Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gimby 06-23-07, 03:27 AM	I my campaign at the moment the Bard seems to be feeling left out a bit in combat - Id like to beef him up a bit. Quite a lot in fact. So much so that I was considering shifting him from Bard to Duskblade and then grafting on those Bard abilities which have so far seen use. The proposed changes to the Duskblade class are: Loose: Arcane Attunement, Armoured Mage(Medium) and Armoured Mage(Heavy Shield) Gain: Bardic Music, Inspire Courage, Cure Light Wounds as a first level spell. In addition I was considering reducing the prereq's on Arcane Strike such that he would qualify in order to provide the omph to justify TWF. I'm aware that a Bard/Duskblade multiclass would be the simple option but the MAD on that is pretty horrible. Any thoughts? Anything I am clearly missing? While the obvious solution to improve his game would be to provide more social interaction the Paladin takes the role of the party face and due to the IC dynamics of the party this is unlikely to change. The Bard should be getting a bit more non-com screen time soon and that might well help but I'd like to seriously buff his kill-fu.
claypigeons 06-23-07, 03:49 AM	The bard by itself has trouble doing well in combat. They do more to help the party in combat via bardic music than they normally dish out themselves. Also, if the bard wants to do more out of combat, and perhaps play the party face, let him. Perhaps the paladin isn't as pretty to look at as the bard, so NPCs gravitate more toward him than the paladin. Just an idea. As a side note, the Bard and Duskblade have opposite roles in a party, at least as far as I see it. The bard is a support class. The duskblade is a fase-smasher (but with magic tossed in). You might take away a few spells per day from the duskblade, and add Intimidate and such to its skill list (and perhaps boost skill points..not sure how many they get).
gimby 06-23-07, 04:11 AM	The bard by itself has trouble doing well in combat. They do more to help the party in combat via bardic music than they normally dish out themselves. This I think is the problem, as to date his contribution (or at least as far as the rest of the party can see) has often been limited to providing the +1/+1 from bard song. The player actually has a very good tactical understanding and makes good use of flanking and positioning, it's just the Bard lacks the raw power to capitalise on this. Also, if the bard wants to do more out of combat, and perhaps play the party face, let him. Perhaps the paladin isn't as pretty to look at as the bard, so NPCs gravitate more toward him than the paladin. Just an idea. [/QUOTE] I would normally agree with you, but the IC situation kind of prevents him becoming the face (the Paladin is also the Baron of the local area, the rest of the party being his household.) There is a plot just coming up where he will be centre of attention, I just have to make sure the other players do not theive off with his personal plot :) As a side note, the Bard and Duskblade have opposite roles in a party, at least as far as I see it. The bard is a support class. The duskblade is a fase-smasher (but with magic tossed in). You might take away a few spells per day from the duskblade, and add Intimidate and such to its skill list (and perhaps boost skill points..not sure how many they get). 2 per level, but it is int based so that this is not so bad. From talking to the player I think he would be happier doing face-smashing rather than support. I'll have a think about the skill suggestions though, thanks.
Generic Poster 06-23-07, 04:31 AM	I wouldn't try mixing the two, I've played both classes and how they approach every situation is so different that no simple integration of the two classes is going to make much sense. For example, certainly the bardic music abilities are going to be charisma based, which this duskblade would lack, and won't even have perform as a skill. Your duskblade is also going to miss out on the spells that help his bardic abilities such as inspirational boost. A well designed bard can fight effectively, but how he does so is going to be very different then a duskblade. Give your bard a whip (or dagger-whip) and have him stand 15 ft back and disarm people, works especially wielded two handed with improved disarm and the blade weave spell. Or he can take precise shot and rapid be able to shoot effectively in combat, especially with the high dexterity he should be doing nearly as much damage as the warriors in the party. At any rate, no spellcaster should try to tank for a party and try to be a damage sponge, not even a duskblade. Played correctly a bard should be able to contribute significantly to combat. However, if the player is upset because for example the barbarian is getting more kills then him, he should probably play another character since alot of his abilities are support as well as buff/debuff and control, all things the duskblade are bad at. I suppose if spells aren't the issue here maybe play a marshal and give them a full bab (they are somewhat a little on the weak side), which would give him a fighter character complete with auras. Or he can take the dragon disciple, warrior skald or war chanter prestige classes to combine martial prowness with bardic abilities. Also, alter self is a huge boost in fighting prowness with the natural attacks and big natural ac bonuses it gives for certain races such as trogs and lizardfolk. Edit: as an interesting exercise, look over the bard and duskblade spell lists. I can find less then a handful of spells that overlap both classes even though they both mostly draw from the wizards/sorcerers list. Duskblade is almost all damage spells (and limited mobility spells, mostly swift) and bards are pretty much everything else.
OneWinged4ngel 06-23-07, 04:44 AM	I my campaign at the moment the Bard seems to be feeling left out a bit in combat - Id like to beef him up a bit. Quite a lot in fact. So much so that I was considering shifting him from Bard to Duskblade and then grafting on those Bard abilities which have so far seen use. The proposed changes to the Duskblade class are: Loose: Arcane Attunement, Armoured Mage(Medium) and Armoured Mage(Heavy Shield) Gain: Bardic Music, Inspire Courage, Cure Light Wounds as a first level spell. In addition I was considering reducing the prereq's on Arcane Strike such that he would qualify in order to provide the omph to justify TWF. I'm aware that a Bard/Duskblade multiclass would be the simple option but the MAD on that is pretty horrible. Any thoughts? Anything I am clearly missing? While the obvious solution to improve his game would be to provide more social interaction the Paladin takes the role of the party face and due to the IC dynamics of the party this is unlikely to change. The Bard should be getting a bit more non-com screen time soon and that might well help but I'd like to seriously buff his kill-fu. Actually, you can make a KILLER bard/Warblade TWFer build, thanks to Song of the White Raven. Duskblade doesn't have to enter the equation, really. I'll see if I can find the link... but search for "bardic badass." It's a Bard4/Warblade or Crusader (you can use either) 16 that ends up having 9th level maneuvers, giving +12d6 energy damage to EVERYONE's attacks, and doing a good 600 damage a shot on his own TWFing, using TWF feats, a dragon magic (or draconomicon, not sure) feat called Dragonfire Inspiration that switches your inspire courage bonus to energy damage, and Song of the White Raven. ___ Secondly... the things you're giving the Duskblade generally outweigh the things you're taking away. Armored Mage (heavy shield) and Arcane Attunement have little to do with balance (particularly if you don't use a heavy shield, which MANY Duskblades do not), and the loss of Armored Mage (medium) is going to result in -3 AC (mithral breastplate vs mithral full plate), while allowing you to maintain that 30 foot move speed that you're going to want anyways, so it's not much of a loss. Gaining Bardic Music and Inspire Courage, on the other hand, is fairly substantial. Inspire Courage alone can add up to +15 or so to *everyone's* attack and damage, in melee and at range and with spells, for 10 rounds as a swift action many times per day. (If you don't believe me, here you go: Song of the Heart (ECS), Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium), Masterwork Instrument (Complete Adventurer), Vest of Legends (DMG II... I think), Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds), Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) makes for a good start, giving you a hard +1+1+1+1+4+1, plus a base of up to 4, giving you +13 attack and damage right there. It's almost like free true strikes for the whole party (It's not +20, but +13 is still a very large chunk), plus damage bonuses approximately equivelent to free sneak attack +4d6 that always works (which averages +14 damage). You can get this bonus up to about +8 by 8th level, and these items are pretty cheap except for Vest of Legends) Getting Cure Light Wounds is just frosting on the cake, but it's still tasty frosting... you get to carry the Cure Light Wounds wand, which is all you REALLY need to be a solid healer out of combat (which is where you're usually going to be wanting to do your healing anyways) Anyways, that's my analysis of the tradeoff. Basically, the Duskblade is getting one of the best features of the bard out of the deal, while losing next to nothing. ___ Oh, another thing... if your only real concern is MAD, you may want to consider the option of using my "Sorcerous Duskblade" variant, in my sig. You might even consider throwing in the "Arcane Duelist Duskblade" variant too. That would give you some more synergy, and make multiclassing more viable. For convenience, I'll repost here: 1) Sorcerous: With this variant, the Duskblade has developed his arcane skill naturally, as a Sorceror. He uses Charisma as his main casting stat instead of Intelligence, and gains Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy as class skills. He loses all Knowledge class skills except for Knowledge: Arcana. Skills change to 4+int. ... 4) Arcane Duelist The Duskblade loses the Armored Mage abilities, except for Light Armor (NOT light shields) at first level, and the Combat Casting feat at level 2. She gains Balance, Tumble, Diplomacy and Bluff as class skills. She gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at level 1. At level 2, she gains Einhander tactical feat as a bonus feat (PHB II), even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She gains Canny Defense (int to AC) at level 4, which only works if she wears no armor. At level 7, she gains Elaborate Parry, and adds a +4 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively or taking a full defense action. At The Arcane Duelist may only use her arcane channelling ability with Weapon Finessable weapons. The Arcane Duelist may only use Quick Cast if she is holding nothing in one hand (e.g. not wielding a two handed weapon or holding a shield during the round.) 4b) Sorcerous Arcane Duelist As the Arcane Duelist *and* the Sorcerous variants, except that instead of Canny Defense the Duskblade receives Apparent Defense, adding Charisma to AC. ___ I hope this all helps. Happy gaming -OneWinged4ngel
gimby 06-23-07, 05:56 AM	It does indeed. I'm going to discuss this with my player and see what he thinks. Thanks.
OneWinged4ngel 06-24-07, 02:10 AM	It does indeed. I'm going to discuss this with my player and see what he thinks. Thanks. :king: