Post/Author/DateTime	Post
willpower 02-27-07, 06:04 PM	Hey guys, I have been toying with the idea of making a class similar to the Adept from the Shadowrun RPG. The idea behind it is that this class is very similar to the Sorcorer, but instead of inherently being able to channel magic, their magic is more internal. Where it is described that the Sorcorer would have unusual occurences happen around him or her while growing up, this character would be the unusual occurence him or herself. He or she could be much stronger than normal at appropriate times, or quicker, or maybe be able to leap up to the roof of a house if being chased, whatever. I am already in the works of creating this class, and have gotten to creating the abilities they can choose, but was wondering if anyone else had worked on anything like this? I am building the abilities they can choose in levels, that they can purchase at creation, and later increase at level changes. It is coming along very intuitively so far, except how to limit the level improvements. I want to be able to allow people to purchase multiple levels of some abilities at 1st level, but don't want them to be able to max most levels at 1st level. I also don't want them to be able to improve things so fast that they become unbalanced. So the one problem I am having is limiting the number of levels that can be purchased in particular abilities. I was thinking of limiting it to 1/2 class level + 1 rounded up, though depending on how particular abilities work even that can be really high at times, and not high enough at the beginning sometimes. I think I can figure it out on my own, but if anyon had thoughts on this that would be greatly appreciated.
plasword 02-27-07, 06:35 PM	Hey guys, I have been toying with the idea of making a class similar to the Adept from the Shadowrun RPG. The idea behind it is that this class is very similar to the Sorcorer, but instead of inherently being able to channel magic, their magic is more internal. Where it is described that the Sorcorer would have unusual occurences happen around him or her while growing up, this character would be the unusual occurence him or herself. He or she could be much stronger than normal at appropriate times, or quicker, or maybe be able to leap up to the roof of a house if being chased, whatever. I am already in the works of creating this class, and have gotten to creating the abilities they can choose, but was wondering if anyone else had worked on anything like this? I am building the abilities they can choose in levels, that they can purchase at creation, and later increase at level changes. It is coming along very intuitively so far, except how to limit the level improvements. I want to be able to allow people to purchase multiple levels of some abilities at 1st level, but don't want them to be able to max most levels at 1st level. I also don't want them to be able to improve things so fast that they become unbalanced. So the one problem I am having is limiting the number of levels that can be purchased in particular abilities. I was thinking of limiting it to 1/2 class level + 1 rounded up, though depending on how particular abilities work even that can be really high at times, and not high enough at the beginning sometimes. I think I can figure it out on my own, but if anyon had thoughts on this that would be greatly appreciated. Since you want it to be internal try using int+con divide by 2 and the result could be magic points per level. If these points are exceeded the character loses 1 con point/spell beyond the required spell points.
Tempest Stormwind 02-27-07, 09:40 PM	Please tell me why the psychic warrior (a class that is exactly the same concept) won't do the job.
willpower 02-28-07, 12:22 PM	Please tell me why the psychic warrior (a class that is exactly the same concept) won't do the job. I'll do better, I'll give you three. First, most people hate psionics. Second, I am creating my own world, and am creating some of my own classes, and such to fill it with, which is why I said it is vaguely similar to the the Adept in concept. It is more of a warrior based sorcorer concept. Concentrating on mystic abilities to help them fight, not abilities that are similar to spells. Third, from what I know of Psionic Warriors, they are simply sort of a fighter gish, but with psionics instead of magic. Psionics just seems like a different type of magic. Since as I said their abilities are internal, rather than external, psionic warrior wouldn't seem to work. I don't want a warrior that can do similar things that a sorcorer can do, or a psion. Instead of doing things like throwing magic missiles at people, or engaging in mental combat with them. The class I am trying to build fights with hands or weapons, and uses his abilities to help with that. He either buffs himself up temorarily, or more minorly is buffed up permanently. In any case, most of his abilities would be more subtle. People would not see them, but will see their affects. Like when they bust through a steel door with bare hands, or leap a 50 foot chasm. After I have a chance to post what I have you will see the difference.
Tempest Stormwind 02-28-07, 12:58 PM	I'll do better, I'll give you three.And for the sake of discussion, I'll provide rebuttals.First, most people hate psionics.This claim needs proof. Furthermore, the reasons for the hate of psionics all boil down to one of two reasons: Bad impressions with psionics in earlier editions, and flavor concerns. The former is irrelevant by its very nature (it's not like you can claim fighters have good saves in this edition, for instance). The latter is often made by hippocrites: If these people have ever said anything like "I'm using a katana, but mechanically it's a bastard sword" or "I'm playing a paladin, but call me a samurai", they have just changed the flavor of the rules to fit their character, which is dead easy to do with psionics as well.Second, I am creating my own world, and am creating some of my own classes, and such to fill it with, which is why I said it is vaguely similar to the the Adept in concept. It is more of a warrior based sorcorer concept. Concentrating on mystic abilities to help them fight, not abilities that are similar to spells.And the psychic warrior power list is based almost exclusively on making them better fighters. They might use a power to thicken their skin (Thicken Skin), or another to catch glimpses of the future to better guide their swords or evade attacks (Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition), accelerate their movement (Hustle), heighten their muscular ability (Animal Affinity, Adrenaline Boost), or grow claws or similar natural weaponry in the absence of gear to take the fight to the opponent (Claws of the Beast, Bite of the Wolf, Form of Doom). A single psychic warrior only has 20 powers and the list is rather large -- it's easy to build an effective AND themed character from that list.Third, from what I know of Psionic Warriors, they are simply sort of a fighter gish, but with psionics instead of magic. Psionics just seems like a different type of magic. Since as I said their abilities are internal, rather than external, psionic warrior wouldn't seem to work. I don't want a warrior that can do similar things that a sorcorer can do, or a psion. Instead of doing things like throwing magic missiles at people, or engaging in mental combat with them. The class I am trying to build fights with hands or weapons, and uses his abilities to help with that. He either buffs himself up temorarily, or more minorly is buffed up permanently. In any case, most of his abilities would be more subtle. People would not see them, but will see their affects. Like when they bust through a steel door with bare hands, or leap a 50 foot chasm.This shows how little you know about psionics. They're not magic, and they often are invisible. A psychic warrior does not blast. He buffs. His buffs are almost always subtle in their nature. Psionics, by their very definition, are internal. It's MIND over matter. The power is entirely drawn from the character himself, wellsprings of internal energy. Some describe it as lucid dreaming, others as utter madness, still others as sheer force of will, and a few even describe it in terms of X-men-esque mutations. The vast majority appear to coincide with the adept as you've described it. A psychic warrior cannot engage in mental combat (none of his powers are mind-affecting). A psychic warrior cannot throw magic missiles (the closest he gets would be his weapon buffs which add energy to weapons, or Breath of the Black Dragon, which very few psychic warriors take). Instead, they fight with their weapons (some transform their bodies into weapons if they have none), and do a very good job of pushing their bodies beyond normal limits through internal powers. A few of their powers may be too "magic" for you (Dimension Slide, for instance -- short range, line-of-sight teleportation), but the list is big enough that you can avoid those when building an adept. Oh, and as for invisibility? All powers have a display, but that display is almost trivially easy to hide or easy to incorporate into the power's description.After I have a chance to post what I have you will see the difference.I'm still not seeing it. I suspect that after you read about psionics, you will see there isn't a need for this class either.
willpower 02-28-07, 08:20 PM	You are right about one thing, I do not know that much about psionics. I do know, what I have read on them though, particularly the Psionic warrior, and he does, not get enough of what I want, for the class that I am looking at creating. So no, Psionic Warrior does not work. The part I do not know much about for psionics is the psionics abilities themselves. I do know they are invisible in general. I also do not like the psionic crystals portion of the rules. I am building this world with another person, and we both looked over the Psionic rules enough to know we did not want to use them. We talked about calling it magic instead, but the rules for it, itself, makes it too difficult to simply call it magic without changing a lot of the rules. For instance Dispel magic does not work (as far as I know, other do admittedly know better the portions of the rules I am not interested in, like psionics) on psionics. Also creating magic items work differently. We were not looking at replacing magic with psionics, the abilities I am looing to give this character are magic, not psionics, and should go hand in hand with magic, even though they are not spells. Psionics doesn't do that. As far as requiring proof that a lot of people hate psionics, you are wrong in that assumption. I asked if anyone had any ideas, or experience attempting to create a class like this. I did not invite a debate on the psionic warrior. If that is what you want to do, start your own thread. I am not using the psionic warrior, for what I want that is the end of that. Below, I will provide some specific things I am looking at for this class. Some of which the Psionic Warrior may be able to do, but definitely not all, and that is why the psionic warrior falls short. Add to his strength with a temporary burst, Add a lesser amount to his strength permanently, Add to his dexterity with a temporary burst, Add a lesser amount to his dexterity permanently, Add to his constitution with a temporary burst, Add a lesser amount to his constitution permanently, see the invisible, leap incredible distances, climb up a wall like a spider, do lethal damage with his bare hands and add to the damage dealt, deflect arrows with his bare hands or with a weapon, absorb certain spell damage to increase a statistic, heal himself, see in the dark, free himself from physical and magical bonds, etc.
Tempest Stormwind 02-28-07, 08:59 PM	Fair enough. But I'd like to address a few of your points.I also do not like the psionic crystals portion of the rules.They only show up in psionic items, and are just as easily changable as anything else. In my current game, arcane-built items are instantly recognizable by the presence of glyphs, and divine magic items by the presence of the holy symbol of the religion that made it. I am building this world with another person, and we both looked over the Psionic rules enough to know we did not want to use them. We talked about calling it magic instead, but the rules for it, itself, makes it too difficult to simply call it magic without changing a lot of the rules. For instance Dispel magic does not work (as far as I know, other do admittedly know better the portions of the rules I am not interested in, like psionics) on psionics.Apparently, you didn't notice the BIG section called Psionics-Magic Transparency. Spells and similar effects that could work on psionics do so. Dispel Magic removes psionic powers. Energy Ray is subject to spell resistance. An antimagic field shuts down both. And so on and so forth. The SRD link is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsion icAndMagicalEffects). I already mentioned the FAQ in my sig, which also summarizes this. It also links to the New DM/Player's Guide, which does so more colloquially.Also creating magic items work differently.No, it's EXACTLY the same. You get the feat, use the powers to craft the item, and spend the raw materials and XP in exactly the same fashion as mages. The difference is they use a different feat. We were not looking at replacing magic with psionics, the abilities I am looing to give this character are magic, not psionics, and should go hand in hand with magic, even though they are not spells. Psionics doesn't do that.Actually, they do. Powers are magical, but are not spells.As far as requiring proof that a lot of people hate psionics, you are wrong in that assumption.You made a statistical claim with no statistics to back it up. This begs proof. It's not because of the subject matter that I asked about it; it's because of good debate technique. I agree, though, it's off-topic and I'll drop it. Now, let's deal with the list of things you want him to do, and I'll show you how 80% of them can be done with the psychic warrior. The conclusion here is that a small addition to the psychic warrior -- either through a PrC or the development of new PsyWar powers -- can get exactly what you want. Add to his strength/dexterity/constitution with a temporary burstAnimal Affinity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/animalAffinity.htm) or a smack of lots of other powers do this precisely.Add a lesser amount to his strength/dexterity/constitution permanentlyThis is somewhat problematic to pull off, but it's problematic in magic as well. It isn't impossible.see the invisibleSynesthete (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm) and Psionic Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicScent.htm) covers that, as does taking Expanded Knowledge to pick up See Invisibility, Psionic (from Complete Psionic) or Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm). You've got enough bonus feats to pull this off.leap incredible distancesMighty Spring, a psychic warrior power in Complete Psionic, grants a giant bonus on Jump checks. This is then boosted further through feats, like Mental Leap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mentalLeap) or Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought) (in the case of the latter, a boosted speed improves your Jump checks). climb up a wall like a spiderThe Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) feat, the Wall Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/wallWalker.htm) power, and the Urban Strider power (CPsi) do just that.do lethal damage with his bare hands and add to the damage dealt,They get bonus feats for things like fighter bonus feats; taking Improved Unarmed Strike handles the first part. As for the latter part, the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicFist) feat and its greater cousin, or the various damage-increasing powers (such as Weapon of Energy or Dissolving Weapon) can boost the damage on the unarmed strike pretty high as well. You have enough room as well for Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) if you want to deal even more damage (almost monk-like).deflect arrows with his bare hands or with a weapon,Return Shot. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#returnShot) Or Deflect Arrows, really. They can be done with weapons, although they do say you need a hand free. With a touch of description, the Force Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm) power can do the job as well. absorb certain spell damage to increase a statistic,This is one area that's a bit difficult to replicate ANYWHERE without creative licence, but I don't see it being a problem to make a psywar power that did this. There's already Psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm) and Energy Conversion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyConversion.htm), plus Strength of My Enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthOfMyEnemy.htm). They all fall in the same general line of draining effects to boost some other effect -- one that absorbed certain energy damage and converted it into a boost to a physical attribute would be a fun one to write.heal himselfBody Adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm), Vampiric Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vampiricBlade.htm), Hostile Empathic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) all do this in different ways. This is an area the psychic warrior does pretty well.see in the darkPsionic Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm), the afforementioned Synesthete and Touchsight powers, and Elfsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/elfsight.htm) if you want it from lower levels.free himself from physical and magical bondsPsionic Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/freedomofMovementPsionic.htm) plus, if you feel it's necessary, Dimension Slide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionSlide.htm) for heavier bonds or bonds you weren't ready for. Note that ALL of those powers I mentioned (except Energy Conversion and Touchsight, both of which were merely examples of other effects in psionics) are on the psychic warrior power list. In short, the vast majority of things you wanted already exist in the psychic warrior. The flavor doesn't even conflict. It seems easier then to alter the psychic warrior into an adept by writing about two powers (or a power and a feat) than writing an entire new class, no? The only things that current material weren't able to solve exactly were the permanent increase to certain scores (note that you do this every 4 levels anyway) and the absorption effect. The former is something that'd have to be handled VERY carefully in D&D mechanics, but could nonetheless be pulled off. A Wish spell, for instance, does just that -- a small boost to one ability score equals one wish. And Wish is a 9th level effect with an XP cost and a lot of stigma. Hence my concern. The latter doesn't exist ANYWHERE in D&D mechanics, but would make a very interesting power design similar to Strength of My Enemy. I'm a published author for the psionics ruleset; I could easily come up with one in my spare time that'd get the job done. Before claiming something doesn't fit, at least know what shape that something is.
Grey_Mage 02-28-07, 09:27 PM	*nods* You come and ask for help, dont scream at him cause he pointed out something you missed. Try a real reading of the psionics book before you jump all over someone. As for permanent ability score increases... What would you do for a trade off? Stats are a pretty important thing in D20 systems... they are in fact, the very basis of your characters mathmatical life. So... in return for this increased power what do we do? XP? Its a possibility, but Ive seen a good deal of math done with wizards that show merely by keeping yourself a level behind the rest of the party you can gain more than enough xp to craft indefinitly and still be rather effective. Id be leery about an XP trade off... even though it seems to fit best for permanent increases. Money? Maybe... but it doesnt seem very flavorful. After all this in an internal thing... so wouldnt it be a bit better to make it come from an internal source? Spell slots/Power points. Now this seems a little more viable... Either permanently reduce your number of bonus spells as if your ability score for spellcasting was 2 lower, or alternatively lower your number of bonus power points as if you were a level lower in your manifesting class or two points lower in your manifesting stat in return for a one or two stat increase to another stat. This seems a bit harsh though.... *spreads hands* Just a few ideas to throw out there. You could even make that ability require a feat.... or have the ability be a class ability, but a feat to lower the severity of it a little? Im not sure.
hiryuu 02-28-07, 10:31 PM	Since the Adept in Shadowrun is just like buying Cyberware, only getting screwed up the rear, I'd suggest picking up d20 Cyberscape (it's a d20 Modern product) for the Cyberwarrior class and using that as something to reverse engineer, and explain the "growth" of cyberware instead as a manifestation of magical powers.
willpower 03-01-07, 02:39 AM	*nods* You come and ask for help, dont scream at him cause he pointed out something you missed. Try a real reading of the psionics book before you jump all over someone. I didn't really come here asking for help. I did ask for help with one minor problem I was having, but what he brought up had nothing to do with that. Also, I did not scream at him, I simply mentioned that the Psionic Warrior was looked at and dismissed, and then asked him not to hijack the thread. He agreed that what he kept talking about was off topic, and agreed to drop it. Also, I'll say it again, the Psionic Warrior doesn't really fit. Even the abilities he mentions that can be mimiced with the PW doesn't do an adequate job, as this type of character basically purchases permanent abilities in general. They are not all permanent, but a good portion either are, or can be. If you are going to respond to a thread that "asks for help" in partially mimicking another class, then instead of trying to say that another class already is exactly the same, maybe you should know at least something of the character type in question. I mention character type, cause Shadowrun did not have classes in the same exact sense of the word. And no I am not asking you to go out and research this for me, I am simply saying if you don't know what I am referring to in the first place, then maybe this isn't a discussion you should join. There are plenty of others. But no, everyone has to go places and try and cause an arguement. The big reason, I actually posted this was to see if anyone else had tried converting this class and to see if theirs was the same or similar to mine. In a lot of ways I see this classes abilities that are not permanent as working the way a Warlock's does. To adress a couple other points brought up, thereare other classes that give ability score increases as well, so this is nothing new. Also, as for the Absorption ability being new, and not existing ANYWHERE in D&D before... So, plenty of classes and PRC's introduce things never done before in D&D. Afterward they were done before, so this also is nothing new. And finally, even IF another class could fit most of the bill for creating this one, that doesn't mean it would fit the bill enough, or that it couldn't be built better. This also is nothing new as many classes out there do things that can be done with other existing classes. (How many times have people tried to rebuild fighter?)
Tempest Stormwind 03-01-07, 09:25 AM	There are only two cases where an ability score is increased permanently as a class feature. One is the War Hulk PrC, which has no base attack progression and requires a Large size to enter. The other would be the Unearthed Arcana paragon classes, which are three levels long and racially limited. The only other permanent-ability-score booster is friggin' WISH, hence why I was concerned. In the case of an absorption effect, I maintain that it can fit within a power's scope without too much of a problem. It would also work as a class ability, yes, but as a power it can be added to a psychic warrior without an issue. While I myself have not played Shadowrun, I have spoken with two of my friends who do. Both agree -- an adept is a psychic warrior in D&D. I apologize for derailing the thread. I just find it odd that, after having presented your case both fluff and mechanical, and after having demonstrated that the psychic warrior essentially matches both of them, you continue to insist that it won't fit and therefore we should build a new class. It sounds to me like you're letting your obvious dislike for psionics (which is odd, given your appreciation for Shadowrun, and how psionics are used in 3.5) cloud your judgement. I tend to go on tirades when people think "OMFG NOTHING FITS LIKE A TAILORED GLOVE THEREFORE WE NEED A NEW CLASS NOW" instead of looking at what the game can already do. The worst offenders are all those FF Dragoon classes -- completely neglecting that such a character can be done in the rules already, and has been able to be done in the rules since Complete Adventurer. Here, there's a similar character, and nearly all of it could have been done since 2004 (with a couple new things from a bad book from 2006). (For the record, what I said was off-topic was the demand for statistics, not the psychic warrior.)
Milo HoBo 03-01-07, 11:46 PM	Another PrC that provides permanent ability boosts would be Dragon Disciple, but it is otherwise a very unattractive PrC. Having played Shadowrun 4ed and understanding Psionics rather well, I have to agree with Tempest. Shadowrun magic is rather subtle, and Psionics fits that bill perfectly, expecially the Psychic Warrior. I'm sure that there could be some way to sort-of acheive the permanent ability score boost. I think that Hyperconscious has the Psionic equivelent of Persistant Spell metamagic feat. If so, it would basically be something like that every morning mixed with the stat increase of your choice. Watch out for dispells. Good gaming.