, however, it specifically states that the damage applies to all attacks made on the scouts turn. That seems slightly contradictory, when reading different rules from different books, it seems to me that they overlap slightly, any insight on this, especially for manyshot, as opposed to greater manyshot?

Also, a question about spring attack was..I seem to recall there being an improved, or greater version of spring attack, was this a feat, or prestige class ability, or am I completely mistaken? If anybody could let me know, would be great.
Father Dale
01-12-06, 11:07 AM Kurotowa is right on the ways to get multiple skirmish attacks in a single round.

One other way is to take 5 levels of Tempest from Comp. Adventurer, which lets you attack with two weapons on a spring attack. However, this is a sub-obtimal way to do that, having to invest the feats and the class levels in order to get a single extra skirmish attack a round.

Personally I think the ranged scout with Greater Manyshot, combined with the normal archery feats and Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild) is a great combo, although it takes a few levels before you become realy viable. But the ability to Greater Manyshot, move, and hide while in natural settings is pretty neat.
Jerks
01-12-06, 11:45 AM While I do agree that Skirmish is precision damage in the fact that it does not apply on creatures that are immune to criticals, and that they have to have a discernible anatomy, however, it specifically states that the damage applies to all attacks made on the scouts turn. That seems slightly contradictory, when reading different rules from different books, it seems to me that they overlap slightly, any insight on this, especially for manyshot, as opposed to greater manyshot?

Also, a question about spring attack was..I seem to recall there being an improved, or greater version of spring attack, was this a feat, or prestige class ability, or am I completely mistaken? If anybody could let me know, would be great.

The fact that the Scout gets to apply Skirmish to all attacks he makes on his turn doesn't contradict the fact that it's Precision Damage. The classic example is the Rogues and flat-footed opponents. If a rogue gets surprise on an opponent, they can sneak attack in the surprise round, and then if they win initiative (and the opponent is flat-footed), they get sneak attack damage on EVERY attack they make until that opponent's turn in initiative.

Really, the Complete Adventurer errata is required reading for anyone playing a Scout. It really clears up the skirmish ability.

I'm not sure about any greater versions of Spring Attack. If there are, they must be class features of some prestige class somewhere.
Kurotowa
01-12-06, 04:49 PM I'm not sure about any greater versions of Spring Attack. If there are, they must be class features of some prestige class somewhere.

ComAd has a couple of options. One is the Tempest PrC Father Dale mentioned. Its Two-Weapon Spring Attack lets you attack with two weapons when using Spring Attack, but unless you're playing gestalt the five levels required is a large commitment. The other is the Dual Strike feat, which lets you attack with two weapons as a standard action and is a good match for Spring Attack. However like Manyshot that only allows precision damage to be applied once and so isn't the best choice for a Scout.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saron5 01-10-06, 10:52 PM	I warn you, this is quite lengthy, but I want to explain all of my questions/theories so that I can get a good answer. So, I've been strictly against scouts, mainly due to the fact that if you ever want to full attack..you have to ignore one of the better features of the class. It has come to my attention as of late however, that this may be avoided, I had some ideas..and would like someone to basically tell me if I'm wrong or not. First off Mounted Combat: I've read very thoroughly on mounted combat, and the description of Skirmish. Skirmish reads that you deal the extra damage in any round that you move at least 10 feet. As a direct quote from the Wizards.com article "All About Mounts (Part One)" "When you and your mount move, the two of you use your mount's speed rating, adjusted for the mount's encumbrance and the terrain. Because your mount takes you along with it when it moves, a move for your mount also counts as a move for you." Taking this into account, the way it reads..one would assume that if you are mounted, and you move at least 10 feet, any atack you make would deal skirmish damage. Now..in the same article (Part Four) It states that you may make a full ranged attack while mounted either before or after the movement. If I understand this correctly, you can move with the mount, then make a full ranged attack, with skirmish damage. Skirmish also plainly states that the damage applies to ALL attacks made in the round that you move at least 10 feet. So if I'm understand correctly, you could have your mount move 10+feet, and make a full attack, adding the AC bonus, and skirmish damage to every attack. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Another question I had: If you take advantage of class ability such as from Wild Plains Outriders "Wild Plains Offensive" Which allows you to make a full melee attack as long as your mount takes only a single move, would this skirmish damage apply in full to that as well? The other thing I had thought about was using feats that allow you to make more than one attack to get around this. Rapid shot states that you must make a full attack, so that's out of the question. Manyshot..however, states that as a standard action you make make a single attack with two arrows at a single target within 30 feet, plus an additional arrow for every 5 more BaB. This would work VERY well, because you can move 10+ feet to get your skirmish bonus, then as a standard action use manyshot to attack a single enemy multiple times. Now, Manyshot DOES state that precision based damage such as sneak attack only works on one of the arrows that does damage. However, Skirmish is not precision based, and once again..states that it affects ALL attacks. Sorry for the extremely long post, if anybody could answer any of these questions about whether or not these methods would work, along with any other possible solutions, it would be greatly appreciated.
jonnyrue2u 01-10-06, 11:44 PM	To answer your question. No, you cannot use a mount's movement with the Skirmish ability (found in the Complete Adv. Errata). And I have a question about Skirmish myself. If you use the Elocater's Capricious Step (XPH) ability to gain another 5 ft step, does that extra step and the first 5 ft step count towards a 10 ft total movement, and gain the Skirmish damage with a full attack? And does Haste work towards the same goal, giving you an extra move action, along with the normal standard and move action?
Blaque 01-11-06, 01:21 AM	Haste gives you movement speed, ubt not movement actions, I think. A little toy I found neat is something called a bloodspike, from Magic of Eberron. There's a kind that costs 150 gp that gives you an extra move action within the hour after you inject it. So a few of these about could be helpful for an oppening full-attack, but admitedly, you cna't rely on them too much. There's also a psionic power called Hustle that gives you an extra move, and it's level two. Making an item of that might help out a lot. Stuff.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-11-06, 06:54 AM	hustle and psionic lions charge both let you get the full attack. dc 45 tumble check for a ten foot step, so you can full attack. manyshot makes for an awesome skirmished ability. training dummy in the aeg lets you get a ten foot step (you need monk levels to use it)
Blaque 01-11-06, 08:52 AM	Another tactic ist he Greater Manyshot feat from the XPH. This wil help deal with the "no more then one attack with skirmish" issue right quick, I think. Stuff.
Todd 01-11-06, 09:10 AM	And I have a question about Skirmish myself. If you use the Elocater's Capricious Step (XPH) ability to gain another 5 ft step, does that extra step and the first 5 ft step count towards a 10 ft total movement, and gain the Skirmish damage with a full attack? Yes. However it's not easy to really work a lot of Elocator & Scout levels into a non-gestalt build. So it's doable ... but probably not optimal in most cases. Catfolk Charge is good for full attack charges. hustle and psionic lions charge both let you get the full attack. Technically Hustle does not get you the full attack after a charge. Charging is a full round action in most cases ... just adding an extra move action will not, in and of itself grant full attacks in a charde. However Psionic Lion's Charge, a different Psychic Warrior power of the same level will do the job just fine. And hustle is still good for meeting the "move 10' or more" and then doing whatever you want.
Keenath 01-11-06, 09:26 AM	This is probably only tangential to the discussion, but notice that the text says "Any attack made during a turn in which you move.." That means you can make an attack for skirmish damage, and THEN move ten feet. As long as you declare your intent to move away, theoretically, that attack was during a turn in which you moved ten feet... You could charge in, attack, then attack and back away, and get skirmish on both of them. Although then I wonder what happens if your getaway provokes an AOO and you get tripped, thus stopping you from moving away... In any case, I see Skirmish (in melee, at least) as more along the lines of making charging a good option than something that should allow you full attacks. With a bow, just keep moving and shooting. Edit: Oh, yeah. I do know a feat that could help; Snow Tiger Pounce, from Unapproachable East. As of Player's Guide to Faerun, it no longer is a Regional feat, and your DM will probably forgive the prereq about getting into the barbarian tribe. The feat has Rage as a prereq, so obviously you'd have to multiclass. Upshot -- you can pounce (full attack after a charge) so long as you use only a light weapon. You can use TWF with it, too, but only if all the weapons you use are light.
Kurotowa 01-11-06, 11:55 AM	First, everyone needs to read the ComAd errata. "The extra damage applies only to attacks made after the scout has moved at least 10 feet. The skirmish ability cannot be used while mounted." So you can't get skirmish damage then move, or use a mount. Also, skirmish IS precision damage, as it uses all the same clauses and restrictions as sneak attack damage. So with that said, the three best ways to use skirmish. Spring Attack: Needs little explanation. You're already moving and making a standard attack. It's on the Scout bonus feats list. Plus Scouts get Fast Movement. It's really the best route for melee Scouts, letting them spring around avoiding full attacks while getting skirmish damage to their own hits. Greater Manyshot: The goal of all ranged scouts. Multiple aplications of skirmish damage while staying behind the front lines. What's not to like. Dervish: The Dervish Dance is the best way of getting a full attack plus skirmish. Unfortunately it also means giving up your Scout advancement. But if you really want to focus on your melee at the expense of all else, a Scout 7/Dervish 10 is not a bad choice. Note that in a gestalt game this combination becomes much much more attractive.
Saron5 01-11-06, 03:27 PM	While I do agree that Skirmish is precision damage in the fact that it does not apply on creatures that are immune to criticals, and that they have to have a discernible anatomy, however, it specifically states that the damage applies to all attacks made on the scouts turn. That seems slightly contradictory, when reading different rules from different books, it seems to me that they overlap slightly, any insight on this, especially for manyshot, as opposed to greater manyshot? Also, a question about spring attack was..I seem to recall there being an improved, or greater version of spring attack, was this a feat, or prestige class ability, or am I completely mistaken? If anybody could let me know, would be great.
Father Dale 01-12-06, 11:07 AM	Kurotowa is right on the ways to get multiple skirmish attacks in a single round. One other way is to take 5 levels of Tempest from Comp. Adventurer, which lets you attack with two weapons on a spring attack. However, this is a sub-obtimal way to do that, having to invest the feats and the class levels in order to get a single extra skirmish attack a round. Personally I think the ranged scout with Greater Manyshot, combined with the normal archery feats and Woodland Archer (Races of the Wild) is a great combo, although it takes a few levels before you become realy viable. But the ability to Greater Manyshot, move, and hide while in natural settings is pretty neat.
Jerks 01-12-06, 11:45 AM	While I do agree that Skirmish is precision damage in the fact that it does not apply on creatures that are immune to criticals, and that they have to have a discernible anatomy, however, it specifically states that the damage applies to all attacks made on the scouts turn. That seems slightly contradictory, when reading different rules from different books, it seems to me that they overlap slightly, any insight on this, especially for manyshot, as opposed to greater manyshot? Also, a question about spring attack was..I seem to recall there being an improved, or greater version of spring attack, was this a feat, or prestige class ability, or am I completely mistaken? If anybody could let me know, would be great. The fact that the Scout gets to apply Skirmish to all attacks he makes on his turn doesn't contradict the fact that it's Precision Damage. The classic example is the Rogues and flat-footed opponents. If a rogue gets surprise on an opponent, they can sneak attack in the surprise round, and then if they win initiative (and the opponent is flat-footed), they get sneak attack damage on EVERY attack they make until that opponent's turn in initiative. Really, the Complete Adventurer errata is required reading for anyone playing a Scout. It really clears up the skirmish ability. I'm not sure about any greater versions of Spring Attack. If there are, they must be class features of some prestige class somewhere.
Kurotowa 01-12-06, 04:49 PM	I'm not sure about any greater versions of Spring Attack. If there are, they must be class features of some prestige class somewhere. ComAd has a couple of options. One is the Tempest PrC Father Dale mentioned. Its Two-Weapon Spring Attack lets you attack with two weapons when using Spring Attack, but unless you're playing gestalt the five levels required is a large commitment. The other is the Dual Strike feat, which lets you attack with two weapons as a standard action and is a good match for Spring Attack. However like Manyshot that only allows precision damage to be applied once and so isn't the best choice for a Scout.