Access to Epic Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Access to Epic Feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tristandk@hotmail.com
04-03-04, 02:30 AM Hello,

I play a 4 level Spell Caster (Unearthed Arcana) / 10 level Shadow Adept / 10 level DeepDiviner.

I just gain a new level (I will be 25 level).

I will take a new level from the spell caster class. How does it work ? I will be 5 Spell Caster / 10 SA / 10 DD ?
Will I gain the 5 level feat associated with this class ?

If yes, can I choose an epic feat ?

Thanks for your help.

Tristan
Manic Man
04-03-04, 02:41 AM Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com
I will take a new level from the spell caster class. How does it work ? I will be 5 Spell Caster / 10 SA / 10 DD ?

Yes

Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com
Will I gain the 5 level feat associated with this class ?

Yes

Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com
If yes, can I choose an epic feat ?

No
tristandk@hotmail.com
04-03-04, 02:43 AM When do I access to an epic feat ?

Thanks
tristandk@hotmail.com
04-03-04, 02:56 AM I can read this in the DMG :
EPIC FEATS
The following feats are available only to epic characters. Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the standard list of feats or one of the feats described below.

So ? Why this 5th level SpellCaster feat couldn't be an Epic one ?

Thanks

Tristan
TheDarkestOfAngels
04-03-04, 03:08 AM you can only access epic feats when your character reaches 21st level and gets a feat according to their standard feat progression. (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and so forth).

You do NOT gain any epic bonus feats from a class until that class has surpassed 20th level or 10th level in the case of prestige classes, then you recieve an epic feat when the epic progression of that class indicates.
For instance, an epic assassin gets his or her first bonus epic feat at level 14.
Another example would be that sorcerers and wizards get thier first epic bonus feat at level 23, as stated in the 3.5 DMG.
Votan
04-03-04, 01:48 PM Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels
you can only access epic feats when your character reaches 21st level and gets a feat according to their standard feat progression. (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and so forth).

You do NOT gain any epic bonus feats from a class until that class has surpassed 20th level or 10th level in the case of prestige classes, then you recieve an epic feat when the epic progression of that class indicates.
For instance, an epic assassin gets his or her first bonus epic feat at level 14.
Another example would be that sorcerers and wizards get thier first epic bonus feat at level 23, as stated in the 3.5 DMG.

This is from the 3.5 Epic SRD:

Adding a Second Class
When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement [. . . .]. Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat [. . . .] When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class.

This seems to be clear. Of course it does lead to problems. A barbarian 20 who then goes fighter 20 has more epci feats then a fighter 40! :eek:

One may not like this rule (I don't, I can break it too darn easily and it leads to irrational advancement decisions) but it is pretty clear that this is the official interpretation.

(This is also reason 101 why pure class fighter is a bad idea -- fewer epic feats).
TheDarkestOfAngels
04-03-04, 02:50 PM Originally posted by Votan
This is from the 3.5 Epic SRD:

This seems to be clear. Of course it does lead to problems. A barbarian 20 who then goes fighter 20 has more epci feats then a fighter 40! :eek:
how could that possibly be true?
the ELH FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) states that a character cannot get an epic bonus feat unless the character has a character class that's over 20th level or a prestige class that's over 10th.
THe example used in the question/answer was a 17th level cleric/Fighter 3.
When the example rolls over to 21st level, he/she gains a feat as if the character were a fighter 4 and the feat has to be NON EPIC. The standard feat that a character gets at level 21 as per normal 1/3 feat progression of all characters, the character may select an epic feat for that in addition to the nonepic feat for the fighter class.
One may not like this rule (I don't, I can break it too darn easily and it leads to irrational advancement decisions) but it is pretty clear that this is the official interpretation.
The quote you pulled from the EPIC SRD was referring to the standard 1 feat/3 level allotment that all characters with HD gains.
They refer to those as character levels, as opposed to class levels or wizard/cleric/fighter levels.
(This is also reason 101 why pure class fighter is a bad idea -- fewer epic feats). Pure fighter is better than any other melee class. Its actually one of the strongest classes around. Certainly better than the paladin and on par with the barbarian, if not superior.
Votan
04-03-04, 03:18 PM Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels
how could that possibly be true?
the ELH FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) states that a character cannot get an epic bonus feat unless the character has a character class that's over 20th level or a prestige class that's over 10th.

That is completely true in 3.0 Ed (the edition that this FAQ points to). My best reading of the 3.5 SRD seems to indicate that they no konger felt the need for this restriction in 3.5.

I am not supporting this rule, I am just pointing out that there appears to be a rules change in 3.5 which contradicts 3.0 -- this makes it important which edition the questioner is playing.

The quote you pulled from the EPIC SRD was referring to the standard 1 feat/3 level allotment that all characters with HD gains.
They refer to those as character levels, as opposed to class levels or wizard/cleric/fighter levels.

Here is the whole quote:

Adding a Second Class
When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class. Just as with standard multiclassing, adding the second class does not confer some of the benefits for a 1st-level character, including maximum hit points from the first Hit Die, quadruple the per-level skill points, starting equipment, starting gold, or an animal companion. An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, an epic character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonus. Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat. All class descriptions provide a list of bonus feats that characters must choose from. [B]When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class.

Emphasis mine.

It is certainly possible that I am misreading this but the term bonus feats seems to indicate that they are not part of standard character level advancement. It is that sentance from which all of this trouble arises (and because of the switch of editions it isn't clear we can use the 3.0 FAQ to resolve this).

I'd actually be in your debt if you could prove this wrong as my principle "anti-fighter" argument is predicated on the bonus feats quote here and I really want to be wrong. Because this rule change really does bad things to the single class fighter at the point that it finally begins to shine again. :uh-huh: :nonono:
TheDarkestOfAngels
04-03-04, 03:57 PM Originally posted by Votan
That is completely true in 3.0 Ed (the edition that this FAQ points to). My best reading of the 3.5 SRD seems to indicate that they no konger felt the need for this restriction in 3.5.

I am not supporting this rule, I am just pointing out that there appears to be a rules change in 3.5 which contradicts 3.0 -- this makes it important which edition the questioner is playing.
what rule change?
That rule has existed since 3e, that's why the 3e FAQ question was made and answered.
They just seem to have forgotten to go back and chance it in the SRD. I remember this because there was some big debate about it for a long time until the FAQ for the ELH was released in the Epic Boards.
The FAQ states the most updated and, more importantly, the correct ruling.
It is certainly possible that I am misreading this but the term bonus feats seems to indicate that they are not part of standard character level advancement. It is that sentance from which all of this trouble arises (and because of the switch of editions it isn't clear we can use the 3.0 FAQ to resolve this).
the problem is that it is very vague as to which it is referring to. It's a problem that apparently was never updated to accomidate for a distinction for bonus feats granted by the class features (such as a wizard's 5th level bonus feat) or the "bonus feat" granted by standard character progression.
I'd actually be in your debt if you could prove this wrong as my principle "anti-fighter" argument is predicated on the bonus feats quote here and I really want to be wrong. Because this rule change really does bad things to the single class fighter at the point that it finally begins to shine again. :uh-huh: :nonono: I'm not sure that I can beyond referring to the epic boards and asking them or referring to the FAQ that I linked to in my previous post.
It doesn't seem to be something very well addressed, but it's not like you or someone else couldn't ask the Sage in a letter or customer service, because, I think, that letting a Class20/Fighter1 take at epic fighter bonus feat is completely stupid beyond stupidness. If you do write them, let me know, K?
Otherwise, I'd just go by the FAQ.
Votan
04-03-04, 08:16 PM Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels
It doesn't seem to be something very well addressed, but it's not like you or someone else couldn't ask the Sage in a letter or customer service, because, I think, that letting a Class20/Fighter1 take at epic fighter bonus feat is completely stupid beyond stupidness. If you do write them, let me know, K?
Otherwise, I'd just go by the FAQ.

I searched the board for this because I hate asking questions that have already been asked many times. The result of an inquiry by Steve Russell about the 3.5 Epic SRD was:

If you just took 20 levels of a non-fighter, and then took your 21st level as a
fighter you would get your standard feat for that level, which could be epic.
Your bonus feat would still have to come from the non-epic feats however. You
would not have access to the fighter's bonus epic feats until your actual
fighter level became 22.

****************************************
***
John
Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support
Website: <http://www.wizards.com>
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
****************************************
***

So, TDOA, you were right. :censored: that ambiguous entry in the 3.5 SRD!!!

Oh well, learn something new every day.
TheDarkestOfAngels
04-03-04, 09:52 PM Originally posted by Votan
I searched the board for this because I hate asking questions that have already been asked many times. The result of an inquiry by Steve Russell about the 3.5 Epic SRD was:

So, TDOA, you were right. :censored: that ambiguous entry in the 3.5 SRD!!!

Oh well, learn something new every day. That's awesome.
I'm really glad I'm right. (someone in a former D&D group of mine actually attempted to do that, but we don't play no mo.)

Do the happy dance! :ayyyy!:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tristandk@hotmail.com 04-03-04, 02:30 AM	Hello, I play a 4 level Spell Caster (Unearthed Arcana) / 10 level Shadow Adept / 10 level DeepDiviner. I just gain a new level (I will be 25 level). I will take a new level from the spell caster class. How does it work ? I will be 5 Spell Caster / 10 SA / 10 DD ? Will I gain the 5 level feat associated with this class ? If yes, can I choose an epic feat ? Thanks for your help. Tristan
Manic Man 04-03-04, 02:41 AM	Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com I will take a new level from the spell caster class. How does it work ? I will be 5 Spell Caster / 10 SA / 10 DD ? Yes Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com Will I gain the 5 level feat associated with this class ? Yes Originally posted by tristandk@hotmail.com If yes, can I choose an epic feat ? No
tristandk@hotmail.com 04-03-04, 02:43 AM	When do I access to an epic feat ? Thanks
tristandk@hotmail.com 04-03-04, 02:56 AM	I can read this in the DMG : EPIC FEATS The following feats are available only to epic characters. Whenever an epic character gains a new feat, it can be from among the standard list of feats or one of the feats described below. So ? Why this 5th level SpellCaster feat couldn't be an Epic one ? Thanks Tristan
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-03-04, 03:08 AM	you can only access epic feats when your character reaches 21st level and gets a feat according to their standard feat progression. (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and so forth). You do NOT gain any epic bonus feats from a class until that class has surpassed 20th level or 10th level in the case of prestige classes, then you recieve an epic feat when the epic progression of that class indicates. For instance, an epic assassin gets his or her first bonus epic feat at level 14. Another example would be that sorcerers and wizards get thier first epic bonus feat at level 23, as stated in the 3.5 DMG.
Votan 04-03-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels you can only access epic feats when your character reaches 21st level and gets a feat according to their standard feat progression. (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, 21st, 24th, and so forth). You do NOT gain any epic bonus feats from a class until that class has surpassed 20th level or 10th level in the case of prestige classes, then you recieve an epic feat when the epic progression of that class indicates. For instance, an epic assassin gets his or her first bonus epic feat at level 14. Another example would be that sorcerers and wizards get thier first epic bonus feat at level 23, as stated in the 3.5 DMG. This is from the 3.5 Epic SRD: Adding a Second Class When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement [. . . .]. Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat [. . . .] When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class. This seems to be clear. Of course it does lead to problems. A barbarian 20 who then goes fighter 20 has more epci feats then a fighter 40! :eek: One may not like this rule (I don't, I can break it too darn easily and it leads to irrational advancement decisions) but it is pretty clear that this is the official interpretation. (This is also reason 101 why pure class fighter is a bad idea -- fewer epic feats).
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-03-04, 02:50 PM	Originally posted by Votan This is from the 3.5 Epic SRD: This seems to be clear. Of course it does lead to problems. A barbarian 20 who then goes fighter 20 has more epci feats then a fighter 40! :eek: how could that possibly be true? the ELH FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) states that a character cannot get an epic bonus feat unless the character has a character class that's over 20th level or a prestige class that's over 10th. THe example used in the question/answer was a 17th level cleric/Fighter 3. When the example rolls over to 21st level, he/she gains a feat as if the character were a fighter 4 and the feat has to be NON EPIC. The standard feat that a character gets at level 21 as per normal 1/3 feat progression of all characters, the character may select an epic feat for that in addition to the nonepic feat for the fighter class. One may not like this rule (I don't, I can break it too darn easily and it leads to irrational advancement decisions) but it is pretty clear that this is the official interpretation. The quote you pulled from the EPIC SRD was referring to the standard 1 feat/3 level allotment that all characters with HD gains. They refer to those as character levels, as opposed to class levels or wizard/cleric/fighter levels. (This is also reason 101 why pure class fighter is a bad idea -- fewer epic feats). Pure fighter is better than any other melee class. Its actually one of the strongest classes around. Certainly better than the paladin and on par with the barbarian, if not superior.
Votan 04-03-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels how could that possibly be true? the ELH FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) states that a character cannot get an epic bonus feat unless the character has a character class that's over 20th level or a prestige class that's over 10th. That is completely true in 3.0 Ed (the edition that this FAQ points to). My best reading of the 3.5 SRD seems to indicate that they no konger felt the need for this restriction in 3.5. I am not supporting this rule, I am just pointing out that there appears to be a rules change in 3.5 which contradicts 3.0 -- this makes it important which edition the questioner is playing. The quote you pulled from the EPIC SRD was referring to the standard 1 feat/3 level allotment that all characters with HD gains. They refer to those as character levels, as opposed to class levels or wizard/cleric/fighter levels. Here is the whole quote: Adding a Second Class When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type. In addition, the character gets the usual skill points from the new class. Just as with standard multiclassing, adding the second class does not confer some of the benefits for a 1st-level character, including maximum hit points from the first Hit Die, quadruple the per-level skill points, starting equipment, starting gold, or an animal companion. An epic character does not gain the base attack bonuses and base save bonuses normally gained when adding a second class. Instead, an epic character uses the epic attack bonus and epic save bonus progression shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonus. Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat. All class descriptions provide a list of bonus feats that characters must choose from. [B]When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class. Emphasis mine. It is certainly possible that I am misreading this but the term bonus feats seems to indicate that they are not part of standard character level advancement. It is that sentance from which all of this trouble arises (and because of the switch of editions it isn't clear we can use the 3.0 FAQ to resolve this). I'd actually be in your debt if you could prove this wrong as my principle "anti-fighter" argument is predicated on the bonus feats quote here and I really want to be wrong. Because this rule change really does bad things to the single class fighter at the point that it finally begins to shine again. :uh-huh: :nonono:
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-03-04, 03:57 PM	Originally posted by Votan That is completely true in 3.0 Ed (the edition that this FAQ points to). My best reading of the 3.5 SRD seems to indicate that they no konger felt the need for this restriction in 3.5. I am not supporting this rule, I am just pointing out that there appears to be a rules change in 3.5 which contradicts 3.0 -- this makes it important which edition the questioner is playing. what rule change? That rule has existed since 3e, that's why the 3e FAQ question was made and answered. They just seem to have forgotten to go back and chance it in the SRD. I remember this because there was some big debate about it for a long time until the FAQ for the ELH was released in the Epic Boards. The FAQ states the most updated and, more importantly, the correct ruling. It is certainly possible that I am misreading this but the term bonus feats seems to indicate that they are not part of standard character level advancement. It is that sentance from which all of this trouble arises (and because of the switch of editions it isn't clear we can use the 3.0 FAQ to resolve this). the problem is that it is very vague as to which it is referring to. It's a problem that apparently was never updated to accomidate for a distinction for bonus feats granted by the class features (such as a wizard's 5th level bonus feat) or the "bonus feat" granted by standard character progression. I'd actually be in your debt if you could prove this wrong as my principle "anti-fighter" argument is predicated on the bonus feats quote here and I really want to be wrong. Because this rule change really does bad things to the single class fighter at the point that it finally begins to shine again. :uh-huh: :nonono: I'm not sure that I can beyond referring to the epic boards and asking them or referring to the FAQ that I linked to in my previous post. It doesn't seem to be something very well addressed, but it's not like you or someone else couldn't ask the Sage in a letter or customer service, because, I think, that letting a Class20/Fighter1 take at epic fighter bonus feat is completely stupid beyond stupidness. If you do write them, let me know, K? Otherwise, I'd just go by the FAQ.
Votan 04-03-04, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels It doesn't seem to be something very well addressed, but it's not like you or someone else couldn't ask the Sage in a letter or customer service, because, I think, that letting a Class20/Fighter1 take at epic fighter bonus feat is completely stupid beyond stupidness. If you do write them, let me know, K? Otherwise, I'd just go by the FAQ. I searched the board for this because I hate asking questions that have already been asked many times. The result of an inquiry by Steve Russell about the 3.5 Epic SRD was: If you just took 20 levels of a non-fighter, and then took your 21st level as a fighter you would get your standard feat for that level, which could be epic. Your bonus feat would still have to come from the non-epic feats however. You would not have access to the fighter's bonus epic feats until your actual fighter level became 22. ************************************** * John Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support Website: <http://www.wizards.com> Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 ************************************** * So, TDOA, you were right. :censored: that ambiguous entry in the 3.5 SRD!!! Oh well, learn something new every day.
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-03-04, 09:52 PM	Originally posted by Votan I searched the board for this because I hate asking questions that have already been asked many times. The result of an inquiry by Steve Russell about the 3.5 Epic SRD was: So, TDOA, you were right. :censored: that ambiguous entry in the 3.5 SRD!!! Oh well, learn something new every day. That's awesome. I'm really glad I'm right. (someone in a former D&D group of mine actually attempted to do that, but we don't play no mo.) Do the happy dance! :ayyyy!: