Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Livewire 06-05-06, 10:00 PM	Ok, I was going through the Spell Compendium and wondering what spells should be allowed the Duskblade. It's not as unbalancing as adding spells to a Warmage/Beguiler since the number of spells are fixed. My suggestions. 0-level Caltrops- It's more an area effect spell, but it seems to fit, that or my liking of the spell clouds my judgement Electric Jolt- it's the electric version of ray of frost. Sonic snap- See Electric Jolt 1st level Blade of fire- Simple damage augment Arrow Mind- Again, a combat augment, might not be thematically approproiate. Critical Strike- Again, a close combat buff. Targeting Ray- Seems to fit with other spells. Ray of flame- another Ray option Ebon Eyes- Darkvision's stepson Low Light Vision- son of Darkvision Ray of Clumsiness- I liked the R&R name better. 2nd level Dispell Ward- A level higher to keep with Dispel magic Distracting Ray- another ray Discern Shapechanger - In line with see invisible Ray of Stupidity- Another good ol' ray. Sting ray- yup more rays Burning Sword- Blade of fire, all grown up! Ray of Ice- another ray Scorch- and it's popular friend, scotch. Blade Weave- seems to fit Ray of sickness- oh you get the point Ray of Weakness Wracking Touch- Needs more touch effects for channelling. Earthbind- Scorpion: "Get down here!" Sonic Weapon- Another weapon augment. Whirling blade- likely more in style than Arrow mind. Spells that should -never- be on their list: Wraithstrike. That's all for now
Lokathor 06-06-06, 01:39 AM	I can see Wraithstrike being an "ultimate technique" for them, and I'd be willing to place it as a 5th level spell. It's almost nonsense to think that is so close-comabt devoted would never learn the secrets of melee manipulation that any 3rd level wizard can know. It could of course be a very hard spell for them to perform for one reason or another. Just because Wizard and Assassin get it at 2 and 3 respectively doesn't mean that if the duskblade had it they'd have to have it at level 2 or 3.
Witch 06-06-06, 02:40 AM	Hmmm. Extra Spell (Wraithstrike), anyone? :)
Mobiledwm 06-06-06, 03:02 AM	Hmmm. Extra Spell (Wraithstrike), anyone? :) Let's not even go there. There be munchkins!!!
Lokathor 06-06-06, 05:32 AM	ah yes, Extra Spell... my simple "fix" for the feat is to allow a character to learn any spell they want (subject to the limits of the feat), but once it's transferred to their spellcasting class the spell's level might change depending on how it balances against similar spells on that person's class list. A powerful spell balanced as being a 4th level ranger spell should simply be turned into a 7th or 8th level spell when the druid takes it, for example. A "case by case" solution isn't very cean design, but it sure stops a few otherwise balanced spells from wreaking havoc on things. "Favor of the Martyr" anyone?
hypervole 06-06-06, 08:00 AM	Do you think it would be viable for all an updated section that adds in spells as new books are released and checks older books for spells suitable for certain classes. So a new class such as the Duskblade would have the normal list plus suitable spells from the Spell Compendium and all 'core' books so far published. Also when Hordes of the Abyss comes out the new spells would be checked for compatibility and added accordingly. It would stop the repeated printing of pretty much the same spells over and over because this class in this book should have one like this spell in the Compendium or this one from Hero's of Horror.
WayneTheGame 06-06-06, 08:10 AM	I am torn on the allowing of a Duskblade to have extra spells.. on one hand I think it adds versatility to the class (when the spells chosen are within reason, of course) but on the other hand the potential for abuse is out there. At the very least I would have liked to see Haste and Wraithstrike (Wraithstrike, of course, being 5th level to balance it out) on the list. I think that Wizards should publish some sort of addendum to the PHBII that basically outlines which spells from Spell Compendium could be reasonably added to the Duskblade's list. By saying what *could* be, as opposed to what *should* be, leaves it up to the DM in the end (which should go without saying, in any event). Just my :twocents:
LiamDeclan 06-06-06, 02:35 PM	You know the Hexblade never got any new spells in either Spell compendium or in the PHB II so there might be something about that about balance thing. On the other hand I agree with the OP on his list and would love to see more spells for the Duskblade from the Spell Compendium. The whole ray thing should be available at the least.
ManoVega 06-06-06, 05:11 PM	Can someone please explain to me why everyone seems to thing Wraithstrike is so damn good? Because it makes an attack a touch attack? So what? A DB can only do it a few times anyways, and their to hit is damn good as to almost not need it. Worse case scenario you actually use your spell and make the touch attack and only lose weapon dmg. Seems like a waste to take Wraithstrike over Combust... which is the real broken spell. 1d8 per level no save or touch attack? I'll take the 9d8 damage thank you very much.
Witch 06-06-06, 05:13 PM	You know the Hexblade never got any new spells in either Spell compendium or in the PHB II so there might be something about that about balance thing. It's an issue with the fact that supplements never add spells to other supplements classes.
DarkRhystar 06-06-06, 06:57 PM	Can someone please explain to me why everyone seems to thing Wraithstrike is so damn good? Because it makes an attack a touch attack? So what? A DB can only do it a few times anyways, and their to hit is damn good as to almost not need it. Worse case scenario you actually use your spell and make the touch attack and only lose weapon dmg. Seems like a waste to take Wraithstrike over Combust... which is the real broken spell. 1d8 per level no save or touch attack? I'll take the 9d8 damage thank you very much. First it's a Swift Action meaning you can cast it and Full Attack in the same round. Next combine with a full attack. 4 attacks dealing 1d8 + 8 each isn't too much to ask at a high level. That's a 4d8+32. Next let us add Arcane Channeling with Shocking Grasp. Each attack deals an additional 5d6 damage. Against heavily armored enemies, this single spell can reduce their AC by well over 11 points. Thanks to Wraith Strike, even your lowest AB attack is now likely to hit that heavily armored warrior. Now we're looking at 4d8+20d6+32 damage which is averages 120 damage in one round and this is with a conservative estimate of the Duskblades normal melee damage and spell use. That 20d6 would be 40d6 if the Duskblade used Vampiric Touch (and healing too). The power of Wraith Strike isn't just that it makes you more likely to hit a heavily armored enemy with every hit including the low AB ones, but that the Duskblade can keep channeling her spell with every hit for major damage. More damage from Combust may be nice, but which is more worthwhile... dropping that enemy's AC by anywhere from 8 (full plate) to 21 (Full Plate +5/Heavy Shield +5) thereby ensuring that all your attacks hit or a little more damage with no guarantee that even 50% of your attacks will hit? Still want that Combust instead?
Lokathor 06-06-06, 08:07 PM	And lets not forget that if you're willing to give up your last attack's chance of hitting you can easily add +10 damage to all hits with power attack while using a greatsword. 21d6+54 makes for a cool 127 average (and that assumes that the base greatsword damage is only 2d6+8, likely somewhat higher). These numbers aren't huge, but they're definately too good to hand out as a 2nd or 3rd level spell for the duskblade (gained at 5th and 9th level respectively).
ManoVega 06-06-06, 09:00 PM	First, how do you get 4 attacks at 13th level? If it's from TWF, then your off hand doesn't get as much of a Str. Bonus. If you are blowing ALL your feats just to fight with two weapons, then you're already wasting your time. I'd also like to know how you got to a +8 to damage. Numbers in a vacuum never really add up. I see, you are interpreting the FUll Attack Channeling differently than I am. When I read "the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round" I assume it means different targets. I don't think the spell will affect the same person over and over again, but I guess that's my interpretation. Wraithstrike is definitely an interesting spell, but assuming a channeled spell can't affect the same target twice, Combust on several targets would be much better.
Archangel62 06-06-06, 10:22 PM	Actually by 13th level that touch spell affects all your targets. I'm all for weapon buff feats and a few personal buffs but I don't do wraithstrike since it seems like it would get far too powerful with the class design as listed. Personally I have no problem with many of the boosts to the list, Critical Strike for example, but I can see how certain additions can become overpowering.
Lokathor 06-07-06, 02:54 AM	huh... +8... well.. maybe a +3 weapon and a 20 Str? 4 attacks comes from being either level 16, or level 13 with haste. How many times you can hit one person and have them affected by the spell on the full attack is up for argument (though, i do support your interpretation personally). In the end, it just outshines all the other melee base classes by too much to give out for as little investment as it would take. Making Wraithstrike a 5th level spell for duskblades would both delay access to it and make it have less uses per day, pulling it into the "reasonable" zone.
DarkRhystar 06-07-06, 11:26 AM	First, how do you get 4 attacks at 13th level? If it's from TWF, then your off hand doesn't get as much of a Str. Bonus. If you are blowing ALL your feats just to fight with two weapons, then you're already wasting your time. I'd also like to know how you got to a +8 to damage. Numbers in a vacuum never really add up. Just to reiterate the above posters... Whoever said two weapons? At level 16, you get a fourth attack. I never specified a level in my post. If you're dead set on level 13, think of Haste and there you go. There's no shortage of ways to get more attacks these days. +8 to damage? Do you really see getting that as a problem for a melee character? A character with a 16 in Strength, a belt of giant strength (+4), and a +3 longsword can easily get +8. If you're level 13 or higher, that's well below standard wealth guidelines. If a Duskblade was going to be made into a dedicated melee character, I would actually expect this to be a lot higher. I thought +8 was a fairly conservative estimation. I see, you are interpreting the FUll Attack Channeling differently than I am. When I read "the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round" I assume it means different targets. I don't think the spell will affect the same person over and over again, but I guess that's my interpretation. Yup, that's why I put that as the title of the sblock as it may very well be invalid if a Duskblade can only hit an enemy once. Although, I can't understand the logic of that. Why would you be able to smack one enemy, shock it, smack another enemy, shock it, but not be able to shock the first enemy again? It's like saying the Shocking weapon property can only effect a target once per round even though it's constantly discharging electricity. Still, that is one interpretation of it. :) Wraithstrike is definitely an interesting spell, but assuming a channeled spell can't affect the same target twice, Combust on several targets would be much better. I believe that both spells are beneficial at different times. Doesn't matter how much extra damage combust does if you can't hit the enemy right? ;)
ManoVega 06-07-06, 12:47 PM	I know how you can get those attacks and damage, I was wondering how you were thinking about it. Basically my thought is that at 16th level with a build as you suggested, you already have +24/+19/+14/+9 to hit. Already pretty decent chances of hitting anyways, and as you suggested a conservative number. I guess it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. I feel Combust is a broken spell, and by your rules so is Wraithstrike.