Additions to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list [Archive] - Wizards Community

Additions to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:02 PM As I've brought up in the various class balance discussions going on, I dont feel that the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is really all it should be, mechanically or themeatically.
Especially since Sorcerers and Wizards get nothing at all aside from their magic (and in the wizards case, bonus feats to enhance their magic).

To help this, these are the spells I'd be likely to add to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list if I was running a basic DnD game.

0th level: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink

1st level: Command, Death Watch, Doom, Sanctuary

2nd level: Align Weapon, Augury, Death Knell, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Enthrall, Find Traps, Make Whole, Searing Light, Shield Of Faith*, Shield Other, Silence

3rd level: Create Food and Water, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, Restoration, Lesser, Zone of Truth

4th level: Air Walk, Divination, Flame Strike (all fire), Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity

5th level: Command, Greater, Death Ward, Discern Lies, Spell Resistance

6th level: Animate Objects, Antilife Shell, Find the Path, Forbiddance, Glyph of Warding, Greater, Wind Walk

7th level:

8th level: Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Spell Immunity, Greater, Word of Chaos

9th level: Cloak of Chaos, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Storm of Vengeance, Unholy Aura

*Shield of Faith would have a difference name of course.

Also, if it was really up to me, in my ideal world (aside from also doing away with the whole Arcane/Divine concept), I would give mages limited healing ability, as follows.

0th level: Cure Minor Wounds
2nd level: Cure Light Wounds
3rd level: Cure Moderate Wounds
4th level: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Slow Poison
5th level: Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Poison
6th: Cure Light Wounds, Mass, Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration
7th level: Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
8th level: Cure Serious Wounds, Mass, Restoration, Greater
9th level: Cure Critical Wounds, Mass, Heal

Now I realize that most are totaly against the idea of mages healing, which is why I didnt include it in the main body. But its a prejudice that makes no sense to me, so while I was at it I figured I'd include how I would go about doing that.

I might would even slice off a few of the higher level ones entirely.

Anyway, I just wanted to get peoples thoughts on the issue, and this aproach.
kedi
08-07-04, 03:13 PM O boi.

Current Wizard spell list is already too good compared to Cleric spell llist. If were to give these spells, Wizards would be invincible.
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:17 PM Umm....Wizard spell list is too good compared to the Cleric?

Wizards would be invincible?

Care to try and back any of that up in any way?

Its a pretty commonly held belief that, accept at very high level, the Sorcerer/Wizard list doesnt have a lot to offer. Especially since you can play a Cleric, get a lot of the same stuff, have total access to the whole spell list for free, and get to cast it all in plate mail with a d8 hit die, medium BAB and good Fort saves

Besides which some of these things are as much thematic as anything. A wizard who spends his entire life studying magic cant cast Spell resistance or Spell Immunity? Does that make ANY sense?
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:22 PM On second thought, dont try to back it up. I dont really want this to become just a second is the cleric to powerful thread.

although a little more specfic criticism would be nice, and some reasons
MesaCraft
08-07-04, 03:23 PM Clerics don't get Fireball, Disintegrate, Magic Missle, Baleful Polymorph, Teleport, and it goes on and on.

Clerics don't get Wizard spells and Wizard's don't get heals and clericy spells....FOR A REASON. They are 2 seperate classes, that do 2 different things.

Cleric spell list is fine, and Wizard Spell list is fine....you want both? Multiclass and become a Mystic Theurge.
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:29 PM Again, some backup? reasons?

I can understand the healing part, but the main part of my list doesnt include any healing.

Why should awizard not have Spell resistance? Air Walk? Death Ward?

And actually, Clerics can get Teleport, and Disitigrate. And Fireball isnt really that great a spell anyway.

But this thread isnt about the Cleric list versus the Wizard list, its about wether the Wizard list is suffcient given that its all the wizard gets.

Cleric spell list is fine, and Wizard Spell list is fine

Most of the people on this board would disagree with one or both of those. A strong case can be made for the Cleric list including many things it shouldnt, and a similiar case for the Wizard list not really being strong enough given that a Wizard has no other class features.

On what do you base your opnion?

FOR A REASON. They are 2 seperate classes, that do 2 different things

many different classes that do many different things get many of the same spells...and/or same types of spells.

you want both?

Nope. I want a Sorcerer/Wizard spell list that works mechanically and themeatically. that is strong enough to be the classes only feature, and that lives up to the fact that historically Mages have been THE "magic class".
kedi
08-07-04, 03:38 PM ...and that lives up to the fact that historically Mages have been THE "magic class". :uh-huh:

Now, what are you talking about? Wizards are even can be the least MAGIC class historically.

There are Witches, Druids (aka Shamans), Acolytes, there are very few WIZARD tales historically (only two I recall: Merlin and Wizard of Oz).

Wizard class list is not intented to be as protective as cleric's. Wizards have tasty attack spells: Magic Missile. Fireball. Lightning Bolt. Disintegrate. Polymorph. Phantasmal Killer. Weird. And so on.

This *is* a wizard vs cleric thread. Otherwise how can we discuss on the spell lists?
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:45 PM Now, what are you talking about? Wizards are even can be the least MAGIC class historically.

I meant historically in DnD. Till third edition Wizard was the only class that even got 9 levels of spells.

And in fantasy history well...usualy theres not the whole silly arcane/divine thing but that aside wizards/sorcerers/mages/whatevers are generally the big-time users of magic as whole, as oposed to a certain area of magic.

In DnD, they've been turned into mobile artilerly platforms.

Wizard class list is not intented to be as protective as cleric's

perhaps not, but does that mean that wizards have to suck at defense, especially against magic there area of lifelong study? (No Spell Resistance, no Spell Immunity).

And while it does say that protection is one focus of the Cleric, no where does it say that means everyone else has to be inferior to them at it.

Of course thats aside from the whole balance issues of Clerics getting to be powerful spellcasters and medium level warriors at the same time but I digress.

This *is* a wizard vs cleric thread. Otherwise how can we discuss on the spell lists?

Huh? Theres more than 2 spell lists in the game. And even if not, Cleric spell list versus Wizard spell list isnt the same thing as Wizard Versus cleric.

this is about wether the Wizard spell list needs a boost, and opnions on my attempt at it.

If you really believe the Wizard spell list is fine or even to powerful, its probably not the thread for you.
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:48 PM Unless you want to discuss why you feel no changes need to be made to the wizard list. Not why its balanced against the clerics, or anyone elses...but why you feel its strong enough to be the classes sole class feature
Kursk
08-07-04, 03:49 PM The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years. I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class.

IMHO :ayyyy!:
Merlion
08-07-04, 03:57 PM I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class.

You've never seen any of the discussions of the Clerics unbalance or the rather blah nature of the Sor/Wiz spell list, especially prior to say 7th or 8th level spells?

Also, what exactly defines "cleric type spells"

How are Spell Resistance, Air Walk, Flame Strike, Wind Walk, Glyph of Warding, Searing Light, Create Food and Water, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, and even Zone of Truth, Discern Lies, Animate Objects, "Cleric type spells", to the point that no one else(or at least not mages) should have access to them?

Wizards already do get a few of some of these types of spells...they have some defense especially at high levels...but why no Spell Resistance?

And to me Flame Strike, Air Walk, Wind Walk, Searing Light all seem very wizard like...damage dealing, dealing with the elements.

Glyph of Warding is just a basic magical concept.

The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years.

Not entirely true. Untill 3 or 4 years ago, only Wizards got spells above 7th level.

And Clerics couldnt turn themselves into fighters, or gain acces to things like Teleport, Disintegrate, Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee etc via domains.
amoeba
08-07-04, 04:17 PM Originally posted by Kursk
The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years. I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class.

IMHO :ayyyy!:

actually, the 2 spell types have not been separated for 25+ years. You are correct that up until 3rd edition, its been separated, but since then, priests have been granted increasing access to arcane list.
quaiven
08-07-04, 04:27 PM Well if the problem as you see it is that Clerics are overpowered, and wizard/sorcorers are underpowered, why not nerf the cleric instead of boosting the wizard/sorsorers?
Kerrexl
08-07-04, 04:35 PM Originally posted by Merlion
Not entirely true. Untill 3 or 4 years ago, only Wizards got spells above 7th level. Which is not entirely true, since '91 until 2000 there have been 8 levels of cleric spells.. 1-7 + Quest... but never mind that.
Besides alot of 7th level 2e Cleric spells, were as powerfull as Wizard 9th... Need I say Gate and Succor and Symbol was a cleric 7, wiz 8...
And there are many more examples... so now, the clerics in 2e didn't have less power, their spells where just crammed into 7 levels insted of 9....

but back to your list...

8th level: Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos

These Word's of alignment, is IMO more base on the power of the dietry, to force planar beings to supper the wraith from an opposite "homeplane" creatures might... and are more a cleric way, where wizards treat creatures of different allignment more of the same - who care if your familiar is an imp or a cat og some celestrial... it is a magic being under your control... where as you wouldn't se a paladin riding a nightmare... The religious classes are more focused on the Alignment of creatures then wizards- IMO.

And regarding "Spell Immunity"-similar spells... these spells have been researched in different variant for those wizard who have needed them... (Elminster has a version... :))

Though glyph of warding - I could accept that.... :)
Blakk_Magemaster
08-07-04, 06:24 PM You want to know why wizards don't get spell resistance. Think of it like this. You have two fighters with really high AC. what happens? They don't hit! They keep attacking and no one gets hit. Even worse, you have one with high AC and he hits everyone while no noe hits him. That's the reason. You give wizards the ability to block spells even remotly, and you have a problem.

Now, I can't see what's wrong with the wiz/sor spell list. Granted I see a problem with how the arcane classes are constructed but that's another story. Now, you keep telling everyine to "back themselves" and I haven't seen any from you. Why is it you see the wizard/sorcerer as so week? And this is going to end up a "wiz spell list vs another" because you can't say one spell list is weak without comparing it to another.That would probably get some better responces if people can see where you're coming from.
Merlion
08-07-04, 06:32 PM You give wizards the ability to block spells even remotly, and you have a problem.

....but giving it to Clerics is ok on that basis?

Now, I can't see what's wrong with the wiz/sor spell list. Granted I see a problem with how the arcane classes are constructed but that's another story. Now, you keep telling everyine to "back themselves" and I haven't seen any from you. Why is it you see the wizard/sorcerer as so week? That would probably get some better responces if people can see where you're coming from.

Look at it this way. Wizards(and sorcerers) have nothing accept magic. No combat ability. Lowest hit points in the game, no armor, no weapons, worst BAB, one good save, and no class features. Magic is all they have. Just as armed combat is all the fighter has.

So just as the fighter is the best at armed combat overall, the mages should be the best at magic overall.

As it stands, Wizards/Sorcerers are really good at damage and offense, and deccent at utility, and thats about it especially prior to very high level.

I dont feel that there spell list is extensive or strong enough to be their one and only real class feature.

Themeatically, I also feel that the Wizard/Sorcerer archtype is that of the Master of Magic, not as the nuker/teleporter. They should be at least passingly familiar with pretty much all types of magic, and at least average with most. As it is, there only really good at a couple things (damage, certain forms of utility) and are completely barred from at least 2 (healing/reparing, alignment)

These Word's of alignment, is IMO more base on the power of the dietry, to force planar beings to supper the wraith from an opposite "homeplane" creatures might... and are more a cleric way, where wizards treat creatures of different allignment more of the same - who care if your familiar is an imp or a cat og some celestrial... it is a magic being under your control... where as you wouldn't se a paladin riding a nightmare... The religious classes are more focused on the Alignment of creatures then wizards- IMO.

Alignment and religion arent mutually exclusive. I've never understood why good and evil magic is only avaible to priests. Why cant a good wizard (or an evil one) call upon the force of good or evil?

Well if the problem as you see it is that Clerics are overpowered, and wizard/sorcorers are underpowered, why not nerf the cleric instead of boosting the wizard/sorsorers?

Because even if the Cleric were brought down and made balanced, the wizard list would still be to sparse to be their only class feature, besides the thematic issues. Its not just about Cleric VS Wizard its about Wizard viability
Blakk_Magemaster
08-07-04, 06:47 PM You just said what I just touched on. The problem isn't the spell list but how the arcane classes were designed to begin with. ALL they get is magic. That's all they're good at and that's the problem with the class. There is no support. And what you said about fighters being the best armed combat overall is exactly why it doesn't balance well against the other classes. Versatility is what is needed in D&D.

....but giving it to Clerics is ok on that basis?

If you read the example I gave about the fighters and AC, you would understand.

You should not give arcane spellcasters divine healing. That's just wrong. You say that wiz/sor should be the "masters of magic" Arcane magic, not divine concidering that the two are differant types of magic, one the wiz can't cast.
Merlion
08-07-04, 07:00 PM The problem isn't the spell list but how the arcane classes were designed to begin with. ALL they get is magic

Umm......what else is a class thats called Wizard, or Sorcerer, likely to have besides magic?

If you read the example I gave about the fighters and AC, you would understand.

read it. Still dont get why its ok for the Cleric and not the Wizard.

You should not give arcane spellcasters divine healing

You dont need to worry about that since it is impossible to give arcane spellcasters divine anything. Wether a spell is arcane or divine is determined by the caster, not the spell.

You say that wiz/sor should be the "masters of magic" Arcane magic,concidering that the two are differant types of magic, one the wiz can't cast

You dont seem to understand how the Arcane/Divine concept works (although it is very badly done which is another reason it should simply be removed).

By the rules, magic is pretty much magic. There are guidlines and suggestions as to what arcane and divine magic each lean toward, but thats it.

The only actual hard and fast differences between them in the rules are: The casting stat, wether or not the caster suffers spell failure in armor, and where the power comes from.

There is nothing that says an arcane spellcaster cant heal (see the Bard spell list).

Nor is there anything that says Divine spellcasters cant deal lots of damage (flamestrike) or Teleport (Travel domain).

The Shugenja is a divine spellcaster from OA that deals almost exlusively in elemental magic including things like Fireball etc.

You can have Arcane, or Divine spellcasters of whatever type you want. there are no hard and fast rules saying arcane magic cant heal or divine magic cant nuke or teleport or whatever.

I admit it does say wizard/sorcerers shouldnt cast healing spells. And actually, the healing is the least important part of all this to me. But mainly its a legacy issue.

In the words of a poster on another board where I have this thread :Say there's 3 basic roles that magic fills -
Healing
Damage
Utility

Clerics get Excellent healing, Okay damage, and Decent utility.
Wizards get No healing, Excellent damage, excellent utility.

If a cleric can be excellent at healing, okay at everything else, wear plate armor, use okay weapons... why can't a Wizard be excellent at damage, excellent utility, poor healing but give up armor and weapons?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:02 PM	As I've brought up in the various class balance discussions going on, I dont feel that the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is really all it should be, mechanically or themeatically. Especially since Sorcerers and Wizards get nothing at all aside from their magic (and in the wizards case, bonus feats to enhance their magic). To help this, these are the spells I'd be likely to add to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list if I was running a basic DnD game. 0th level: Create Water, Purify Food and Drink 1st level: Command, Death Watch, Doom, Sanctuary 2nd level: Align Weapon, Augury, Death Knell, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Enthrall, Find Traps, Make Whole, Searing Light, Shield Of Faith, Shield Other, Silence 3rd level: Create Food and Water, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, Restoration, Lesser, Zone of Truth 4th level: Air Walk, Divination, Flame Strike (all fire), Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity 5th level: Command, Greater, Death Ward, Discern Lies, Spell Resistance 6th level: Animate Objects, Antilife Shell, Find the Path, Forbiddance, Glyph of Warding, Greater, Wind Walk 7th level: 8th level: Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Spell Immunity, Greater, Word of Chaos 9th level: Cloak of Chaos, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Storm of Vengeance, Unholy Aura Shield of Faith would have a difference name of course. Also, if it was really up to me, in my ideal world (aside from also doing away with the whole Arcane/Divine concept), I would give mages limited healing ability, as follows. 0th level: Cure Minor Wounds 2nd level: Cure Light Wounds 3rd level: Cure Moderate Wounds 4th level: Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, Slow Poison 5th level: Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Poison 6th: Cure Light Wounds, Mass, Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration 7th level: Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass 8th level: Cure Serious Wounds, Mass, Restoration, Greater 9th level: Cure Critical Wounds, Mass, Heal Now I realize that most are totaly against the idea of mages healing, which is why I didnt include it in the main body. But its a prejudice that makes no sense to me, so while I was at it I figured I'd include how I would go about doing that. I might would even slice off a few of the higher level ones entirely. Anyway, I just wanted to get peoples thoughts on the issue, and this aproach.
kedi 08-07-04, 03:13 PM	O boi. Current Wizard spell list is already too good compared to Cleric spell llist. If were to give these spells, Wizards would be invincible.
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:17 PM	Umm....Wizard spell list is too good compared to the Cleric? Wizards would be invincible? Care to try and back any of that up in any way? Its a pretty commonly held belief that, accept at very high level, the Sorcerer/Wizard list doesnt have a lot to offer. Especially since you can play a Cleric, get a lot of the same stuff, have total access to the whole spell list for free, and get to cast it all in plate mail with a d8 hit die, medium BAB and good Fort saves Besides which some of these things are as much thematic as anything. A wizard who spends his entire life studying magic cant cast Spell resistance or Spell Immunity? Does that make ANY sense?
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:22 PM	On second thought, dont try to back it up. I dont really want this to become just a second is the cleric to powerful thread. although a little more specfic criticism would be nice, and some reasons
MesaCraft 08-07-04, 03:23 PM	Clerics don't get Fireball, Disintegrate, Magic Missle, Baleful Polymorph, Teleport, and it goes on and on. Clerics don't get Wizard spells and Wizard's don't get heals and clericy spells....FOR A REASON. They are 2 seperate classes, that do 2 different things. Cleric spell list is fine, and Wizard Spell list is fine....you want both? Multiclass and become a Mystic Theurge.
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:29 PM	Again, some backup? reasons? I can understand the healing part, but the main part of my list doesnt include any healing. Why should awizard not have Spell resistance? Air Walk? Death Ward? And actually, Clerics can get Teleport, and Disitigrate. And Fireball isnt really that great a spell anyway. But this thread isnt about the Cleric list versus the Wizard list, its about wether the Wizard list is suffcient given that its all the wizard gets. Cleric spell list is fine, and Wizard Spell list is fine Most of the people on this board would disagree with one or both of those. A strong case can be made for the Cleric list including many things it shouldnt, and a similiar case for the Wizard list not really being strong enough given that a Wizard has no other class features. On what do you base your opnion? FOR A REASON. They are 2 seperate classes, that do 2 different things many different classes that do many different things get many of the same spells...and/or same types of spells. you want both? Nope. I want a Sorcerer/Wizard spell list that works mechanically and themeatically. that is strong enough to be the classes only feature, and that lives up to the fact that historically Mages have been THE "magic class".
kedi 08-07-04, 03:38 PM	...and that lives up to the fact that historically Mages have been THE "magic class". :uh-huh: Now, what are you talking about? Wizards are even can be the least MAGIC class historically. There are Witches, Druids (aka Shamans), Acolytes, there are very few WIZARD tales historically (only two I recall: Merlin and Wizard of Oz). Wizard class list is not intented to be as protective as cleric's. Wizards have tasty attack spells: Magic Missile. Fireball. Lightning Bolt. Disintegrate. Polymorph. Phantasmal Killer. Weird. And so on. This is a wizard vs cleric thread. Otherwise how can we discuss on the spell lists?
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:45 PM	Now, what are you talking about? Wizards are even can be the least MAGIC class historically. I meant historically in DnD. Till third edition Wizard was the only class that even got 9 levels of spells. And in fantasy history well...usualy theres not the whole silly arcane/divine thing but that aside wizards/sorcerers/mages/whatevers are generally the big-time users of magic as whole, as oposed to a certain area of magic. In DnD, they've been turned into mobile artilerly platforms. Wizard class list is not intented to be as protective as cleric's perhaps not, but does that mean that wizards have to suck at defense, especially against magic there area of lifelong study? (No Spell Resistance, no Spell Immunity). And while it does say that protection is one focus of the Cleric, no where does it say that means everyone else has to be inferior to them at it. Of course thats aside from the whole balance issues of Clerics getting to be powerful spellcasters and medium level warriors at the same time but I digress. This is a wizard vs cleric thread. Otherwise how can we discuss on the spell lists? Huh? Theres more than 2 spell lists in the game. And even if not, Cleric spell list versus Wizard spell list isnt the same thing as Wizard Versus cleric. this is about wether the Wizard spell list needs a boost, and opnions on my attempt at it. If you really believe the Wizard spell list is fine or even to powerful, its probably not the thread for you.
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:48 PM	Unless you want to discuss why you feel no changes need to be made to the wizard list. Not why its balanced against the clerics, or anyone elses...but why you feel its strong enough to be the classes sole class feature
Kursk 08-07-04, 03:49 PM	The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years. I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class. IMHO :ayyyy!:
Merlion 08-07-04, 03:57 PM	I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class. You've never seen any of the discussions of the Clerics unbalance or the rather blah nature of the Sor/Wiz spell list, especially prior to say 7th or 8th level spells? Also, what exactly defines "cleric type spells" How are Spell Resistance, Air Walk, Flame Strike, Wind Walk, Glyph of Warding, Searing Light, Create Food and Water, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, and even Zone of Truth, Discern Lies, Animate Objects, "Cleric type spells", to the point that no one else(or at least not mages) should have access to them? Wizards already do get a few of some of these types of spells...they have some defense especially at high levels...but why no Spell Resistance? And to me Flame Strike, Air Walk, Wind Walk, Searing Light all seem very wizard like...damage dealing, dealing with the elements. Glyph of Warding is just a basic magical concept. The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years. Not entirely true. Untill 3 or 4 years ago, only Wizards got spells above 7th level. And Clerics couldnt turn themselves into fighters, or gain acces to things like Teleport, Disintegrate, Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee etc via domains.
amoeba 08-07-04, 04:17 PM	Originally posted by Kursk The way the 2 spell types have been separated has worked pretty well for 25+ years. I haven't seen any convincing arguments (as play tested) during that time to heap cleric type spells onto the wizard class. IMHO :ayyyy!: actually, the 2 spell types have not been separated for 25+ years. You are correct that up until 3rd edition, its been separated, but since then, priests have been granted increasing access to arcane list.
quaiven 08-07-04, 04:27 PM	Well if the problem as you see it is that Clerics are overpowered, and wizard/sorcorers are underpowered, why not nerf the cleric instead of boosting the wizard/sorsorers?
Kerrexl 08-07-04, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Merlion Not entirely true. Untill 3 or 4 years ago, only Wizards got spells above 7th level. Which is not entirely true, since '91 until 2000 there have been 8 levels of cleric spells.. 1-7 + Quest... but never mind that. Besides alot of 7th level 2e Cleric spells, were as powerfull as Wizard 9th... Need I say Gate and Succor and Symbol was a cleric 7, wiz 8... And there are many more examples... so now, the clerics in 2e didn't have less power, their spells where just crammed into 7 levels insted of 9.... but back to your list... 8th level: Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos These Word's of alignment, is IMO more base on the power of the dietry, to force planar beings to supper the wraith from an opposite "homeplane" creatures might... and are more a cleric way, where wizards treat creatures of different allignment more of the same - who care if your familiar is an imp or a cat og some celestrial... it is a magic being under your control... where as you wouldn't se a paladin riding a nightmare... The religious classes are more focused on the Alignment of creatures then wizards- IMO. And regarding "Spell Immunity"-similar spells... these spells have been researched in different variant for those wizard who have needed them... (Elminster has a version... :)) Though glyph of warding - I could accept that.... :)
Blakk_Magemaster 08-07-04, 06:24 PM	You want to know why wizards don't get spell resistance. Think of it like this. You have two fighters with really high AC. what happens? They don't hit! They keep attacking and no one gets hit. Even worse, you have one with high AC and he hits everyone while no noe hits him. That's the reason. You give wizards the ability to block spells even remotly, and you have a problem. Now, I can't see what's wrong with the wiz/sor spell list. Granted I see a problem with how the arcane classes are constructed but that's another story. Now, you keep telling everyine to "back themselves" and I haven't seen any from you. Why is it you see the wizard/sorcerer as so week? And this is going to end up a "wiz spell list vs another" because you can't say one spell list is weak without comparing it to another.That would probably get some better responces if people can see where you're coming from.
Merlion 08-07-04, 06:32 PM	You give wizards the ability to block spells even remotly, and you have a problem. ....but giving it to Clerics is ok on that basis? Now, I can't see what's wrong with the wiz/sor spell list. Granted I see a problem with how the arcane classes are constructed but that's another story. Now, you keep telling everyine to "back themselves" and I haven't seen any from you. Why is it you see the wizard/sorcerer as so week? That would probably get some better responces if people can see where you're coming from. Look at it this way. Wizards(and sorcerers) have nothing accept magic. No combat ability. Lowest hit points in the game, no armor, no weapons, worst BAB, one good save, and no class features. Magic is all they have. Just as armed combat is all the fighter has. So just as the fighter is the best at armed combat overall, the mages should be the best at magic overall. As it stands, Wizards/Sorcerers are really good at damage and offense, and deccent at utility, and thats about it especially prior to very high level. I dont feel that there spell list is extensive or strong enough to be their one and only real class feature. Themeatically, I also feel that the Wizard/Sorcerer archtype is that of the Master of Magic, not as the nuker/teleporter. They should be at least passingly familiar with pretty much all types of magic, and at least average with most. As it is, there only really good at a couple things (damage, certain forms of utility) and are completely barred from at least 2 (healing/reparing, alignment) These Word's of alignment, is IMO more base on the power of the dietry, to force planar beings to supper the wraith from an opposite "homeplane" creatures might... and are more a cleric way, where wizards treat creatures of different allignment more of the same - who care if your familiar is an imp or a cat og some celestrial... it is a magic being under your control... where as you wouldn't se a paladin riding a nightmare... The religious classes are more focused on the Alignment of creatures then wizards- IMO. Alignment and religion arent mutually exclusive. I've never understood why good and evil magic is only avaible to priests. Why cant a good wizard (or an evil one) call upon the force of good or evil? Well if the problem as you see it is that Clerics are overpowered, and wizard/sorcorers are underpowered, why not nerf the cleric instead of boosting the wizard/sorsorers? Because even if the Cleric were brought down and made balanced, the wizard list would still be to sparse to be their only class feature, besides the thematic issues. Its not just about Cleric VS Wizard its about Wizard viability
Blakk_Magemaster 08-07-04, 06:47 PM	You just said what I just touched on. The problem isn't the spell list but how the arcane classes were designed to begin with. ALL they get is magic. That's all they're good at and that's the problem with the class. There is no support. And what you said about fighters being the best armed combat overall is exactly why it doesn't balance well against the other classes. Versatility is what is needed in D&D. ....but giving it to Clerics is ok on that basis? If you read the example I gave about the fighters and AC, you would understand. You should not give arcane spellcasters divine healing. That's just wrong. You say that wiz/sor should be the "masters of magic" Arcane magic, not divine concidering that the two are differant types of magic, one the wiz can't cast.
Merlion 08-07-04, 07:00 PM	The problem isn't the spell list but how the arcane classes were designed to begin with. ALL they get is magic Umm......what else is a class thats called Wizard, or Sorcerer, likely to have besides magic? If you read the example I gave about the fighters and AC, you would understand. read it. Still dont get why its ok for the Cleric and not the Wizard. You should not give arcane spellcasters divine healing You dont need to worry about that since it is impossible to give arcane spellcasters divine anything. Wether a spell is arcane or divine is determined by the caster, not the spell. You say that wiz/sor should be the "masters of magic" Arcane magic,concidering that the two are differant types of magic, one the wiz can't cast You dont seem to understand how the Arcane/Divine concept works (although it is very badly done which is another reason it should simply be removed). By the rules, magic is pretty much magic. There are guidlines and suggestions as to what arcane and divine magic each lean toward, but thats it. The only actual hard and fast differences between them in the rules are: The casting stat, wether or not the caster suffers spell failure in armor, and where the power comes from. There is nothing that says an arcane spellcaster cant heal (see the Bard spell list). Nor is there anything that says Divine spellcasters cant deal lots of damage (flamestrike) or Teleport (Travel domain). The Shugenja is a divine spellcaster from OA that deals almost exlusively in elemental magic including things like Fireball etc. You can have Arcane, or Divine spellcasters of whatever type you want. there are no hard and fast rules saying arcane magic cant heal or divine magic cant nuke or teleport or whatever. I admit it does say wizard/sorcerers shouldnt cast healing spells. And actually, the healing is the least important part of all this to me. But mainly its a legacy issue. In the words of a poster on another board where I have this thread :Say there's 3 basic roles that magic fills - Healing Damage Utility Clerics get Excellent healing, Okay damage, and Decent utility. Wizards get No healing, Excellent damage, excellent utility. If a cleric can be excellent at healing, okay at everything else, wear plate armor, use okay weapons... why can't a Wizard be excellent at damage, excellent utility, poor healing but give up armor and weapons?