Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ambu 12-18-06, 08:03 AM	NOTE: THERE IS ANOTHER PROPOSAL FURTHER DOWN! I am a long time lurker in several forums of D20. In almost all of them, most players regard the fighter class as underpowered, compared to most other standard classes. I belong to the camp that says that you should play a class because it fits the concept you have in mind, not because it can beat another class in an arena match. However, I also see the merit of the opinion that if you are struggling to be useful then it severely limits your playing fun, rollplaying or roleplaying-wise. So I believe that fighter need to revisit the drawing board and I am willing to give it a try. I will start with the following presuppositions: - The fighter's flavor must be preserved. That means it must also be somewhat defined first. - The fighter must not step into other classes' toes. It must be a class with something unique to play - I do not believe that I am more capable than the designers of WoC. Thus, I will try to incorporate elements already existing, if at all possible. So, where do we begin? Let's start with flavor. The PH says "The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary and the bandit king-a ll are fighters.... fighters can be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions or criminal enforcers." And later: " Of all the classes, the fighter has the best all around capabilities" although that really did not need clarification. Where does that leave us? The fighter must be the master of combat and be able to fill many roles, not necessary simultaneously. This ties nicely with our second presupposition because what the fighter has is versatility. He gets many many feats. That is his most defining characteristic. This is what we should encourage. What are the flaws the fighter has, according to most? First, in higher levels he is outshined by the cleric, if the cleric wants to. Secondly, there are precious little he can do outside of combat. As for the first, well, since the advent of the PHII there are many feats that make the fighter somewhat more capable at higher levels. But there is also the skills problem. He cannot get more skillpoints, as that radically changes the balance between the classes ( I for one, would give extra two skill points in all classes and be done with it, but I realize I am a minority.) To address all the above I look into what the designers have done. Monte Cook, in his variant PH Arcana Evolved has gone with the route of giving specific capabilities in specific levels, in addition to upping the die to d12. The Nine Swords book has the Warblade, who also has d12 and some very interesting capabilities. Let's see what I propose: CHANGE ONE: The fighter gets TWO good saves, to be chosen by the player in first level. CHANGE TWO: The levels the fighter does not get a feat, he should get an ability. CHANGE THREE: The fighter must get something skill wise. His list broadens to include Gather information, Spot OR Listen and Survival. These are two reflect the background from which he came. The guards usually know their city and have contacts within. Guards and sentries must be able to.. guard. And soldiers learn something of living of the land, maybe even become trackers. I do not think the above steal the thunder of the rogue or the ranger. FIGHTER Hit Die: d10. Saves: TWO good, chosen at first level, the third bad Class Skills The fighter’s class skills are Climb, Craft, Gather information, Handle Animal, Intimidate Jump, Spot OR listen, Ride, Survival and Swim . Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier. Table: The Fighter Level Special 1st Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Learn the hard way 2nd Bonus feat 3rd Battle ardor(critical confirmation) 4th Bonus feat 5th 6th Bonus feat 7th 8th Bonus feat 9th Battle cunning(damage) 10th Bonus feat 11th 12th Bonus feat 13th Battle skill (opposed checks) 14th Bonus feat 15th 16th Bonus feat 17th Battle mastery 18th Bonus feat 19th 20th Bonus feat Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Learn the hard way: The fighter gets 2 free skillpoints at first level, which he must spend in ONE of these skills:Gather information, Spot OR Listen, Survival. He gets an additional free skillpoint for every fighter level he has, which he also must spend in the skill he chose in the first level Weapon aptitude, Battle ardor(critical confirmation), Battle cunning, Battle skill, Battle mastery: As the warblade With the above, I believe fighter gets more versatile while the warblade (from whom many abilities he now shares) still has his manouevers to make him different
Howland Reed 12-18-06, 08:51 AM	I think you're on the right track, especially in terms of incorporating new abilities rather than re-creating the fighter from the ground up, increasing outside of combat utility, and decreasing dead levels. However (no offense meant), you have basically turned the fighter into a modified Warblade, with no maneuvers. I will grant that the Warblade has several features attractive to a fighter (and I've said before, the Warblade is what the fighter should have been)...but unless you plan to not use ToB material, I don't know that I'd take this fighter version when I could just take a Warblade. Two other minor quibbles...the 2 bonus skills at 1st is nice, but not truly a noncombat fix. I agree with you totally about giving all the 2 skpt classes 4 points. I wouldn't even necessarily increase anyone else's...Barbarians and Druids are attractive enough that 4 pts keeps them competitive. I might raise Monks to 6, Bards to 8, and Rogues to 10 (just to keep rogues as the clear skill-masters). Rangers I could go either way...6 or 8, they're probably a balance class. Finally, I have to admit I hate the "choose 2 good saves" option, which many people have submitted. Mainly because I hate flexing saves...no other class does this. Secondarily, I don't feel fighters need 2 good saves. If they need better saves, give them special abilities (or let them take feats) that boost them, rather than giving them a better save progression (this is how the Barbarian, Warblade, and Crusader get around the "bad saves" problem). If you were interested, here's a fighter mod I came up with, which simply takes the base fighter, adds a few skills, and 4-5 special abilities (like a rogue's). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=756296
RobbyPants 12-18-06, 11:37 AM	I like the general idea. Fort as a good save is probably enough though... Also, try filling in the blank levels with something minor. Right now, it looks like your build has dead levels at 5, 7, 11, 15, and 19. I read an article once where they had a few things to fill it with. Some of them were small stat boosts used for specific circumstances. Perhaps at level 5, you can choose to gain a +2 bonus on Str checks for either trip, bull rush, etc... Perhaps slightly lessening the ACP could work. The fighter could choose to reduce the ACP by one for his armor (or maybe one type of armor) at one of these choices. Perhaps at a high enough level, the fighter could gains some sort of minor energy or spell resistance. I wouldn't want to give him any magical offensive powers of his own, but perhaps his extreme martial training has hardened him against magic a bit. Maybe a +2 save against certain types of effects. Some of these things in the right combination could make the fighter much better at a couple of roles. These are just a couple of ideas. Certainly, the ablilities don't need to be earth shattering, but at least it gives a little more incentive to climb the class in levels.
Ghenesh 12-18-06, 12:36 PM	- The fighter's flavor must be preserved. That means it must also be somewhat defined first. - The fighter must not step into other classes' toes. It must be a class with something unique to play. - I do not believe that I am more capable than the designers of WoC. Thus, I will try to incorporate elements already existing, if at all possible. Concur completely, but the first point you just got it by keeping the Fighter Bonus Feats. The second point explicitly requires exclusive class features... and this is the big problem in the forums, everyone want diferent things, some want maneuvers, some improved feats, others more resistances, etc. But there is also the skills problem. He cannot get more skillpoints, as that radically changes the balance between the classes. What balance? CHANGE ONE: The fighter gets TWO good saves, to be chosen by the player in first level. CHANGE TWO: The levels the fighter does not get a feat, he should get an ability. CHANGE THREE: The fighter must get something skill wise. His list broadens to include Gather information, Spot OR Listen and Survival. These are two reflect the background from which he came. The guards usually know their city and have contacts within. Guards and sentries must be able to.. guard. And soldiers learn something of living of the land, maybe even become trackers. I do not think the above steal the thunder of the rogue or the ranger. Change one, do not like, the Fighter is the Fighter... if you want to give bonuses to his saves that's alright, but not another good save per se. Change two: excelent... agree. Change three: I would just give him Spot and Survival, to be a good Sentry/Guard and/or Foot Soldier, besides fighting is a very visual activity, i give Spot as a class skill to fighters every game i DM.
Seerow 12-18-06, 12:39 PM	Or you could, y'know look at the Fighter Discussion Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493) where we've been doing this for months. Just sayin'
Druid_of_the_storm 12-18-06, 12:49 PM	most players suck at the fighter because they don't know how to play one....it's fine So for the love of Nerull....stop making fighter threads
Seerow 12-18-06, 12:54 PM	most players suck at the fighter because they don't know how to play one....it's fine So for the love of Nerull....stop making fighter threads Most players suck at outdoing the Fighter with a druid because they don't know how to play one... it's fine. So for the love of all that is good... stop posting useless tripe like this in a would-be productive thread.
Ghenesh 12-18-06, 12:54 PM	Or you could, y'know look at the Fighter Discussion Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728493) where we've been doing this for months. Just sayin' Said topic has a totally diferent proposal than this one, posting his variant there wouldn't have accomplished the OP's purpose. On the other hand a "Fighter Fixes Compendium" would be nice.
Seerow 12-18-06, 12:58 PM	Said topic has a totally diferent proposal than this one, posting his variant there wouldn't have accomplished the OP's purpose. The OPs purpose was as follows: - The fighter's flavor must be preserved. That means it must also be somewhat defined first. - The fighter must not step into other classes' toes. It must be a class with something unique to play - I do not believe that I am more capable than the designers of WoC. Thus, I will try to incorporate elements already existing, if at all possible. All of these, except perhaps the last, are met with the fix I linked to. CHANGE ONE: The fighter gets TWO good saves, to be chosen by the player in first level. Instead the Fighter is given a medium reflex and medium will save. CHANGE TWO: The levels the fighter does not get a feat, he should get an ability. This is taken care of, with the Fighter gaining an ability at all dead levels. CHANGE THREE: The fighter must get something skill wise. His list broadens to include Gather information, Spot OR Listen and Survival. These are two reflect the background from which he came. The guards usually know their city and have contacts within. Guards and sentries must be able to.. guard. And soldiers learn something of living of the land, maybe even become trackers. I do not think the above steal the thunder of the rogue or the ranger. Also taken care of in the variant linked to. So no, the variant there isn't different from what's being proposed here. It's simply more thought out, and an overall better answer.
Ghenesh 12-18-06, 01:11 PM	Well, the OP obviously don't want another variant, he wants feedback for his own. It's ok to propose to him to take a look at your stuff, it might help him to get ideas, but it wasn't cool the way you did it. And by the way many of us do not like stance/maneuver fixes for the Fighter, apparently the OP thinks alike.
Seerow 12-18-06, 01:19 PM	Well, the OP obviously don't want another variant, he wants feedback for his own. And his variant is redoing what has already been done and discussed to death, and hell, half of his new Unique Abilities don't even appear to have descriptions, instead referring directly back to Tome of Battle to see the Warblade. At least the variant provided doesn't -require- Tome of Battle to use. It's ok to propose to him to take a look at your stuff, it might help him to get ideas, but it wasn't cool the way you did it. When the variants are basically proposing the same thing to be done, why -not- direct to a topic where it's already been going on for months, rather than have the same thing be done twice? And by the way many of us do not like stance/maneuver fixes for the Fighter, apparently the OP thinks alike. There are no maneuvers in that variant, and the stances are mostly drawn from unique stances that were made -specifically for the Fighter- only using the mechanic of stances (That is only having one of them active) and the option of being able to draw from ToB (using half your level) if you want to. Also compare this to taking abilities directly from the Warblade, sure not the Stances or Maneuvers, but it does in fact take the other abilities verbatim from the Warblade, meaning it requires Tome of Battle more than the Fighter Discussion fix does.
Belgian Waffle 12-18-06, 01:29 PM	My only beef with this is that it'd make the fighter even more of a dip class than before. Think about it. Two good saves of your choice? That's money right there. And then no dead levels if you grab a four level dip. Battle Ardor might not even be useful for you, but you never know.
benstundze 12-18-06, 02:35 PM	Id have to say no class is underpowered if you know how to play it. Now to the subject: if you think the fighter is underpowered just create a skill that only he can use that would be more then enough to fix it. Marry xmas Ben
ambu 12-18-06, 03:03 PM	Thanks to all about the many answers. I feel I have to address some specifically, though. Seerio, thanks for taking the time. I know there are several fighter threads, including many long ones. However, experience has taught me that jumping in the middle of a 20 pages long discussion, usually involving five to six people arguing and/or debating an issue does not usually yield an answer. If you think that my answer here is somewhat unoriginal thanks for the comment, but you must understand that it is an ongoing process. I have read many 20 pages long threads and just can't keep up with all of them. I will try again the linked thread. Robby and Howland, I had not considered the level dip for the good saves. Also, the medium save was I believe proposed by Monte Cook and I was not sure if that is acceptable here. Well, I would argue that OK, the fighter gets only one Good save and one medium, but he CHOOSES which is which. That reflect the various ways he has been trained. It also helps get away from the "Will-save-spell-against the fighter" method. I see no comments about the skill thing I proposed. Noone things it a good, bad or mediocre idea? As for the warblade ripoff. Well, the whole "battle" abilities were in my mind what the fighter should get from the beggining. Abilities that make him more versatile and specialized in his combat. Why does the Warblade gets them and not the fighter? Keep in mind that I do not want the fighter to have the oriental Chi based abilities. Why would the grizzled soldier know how to summon a walll of fire? These abilities I took because I think them unimportant for the warblade but important for the fighter. Finaly, the empty levels. Frankly, I was afraid I was making the fighter too powerful (hey don't laugh!) and so I took it slow. I believe that the armor mastery and DR bypassing are good ideas to go by. So, let's get on with the linked thread reading....
OneWinged4ngel 12-18-06, 05:20 PM	I am a long time lurker in several forums of D20. In almost all of them, most players regard the fighter class as underpowered, compared to most other standard classes. I belong to the camp that says that you should play a class because it fits the concept you have in mind, not because it can beat another class in an arena match. And yet, who on the other side has said you shouldn't? You can think the Fighter is underpowered and still ick him because it fits your concept. I know I have. (/nitpick) And this redux is mediocre (at best) on several levels. Previous posters have basically covered why. Bad execution, lack of anything interesting, still dead levels, worse than the warblade (and kinda ripped off anyways), bad formatting (serious, that cramped blob under "class features" isn't doing anyone any favors), and so forth. I agree with Seerow, energy should be devoted to fixes with some real thought and decent design effort put into it.
clannagh 12-18-06, 06:04 PM	Maybe we should just drop fighter as a class if everyone thinks its so underpowered. Afterall in real life there was no such thing as a "fighter" anyway. People were swordsman or cavaliers or archers not "fighters".
benstundze 12-18-06, 06:09 PM	Maybe we should just drop fighter as a class if everyone thinks its so underpowered. Afterall in real life there was no such thing as a "fighter" anyway. People were swordsman or cavaliers or archers not "fighters". No the fighter was created to fill those roles and more through feats therefore the "swordsman or cavaliers" are fighters. Marry xmas ben
PoorHobo 12-18-06, 06:23 PM	Maybe we should just drop fighter as a class if everyone thinks its so underpowered. Afterall in real life there was no such thing as a "fighter" anyway. People were swordsman or cavaliers or archers not "fighters". In real life people didn't fight One eyed monsters that shoot beams, or dragons, or the lords of hell, or.....
OneWinged4ngel 12-18-06, 06:26 PM	Maybe we should just drop fighter as a class if everyone thinks its so underpowered. Afterall in real life there was no such thing as a "fighter" anyway. People were swordsman or cavaliers or archers not "fighters". No such thing as a Wizard who could stop time or anything like that either. Further, the Fighter class is supposed to be used to create the archetypes of the swordsman, cavelier, or archer. It just isn't that good at it.
Howland Reed 12-18-06, 09:35 PM	To be honest, I don't even mind the 2 good saves as much as I mind "choose 1 (or 2)". I just hate choosing saves, since NO OTHER class can choose saves. The whole point in a class system is certain fixed features...Saves, BAB, HD, Skill list. If you want a little more variety, multiclass. If you want a LOT more variety, just play generic classes (like the SRD's Warrior, Expert, and Spellcaster) or let everyone build a custom class. If your concern is the fighter's Will vulnerability, there are 3 fixes as I see it: 1.) Just give fighters a good Will save. Wow, now they have Fort/Will good...just like Clerics, Druids, Duskblades, Dragon Shamans, and about a zillion other classes/PrCs. 2.) Use feats...either the fighter's bonus feats, or additional free fixed-feats if you think they need the help. Iron Will is fine, but PHII added Combat Focus, Steadfast Determination, and Indomitable Soul, which all help immensely. 3.) Give them a unique class ability, like the barbarian's Rage bonus to Will saves, the paladin's Divine Grace, or the Warblade's Battle Clarity. Heck, you gave them enough of the Warblade's other features. :) Of the 3, I prefer the last. But rather than simply swipe the Warblade's, why not come up with a unique Fighter ability that gives them save boosts on their poor saves? As for your skill idea, I see it as a poor one (no offense) because it adds to the 1st level dip, and then does nothing to repair the main problem with the fighter's skill situation...poor out-of-combat utility. I see two possible fixes here: 1.) Increase the fighter's skill list and skill points. Seriously...giving melee experts 4 skpts and a better selection will not unbalance anything...ToB proved it. 2.) Give the fighter boosts on skills without more skpts. I've considered a class feature called something like "Man of War", which gives them a +4 bonus on any skill check, so long as it could be related to warfare...for instance, Kn:History when trying to remember an ancient battle, Kn:Engineering when referring to siege warfare, or Kn:Nobility when trying to find out info on a famous knight/general. As far as the warblade similarity... First, you have the same misconception I did at first. Warblades can't summon walls of fire (that's Desert Wind) or teleport around (that's Shadow Hand)...those things are the province of the Swordsage. Warblade's maneuver really are mostly skill based enhancements, rather than supernatural things. Second, I agree totally that the Warblade is chock-full of good combat skill-based special abilities. I just disagree that we should give them 'in toto' to the fighter, especially when it just reduces the fighter to a variant warblade, with feats instead of maneuvers. Instead, I suggest giving the fighter their OWN class features that enhance their combat abilities, in a similar but different way. My link had some suggestions...here are some general ones. --Dodge bonuses in certain situations, or when wielding certain weapons. --Increased bonuses from fighter feats...for instance, Improved Trip and Improved Sunder can be used by anyone, but perhaps a fighter gets even MORE benefit out of them. In my mind, Two-wep fighting especially needs a boost (though PHII helped), considering it's power relative to two-handed fighting. --If you increase their skills, let them use their skills to increase their combat abilities (through skill checks). ToB did this with some maneuvers, and I think I saw something similar when thumbing through Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. Things like that. If you want to know if they're balanced, post 'em and I (and others, hopefully) will give our impressions. As far as dead levels...this was one of my biggest gripes with the fighter, as they have the most dead levels of anyone (and no, the cleric's levels are NOT dead...they get new spells, both quality and quantity). Your solution helps, and that's good. I had no issue with that. Seerow...I'm with Ambu on this one. Your thread is great, don't get me wrong...but I think we're both looking for a patch, rather than a re-write. I think you've already taken it for granted that a patch simply won't do. We can agree to disagree. And I think Ambu's right that jumping into a big ol' thread is often asking to be overlooked by the principals. Not saying you would, but sometimes it's best to just start fresh. And yeah, I agree about the thread-link consolidation. Maybe I'll do that if I can find time.
ambu 12-25-06, 12:12 PM	After checking many threads on the fighter I submit my final proposal. Many of the ideas presented below are taken from the Fighter discussion thread that is currently active and from the work and ideas of Seerow. FINAL CUT FIGHTER Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d10. Saves: Fort good, reflex and will medium Class Skills The fighter’s class skills are Climb, Craft, Gather information,Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride, Swim, Spot, Survival Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Fighter Level Special 1st Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude 2nd Bonus feat 3rd Learning ease, Height of battle 1/day 4th Weapon specialization 5th Bonus feat 6th Bonus feat 7th Armor specialization 8th Bonus feat, Height of battle 2/day 9th Take the high ground 10th Bonus feat 11th Armored mobility 12th Greater weapon specialization 13th Bonus feat,Height of battle 3/day 14th Bonus feat 15th Greater armor specialization 16th Bonus feat 17th Learning mastery 18th Bonus feat,Height of battle 4/day 19th Greater learning mastery 20th Bonus feat Class Features All of the following are class features of the fighter. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields). Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats. Weapon aptitude: As the warblade. Learning ease: The fighter can add half his fighter level, rounded up, into any of his stats in order to qualify for any feat that has attribute requirements. Height of battle: When not flatfooted, the fighter can substitute his TOTAL save modifier with another save. This ability works 1 battle+ 1 per 5 additional levels. Weapon specialization: The fighter gets the benefit of weapon specialization for any weapon he has weapon focus. Armor specialization: The fighter chooses an armor or shield category. He gets +1 AC and -1 to armor check penalties when using these category of armor or shield. Take the higher ground: The opponents of the fighter do not gain a bonus from fighting from higher ground or from fighting mounted unless they have this ability themselves. Armored mobility: The fighter no longer suffers any reduction to his speed due to his armor. Greater Weapon specialization: The fighter gets the benefit of greater weapon specialization for any weapon he has weapon focus and greater weapon focus. Greater armor specialization: The fighter's AC bonus with his chosen armor or shield category becomes +2 and his armor check penalties become -2. Learning mastery: Once per day, as a standard action, the fighter can designate a number of feats equal to his level/3 and swap them with other feats of equal power. Equal power feats are considered feats that have equal or lower skill rank and BAB requirements with those swapped. A fighter must meet all requirements of the feats he chooses, even of the requirements are fulfilled by swapped feats. The fighter must have witnessed the effects of the swapped feats in action. This effect lasts for a number of consecutive battles up to (fighter levels)/4 each day. Greater learning mastery: The effects of learning mastery do not need to be applied to consecutive battles in a given day.
ambu 12-25-06, 07:20 PM	Noone has anything to add? Come on help me out!:)