Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vashwood 01-29-06, 03:18 PM	Alright, now we all know what's coming: yet another rant about Fighters being A) broken cause they have so many feats, or B) weak because all they get are feats. Well, yes and no, actually. This is actually a little more about adding a bit of flavor to your Fighter class, though "balancing" it comes into the equation as well. Now then, I'm sure we can all agree on one thing: the Fighter, as a class, is rather featureless. I mean, it's summed up in like 4 paragraphs, and the chart of it looks like a postage stamp ... well, alright, admittedly, this isn't much of a way to judge things. I suppose in a way this is actually how it's supposed to be ... but it always seemed to me that when it came to flavor, the Fighter is the tofu of the group. But, anyhow, I figured I'd work on a few little variants to spice things up a bit, and make the fighter into something that isn't ... well, Cloud from FF7. Here's a thought: perhaps the Fighter, being the consummate master of combat that he is, should gain free proficiencies? I mean, it makes sense ... fighters aren't just some moron with a sword, they are all around skilled and versitile combatants, so it would make sense if they just learned to use more weapons than the typical Barbarian or Ranger. Say, a new proficiency every 2 or 3 levels? It would make sense, and would give those Fighters who just spend their spare time training (with no social skills on their class list, they certainly aren't up to much else in town) a realistic result. If you really wanted to, even make training mandatory for this ... say, require a week's training with the weapon before gaining proficiency. Now then, it also comes up alot that unarmed strike using Fighters have a special name: idiots. When you're doing a d3 of damage compared to the Monk's d6+, it seems like they have a major edge ... fair enough, seeing as punching is what Monks do. However, Monks eventually end up dishing out 2d10, a heftier damage die than any weapon a Fighter can find, and the Fighter still has that d3 ... or, well, d4, if they take that one monster feat ( 1 point of damage higher, yay!). Now, before the flamers start getting their torches ready, let me say this: Fighters should not be able to out-fight a Monk in hand to hand ... however, they should be able to make a half-way decent showing. A Monk's training is highly regimented, and affords them speed, excellent saves, high damage strikes and layers of defensive capabilities. They fight with lethal precision, ala Stunning Fist, and artful hand to hand strike. Fighters might take to brawling though, so it stands to figure that while they wouldn't be able to punch down walls, they might well be good at the more "down and dirty" style of unarmed fighting: trips, disarms, maybe a bit of grappling, etc. Basicly, your Monk is a martial artist (emphasis on artist) who grew up in a dojo or whatever ... your Fighter is the streetfighter who learned his unarmed combat through getting into countless brawls. Sorry for the long explanation, but I feel it's necessary to explain the reasoning behind my proposal. Basicly, make Unarmed Combat into three layers of proficiency, rather than a normal feat. Simple unarmed combat allows you to strike in melee with a d3 of damage, not provoke an attack of opportunity, but doesn't allow you to threaten an area. Martial unarmed combat means you're a bit better: you deal a d4, threaten an area, and don't provoke attacks of opportunity, and you can deal Lethal damage with attacks. Exotic means you're far better than most commoners ... treat yourself to a d6 of damage, and your unarmed strikes can be used to trip and disarm, adding +2 to your bonuses to do either. Of course, it goes without saying that Martial requires Simple as a pre-req, and that Exotic requires Martial. This, I feel, rather well covers how a non-martial artist type would progress ... from inept (non proficient), to capable fighters who have some experience, but are unlikely to kill anyone (Simple proficiency), to the hardened brawlers who might well crack a skull with a good punch (Martial proficiency), to the guys who finally have, through various experiments, picked up a pseudo-martial art through too much practice. An Exotic unarmed fighter can't out-damage a monk in hand to hand, sure, but he has a bit more versility (almost remaniscent of the drunken master) in what he can do, as his training was a bit more unorthadox. This, again, fits the feel of a flexible combat character. Well, anyhow, constructive criticism, suggestions and opinions welcome.
Tillie_the_Pirate 01-29-06, 04:40 PM	I'm sure we can all agree on one thing: the Fighter, as a class, is rather featureless. I do not agree. The feats are the features. You have to admit, having that many combat feats is rather unique compared to the other classes. Sure, they get special abilities unique to their classes, but in the same respect, so do fighters. They go for quantity that leads to quality, not just quality.
Kursk 01-29-06, 06:11 PM	"Flavor" has to do with role playing not abilities. I've played many fighters over the last 25 or so years. I as a player gave them flavor. From many posts I see it seems a lot of new players don't have the concept of RPing at all.
Fuzzy_Logic 01-29-06, 06:21 PM	A fighter cna already outfight a monk hand-to-hand if he's halfway trying. and that's as it should be; fighters are, after all, the overall masters of combat. monks are dabblers. remember that fighters can wear armor and still punch people out, and thus have better HP and AC to last a prolonged fist fight. magic gauntlets can help make up for lower damage output. in any case, a monk up against a wrestling fighter in single combat has no hope. the fighter has more BAB and probably mroe strength, so he's winning those opposed grapple checks.
Lotus Crane 01-29-06, 06:46 PM	Fuzzy Logic: You don't even know what this topic is about, do you? You just pasted your standard pre-written pro-fighter drivel, didn't you? We're talking about flavor. For once, who cares whether a fighter would win or lose in a fight against a barbarian or monk or wizard...
Thorak 01-29-06, 10:27 PM	Fuzzy Logic: You don't even know what this topic is about, do you? You just pasted your standard pre-written pro-fighter drivel, didn't you? We're talking about flavor. Okay, let's talk about flavor. A Fighter isn't pigeonholed as an illiterate near-savage from the fringes of society. He isn't required to be LG and follow a strict code of ethics. He isn't a monastery-dwelling initiate of mystic arts. He isn't a nature-worshipping woodsman. He can be absolutely everything else, and the limit on flavor is only your own imagination. If anything, the Fighter's flavor is better than the other classes, in that it is completely unrestricted. You can be any kind of combatant you want. You aren't forced to be something you dislike by the mechanics of the class. A Fighter has more roleplaying possibilities than most other classes, simply because it has no flavor requirements. And yes, of course, you can change the flavor of any other class. But if you're doing that, there's absolutely no reason you can't come up with a flavor for whatever type of Fighter you want, too, and it takes less fiddling with the rules to make it work.
BadCatMan 01-29-06, 11:01 PM	I feel that flavour and RP should be supported by the rules and stats. Its no good being a nimble swashbuckling Fighter if you've got low Reflex saves and can't dodge that fireball and can't tumble past a giant or balance on a stair railing. Or being a hardened veteran with an iron will if you fail a Will save and run from the dragon. One day, I'll DM and I'm thinking of replacing Fighters with the Generic Warrior of Unearthed Arcana and the SRD. Choose your good save and your class skills, and you can be any kind of Fighter you want to be. Just as it should be. Of course, this Fighter shouldn't be able to get the class features of other classes (ie. Rage, Smite, Sneak Attack) like the normal Generic classes. I also might limit the chosen class skills to include at least 2 or 3 standard Fighter skills. I would also have to keep an eye on PrC access.
Vashwood 01-30-06, 12:23 AM	Ok, here's the thing ... yes, the fighter can potentially beat the hell out of any other class: Provided the player is highly competant. There's the thing, a skilled player can make anything work, and the ability to customize does indeed favor them alot as well. In this case, the fighter is obviously troublesome. This, however, is not the point. All I'm saying is, ever class has a RP element to it that the others don't. Rangers have a little magic and tracking skills, paladins smite, barbarians rage, monks ... well, monks do alot of wierd stuff. Fighters deserve some kind of distinction other than "the guy with too many damn feats". Thinking about it this way, when you're in town, every class has a bit of flavor as to how they would do things. A ranger or druid might go and care for their pets, or join the socially inept barbarian outside the town to sleep out under the stars. Your monk might train in the courtyard of the inn, while the wizard looks on every once in a while from his spellbook, and meanwhile the sorcerer is inside trying to draw on new eyebrows after his latest experiment in spontaneous casting. The paladin might go to church with the cleric, while the rogue slips off to gather information, or at least some light change, perhaps from distracted audience members of the bard, who is playing in the town square. And what is the fighter doing? I dunno, prolly in some bar or something. Yes, a truely skilled RPer can bring out character even in the fighter, but it shouldn't be required to do so. I don't think the suggestions I've made are gamebreaking, I think they fit fairly well with what they all around fighter would get. I mean really, he isn't the rage filled axe wielder, he's not a master of the bow or dual blades, he isn't even the holy warrior that crushes undead underfoot ... he's the fighter, the guy who's seen so much combat that he can pick up nearly anything, and he should prolly know more about weapons than any of the aforementioned melee types. Lastly, People, I ask a simple thing: are these abilities and changes that I have made logical, interesting and/or gamebreaking? I don't care how flavorful your fighter is, it's wonderful that you can manage, but does this stuff I've suggested make sense, and add a little to it? Simple questions, and all I require are simple answers, not comments on how broken or weak this class is.
Cadfan 01-30-06, 02:54 AM	Were I in charge, I'd do the following for every class in the game: I'd give the characters two sets of skill points, one for class skills, and one for cross class skills. Cross class skills would still be capped as they are now. I'd keep powerful, confrontation related skills in the class skills (hide, spot, tumble, ride), and I'd move flavorful roleplaying skills into a cross-class category (knowledge local, appraise, craft, swim, perform for someone with no perform related abilities). If a skill was on neither of your lists, you could buy it by paying 2 for 1 like normal. Perhaps I'd require you to pay from your class points. So, for example, a fighter could buy ranks in Ride as per normal, because that's a combat type skill on his class list. He could buy ranks in Appraise with his secondary skill points, paying 1 point for 1 rank, with the limitation that he couldn't get more than his cross-class limit as per current rules. And he could buy ranks in Hide by spending his class skills 2 for 1, so it would be possible, but not any easier than it is now. That way, there would be incentive to spend points on quirks for your character. As it stands, there's no reason for a pirate character to, say, learn to sing, because that directly trades off with his ability to swim, climb rigging, and crew a boat. Having some skill points reserved for that sort of thing could help round out people's characters and make them a little more flavorful. Anyways, for right now, just remember the Guerilla Warrior and Guerilla Scout feats. The fighter can afford to take those, and they can help with some of the basic, everyday skills.