Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aland 06-13-06, 08:34 AM	Since the New Rule of the Game clarified all equipments would meld into the new form( including wondrous items!) does that mean each time a druid wildshapes, as long as he's wearing some equipments giving WIS bonus, he would actually LOSE bonus spells? And what's the meaning of this? So all the druids now face a spell/wildshape problem or shall I say I overestimated Wizards' "all for the fun of the game" slogan? Or shall every DM and every PC argue over this subject each time a member choose to be a druid? Yes, I find this change ridiculous, really. After being nerfed for so long a time, let us assume it's for the good of the players, the Wildshape now is becoming more frustrating. It cannot be said wise, at least not to me.
Lokathor 06-13-06, 08:39 AM	so they lose a few spells, it's not a huge deal. Druids even with the nerfs are still among the top 3 classes, they're just not unstopably always number 1. If you want you could seperate which spells are in normal slots, and which spells are in slots granted by the +6 wisdom item (or however much the bonus), then just have those spells be inaccessable while you wildshape, and then they "come back" once you end your wildshape.
Aland 06-13-06, 09:20 AM	If you want you could seperate which spells are in normal slots, and which spells are in slots granted by the +6 wisdom item (or however much the bonus), then just have those spells be inaccessable while you wildshape, and then they "come back" once you end your wildshape. The spells would "come back"? Is there any rules supporting this statement? It would be a great help. Another question is, since a creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template, so what if a Druid with the template of Saint( Book of Exalted Deeds) become when it wildshapes? Its type is outsider but the alternate form says it remains its type, and the rule says it cannot get the outsider type. This would happen to all other druids with templates such as half celestial. I'm beginning to be convinced that the wizards would rather publish more books than just justify some stupid rule bugs. And so for " Druid is among the first 3 most powerful classes.....", I'm not very sure of that because of the poor (at least not that powerful spell list) and the DR problem. Some other problems are also agonizing, especially in a Core Only Game, and while the Wizards are changing the rules here and there, now and then.
meabolex 06-13-06, 09:38 AM	I think the intent is that the shapeshift merely removes gear -- not modifies spellcasting ability or prepared bonus spells. They'd be "saved" while shapeshifted. However, the rules don't explicitly say this, so you'll probably have to do some explaining to the DM (: OTOH, it could easily be said that when an item becomes non-functional, you effectively lose the item during the non-functional time period. This is sad because (according to the 3.5 FAQ) you do lose the spells. I could see an argument either way (RAW vs. common sense), but I suppose it's up to a DM to decide. Edit: And I was under the impression you were talking about the PHII variant for some reason (*need coffee*). You're going to lose those bonus spells anyway when wild shaping and using natural spell. Natural spell is already overpowered, so I don't necessarily have a problem with this involving casting during wild shape. However, losing spells AFTER the wild shape or shapeshift is another matter.
Aland 06-13-06, 09:48 AM	Thankfully PHB II is not core (and thank GOD for the last two or three lines on the back cover convincing me this). Or almost every rogue would begin to worry about their jobs. No, I'm talking about Core Rules. And I really don't think Natural Spell is that over-powering, especially when the HP dosen't change so dramatically.
meabolex 06-13-06, 10:26 AM	And I really don't think Natural Spell is that over-powering, especially when the HP dosen't change so dramatically. -2 constitution modifiers to +4-+5 isn't dramatic? (: What about the big chunk of natural armor? I'm not going to get into a "Natural Spell is overpowered" debate, but my opinion is that it needed a tweak and it got one. I'll just leave it at that (:
Aland 06-13-06, 11:02 AM	-2 constitution modifiers to +4-+5 isn't dramatic? (: What about the big chunk of natural armor? I'm not going to get into a "Natural Spell is overpowered" debate, but my opinion is that it needed a tweak and it got one. I'll just leave it at that (: 　 Actually I mean according to the new rules Druid's HP doesn't change whatever its constitution changes into.
meabolex 06-13-06, 11:04 AM	Actually I mean according to the new rules Druid's HP doesn't change whatever its constitution changes into. Ahh! Too many changes to remember! Good point.
Aland 06-13-06, 11:23 AM	Yeah, and also the spell-losing, equipments-eating, language-absorbing wildshape.
Lokathor 06-13-06, 01:54 PM	OTOH, it could easily be said that when an item becomes non-functional, you effectively lose the item during the non-functional time period. This is sad because (according to the 3.5 FAQ) you do lose the spells. I could see an argument either way (RAW vs. common sense), but I suppose it's up to a DM to decide. When the amulet isn't functioning, it's not giving you a +6 enchancement bonus to Wisdom, so your wisdom drops by 6 points and you lose bonus spells; what possible other explanation could you make up? Aland:: There's no offical support at all for my suggestion, but I'd be willing to make that compromize with a player, simply because they're already making a choice between spells or animal shape, they shouldn't have to make it twice, since the new animal shapes aren't as strong as the old wildshape options (and I require all my druids to use this instead of wildshape, but without animal companion loss).
meabolex 06-13-06, 04:15 PM	When the amulet isn't functioning, it's not giving you a +6 enchancement bonus to Wisdom, so your wisdom drops by 6 points and you lose bonus spells; what possible other explanation could you make up? Losing the bonus spell slots is fine logically for the duration of the effect. The problem comes when the wildshape ends. At that point, you get the bonus spell slots back, but they're effectively empty. No spells have been prepared to fill them -- in otherwords, new slots. The "common sense" explanation is that the spell slots disappear, but the memory of preparing the spell(s) doesn't vanish. You can't use the spell(s) while wildshaped -- but you should be able to use them after returning to caster form. I don't think it's fair (or logical) to forget the preparation. By the RAW, however, I don't think this would work.
Sken Dingle 06-13-06, 04:56 PM	Losing the bonus spell slots is fine logically for the duration of the effect. The problem comes when the wildshape ends. At that point, you get the bonus spell slots back, but they're effectively empty. No spells have been prepared to fill them -- in otherwords, new slots. The "common sense" explanation is that the spell slots disappear, but the memory of preparing the spell(s) doesn't vanish. You can't use the spell(s) while wildshaped -- but you should be able to use them after returning to caster form. I don't think it's fair (or logical) to forget the preparation. By the RAW, however, I don't think this would work. I understand for simpicity sake why they made the item rule. It's crappy, because of the reasons stated by previous posts, but whatever. I do agree with the above quote. It's logical and it is within the spirit of the rules for simplicity sake. I have a fix. Take the item off, especially if it is an amulet. Change. And have a fellow PC put the item on in animal form. There. You may lose the spells you memorized, but you do get the wisdom boost to spell DCs when you have natural spell. Finally... I love. You get the bonuses for strength for attacks and damage, but you don't get con bonus for HP. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think the nature god that gave me the gift of Wild shape wants to pick and choose which physical attributes she wants to give me and which she doesn't. "Yeah, you know I don't mind you having the STRENGTH of a bear, but its toughness... Eh, I don't think so." Nice, way to go wizards.
Aland 06-14-06, 01:05 AM	Thank you, guys, all of you. But since the spell lost problem is actually caused (and confirmed) by the RULE, I think unless a new Rule of the Game or new Errata or FAQ comes to my rescue, I would still be doomed in the Nine Hells.
Harzerkatze 06-14-06, 08:01 AM	In case people feel confused what the recent wildshape rules are, I advise looking into my updated Master of Many Forms Bible + official wild shape rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=639448). It's not only for MMFs. Regarding the questions in this thread: - Yes, when you wildshape, syour items meld, you lose their boni, which include extra spells. What happens when you return to your original shape is a bit fuzzy: A strict reading of the rules would probably return the slots empty, but I advise to go over that and have the spells return. We usually don't track if you character ever took of his headband of wisdom to brush his hair or tend to a wound either. No need to be overexact. - When you are an outsider, no new problems with wildshape exist. Yes, you retain your outsider type. You can still wildshape into all your former forms. A druid cannot wildshape into a humanoid either, but most druids are humanoids to begin with. No problem, because what type you are and what types you can wildshape into is not connected.
Tristan 06-14-06, 03:01 PM	of course druids gain hp if their con goes up for wild shaping. Their wild shape is based off the polymorph spell, the PHII says that any spell previously printed works the exact same way. The only thing that that "HP stay the same" rule effects is new polymorphs spells like Dragon Shape. right?
Aland 06-15-06, 12:44 AM	Actually, Wildshape now refers to Alternate Form...............according to the Errata and Rule of the Game........