Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaerom Darkwind 05-17-04, 10:15 PM	Okay, this is not really an alternate sorcerer thread. It's not intended to fix the "PrC Problem" (not really—I'll get to that in a minute), or anything of the sort. It's just an idea I had about how to bring non-spontaneous casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc) down a notch while boosting Sorcerers to their level. It has to do with Metamagic. Part I: My Idea Yes, metamagic—the bane of sorcerers, the most sensless of all the sensless restrictions placed on sorcerers. The official position on metamagic is that sorcerers, due to the fact that they apply metamagic as they cast spells, have a harder time casting these spells and take longer. Thus making metamagic very inconvenient and completely barring sorcerers from ever being able to use Quicken Spell. In contrast, casters who prepare spells in advance can apply the metamagic beforehand and cast these spells normally. Most people agree that casters that prepare spells are more powerful than the Srocerer (I'm not saying that the Sor is underpowered, mind you—just that it's less powerful than the cleric et al). So why not turn the metamagic tables on them? Make spells prepared with metamagic take the full-round action, while spells cast spontaneously can be metamagicked, well, spontaneously. The rationale? What if we see metamagic as an add-on to a spell? When a wizard prepares a spell, she must pile the metamagic onto the base spell, and therefore gets something more complex, that requires more time to cast. A sorcerer, on the other hand, can reform the spell in her mind as she casts it—instead of being a spell with an "add-on," for her it's still just a spell—in modified form. No harder to cast than any other spell. No increased casting time. Overpowered? I think not. Metamagic feats are (theoretically) balanced for the level increases they have. It would merely be lke giving a sorcerer a few extra spells known-- which most people do anyway in their sorcerer revisions. Since most people believe that even with the increased casting time, MM feats are worth the effort, this will provide only a small boost. The only real difference would be Quicken Spell, which sorcerers could now use and other spellcasters couldn't (unless one house-rules the feat like so many do with respect to sorcerers). But I think that the balance in Quicken Spell comes in the fact that it increases a spell by 4 levels, and that no further balancing would be needed. But, to avoid Sage-like bias, we’ll still allow casters who prepare spells to use Metamagic Feat Rods without increasing the casting time—including Quicken Spell. So a wizard could still quicken her spells, and spontaneously—but only a certain number of times per day, and only if she shells out the cash for the items. Part II: Class Changes Okay, this has the added benefit of differentiating the two arcane classes (Wizard and Sorcerer). Both classes now have different ways of mastering magic. A wizard does so through study and learning, learning new ways to create and apply magic, and thus takes on the role of master item-creator. A sorcerer does so by reaching a deeper understanding of the nature of magic itself, learning new ways to form and manipulate raw arcane energy, and thus takes on the role of master of metamagic. To crystalize this distinction, wizard bonus spells should be limited to Item Creation feats and “spellcaster” feats like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. Sorcerers should then be given similar bonus feats every 5 levels (this would in some small way affect the afore-mentioned “PrC Problem,” by giving the sorcerer the same benefit at higher levels that wizards get—not much, but better than nothing), limited to Metamagic feats and “spellcaster spells.” Opposite the wizard bonus feat at level 1 (Scribe Scroll), sorcerers would recieve Eschew Materials (from what I’ve read, a lot of people already do this), which, though not a MM feat anymore, still has MM flavor. Enough people advocate the sorcerer’s spellcasting progression being better than a wizard’s, and vice versa, that I believe them to be roughly equal in power. And with these changes the other class features of the twin classes will also be on equal footing. The only real difference, then, would be the wizard’s ability to specialize, which makes sense for them, and not for the sorcerer (a master of the fundamentals of magic can’t go excluding herself from large ares of it). Part III: Other Issues Now then, if we take these new definitions of the classes further, we can resolve other problems in the rules. Epic Level Handbook: It would now make sense to have sorcerers develop epic spells, not by research, like the studious wizard, but rather by mastering epic arcana one seed at a time. I’d advocate the creation of a seperate epic spellcasting feat for spontaneous casters, which allows them to select a spcific seed to master each time they take the feat, which they can manipulate and combine as they see fit spontaneously (a PC would need to prepare all spells she can forsee needing beforehand to avoid making the game drag as she tries to work them out on the fly, obviously). Deities and Demigods: I’m going to be posting new Salient Divine Abilities for sorcerers based on this concept on the relevant boards soon (and will update this post with a link when I do), but for now, possible SDA ideas would be - Metamagic Mastery: The deity gains access to all metamagic feats, including epic metamagic feats, and may create new metamagic feats as needed. Requires any 5 MM feats and at least 1 sorcerer level. This SDA would serve as the resonse to a wizard’s Arcane Mastery. - Greater Automatic Metamagic: Can apply any one metamagic feat the deity has to a spell as per the AMM SDA. Can apply one additional MM feat for each time the ability is chosen. Requires CL 1 in a spontaneous spellcasting class and Automatic Metamagic. This SDA would serve as the response to a wizard’s Spontaneous Wizard Spells. Anyway, that’s all for now, I haven’t really given this too much thought, but it seems that this simple change (switching the metamagic weakness to the prepared casters), with all its repurcussions, could solve a lot of the problems we tend to associate with the various spellcasting classes, whilst giving sorcerers a flavor that is uniquely theirs. Opinions?
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-17-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by Jaerom Darkwind Okay, this is not really an alternate sorcerer thread. It's not intended to fix the "PrC Problem" (not really—I'll get to that in a minute), or anything of the sort. It's just an idea I had about how to bring non-spontaneous casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc) down a notch while boosting Sorcerers to their level. It has to do with Metamagic. the problem with PrC'ing out ASAP seems to be true with all the core spellcasting classes, except the druid. The problem is a lack of class features, which can be easily remedied. Sczatany or whtever his name is did a decent job at fixing that to a certain degree. In fact, I think that was the underlying premise for making those classes as they were. Part I: My Idea Yes, metamagic—the bane of sorcerers, the most sensless of all the sensless restrictions placed on sorcerers. The official position on metamagic is that sorcerers, due to the fact that they apply metamagic as they cast spells, have a harder time casting these spells and take longer. Thus making metamagic very inconvenient and completely barring sorcerers from ever being able to use Quicken Spell. In contrast, casters who prepare spells in advance can apply the metamagic beforehand and cast these spells normally. I think you've overstated this problem drastically. a sorcerer can get two spells off in one round using a variety of methods: Twin Spell Repeat Spell (though technically, this would be the *next* round, but it is still 2 in one round. 3 if the sorcerer uses a quickened spell using the method immediately after this one...) arcane preparation + quicken spell contingency chain contingency craft contingent spell any of the simbul's sequencer/spell matrix/whatever spells using one of the cheesy alter self/shapechange into a choker/chronotyn (or whatever) and essentially get another round's worth of actions. Most people agree that casters that prepare spells are more powerful than the Srocerer (I'm not saying that the Sor is underpowered, mind you—just that it's less powerful than the cleric et al). So why not turn the metamagic tables on them? Make spells prepared with metamagic take the full-round action, while spells cast spontaneously can be metamagicked, well, spontaneously. The rationale? What if we see metamagic as an add-on to a spell? When a wizard prepares a spell, she must pile the metamagic onto the base spell, and therefore gets something more complex, that requires more time to cast. A sorcerer, on the other hand, can reform the spell in her mind as she casts it—instead of being a spell with an "add-on," for her it's still just a spell—in modified form. No harder to cast than any other spell. No increased casting time. perhaps, but any effect that requires a massive change to an entire method in which spells are cast. requiring a rewrite to basic rules to fix a class is overkill and cannot succeed. Keep this in mind: changing a class to make its flaws as a class go away requires roughly a few pages of rewritten material. perhaps a FAQ or Erratta. Changing the rules of metamagic would require a new edition of D&D. Overpowered? I think not. Metamagic feats are (theoretically) balanced for the level increases they have. It would merely be lke giving a sorcerer a few extra spells known-- which most people do anyway in their sorcerer revisions. Since most people believe that even with the increased casting time, MM feats are worth the effort, this will provide only a small boost. The only real difference would be Quicken Spell, which sorcerers could now use and other spellcasters couldn't (unless one house-rules the feat like so many do with respect to sorcerers). But I think that the balance in Quicken Spell comes in the fact that it increases a spell by 4 levels, and that no further balancing would be needed. But, to avoid Sage-like bias, we’ll still allow casters who prepare spells to use Metamagic Feat Rods without increasing the casting time—including Quicken Spell. So a wizard could still quicken her spells, and spontaneously—but only a certain number of times per day, and only if she shells out the cash for the items. arcane preparation does all that with just one feat. a human sorcerer could achieve this easily. even gaining all the advantages that a wizard has with those rods. Part II: Class Changes Okay, this has the added benefit of differentiating the two arcane classes (Wizard and Sorcerer). Both classes now have different ways of mastering magic. A wizard does so through study and learning, learning new ways to create and apply magic, and thus takes on the role of master item-creator. A sorcerer does so by reaching a deeper understanding of the nature of magic itself, learning new ways to form and manipulate raw arcane energy, and thus takes on the role of master of metamagic. the sorcerer and wizard's ability or inability to effectively use metamagic is an indirect consequence of their methods of spellcasting. In any case, neither is truely master over the other reguarding metamagic, though the sorcerer is better only because they can spontaneously apply those feats to their spells at their choosing. But wizards can cast them more efficently and they can quicken. so neither really has a significant advantage over the other, short of a prestige class in order to achieve the goal of being better at Metamagic. To crystalize this distinction, wizard bonus spells should be limited to Item Creation feats and “spellcaster” feats like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, etc. Sorcerers should then be given similar bonus feats every 5 levels (this would in some small way affect the afore-mentioned “PrC Problem,” by giving the sorcerer the same benefit at higher levels that wizards get—not much, but better than nothing), limited to Metamagic feats and “spellcaster spells.” Opposite the wizard bonus feat at level 1 (Scribe Scroll), sorcerers would recieve Eschew Materials (from what I’ve read, a lot of people already do this), which, though not a MM feat anymore, still has MM flavor. Enough people advocate the sorcerer’s spellcasting progression being better than a wizard’s, and vice versa, that I believe them to be roughly equal in power. And with these changes the other class features of the twin classes will also be on equal footing. The only real difference, then, would be the wizard’s ability to specialize, which makes sense for them, and not for the sorcerer (a master of the fundamentals of magic can’t go excluding herself from large ares of it). Part III: Other Issues Now then, if we take these new definitions of the classes further, we can resolve other problems in the rules. Epic Level Handbook: It would now make sense to have sorcerers develop epic spells, not by research, like the studious wizard, but rather by mastering epic arcana one seed at a time. I’d advocate the creation of a seperate epic spellcasting feat for spontaneous casters, which allows them to select a spcific seed to master each time they take the feat, which they can manipulate and combine as they see fit spontaneously (a PC would need to prepare all spells she can forsee needing beforehand to avoid making the game drag as she tries to work them out on the fly, obviously). Deities and Demigods: I’m going to be posting new Salient Divine Abilities for sorcerers based on this concept on the relevant boards soon (and will update this post with a link when I do), but for now, possible SDA ideas would be - Metamagic Mastery: The deity gains access to all metamagic feats, including epic metamagic feats, and may create new metamagic feats as needed. Requires any 5 MM feats and at least 1 sorcerer level. This SDA would serve as the resonse to a wizard’s Arcane Mastery. - Greater Automatic Metamagic: Can apply any one metamagic feat the deity has to a spell as per the AMM SDA. Can apply one additional MM feat for each time the ability is chosen. Requires CL 1 in a spontaneous spellcasting class and Automatic Metamagic. This SDA would serve as the response to a wizard’s Spontaneous Wizard Spells. Anyway, that’s all for now, I haven’t really given this too much thought, but it seems that this simple change (switching the metamagic weakness to the prepared casters), with all its repurcussions, could solve a lot of the problems we tend to associate with the various spellcasting classes, whilst giving sorcerers a flavor that is uniquely theirs. Opinions? to be perfectly honest, such a massive reworking of the system to make the sorcerer and other spontaneous casters better at metamagic is inherantly doomed. such a change would require an entirely new editon of D&D on roughly the same scale as changing 3e to 3.5e. Such an expensive and extensive change is too obtuse to even be usable. Such changes would have to happen at a much more minor level.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-17-04, 11:17 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels the problem with PrC'ing out ASAP seems to be true with all the core spellcasting classes, except the druid. The problem is a lack of class features, which can be easily remedied. Sczatany or whtever his name is did a decent job at fixing that to a certain degree. In fact, I think that was the underlying premise for making those classes as they were. There are many solutions, I said that this wasn't a major attempt on that front-- it has more to do with comparing the wiz and sor in isolation. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels I think you've overstated this problem drastically. a sorcerer can get two spells off in one round using a variety of methods: Twin Spell Repeat Spell (though technically, this would be the *next* round, but it is still 2 in one round. 3 if the sorcerer uses a quickened spell using the method immediately after this one...) arcane preparation + quicken spell contingency chain contingency craft contingent spell any of the simbul's sequencer/spell matrix/whatever spells using one of the cheesy alter self/shapechange into a choker/chronotyn (or whatever) and essentially get another round's worth of actions. I never said Quicken was a huge problem-- I said that MM in general was dissadvantageous to sorcerers, compared to wizards, and especially compared to wizards with MM rods. There are ways to get around Quicken, and you've named several. There is no way to get around MM problems in general (except for a few of my homebrew feats). Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels perhaps, but any effect that requires a massive change to an entire method in which spells are cast. requiring a rewrite to basic rules to fix a class is overkill and cannot succeed. Keep this in mind: changing a class to make its flaws as a class go away requires roughly a few pages of rewritten material. perhaps a FAQ or Erratta. Changing the rules of metamagic would require a new edition of D&D. It's a simple change. It required three lines of text for me to say it. Sorcerers can cast MM spells without increasing casting time. Wizards can't. There, I said it in two sentences. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels arcane preparation does all that with just one feat. a human sorcerer could achieve this easily. even gaining all the advantages that a wizard has with those rods.Arcane Preparation makes the Sorcerer into a mere Wizard variant. The point is to make the classes more distinct, to justify the existance of both. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels the sorcerer and wizard's ability or inability to effectively use metamagic is an indirect consequence of their methods of spellcasting. In any case, neither is truely master over the other reguarding metamagic, though the sorcerer is better only because they can spontaneously apply those feats to their spells at their choosing. But wizards can cast them more efficently and they can quicken. so neither really has a significant advantage over the other, short of a prestige class in order to achieve the goal of being better at Metamagic. That's precisely what I'm out to change. Their magic type doesn't mean anything with MM. The decision about which type of spellcasting (natural or vancian) can use MM effectivly was 100% arbitrary. I propose reversing that decision in the interest of balance and class image, and offer alternate flavor text to back up my arbitrary decision. Wizards become a more focused, scientific class, based on spell research and magic item creation. Sorcerers finally get something that's uniquely theirs-- metamagic power, representing a better understanding of the fundamentals of magic. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels to be perfectly honest, such a massive reworking of the system to make the sorcerer and other spontaneous casters better at metamagic is inherantly doomed. such a change would require an entirely new editon of D&D on roughly the same scale as changing 3e to 3.5e. Such an expensive and extensive change is too obtuse to even be usable. Such changes would have to happen at a much more minor level. Massive? What part of this is massive? The only thing that even requires much thought to implement is the Epic thing, and I'm looking into ways to streamline that one. The SDAs are no more massive or complex than the existing ones, and no effort was ever made by WotC to "balance" SDAs in the first place. As I said above, everything else is very simple and requires little thought to implement-- and can be stated in a small paragraph. MM is a small, though rather potent, part of magic, and this change only changes what classes use it how-- it changes nothing about MM itself. Note that Favored Souls would also gain the MM benefits here discussed, as would Bards.
TheDarkestOfAngels 05-18-04, 12:28 AM	Looking back, perhaps I did overstate what you were talking about. But all that talk about changing this and that regarding metamagic, sorcerers, and wizards have been stated before. But the "massive change" i've stated actually reguards how all the books treat metamagic in reguards to preparation vs. spontaneous spellcasting. That is, all the books regard spontaneous casters as the "-on demand- MM users who cast more slowly" and preparation casters as... well... prepration based MM'ing that doesn't increase time. A lot of material that has anything to do with said interaction implies that and all of that would have to be wrong. It's not like Erratta concerning a specific spell or specific feat, but rather the general rule about how metamagic interacts with the two spellcasting methods. It *could* be done in two lines (or just a phrase or sentence), but it would have impact on all of the written material regarding said effects regarding metamagic and casters. arcane preparation hardly turns the sorcerer into any kind of wizard varient. however, it allows the sorcerer to do everything that it couldn't do before in reguards to metamagic and it negates all of the rules regarding the limitations of spontaneous use of metamagic -- including the most crucial one to the sorcerer. And the sorcerer doens't even need to do it often or prodigeously. The 12th level sorcerer I used with that feat only had maybe 3-5 prepared spells at any one time. 4 quickened spells and one silent teleport (in case I got grappled or something.) and it hardly made the sorcerer seem wizard-like in any way. THe only thing that can counteract a general rule in D&D is a specific one, which means that the problem can be easily gotten around through a specific base class, prestige class, feat, feats, skills, or combination thereof. My epic sorceress, for instance, is both an incantrix and a metamagi. the incantrix allows her to "spontanteously" cast any spell without increasing casting time (2/day) and the metamagi is solely designed (it's in my sig. it's an epic PrC of my own design) to get around that restriction. That, IMO, is and should be the preferred method of getting around said restriction. It's a little more complicated, but it can be more easily assimilated into the rules in that fashion in a legal manner and it wouldn't technically be a houserule. as far as the SDAs, any improvement is a good improvement. though I think that "alter reality" gets by any and all such limitations, plus the automatic metamagics. did you say "balance SDAs?" lol. SDAs are "only if you're a god can you use these." THe only "balance" they have is by being uberfeats for gods. so yes, I agree that "balanced SDAs" is an oxymoron. Though I don't think that the epic thing would be viable.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-18-04, 12:52 AM	Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels Looking back, perhaps I did overstate what you were talking about. But all that talk about changing this and that regarding metamagic, sorcerers, and wizards have been stated before. Yes, well, I tend to avoid any thread on the topic since they don't ever get anywhere (quickly degrading into flame wars and constantly rehashing the same arguments). I've never discussed it and have no idea what's been said on the subject. THis idea was merely the rsult of musings on MM earlier today. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels But the "massive change" i've stated actually reguards how all the books treat metamagic in reguards to preparation vs. spontaneous spellcasting. That is, all the books regard spontaneous casters as the "-on demand- MM users who cast more slowly" and preparation casters as... well... prepration based MM'ing that doesn't increase time. A lot of material that has anything to do with said interaction implies that and all of that would have to be wrong. It's not like Erratta concerning a specific spell or specific feat, but rather the general rule about how metamagic interacts with the two spellcasting methods. It *could* be done in two lines (or just a phrase or sentence), but it would have impact on all of the written material regarding said effects regarding metamagic and casters. I haven't seen it treated very much, but I haven't read much of the more recent material on mages (not that thre's been much since T&B). And I don't read much of 3rd party material at all. All I've seen are lots of new MM feats (many of which just got aded to the SRd, yay!). So, no comment. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels arcane preparation hardly turns the sorcerer into any kind of wizard varient. however, it allows the sorcerer to do everything that it couldn't do before in reguards to metamagic and it negates all of the rules regarding the limitations of spontaneous use of metamagic -- including the most crucial one to the sorcerer. And the sorcerer doens't even need to do it often or prodigeously. The 12th level sorcerer I used with that feat only had maybe 3-5 prepared spells at any one time. 4 quickened spells and one silent teleport (in case I got grappled or something.) and it hardly made the sorcerer seem wizard-like in any way. I don't want sorcerers to have anything to do with vancian spellcasting. They cast spels from inside, by shere force of will, and Arcane Preparation, while mechanically valid, has an entirely different flavor than the base class. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels THe only thing that can counteract a general rule in D&D is a specific one, which means that the problem can be easily gotten around through a specific base class, prestige class, feat, feats, skills, or combination thereof. My epic sorceress, for instance, is both an incantrix and a metamagi. the incantrix allows her to "spontanteously" cast any spell without increasing casting time (2/day) and the metamagi is solely designed (it's in my sig. it's an epic PrC of my own design) to get around that restriction. That, IMO, is and should be the preferred method of getting around said restriction. It's a little more complicated, but it can be more easily assimilated into the rules in that fashion in a legal manner and it wouldn't technically be a houserule. Like I said, I too have made "patches" for this, like the Innate Metamagic feat. But I'd like to make something more widespread and general now, to settle things once and for all. Originally posted by TheDarkestOfAngels as far as the SDAs, any improvement is a good improvement. though I think that "alter reality" gets by any and all such limitations, plus the automatic metamagics. did you say "balance SDAs?" lol. SDAs are "only if you're a god can you use these." THe only "balance" they have is by being uberfeats for gods. so yes, I agree that "balanced SDAs" is an oxymoron. Though I don't think that the epic thing would be viable. I prefer the Dicefreaks Alter Reality myself, but yes, the SDA is horribly broken, and invalidates a lot of other SDAs.
Haldrik 05-21-04, 02:01 PM	Jaerom Darkwind, In short, I agree with you. Sorcerers should use Metamagic *better* than Wizards. Wizards have an inherent advantage in using magic item creation feats because of their spellbook versatility. However, Wizards have an inherent disadvantage using metamagic feats because they have to prepare them ahead of time in the morning. Sorcerers, on the other hand, have an inherent disadvantage using magic item creation feats because of their limited spells known. However, Sorcerers have an inherent advantage using metamagic feasts because they can apply them on the fly just when they are needed! Metamagic also communicates the Sorcerers' expertise with those spells they do know. Allowing Sorcerers to use metamagic (ahem) spontaneously as a free action, including Quicken, enhances the flavor that the Sorcerers already has, and healthily distinguishes them from Wizards. Jaerom Darkwind: Yes, well, I tend to avoid any thread on the topic since they don't ever get anywhere (quickly degrading into flame wars and constantly rehashing the same arguments). Well, I'd like you to ignore your personal rule and contribute your thoughts to the thread, The COMPOSITE SORCERER FIX (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=224419). Thanks in advance.
StevenO 05-21-04, 07:21 PM	A sorcerer really doesn't give up very much use MM when compared to a wizard. The sorcerer can cast a spell and make a move (30') or you cast a MM spell and can take a step (5'), nothing lost unless your trying to stay away. A wizard, on the other hand, has to specifically prepare his MM spell at the cost of being able a spell normally of that level. A wizard can memorize an empowered Fireball or Cone of cold but must choose first while a sorcerer may use either until the slot is used thus giving the sorcerer greater freedom with his spells. Given that MM cost the wizard some of his versitility I'd say MM already favors the sorcerer.