Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TwinBahamut 03-10-04, 08:35 PM	Lately, my brother and I have been working on a way to combine the class systems of D&D and D20 Modern. More specifically, we are intending to combine the 6 base classes of D20 Modern: the Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, and Charismatic Hero classes, with a group of (mostly) original Advanced Classes which capture the feel of a more D&D style campaign. Obviously, this is a lot of work, but we find making up rules like this to be fun, so we are going ahead with it. Also obviously, this is something of a difficult and complex task. D&D and D20 Modern, while very similar, are also very different. Different skill lists, feat lists, alignment systems, weaponry choices, etc, all add up to make a fusion of the system require a lot of compromise. As a result, we are essentially creating an entirely new D20 system. Fortunatly, we already have some of the groundwork done, and have a good idea where we want to take it. But some suggestions could be very helpful, so we are asking for input. I am going to start with some of what we are using as the base... * The almost exact same six base classes as D20 Modern. Only changes would be slight modifications to skill and feat lists. Maybe something else to make magic more open to these classes. * The Allegience system of D20 Modern. I am probably going to modify the system a bit, but no Law-Chaos or Good-Evil alignments. No allegience requirements for Advanced classes. * An Occupation system like from D20 Modern. Probably not much impact on the classes themselves though. * Action Points, so classes might have abilities which require an action point to enable. * No multiclassing experience penalties. As a method of giving some kind of structure to this project, we decided to create 21 advanced classes, each one designed to take advantage of a distinct combination of two ability scores. Each advanced class will be focused around a relatively limited set of abilities. Our current list of advanced class ideas: Strength/Strength: Martial Artist This is the main unarmed combat class. Probably going to base it directly from the D20 Modern equivalent, except maybe some modification. Strength/Constitution: Berserker The class designed to rage. Strength/Dexterity: Samurai This will be very different from other Samurai classes I have seen in WotC products. It will probably focus on lighter armor and both two-handed and finessable weapons. No ancestral daisho. Strength/Intelligence: Knight This is a harder one... Applying Intelligence to combat rolls is some manner, with an emphasis of tactics maybe. Strength/Wisdom: Crusader Also a hard one. Not too sure about this stat combo. Strength/Charisma: Marshal Similar to the Miniatures Handbook version. A leader in combat that givers bonuses to allies. Constitution/Constitution: Defender Heavy armor and defense. An iron wall of a character. Based from the dwarven defender probably. Not too sure about this one. Constitution/Dexterity: Nomad A mounted warrior. A mix of the halfling outrider and cavalier classes probably. Constitution/Intelligence: Artisan This is defintely one I am not so sure about. Intelligence works well with the idea of a class built for craft skills, but Constitution doesn't. I could use some ideas on how to replace this slot. Constitution/Wisdom: Ranger This is going to be somewhat similar to the D&D ranger, but also pretty different. A class designed to wander and track across any terrain, possibly with an animal companion. Could use some ideas. Constitution/Charisma: Shaman A spellcaster class, probably one which relies on domain style spell lists. Dexterity/Dexterity: Rogue All the classic pickpocketing, trap disarming, scouting, and treasure hunting abilities unique to rogues will be in this class. It will also have sneak attack progression. Dexterity/Intelligence: Ninja A skilled and stealthy fighter, good with two light weapons and light throwing weapons. Will have Use Magic Device ability. Dexterity/Wisdom: Hunter The skilled archer of the classes. Will also have the Favored Enemy ability. Dexterity/Charisma: Bard The talented musician of classes. Not the jack-of-all-trades as per D&D core rules, but will have a vastly enhanced bardic music ability much more similar to wizard-caliber magic. Intelligence/Intelligence: Scholar The master of Knowledge skills. Will probably have Use Magic Device capability. Intelligence/Wisdom: Wizard Something quite close to the normal D&D Wizard. He prepares spells every day from a spellbook. Will also have the ability to be able to spontaneosly cast a limited number of spells based from his Wisdom score. Intelligence is primary spell stat. Intelligence/Charisma: Sorcerer This one is going to be a bit different than the D&D Sorcerer. I am thinking about making it have an elemental magic focus. Not sure about what kind of spellcasting system to use. Charisma is primary spell stat. Not sure how to use Intelligence. Wisdom/Wisdom: Monk This is not going to be the classic D&D monk. After all, the martial artist already exists. This is going to be a more generic monk, one who lives a life devoted to religious beliefs. Quite likely this class will use something like the Vow feats from the BoED as class abilities. Wisdom/Charisma: Cleric Divine Spellcasters with Wisdom as the primary spellcasting stat. Again I am not sure of the exact spellcasting system I will use, or whether I will use domains. I am thinking of replacing Turning entirely with something that lets the cleric gain power through the belief of others of the same religion. Charisma/Charisma: Diplomat A class built around charisma skills like Diplomacy and Gather Information. Will probably also have the ability to use something like the abilities of the Song and Silence Virtuoso class. Of course this is only a beginning list. We can use some input on how to implement some of these. So, any suggestions?
ninthdragon 03-10-04, 09:39 PM	Strength/Wisdom could be a paladin-type class with abilities targeting ranger-like favoured enemies rather than opposing alignments, and all Cha abilities replaced with Wis. For Str/Int, you could upgrade the Smart hero's combat talents and give it a full or 3/4 BAB depending on whether you want to focus on d20M or D&D. The same would apply to Str/Cha for the Leadership tree. Why is Str/Dex called a Samurai? It sounds more like a swashbuckler to me. A Samurai would be a particular form of Str/Wis. I think this is where Sneak Attack belongs, too. Dex/Dex should be more like the d20M Infiltrator. Con/Con could borrow from the Devoted Defender (Sword and Fist) too, focused on protecting others as well. Bonuses to AC in heavy armour, improved DR based on Concentration checks (DC based on last damage taken)? Con/Int could be a mage-killer and item-forger, a centre of dwarf combat (for example). Bonus item creation feats, elemental resistances, SR and at higher levels area antimagic shields. Con/Wis could get improved sensory abilities, like LL vision, darkvision, blindsight and tremoursense. Picking up on your shaman idea, Con/Cha could use Cha to bind spirits for spells and Con to channel them into himself for combat bonuses.
heretic888 03-11-04, 10:38 AM	Dexterity/Intelligence: Ninja A skilled and stealthy fighter, good with two light weapons and light throwing weapons. Will have Use Magic Device ability. Bleh. Sounds like a weird Rogue/Ranger multiclass. Not very appropriate to a "ninja, in my opinion. I'd toss out the two-weapon combat and Use Magic Device skill for some more appropriate (or at least original) ideas.
TwinBahamut 03-11-04, 06:51 PM	ninthdragon - Some good suggestions. I am not sure about the Str/Wis granting Favored Enemy Bonuses, because the Dex/Wis hunter has that currently, but possibly. Maybe giving it to both couldn't be too bad... Str/Dex is Samurai because currently this system is currently being focused towards a Homebrew setting with a lot of Oriental flavor mixed with the Western. Of course, the setting easily could do with a swashbuckler, and I agree that Str/Dex fits a swashbuckler well. I think I will put Samurai as Str/Wis. Thanks for the idea. It makes things more clear. I am not sure about the Sneak Attack point, but I will consider it. I agree about Str/Int, Con/Wis and Con/Con. Thanks for those ideas. And those are some very interesting ideas for the Con/Int category. Because the tough hero has energy resistance, I am loathe to give it as an Advanced class ability, but the other idea are very helpful. And that is a very interesting idea for Con/Cha. Again, thanks. heretic888 - Why isn't it very appropriate for a ninja? Shuriken, light kunai and ninja-to weapons, a large number of quick attacks, and the use of scrolls to cast magic are all major elements of the ninja mythos. And since I am removing two-weapon fighting from the ranger, it really isn't a ranger/rogue mix. Thanks for the replies so far. Please keep them coming.
ninthdragon 03-12-04, 03:01 PM	I am not sure about the Str/Wis granting Favored Enemy Bonuses, because the Dex/Wis hunter has that currently, but possibly. Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that the Str/Wis could use paladin abilities - smite, detect - against enemies like "elementals" or "humanoid (orc)," since you've got rid of alignments. For the caster classes, you could split the spellcasting stats; one gives you bonus spells and governs the highest spell you can know, the other gives save DCs, like they did for the Mystic in Urban Arcana. Obviously this is going to work very well with your system, particularly if you want a lower-magic setting. This would give you a place to use the extra stat for the wizard and sorcerer. I suggest that Int lets you "know" arcane magic, and Wis (wizard) and Cha (sorcerer) determines how powerful it is. Wis lets you "know" divine magic, and the cleric's Cha sets the save DCs. In return for this weakening, all caster classes get class features based on their save DC stat. For example, the sorcerer could get Enchantment spell-like abilities and social skill bonuses; the wizard could make Sense Motive checks to appraise an enemy's magical prowess and defences; the cleric could inspire fellow worshippers and use the paladin's Cha abilities.
heretic888 03-14-04, 02:30 PM	Why isn't it very appropriate for a ninja? Shuriken, light kunai and ninja-to weapons, a large number of quick attacks, and the use of scrolls to cast magic are all major elements of the ninja mythos. And since I am removing two-weapon fighting from the ranger, it really isn't a ranger/rogue mix. Well, where to start?? Many notable ninja, both in history and mythology, were known to be as proficient with spears as they were with shuriken or shortswords. I can't think of any historical or mythological example of the ninja that used a kunai, tanto, or aikuchi as a principal weapon (the kunai was actually a digging and door-jamming tool --- but could double as a weapon, if needed). In addition, the ninja-to was a specific weapon of a single ryuha (Togakure ryu) and not a general ninja weapon. Most ryuha used a katana, to the best of my knowledge. "A large number of quick attacks"?? Well, the quick attacks would certainly be accurate, but not the "large number" part. Ninja tactics generally centered on speed, precision, accuracy, and stealth: hit-and-run style scatter-tactics --- not hitting the same target over and over and over. The use of scrolls to cast magic is not really a part of ninja mythos, outside of Final Fantasy. Scrolls, in Japanese mythology, represent a knowledge or magic or some kind and were not seen as the tools or sources of that magic in and of themselves. Two-weapon combat also, outside of Final Fantasy, is not part of ninja mythology --- unless you consider Musashi Miyamoto a "ninja". Carrying two weapons would also impede the stealth, mobility, and precision attacks that ninjutsu tactics tend to focus on. Laterz.
TwinBahamut 03-14-04, 10:27 PM	ninthdragon - Thanks for the clarification about what you meant. Also, that is a very good idea about the splitting of the spellcasting stat. I didn't notice that about the Mystic, thanks for pointing it out. heretic888 - Based from your comments, I am certain about two things: you know a lot more about historical and literary ninja than I do, and that you must not have seen as many portrayals of ninja in japanese pop culture as I have.:) Based from a mix of reasons, I have to disagree with some of your suggestions. Sorry.
TwinBahamut 03-19-04, 08:37 PM	Hmm... thread has fallen a bit... I could still use some suggestions, so I guess its time to bump this thread back up. Anyways, I have quite a bit of work done on this over the past couple days. I have 3 classes that are mostly designed (Ranger, Wizard, Berserker). Getting all the numbers for hit die, skill points, BAB, Saves, and Defense Bonus to balance out is difficult though. Is there any good method for figuring that out?
heretic888 03-23-04, 04:59 PM	heretic888 - Based from your comments, I am certain about two things: you know a lot more about historical and literary ninja than I do, and that you must not have seen as many portrayals of ninja in japanese pop culture as I have. Oh, I might surprise you. ;) In all honesty, I can't find any "two-sword fightin'" ninja outside of Final Fantasy. If you could point to any others, I would be very interested.
TwinBahamut 03-23-04, 07:44 PM	I never said two "sword" fighting. I said two "light weapons". Really, I was thinking more along the lines of two dagger fighting. Something more like Taki from Soul Calibur rather than Edge from Final Fantasy 4. It would also count fighting with double weapons like the Kusari-Gama (my personal favorite ninja weapon), and use of light throwing weapons like the shuriken. Besides, the main reason I am having the Ninja be a two-weapon fighter is that it is a hole in the abilities available to other Advanced classes. I need some class with some ability in that regard. Anyways, I haven't started with that particular class yet, so do you have any good suggestions on implementation? Though keep in mind that part of the philosophy behind these advanced classes is that they need to be open and flexible, rather than tailored for a particular culture. I only really am using the term ninja because it is an idea on how to implement a Dex/Int focused class. Assassin might also work equally as well as a class name. So far I have the Ranger, Hunter, Nomad, Wizard, and Berserker classes all about 70% complete. Still working out some details with them, but I will post my current versions soon.
heretic888 03-24-04, 12:16 PM	Really, I was thinking more along the lines of two dagger fighting. Something more like Taki from Soul Calibur rather than Edge from Final Fantasy 4. It would also count fighting with double weapons like the Kusari-Gama (my personal favorite ninja weapon), and use of light throwing weapons like the shuriken. I see. Still, I don't think that necessarily fits the archetype that well. Most "ninja" in both history and mythology are seen using a single weapon, and most often a katana, ninja-to, or spear --- not a dagger or knife. Kusari-gama and shuriken would be good, though. Besides, the main reason I am having the Ninja be a two-weapon fighter is that it is a hole in the abilities available to other Advanced classes. I need some class with some ability in that regard. I would suggest either a variant of a Swashbuckler or a Samurai (akin to the Niten Swordfighting master) to fill that void, rather than a Ninja. It fits both the history and the mythology better, in my opinion. Anyways, I haven't started with that particular class yet, so do you have any good suggestions on implementation? Though keep in mind that part of the philosophy behind these advanced classes is that they need to be open and flexible, rather than tailored for a particular culture. I only really am using the term ninja because it is an idea on how to implement a Dex/Int focused class. Assassin might also work equally as well as a class name. Well, if you don't actually want to make a "ninja", then perhaps something like Assassin, Thief-Acrobat, or Rogue would be a more appopriate archetype to portray. If you do want to make a "ninja", then I would suggest something along the lines of Canny Defense (add Int modifier to AC), Sneak Attacks, Feint bonuses, Disarm bonuses, Initiative bonuses, stunning attacks, exotic weapon proficiencies, stealth and/or acrobatic bonuses, and perhaps bonuses to add Dex modifier to damage rolls (for Weapon Finesse-able attacks). The Fast Hero can utilize Uncanny Dodges and Evasions, so I would build upon that to fit the archetype (with the speed feat tree possibly fitting another advanced class better). There are a lot of cool feats in Way of the Ninja that might give you some ideas. I have also made a few ninja base classes that might give you ideas. There is the AEG ninja class in Rokugan Campaign Setting and the heavily-broken ninja class in Dragon #318. There is also Ninja Spy PrC in Oriental Adventures and Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC in Sword and Fist. There is also supposedly going to be a Ninja advanced class in Blood and Fists 2, due out within the month. Hope this helps. Laterz.
TwinBahamut 03-25-04, 12:50 PM	heretic888 - Thanks for those suggestions. A lot of those could be very helpful. You are probably right about dropping the focus for the ninja away from daggers and two weapon fighting a bit. I guess I will probably move those towards the swashbuckler (after all, swashbucklers historically used something like that samurai ninten style, with a sword for attack and dagger for defense). Hmm... Canny defense, sneak attacks, stunning attacks, and initiative bonuses... That might work. I need to think a bit though. In the mean time, I could use some input on classes I have partially completed. So, here some of them are: Keep in mind, I really have no clue what I am doing when it comes to balance, and that all of these are works in progress. Someone more experienced at class building is very welcome to make suggestions. Also, many things like Hit Die, Saves, BAB, Skills, and Class Defense Bonus are not decided upon yet, so I won't list them for now. So, here I go. Wizard 1: Specialization, Arcane Magic 2: Scribe Scroll, Arcane Magic 3: Bonus Feat, Arcane Magic 4: Perfect Spell (1st), Arcane Magic 5: Spell Mastery, Arcane Magic 6: Bonus Feat, Arcane Magic 7: Perfect Spell (2nd), Arcane Magic 8: Spell Mastery, Arcane Magic 9: Bonus Feat, Arcane Magic 10: Perfect Spell (3rd), Arcane Magic Arcane Magic progression and Specialization is exactly like first ten levels of D&D wizard, with th exception that spell DCs are based on Wisdom rather than Intelligence, though Int is still used for everything else concerning magic. Scribe Scroll and Spell Mastery are simply the feats. Perfect Spell turns one spell the wizard knows of the designated level into a spell-like ability, usable a number of times per day equal to his wisdom modifier. Nomad 1: Ride Bonus, Mounted Weapon Bonus +1 2: Defensive Riding 3: Bonus Feat 4: Burst of Speed. Mounted Weapon Bonus +2 5: Deadly Charge 6: Bonus Feat 7: Full Mounted Attack, Mounted Weapon Bonus +3 8: Leap From the Saddle 9: Bonus Feat 10: Unstoppable Charge, Mounted Weapon Bonus +4 Ride Bonus, Defensive Riding, Full Mounted Attack, and Leap from the Saddle are all the same as the abilities of the same name used by the Halfling Outrider in Complete Warrior. Full Mounted Attack: The nomad gains the bonus to attack rolls on one weapon type chosen at first level while mounted. Deadly Charge/Unstoppable Charge: As per the Cavalier from Complete Warrior, except requires an action point, rather than a #/day. Not 100% sure about this though. Berserker 1: Rage 1/day 2: Improved Charge 3: Bonus Feat 4: Rage 2/day 5: Delay Damage 6: Bonus Feat 7: Rage 3/day 8: Deathless Rage 9: Bonus Feat 10: Greater Rage, Rage 4/day Rage and Greater Rage: Same as D&D Barbarian Improved Charge: Can charge in a non-straight path. Delay Damage: Puts off damage taken for a number of rounds equal to class level. Deathless Rage: Doesn't suffer the effects of falling beneath 0 hit points while raging. Ranger 1: Track, Companion 2: Terrain Mastery 3: Bonus Feat 4: Woodland Stride 5: Terrain mastery 6: Bonus Feat 7: Swift Tracker 8: Terrain Mastery 9: Bonus Feat 10: Blindsense(30ft) Track is just the feat Companion: Very much like the Druid's Animal Companion, except probably more powerful. I intend to combine Animal Companions and Paladin Mounts in this ability. Terrain Mastery: As per the Horizon Walker Woodland Stride and Swift Tracker: As per the D&D Ranger's abilities. Blindsense: Gains Blindsense out to 30ft. I am really not sure if this is worthy of a tenth level ability though. Hunter 1: Concealed Position, Prone Arrow 2: 1st Favored Enemy, Hidden Strike (1d6) 3: Bonus Feat 4: Improved Sniping, Hidden Strike (2d6) 5: 2nd Favored Enemy 6: Bonus Feat, Hidden Strike (3d6) 7: Defensive Position 8: 3rd Favored Enemy, Hidden Strike (4d6) 9: Bonus Feat 10: Camouflage, Hidden Strike (5d6) Concealed Position: Increases miss chance due to concealment by 20% for attacks against the hunter. Prone Arrow: Can fire shortbows, compound shortbows, and compound longbows from prone at a -4 penalty. Favored Enemy and Camouflage are same as D&D ranger's abilites of same name. Hidden Strike: The hunter gains the listed damage bonus when he hits an enemy not aware of his presence. This damage can be dealt either at melee range, or up to one range increment of a ranged attack. Improved Sniping: The penalty on hide checks from using the sniping ability of the Hide skill is reduced by half, to -10 from -20. Defensive Position: The hunter gains an additional +2 bonus to Defense and Reflex saves while under cover. Samurai 1: Smite 1/day, Unyielding Courage 2: Great Cleave 3: Bonus Feat 4: Smite 2/day, Wisdom Defense 5: Improved Power Attack 6: Bonus Feat 7: Smite 3/day 8: Supreme Cleave 9: Bonus Feat 10: Smite 4/day, Supreme Power Attack Smite: For a declared smite, Samurai adds wisdom bonus to attack roll and class level to damage roll. Unlike Smite Evil, thos works on any opponent. Great Cleave: Gains the feat Wisdom Defense: Gains Wisdom bonus to Defense while wearing no armor. Improved and Supreme Power Attack: Same as Frenzied Berserker in Complete Warrior. Supreme Cleave: Same as Knight Protector in Complete Warrior. There, that is about it for now. Any suggestions on how to improve these?