Post/Author/DateTime	Post
plaguewraith 04-12-08, 07:02 PM	I came up with a realy different idea recently, it's essentially a sorcerer variant with some alternative class features added in, they are listed below. Favored Metamagic Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer chooses a metamagic feat, that metamagic feat becomes his favored metamagic feat. This reduces the level adjustment of the metamagic feat by 1 (to a minimum level adjustment of +1). Note: He need not have the feat to select it. Metamagic Reduction Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known of the highest spell level he can cast. Benefits: As a swift action, the sorcerer can reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one (to a minimum of a +1 level adjustment). He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int mod. He can only use this ability once per round. Sorcererous Protégé Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell per day from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer adds one extra spell known to each spell level he can cast. The sorcerer also gains spell levels one level earlier than normal (2nd level spell at 3rd level, 3rd level spells at 5th level, ect.), although he only gains one spell known at such levels then gains extra spells as normal. Arcane Dilettante Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit requires the sorcerer to choose a school of magic, this school becomes a prohibited school for him. Benefits: The sorcerer can choose spells from the cleric and druid spell list in addition to spells from the sorcerer spell list for his spells known. He can only have a number of cleric or druid spells equal to half his sorcerer level rounded down (min 1). Sorcerer Variant: Academic Sorcerer Hit Die: d4 Base Atk: As a normal sorcerer Saves: As a normal sorcerer Class Skills: Add any 2 Knowledge skills Class Features: Wpn/Arm Prof: As a wizard Spells: An academic sorcerer loses one spell known from each spell level he can cast. Bonus feats: A metamagic sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic, heritage, or reserve feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Familiar: As a normal sorcerer Also use the Metamagic specialist variant from the PH2 I also found these feats online that looked pretty good for this idea Spell Affinity Prerequisites: Int 13, Ability to cast spells spontaneously, must have a Spells Known list (forgot to type this part down) Benefit: You gain bonus spells based on your Int modifier. These spells are added to your number of spells known; this feat does not increase the number of spells that you can cast per day. If you think this combination is over powered please tell me. Any CONSTRUCTIVE information would be nice for this idea. don't rant on how you think this would be over powered but on how to make it balanced instead.
teshen 04-13-08, 12:47 AM	I came up with a realy different idea recently, it's essentially a sorcerer variant with some alternative class features added in, they are listed below. Favored Metamagic Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces Benefits: The sorcerer chooses a metamagic feat, that metamagic feat becomes his favored metamagic feat. This reduces the level adjustment of the metamagic feat by 1 (to a minimum level adjustment of +0). He need not have the feat to select it.Still spell. Ignore ASF at first level... if the thing you give up is your familiar. It may be too good... and I'm thinking you might have used DMM as the inspiration for this one? Metamagic Reduction Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known of the highest spell level he can cast. Benefits: As a swift action, the sorcerer can reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one (to a minimum of a +1 level adjustment). He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int mod. He can only use this ability once per round. Since he's using his full round to apply the metamagic and the swift to lower the adjustment, it doesn't really cost him too much until he picks up the ability to quicken spells. Then it's a balancing act between -1 level to a spell or two spells. I'd say it's fine... actually it's pretty good. Sorcererous Protégé Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell per day from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer adds one extra spell known to each spell level he can cast. The sorcerer also gains spell levels one level earlier than normal (2nd level spell at 3rd level, 3rd level spells at 5th level, ect.).So specialist wizard number of spells at the same levels. Maybe. I'm not really sure... but if you are using focused specialist as your point of balance... then it plays similarly. Arcane Dilettante Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit requires the sorcerer to choose a school of magic, this school becomes a prohibited school for him. Benefits: The sorcerer can choose spells from the cleric and druid spell list in addition to spells from the sorcerer spell list for his spells known.I'm going to go with no on this one. Giving up one school which a sorcerer could do without does not balance it against giving it access to many other divine options. However, I'd probably say it's fine to let the sorcerer pick cleric or druid and let them learn any spell at one level higher whenever they learn a new spell known without forcing the specialization. I'd probably put another stipulation like no more divine spells on your list than your sorcerer level... so a 3rd level sorcerer could have three druid or cleric 0 level spells cast as first level spells... I'd also add one or two class skills like knowledge (nature) and survival to the druid sorcerer and knowledge (religion) and... something to the clerical sorcerer. Actually, isn't there something out of complete divine that does something like that? Sorcerer Variant: Academic Sorcerer Hit Die: d4 Base Atk: As a normal sorcerer Saves: As a normal sorcerer Class Skills: Add all Knowledge skills Class Features: Wpn/Arm Prof: As a wizard Spells: A metamagic sorcerer must select a school of magic to be his prohibited school of magic. He loses the option of selecting spells from that school for spells known. He cannot select divination as his prohibited school. Bonus feats: A metamagic sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic, item creation, Heritage, or reserve feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Familiar: As a normal sorcererSo basically one or two extra feats (PrCs) and knowledge skills for losing access to a school of magic he can do without, such as evocation? I'd say it's a little too strong. I don't mind it, and I think it could work as is, but if sorcerer is your balance point, this variant gives more than it takes. I might suggest breaking it into two different variants. Upping the skill points to 4 + int and add any two knowledge skills as class skills to the sorcerer's skill list at the cost of a familiar for one variant, and add the feats for one less spell known of the next highest spell level you can cast... so that fifth level you'd get one less first level spell known, at tenth level you'd get one less third level spell known, at fifteenth level you'd get one less sixth level spell known , and at twenteeth level you'd get one less eighth level spell known... ok, so it's not a smooth progression, but who's going to stick with sorcerer 20 anyway? I also found these feats online that looked pretty good for this idea Spell Affinity Prerequisites: Int 13, Ability to cast spells spontaneously Benefit: You gain bonus spells based on your Int modifier. These spells are added to your number of spells known; this feat does not increase the number of spells that you can cast per day. Armored Caster Prerequisites: Armor proficiency, Dex 13 Benefit: You can reduce your chance of arcane spell failure of armor your proficient with by 10%. Special: You may take this feat multiple times, each time gaining an additional 10% reduction.Actually, spell affinity coupled with metamagic specialist would be kind of nifty... but with a little MAD. As far as armored caster goes, I think it's weak. Most of the sorcerer specialists (beguiler, warmage, dread necro) as well as the battle sorcerer variant have ignore ASF in light armor, and that gets even more useful once you have the money for that mythril breastplate. To make this feat worthwhile, just make it ignore ASF in light armor, either that or make it scale with levels... although it'd be cutting into prc territory.
plaguewraith 04-13-08, 08:20 AM	as i said, i found the feats Anyways i see what you mean for the variant options ill adjust them a bit the inspiration came from a class i made when i was 12 that concentrated on metamagic casting, much like the incantrix Also, what the hell is DMM
plaguewraith 04-13-08, 07:22 PM	:bump: Id also like this class P.E.A.C.H.ed if you will
plaguewraith 04-16-08, 08:40 PM	:bump:
teshen 04-17-08, 01:44 AM	as i said, i found the feats . . . Also, what the hell is DMMWell, you threw the feats out there because you were considering using them and I gave you comments on them. DMM is short for divine metamagic. It's a feat from Complete Divine that allows you to metamagic spells by sacrificing turn undead attempts. There are no prerequisites for the feat other than turn/rebuke undead so a divine caster need not actually have the metamagic feat to burn turn undead attempts to metamagic a spell. Favored Metamagic Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known of the highest level spell he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer chooses a metamagic feat, that metamagic feat becomes his favored metamagic feat. This reduces the level adjustment of the metamagic feat by 1 (to a minimum level adjustment of +1). Note: He need not have the feat to select it.So the one less spell known migrates up as you gain levels and he can select a feat he doesn't have so that it's not a useful feature until the sorcerer actually gets the metamagic feat... Metamagic Reduction Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known of the highest spell level he can cast. Benefits: As a swift action, the sorcerer can reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one (to a minimum of a +1 level adjustment). He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int mod. He can only use this ability once per round.I'm not really a fan of attribute mod times per day abilities since they don't scale as smoothly as x per y levels type stuff... such as a sorcerer can use this ability to a number of times per day equal to 3 plus 1 per three caster levels he possesses. Although you could abuse that as well by cranking caster levels... I think unless he has ways to get multiple swift/immediate actions, he'll still only be able to use this ability once per round. Sorcererous Protégé Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell per day from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer adds one extra spell known to each spell level he can cast. The sorcerer also gains spell levels one level earlier than normal (2nd level spell at 3rd level, 3rd level spells at 5th level, ect.), although he only gains one spell known at such levels then gains extra spells as normal.Nifty. Arcane Dilettante Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit requires the sorcerer to choose a school of magic, this school becomes a prohibited school for him. Benefits: The sorcerer can choose spells from the cleric and druid spell list in addition to spells from the sorcerer spell list for his spells known. He can only have a number of cleric or druid spells equal to half his sorcerer level rounded down (min 1).I'm thinking that this is still a little powerful... but ok. Sorcerer Variant: Academic Sorcerer Hit Die: d4 Base Atk: As a normal sorcerer Saves: As a normal sorcerer Class Skills: Add any 2 Knowledge skills Class Features: Wpn/Arm Prof: As a wizard Spells: A metamagic sorcerer must select one school of magic to be his prohibited school of magic. He loses the option of selecting spells from that school for spells known. He cannot select divination as his prohibited school. Bonus feats: A metamagic sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic, item creation, heritage, or reserve feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Familiar: As a normal sorcererI'll repeat my earlier criticism. I don't think that losing access to one school of magic is that big an issue for a character who already has to manage his spell selection. A sorcerer could dump evocation or necromancy and not miss a thing. In fact, there are a sorcerer or two that I've looked at that never had one or two schools in their spells known list. I would also say that metamagic feats, heritage feats, and reserve feats make sense for a sorcerer... but not so much with item creation feats. As I said before, I think the spell affinity feat was kind of cool. If I had to make a version of the armored caster feat... I'd probably do something like this... Armored Caster Prerequisites: Light armor proficiency Benefit: You can reduce your chance of arcane spell failure with armor and shields which you are proficient with by 5% per 2 character levels.
StevenO 04-17-08, 02:08 PM	DMM is short for divine metamagic. It's a feat from Complete Divine that allows you to metamagic spells by sacrificing turn undead attempts. There are no prerequisites for the feat other than turn/rebuke undead so a divine caster need not actually have the metamagic feat to burn turn undead attempts to metamagic a spell. You actually DO need the metamagic feat you are applying DMM to, check the errata and FAQ. Without that additional requirement DMM is possibly the most broken feat available to divine spellcasters. A common used is with Persistant Spell to make short duration buffs last all day, without needing Persistant spell to take DMM (Persistent) the ability is broken but if Persistent (and its prereq Extend) are required to utilize the DMM it becomes a relatively balanced feat. As a whole I think your Sorcerer alternatives are too good. Favored MM and MM Reduction both hurt (by removing a single spell known) but quickly make up for that by making MM cheaper. Ok, you give up a 4th level spell known but now you can apply a +2 MM feat to a 3rd level spell at the cost of +1 thus you are effectively trading that "highest spell level known" for one of an even higher effective level. Sorcererous Protégé: OMG, you just eliminated the need for wizards. At least wizards without spellbooks far in excess of their "free" spells. In exchange for giving up one spell use per day you greatly expand the potential use for the remaining spell slots. Lets not overlook the pure power-up also gained half the time by having higher level spells than a sorcerer should have.
plaguewraith 04-17-08, 04:27 PM	So the one less spell known migrates up as you gain levels and he can select a feat he doesn't have so that it's not a useful feature until the sorcerer actually gets the metamagic feat... Yes I'm not really a fan of attribute mod times per day abilities since they don't scale as smoothly as x per y levels type stuff... such as a sorcerer can use this ability to a number of times per day equal to 3 plus 1 per three caster levels he possesses. Although you could abuse that as well by cranking caster levels... It's not supposed to scale, it's meant more for a number that rarely increases or decreases I think unless he has ways to get multiple swift/immediate actions, he'll still only be able to use this ability once per round. correct, this is a balancing point i added in to it Nifty. Thx, i designed it because im not a fan of wizards or of keeping spellbooks. Also i like the idea of a sorcerer that can cast more than normal without getting out of hand I'm thinking that this is still a little powerful... but ok. I just scaled it, besides the cap for going to 20th level is 10 spells that replace normal sorcerer spells I'll repeat my earlier criticism. I don't think that losing access to one school of magic is that big an issue for a character who already has to manage his spell selection. A sorcerer could dump evocation or necromancy and not miss a thing. In fact, there are a sorcerer or two that I've looked at that never had one or two schools in their spells known list. I know, but i couldn't think of anything else that wouldn't damper the abilities to much. i was thinking of decreasing spells known by one from each level but wasn't sure I would also say that metamagic feats, heritage feats, and reserve feats make sense for a sorcerer... but not so much with item creation feats.
plaguewraith 04-18-08, 09:04 PM	:bump:
StevenO 04-18-08, 09:41 PM	:bump: Check the CoC. You shouldn't bump your threads more that once every two days. Asking for praise or constructive criticism also doesn't help as it indicates you don't really want to hear about the alternative's problems.
teshen 04-18-08, 11:56 PM	You actually DO need the metamagic feat you are applying DMM to, check the errata and FAQ. Without that additional requirement DMM is possibly the most broken feat available to divine spellcasters. A common used is with Persistant Spell to make short duration buffs last all day, without needing Persistant spell to take DMM (Persistent) the ability is broken but if Persistent (and its prereq Extend) are required to utilize the DMM it becomes a relatively balanced feat.I first figured it required the feat for it to work until someone pointed out the RAW from complete divine. Even so it's not so bad with dispel magic and limited turning attempts... unless you factor in night sticks. So, as a houserule, I required more prerequisites for my games. I'm glad it was errata'd then. As a whole I think your Sorcerer alternatives are too good. Favored MM and MM Reduction both hurt (by removing a single spell known) but quickly make up for that by making MM cheaper. Ok, you give up a 4th level spell known but now you can apply a +2 MM feat to a 3rd level spell at the cost of +1 thus you are effectively trading that "highest spell level known" for one of an even higher effective level.On a typical sorcerer, he's behind a wizard anyway, and a wizard has a few more feats for metamagic and prc entry to get more faster. Against a wizard, I don't think it's any stronger... but I am comparing it against one of the strongest core classes as the balance point, so I might have a skewed view by comparing the arcane caster to the arcane caster... ;) Of course that doesn't help if I move my standard back and forth. I think you're right that these options are better than standard sorcerer, but I think they are still behind wizard. Sorcererous Protégé: OMG, you just eliminated the need for wizards. At least wizards without spellbooks far in excess of their "free" spells. In exchange for giving up one spell use per day you greatly expand the potential use for the remaining spell slots. Lets not overlook the pure power-up also gained half the time by having higher level spells than a sorcerer should have.Nope. Not in the least. If a sorcerer has one less spell per level he can cast and one more spell known per level and shift the progression one level up... he's casting as a specialist wizard, but without as many spells to pull from. It's good, and too good for what it give ups if you're comparing it to sorcerer... but not when comparing it to wizard. In fact, a few of the 'sorcerer fixes' do something like this. Check the CoC. You shouldn't bump your threads more that once every two days. Asking for praise or constructive criticism also doesn't help as it indicates you don't really want to hear about the alternative's problems.Agreed. Just be patient.
plaguewraith 04-21-08, 08:11 AM	:bump:
plaguewraith 04-24-08, 11:52 PM	:bump:
StevenO 04-25-08, 12:36 AM	ZZZZzzzzz........
JaronK 04-25-08, 01:39 AM	Okay, but I'm giving my honest opinion, and you can take it or leave it. I'm not just going to praise it. Favored Metamagic Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer chooses a metamagic feat, that metamagic feat becomes his favored metamagic feat. This reduces the level adjustment of the metamagic feat by 1 (to a minimum level adjustment of +1). Note: He need not have the feat to select it. Gah, this is begging for Shadowcraft Mage abuse. This applied to Heighten Spell plus Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell) plus Earth Spell means you could cast 9th level Shadow Conjurations with 7th level slots. See the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook for details as to how this might work. Haven't we got enough sneaky ways to reduce metamagic costs (and aren't they all broken?). Adding yet another just means you can stack even more craziness in here. Metamagic Reduction Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell known of the highest spell level he can cast. Benefits: As a swift action, the sorcerer can reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one (to a minimum of a +1 level adjustment). He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Int mod. He can only use this ability once per round. Which now makes it 3+Int mod times per day you could cast a 9th level spell in a 6th level slot. Consider also what happens if you use Residual Metamgaic with this feat. Yeah, these varients seem ripe for Shadowcraft Mage abuse, and they don't worry nearly as much about loss of spells known anyway. Sorcererous Protégé Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit replaces one spell per day from each spell level he can cast. Benefits: The sorcerer adds one extra spell known to each spell level he can cast. The sorcerer also gains spell levels one level earlier than normal (2nd level spell at 3rd level, 3rd level spells at 5th level, ect.), although he only gains one spell known at such levels then gains extra spells as normal. This is a bit more reasonable, as the sacrifice of one spell per day from every spell level is really painful. Some people might do it. That said, it would be strange to use this varient, as you're basically now just a Wizard with fewer spells known. Arcane Dilettante Class: Sorcerer Level: 1st Replaces: This benefit requires the sorcerer to choose a school of magic, this school becomes a prohibited school for him. Benefits: The sorcerer can choose spells from the cleric and druid spell list in addition to spells from the sorcerer spell list for his spells known. He can only have a number of cleric or druid spells equal to half his sorcerer level rounded down (min 1). I think this name has been used elsewhere with a different meaning in published material. The replacement costs basically nothing due to a Sorcerer's limited spells known, and adding the entire Cleric and Druid list adds so much more than you lost. Especially considering what your other varients do for Shadowcraft Mages... this would be even more obvious to take. Just ban Evocation, which you can cast as Shadow spells anyway, and you lose nothing to gain access to some very potent spells. There's also potencial for War Weaver abuse, as that class is only limited by the fact that arcane casters are so limited in what heals they can cast. Heck, I'm thinking something like Sorcerer 10/War Weaver 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 with your substitutions would be exceptionally strong... except I'd leave out Sorcererous Protégé, which doesn't seem very useful to me. All the others though? Absolutely. Sorcerer Variant: Academic Sorcerer Hit Die: d4 Base Atk: As a normal sorcerer Saves: As a normal sorcerer Class Skills: Add any 2 Knowledge skills Class Features: Wpn/Arm Prof: As a wizard Spells: An academic sorcerer loses one spell known from each spell level he can cast. Bonus feats: A metamagic sorcerer gains a bonus metamagic, heritage, or reserve feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Familiar: As a normal sorcerer So, what do you lose here? One spell known per level for a bunch of metamagic feats? It's a harsh trade, and most people don't actually take that many levels of Sorcerer. Could be very useful with the build given above though. Basically, you'd trade away so many spells known that all you'd use is Silent Image and a few Cleric/Druid buffs to cast into the weave. Would be strange but potent. If you think this combination is over powered please tell me. Any CONSTRUCTIVE information would be nice for this idea. don't rant on how you think this would be over powered but on how to make it balanced instead. Well, I'm not sure how to balance it, because what you're trying to add is so powerful when combined with certain PrCs (specifically War Weavers and Shadowcraft Mages). And after all, creating classes and varients without paying attention to what PrCs already exist is how broken things are most often generated. Also consider what Residual Metamagic can do with your metamagic reducers. JaronK