About the monk. [Archive] - Wizards Community

About the monk. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Liquid_Technique
03-10-08, 06:05 PM My DM said that he will not allow Monster PC's or classes with transformational aspects (Monk, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, etc.).

Now I have never seen anyone play a monk and have never played one myself which leads to my question. When it comes to Monk what does my DM mean? Is Monk a class with transformational aspects? If so what are these "aspects"?

Thanks in advance,

LQT
rjsilverthorn
03-10-08, 06:12 PM A monk changes type at level 20.

Perfect Self
At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.
Liquid_Technique
03-10-08, 06:19 PM Thanks for quick reply :D

I suppose my DM should allow it with that 20th level type change removed.
Mad_Jack
03-10-08, 06:20 PM Still, a monk doesn't change type til 20th level... That's hardly likely to come into play unless you're running a very high-level campaign...
rjsilverthorn
03-10-08, 06:56 PM Well a lot of people will tell you that you shouldn't take that many levels of monk anyway. (Actually, a lot of people will tell you not to take ANY levels of monk.)
Orenmir
03-10-08, 07:01 PM My DM said that he will not allow Monster PC's or classes with transformational aspects (Monk, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, etc.).

Did he explain WHY he won't allow the transformational classes? I'm curious what he thinks is unbalanced or afraid of. A DM to not allow a core class sounds drastic (especially one that's on the weak side of the power scale), IMO -- he must have a good reason.
dman11235
03-10-08, 09:12 PM Not true rj, I suggest at least two levels of monk (but for the sake of all that is good and holy not more than 11, try to keep it down to 6 or lower if you really want that 6th level bonus feat) for the best unarmed combat builds. They involve lotsa PrCs and/or multiclassing. It's possible to get a really high AC if you take Fist of the Forest, and that comes with really high unarmed damage (if you do it right, at level 20: 16d8, 32d8 if you can get Greater Mighty Whallop to count as colossal).

And I agree with Orenmir. The DD is a pretty weak class, and so is the monk if taken to 20, and same with Elemental Savant (those lost CLs and the restriction to a single energy is painful).
rjsilverthorn
03-10-08, 09:50 PM Not true rj, I suggest at least two levels of monk (but for the sake of all that is good and holy not more than 11, try to keep it down to 6 or lower if you really want that 6th level bonus feat) for the best unarmed combat builds. They involve lotsa PrCs and/or multiclassing. It's possible to get a really high AC if you take Fist of the Forest, and that comes with really high unarmed damage (if you do it right, at level 20: 16d8, 32d8 if you can get Greater Mighty Whallop to count as colossal).

And I agree with Orenmir. The DD is a pretty weak class, and so is the monk if taken to 20, and same with Elemental Savant (those lost CLs and the restriction to a single energy is painful).

Well I know you do but, like me, you actually like the monk. Not everyone looks so favorably upon them, and even you advocate taking a minimal number of actual monk levels.
dman11235
03-10-08, 10:01 PM That's because it is an example of poor class design. After level 6 there really isn't much reason other than Greater Flurry (do you REALLY want it?) to take the class, and not many of the abilities mesh well at all. Speed and mobility lend to a skirmisher, but flurry lends to full attacks. Random defense things that don't mean much while giving a boost to damage. I love the idea, but the class lacks. Severely. That's why I prefer Witch's Martial Artist.
Liquid_Technique
03-10-08, 10:17 PM Nevermind.

My DM is a nice person but has apparently also lost it completely or just does not know better. I was just informed that my DM has completely banned use of monk core class no matter what. In fact while being at it he banned a lot of other things too including the whole ToB book. Apprently he thinks everything outside core classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) is overpowered.

Funny thing is that he allows use of SOME non core PrC's but there is no logic behind it. He just band and allows things randomly or so it seems. He is a nice person but... he needs a lesson so that he knows better what is overpowered and what is not.

so

.
.
.
.
.
.

Time to bring out the CoDzilla and totally dominate and WTFpwn our whole campaign. See you in CO board.:smirk:
dman11235
03-10-08, 10:20 PM But...buh...hubadahwah? He's banning the monk....and not the druid....because the monk is over...powered....and the....druid...is..n....'.....t.......th ought proccesses stopped.
StruckingFuggle
03-10-08, 10:23 PM Good god.

As a player, I think I just revolted.
As a bit of a gearhead (dicehead), I think my brain just shut down.
And as a DM, I just went "...bwuh"?

No part of my dnd brain has not just had a big monkey wrench thrown into it.
dman11235
03-10-08, 10:31 PM Show him the list of classes by power ranking. It's in the CharOp boards.

And yeah, in order to get the monk up to power with the other melee classes (and slightly above) I had to use FotF and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries to get the damage I said earlier. All the other really powerful monks I've made have been multi-classed: monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist/abjurant champion and monk/barbarian/FotF/Bearwarrior/Warshaper/PrC x that grants Mettle.
rjsilverthorn
03-10-08, 10:41 PM But...buh...hubadahwah? He's banning the monk....and not the druid....because the monk is over...powered....and the....druid...is..n....'.....t.......th ought proccesses stopped.

Some DMs just seem to have a thing about the monk. I think its kind of like the gut reaction some people have when they first see the warlock.
StruckingFuggle
03-10-08, 10:42 PM And yeah, in order to get the monk up to power with the other melee classes (and slightly above) I had to use FotF and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries to get the damage I said earlier. All the other really powerful monks I've made have been multi-classed: monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist/abjurant champion and monk/barbarian/FotF/Bearwarrior/Warshaper/PrC x that grants Mettle.

Hmm ... Out of curiosity, how much unarmed damage do you think the base monk monk should be doing to be 'competitive' with its damage?

What if they could enchant their unarmed strike like a normal magic weapon?
runestar
03-10-08, 10:46 PM Apprently he thinks everything outside core classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) is overpowered.

It is his funeral then, considering that cleric20, wizard20 and druid20 are currently the top contenders...;)
dman11235
03-10-08, 10:52 PM They can enchant their USs as normal weapon: Necklace of Natural Attacks.

At least 6d8. That's the low end. That's the end of "oh, I have a different shtick". If focused on unarmed strike damage, probably 12d8 (two steps up) on the low end, 32d8 at the peak (lotsa conditions to meet to get that damage). With the lower BAB, no synergy with combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, grapple) they need to make each hit COUNT. If there was a way to synergize those things, then a lower damage would suffice.

Also, I am basing this on not having a different stat to damage (other than strength) and focusing on dexterity, wis, and con. Barbarians will be getting +lots damage from strength, and martial adepts will be doing their thing, this style of monk relies on damage dice to deal decent damage. 12d8 is only an average of 54, and the barbarian will be doing that reasonably often. 32d8 gets them their high damage shtick at an average of 146. Yeah, that's a lot.

EDIT: I feel I should put in that the high damage shtick can be covered with the addition of a level of Shiba Protector (wis to attack and damage: in addition to strength) and 4d8 (level 20+INA), or higher. Also, without that PrC, 16d8 should cover it at an average of 72.
StruckingFuggle
03-10-08, 11:24 PM At what level? Is that "by level 20", or "early on"?
dman11235
03-10-08, 11:34 PM That's 20. At level 12, I'm thinking a good 2d10 by then would be nice, 4d8 for damage focused. Probably off though, my mind doesn't work well at those levels.

Going through the math, at 12, having 2d6 upped twice through PrCs and then a third time through INA makes it 6d6, and that seems about right, if not another bump (from IoDM) makes it 8d6. That's an average of 21 or 28. At level 4, just the 1d8 is all you really can have without flaws, or without rediculous wealth. At level 7 you hit it off with two levels of IoDM, making it 2d6, and you might have SUS to get it to 2d8. It sort of goes up exponentially from there to a limit of 16d8 at level 20 with 7 actual monk levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Liquid_Technique 03-10-08, 06:05 PM	My DM said that he will not allow Monster PC's or classes with transformational aspects (Monk, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, etc.). Now I have never seen anyone play a monk and have never played one myself which leads to my question. When it comes to Monk what does my DM mean? Is Monk a class with transformational aspects? If so what are these "aspects"? Thanks in advance, LQT
rjsilverthorn 03-10-08, 06:12 PM	A monk changes type at level 20. Perfect Self At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.
Liquid_Technique 03-10-08, 06:19 PM	Thanks for quick reply :D I suppose my DM should allow it with that 20th level type change removed.
Mad_Jack 03-10-08, 06:20 PM	Still, a monk doesn't change type til 20th level... That's hardly likely to come into play unless you're running a very high-level campaign...
rjsilverthorn 03-10-08, 06:56 PM	Well a lot of people will tell you that you shouldn't take that many levels of monk anyway. (Actually, a lot of people will tell you not to take ANY levels of monk.)
Orenmir 03-10-08, 07:01 PM	My DM said that he will not allow Monster PC's or classes with transformational aspects (Monk, Dragon Disciple, Elemental Savant, etc.). Did he explain WHY he won't allow the transformational classes? I'm curious what he thinks is unbalanced or afraid of. A DM to not allow a core class sounds drastic (especially one that's on the weak side of the power scale), IMO -- he must have a good reason.
dman11235 03-10-08, 09:12 PM	Not true rj, I suggest at least two levels of monk (but for the sake of all that is good and holy not more than 11, try to keep it down to 6 or lower if you really want that 6th level bonus feat) for the best unarmed combat builds. They involve lotsa PrCs and/or multiclassing. It's possible to get a really high AC if you take Fist of the Forest, and that comes with really high unarmed damage (if you do it right, at level 20: 16d8, 32d8 if you can get Greater Mighty Whallop to count as colossal). And I agree with Orenmir. The DD is a pretty weak class, and so is the monk if taken to 20, and same with Elemental Savant (those lost CLs and the restriction to a single energy is painful).
rjsilverthorn 03-10-08, 09:50 PM	Not true rj, I suggest at least two levels of monk (but for the sake of all that is good and holy not more than 11, try to keep it down to 6 or lower if you really want that 6th level bonus feat) for the best unarmed combat builds. They involve lotsa PrCs and/or multiclassing. It's possible to get a really high AC if you take Fist of the Forest, and that comes with really high unarmed damage (if you do it right, at level 20: 16d8, 32d8 if you can get Greater Mighty Whallop to count as colossal). And I agree with Orenmir. The DD is a pretty weak class, and so is the monk if taken to 20, and same with Elemental Savant (those lost CLs and the restriction to a single energy is painful). Well I know you do but, like me, you actually like the monk. Not everyone looks so favorably upon them, and even you advocate taking a minimal number of actual monk levels.
dman11235 03-10-08, 10:01 PM	That's because it is an example of poor class design. After level 6 there really isn't much reason other than Greater Flurry (do you REALLY want it?) to take the class, and not many of the abilities mesh well at all. Speed and mobility lend to a skirmisher, but flurry lends to full attacks. Random defense things that don't mean much while giving a boost to damage. I love the idea, but the class lacks. Severely. That's why I prefer Witch's Martial Artist.
Liquid_Technique 03-10-08, 10:17 PM	Nevermind. My DM is a nice person but has apparently also lost it completely or just does not know better. I was just informed that my DM has completely banned use of monk core class no matter what. In fact while being at it he banned a lot of other things too including the whole ToB book. Apprently he thinks everything outside core classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) is overpowered. Funny thing is that he allows use of SOME non core PrC's but there is no logic behind it. He just band and allows things randomly or so it seems. He is a nice person but... he needs a lesson so that he knows better what is overpowered and what is not. so . . . . . . Time to bring out the CoDzilla and totally dominate and WTFpwn our whole campaign. See you in CO board.:smirk:
dman11235 03-10-08, 10:20 PM	But...buh...hubadahwah? He's banning the monk....and not the druid....because the monk is over...powered....and the....druid...is..n....'.....t.......th ought proccesses stopped.
StruckingFuggle 03-10-08, 10:23 PM	Good god. As a player, I think I just revolted. As a bit of a gearhead (dicehead), I think my brain just shut down. And as a DM, I just went "...bwuh"? No part of my dnd brain has not just had a big monkey wrench thrown into it.
dman11235 03-10-08, 10:31 PM	Show him the list of classes by power ranking. It's in the CharOp boards. And yeah, in order to get the monk up to power with the other melee classes (and slightly above) I had to use FotF and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries to get the damage I said earlier. All the other really powerful monks I've made have been multi-classed: monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist/abjurant champion and monk/barbarian/FotF/Bearwarrior/Warshaper/PrC x that grants Mettle.
rjsilverthorn 03-10-08, 10:41 PM	But...buh...hubadahwah? He's banning the monk....and not the druid....because the monk is over...powered....and the....druid...is..n....'.....t.......th ought proccesses stopped. Some DMs just seem to have a thing about the monk. I think its kind of like the gut reaction some people have when they first see the warlock.
StruckingFuggle 03-10-08, 10:42 PM	And yeah, in order to get the monk up to power with the other melee classes (and slightly above) I had to use FotF and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries to get the damage I said earlier. All the other really powerful monks I've made have been multi-classed: monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist/abjurant champion and monk/barbarian/FotF/Bearwarrior/Warshaper/PrC x that grants Mettle. Hmm ... Out of curiosity, how much unarmed damage do you think the base monk monk should be doing to be 'competitive' with its damage? What if they could enchant their unarmed strike like a normal magic weapon?
runestar 03-10-08, 10:46 PM	Apprently he thinks everything outside core classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) is overpowered. It is his funeral then, considering that cleric20, wizard20 and druid20 are currently the top contenders...;)
dman11235 03-10-08, 10:52 PM	They can enchant their USs as normal weapon: Necklace of Natural Attacks. At least 6d8. That's the low end. That's the end of "oh, I have a different shtick". If focused on unarmed strike damage, probably 12d8 (two steps up) on the low end, 32d8 at the peak (lotsa conditions to meet to get that damage). With the lower BAB, no synergy with combat maneuvers (trip, disarm, grapple) they need to make each hit COUNT. If there was a way to synergize those things, then a lower damage would suffice. Also, I am basing this on not having a different stat to damage (other than strength) and focusing on dexterity, wis, and con. Barbarians will be getting +lots damage from strength, and martial adepts will be doing their thing, this style of monk relies on damage dice to deal decent damage. 12d8 is only an average of 54, and the barbarian will be doing that reasonably often. 32d8 gets them their high damage shtick at an average of 146. Yeah, that's a lot. EDIT: I feel I should put in that the high damage shtick can be covered with the addition of a level of Shiba Protector (wis to attack and damage: in addition to strength) and 4d8 (level 20+INA), or higher. Also, without that PrC, 16d8 should cover it at an average of 72.
StruckingFuggle 03-10-08, 11:24 PM	At what level? Is that "by level 20", or "early on"?
dman11235 03-10-08, 11:34 PM	That's 20. At level 12, I'm thinking a good 2d10 by then would be nice, 4d8 for damage focused. Probably off though, my mind doesn't work well at those levels. Going through the math, at 12, having 2d6 upped twice through PrCs and then a third time through INA makes it 6d6, and that seems about right, if not another bump (from IoDM) makes it 8d6. That's an average of 21 or 28. At level 4, just the 1d8 is all you really can have without flaws, or without rediculous wealth. At level 7 you hit it off with two levels of IoDM, making it 2d6, and you might have SUS to get it to 2d8. It sort of goes up exponentially from there to a limit of 16d8 at level 20 with 7 actual monk levels.