Post/Author/DateTime	Post
camirblu 08-31-04, 10:54 PM	Let me start this by saying: I've never played a monk before, but I'm getting the strong idea that toe to toe is a Very Bad Idea with an AC of 13, and that it tends to be in general with monks, especially at low levels. Any advice on just...staying alive? I'm not looking for optimized, I'm looking for advice that will help me work decently with the party and not leave my party members without help...and hopefully not to have to suffer a res spell before I hit fifth level. Also, any advice for staying alive in the battlefield in general, and the general role monks fulfill in a party? I get the feeling that they're quasi-jack-of-all-trades. We're sticking with core rules so far. This is what I've started out with: STR:13 DEX:10 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 10 IUS*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Initiave From race, I have base mvt of 40, which is going to make movement insane later on. Your wisdom is both appreciated, and needed.
Cold Napalm 08-31-04, 11:14 PM	Umm why is your dex so low? Did you roll these number or are you doing point buy? If your doing point buy, just ignore the monk unless you really REALLY want to play one since without the stats to back him up, he'll die...alot at low levels. Also lower you wisdom to 15 and pump dex to 14...that will raise your AC by 1. If it's rolled...umm see if you can reroll.
Lady Ishtar 08-31-04, 11:26 PM	getting spring attack is useful, as with your insane movement you dont have to be near your enemy to attack them. improved trip: they have to get up to attack you without penalties. when they stand up you get an attack of opportunity. be a support fighter, halp with flanking, etc. dont play him as a fron line fighter. if you can get rif of improved initiative and take dodge.
General Dorsey 08-31-04, 11:54 PM	My advice would be to get Dodge first (you need to improve your Dexterity though to do this). This will give you a +1 AC against one attacker, plus it's a prerequisite feat for many others including Mobility and Spring Attack. I would also recommend that you consider fighting defensively. Put lots of ranks into tumble. This will allow you to improve your AC by +3 with a -4 to hit (don't worry to much about that yet, staying alive at low levels is more important). If you use the total defense option, your AC will improve by +6. You need 5 ranks in tumble (2nd level will get you there) to do this. You will also be able to move through threatened areas easier, so consider using tumble a lot. Also, put ranks into jump. 5 ranks in jump will give you a +2 bonus on tumble checks. Consider also improving your Dexterity if you can. If not, then focus on Constitution. If you get hit often and don't have the hit points to support you, your character will die. I would also recommend a reach weapon since you will probably be trying to avoid getting too close. With your Dexterity, you won't be very useful with ranged weapons, especially if the fighters are already in melee. Stunning Fist was a good idea. The reason is, although you don't want to be too close, you will be able to at least keep your opponent from hurting you or others. The DC is Wisdom based, so you have a decent start. I would drop Improved Initiative. Take it later. Consider martial weapon proficiency (any reach weapon). You want to avoid getting hit, so stay out of range. What race are you? All the core races are 30 feet or less. If you can, switch to a race that will either give you a bonus feat (human), or will improve Wisdom or Dexterity. Either one will help you. If you can, see if your DM will let you swap your Wisdom and Dexterity. If so, drop Stunning Fist and take Improved Grapple. Your AC will not change, but your Initiative will, as will tumble. You will also be able to take better monk related feats, such as Dodge and Weapon Finesse. When I create a character, I always try to envision him from 1st to 20th level. This allows me to choose the most appropriate feats and skills as I go. Sometimes I change my mind while I'm playing the character, but I always have some focus. Good luck.
Ma'ElKoth 08-31-04, 11:55 PM	I'm with cold napalm. Monks, more than any other class really, need exceptional stats to be viable, especially at low levels. Another option would be to switch race to Goliath, take Improved grapple and related feats, and go to town.
Bartleby_GoC 09-01-04, 01:04 AM	If you can change stats, drop Str and Wis by one each to boost Dex to 12. Maybe even go for Dex 14 Con 12. If you can't (or choose not to) change stats, you need to read up on all the combat options. Learn them like your life depends on it, because you character's will. You will ikely be fighting defensively quite a bit. Invest in alchemical toys that can give an edge. You will probably want to coordinate with the casters of the party to arrange good combos of buff and protection spells. You are a 2nd line fighter. You are good for distraction tactics. If you take out an enemy, great, but really, you only need to hold their attention until someone else can back you up. This will change as youi level up. For now, you will be a drain on the party resources. Soon enough, they will be happy to have you. Bartleby
camirblu 09-01-04, 03:15 AM	Thank you all for the advice: I'm getting a better picture, now. I think I'm going to enjoy monks. :) I'm approaching the DMs and asking. As I said, I'm not trying for powerplay. But, as someone else said that I discussed it with: 'you won't last too terribly long in any sort of conflict unless you have a bunch of people covering you... and that's no fun for you.' No, it isn't. And, I don't have the funds to buy all the healing potions in the world. ;) Finally, as a 'guard' I don't want to have my employers protecting me half the time, instead of the other way around.
Cold Napalm 09-01-04, 03:32 AM	Okay looks like 30 point buy system Try this str 14 (6 points) dex 14 (6 points) Con 14 (6 points)...see a trend? int 8 (who needs skills) wis 16 (10 points) Cha 10 (2 points) If you want you could be ugly and smarter if your gonna be more skill hungry. This way AC is 15, +2 to hit and damage +2 hp per level. With point buy 14 is your friend. As for feats improved init is kind of a waste...but I forgot what 3.5 monks get so I'm not so sure on feats...but dodge is always a good start.
danielinthewolvesden 09-01-04, 03:33 AM	Yeah, Monks need good stats. They need at least a 14 in everything but Int & Cha. Cha can be a "dump stat".
q'afuu 09-01-04, 07:38 AM	Yeah, Monks need good stats. They need at least a 14 in everything but Int & Cha. Cha can be a "dump stat". They 'need' nothing of the sort. Why would a monk absolutely have to have a 14 or more in Str or Con? You don't even 'need' a 14 Dex if your Wis is good and you prefer to focus on Str rather than Dex for your attack rolls.
pres_man 09-01-04, 09:31 AM	Two words: "Mage Armor" If the wizard refuses to cast it on you, slap him around a little.
DragonsArt 09-01-04, 11:25 AM	First, don't go with improved initiative as your first feat. Monks get very few feats and I wouldn't waste one. You definately want to go with the Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack combination at sixth level. Also... seriously consider being human for that extra feat. The base movement of only 10ft. more isn't significant at higher levels, whereas a feat that can scale can come in VERY handy. If you're playing with options - consider improved toughness, from the CW or MH which gives you +1 hp/level. Your best best is to get yourself a guisarme. You will take a -4 penalty to attack with it but it gives you reach and you can trip with it - which is a touch attack. So, basically, you'll threaten 10' and get a free attack when they move through your threatened area. While normally, a trip attack would normally provoke an AOO, with the reach weapon, you won't get an AOO unless the creature has reach. Also, while the guisarme doesn't allow you to attack adjacent foes, you can still use your unarmed strikes while still holing the guisarme, as you can kick, knee or elbow, so you've got the best of both worlds. To stay alive, you might consider working with a rogue. Your fast move (and reach if using the guisarme) will allow you to get into a flanking position quickly, allowing him to maximize his sneak attack. So if you move, fight defensively and concentrate on trip attacks, you can give your rogue potentionally +6 to attack (+2 flank, +4 prone) with +1d6 sneak attack at first level. Monks aren't a brute force class. They are a finese class. It takes skill and strategy to play them well. Good luck!
Ma'ElKoth 09-01-04, 11:26 AM	They 'need' nothing of the sort Maybe "should probably have." Monks are very stat-dependant. Items only close the gap so far. A good Con is vital to a monk, since they get hit fairly often, even at high levels. A good Str is only essential if you want to be a grappler. Then it is absolutely essential.
dragonghostmonk 09-01-04, 12:28 PM	ive been playing monks since i started, which is about a year and a half....and while that isnt much xp compared to most people on this board...i will say this....WIS and DEX are vital to the monk, honestly, if you start low-level, dont play a monk unless you roll good stats....or you have a good sized group...if you need anything else....(since im doing this in a study hall) email me at Dragon Ghost Monk's Instant Transmission (dragonghostmonk@hotmail.com) :dice::dice::dice::dice::dice: and see if your DM will allow you to roll 5d6 or maybe even 6d6...(still keeping only three)...because point buy cant give you stats as high as rolling... and someone please help me find my other post on the wolfbrother class :weep:
q'afuu 09-01-04, 02:39 PM	and someone please help me find my other post on the wolfbrother class :weep: If you posted it last week (while the upgrade was being done) it's gone, as announced with a sticky thread on every board. EDIT: found it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=297788), end of page 4 of this board at the time.
Lina_Inverse 09-01-04, 03:09 PM	Let me start this by saying: I've never played a monk before, but I'm getting the strong idea that toe to toe is a Very Bad Idea with an AC of 13, and that it tends to be in general with monks, especially at low levels. Any advice on just...staying alive? I'm not looking for optimized, I'm looking for advice that will help me work decently with the party and not leave my party members without help...and hopefully not to have to suffer a res spell before I hit fifth level. Also, any advice for staying alive in the battlefield in general, and the general role monks fulfill in a party? I get the feeling that they're quasi-jack-of-all-trades. We're sticking with core rules so far. This is what I've started out with: STR:13 DEX:10 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 17 CHA: 10 IUS*, Stunning Fist*, Improved Initiave From race, I have base mvt of 40, which is going to make movement insane later on. Your wisdom is both appreciated, and needed. your dex is too low,str too high.i would say with that setup. Str10,Dex14,Con13,Int10,Wis17,Cha10. where did you get all those 10s?unless its pointbuy in which case youd want a 14dex minium a 16wisdom and a 8 int/cha.
rbingham2000 09-05-04, 10:30 AM	Monks have two things going for them AC-wise: the Dexterity bonus that every class gets to AC, and the Wisdom bonus specific to the monk class. Both need to be high if you want a good AC for the monk, and the Dodge and Mobility feats aren't too bad either, as they further up AC against specific opponents. As for why a player would want a high Strength for a monk: a high Strength means more damage with your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
amethal 09-05-04, 10:44 AM	If you have a rogue in the party, use your tumble and mobility to get into good positions so you and the rogue can flank. You can even fight defensively at that point, or use the aid another action to give the rogue a +2 bonus to hit. This will enable the rogue to use his sneak attack. Our party has a halfling rogue with strength 12; at 3rd level the difference between him doing 1d4+1 damage and 1d4+1+2d6 damage was phenominal.
dragonghostmonk 09-05-04, 01:09 PM	true...a monk really isnt a toe-to-toe fighter at low levels, he is more a tricks guy....ie Imp. Disarm, Trip, Grapple but at higher levels can do damage as a fighter with a greatsword and more....Zen Archery from The Complete Warrior sourcebook is a good feat, it allows you to use your Wis bonus for ranged attacks as opposed to Dex....actually i think its better for Drds and Clrs.....but not bad for a monk with screwy stats and in a pinch can be a replacement for a rogue, my house-rules are that monks also get Open Locks as a Class skill, something we all liked from 1st ed.
BW0222 09-05-04, 02:08 PM	camirblu, >Any advice on just...staying alive? I'm not a big monk fan, but I'm currently playing one. Others are right that certain classes (i.e. monk, paladin, and ranger) need such high stats because their skills and abilities are so spread out that it is hard to cheat any one stat. Keeping a 1st-level monk alive is definitely a hardship. They seam optimized for unarmed and yet they lack the HP or AC to compete in melee combat. My recommendations with my monk. a) Dex is typically better than wisdom. Both give you an AC bonus, but move silently, hide, and tumble all rely on dex, and dex adds to ranged combat. Not many useful feats rely on Wis. Dodge also requires a 13 dex and is useful, plus it leads to mobility and spring attack. b) Give your monk a non-combat role. A rogue-type scout (move silently/scout), a diplomat (diplomacy), etc. Be the parties equipment person -- carry extra oil, tents, torches, etc. i.e. find an out of combat task you can perform. It's not as glamorous as the herotic fighter, but you have to know your limitations at a given level. c) Avoid melee. You just can't cut it at low levels. Carry a x-bow or javelins. Use oil, etc. Zen archery is a must with that high of a wisdom and no dex. d) Max tumble. Be able to get out of the way and/or fall back. Put ranks in jump for the synergy and consider Skill Focus (tumble) with that low dex. e) If you do find yourself in melee -- defense is more important than offense. A 1d6+1 punch isn't going to drop too many creatures even if you hit. Go defensive (partial or total), ready actions to move away, etc. Defensive is good -- especially with ranks in tumble. Adding +6 to your AC gives you a 19, which isn't bad. Don't worry if you can't hit or give up your attack. There is little chance you are going to win in a toe-to-toe AC vs hp battle anyway. Make them miss, buy time for other party members to finish them. f) Use your movement bonus. Tumble into rear ranks, move, move, and move. Don't worry that you aren't dropping anything, as long as you make enemies waste their turns chasing you, you are doing about all you can expect at lower levels. If possible, don't leave straight lines for them to charge. g) Look for ways to equalize combat. Grappling is good option if you win initiative. h) Pick up some cheap potions. Mage armor is great. Longstrider or expeditious retreat are useful as are protection from evil, shield of faith, barkskin, owl's wisdom, cat's grace, blur, etc. i) Try a reach weapon. Thanks, Brett
ninjarabbit 09-05-04, 02:43 PM	My advice is to use a crossbow and other ranged weapons like daggers and shruikens for a few levels until you start to pick up some steam.
amethal 09-06-04, 05:49 AM	My advice is to use a crossbow and other ranged weapons like daggers and shruikens for a few levels until you start to pick up some steam. That's good survival advice, but nobody plays a monk so he can fire crossbow bolts at people. Still, maybe you can put up with it until you get spring attack! Thats why I only ever play monks who are human - can get spring attack at 3rd level instead of 6th. Can't even multi-class into fighter to get a few bonus feats and speed things up, thanks to that darned multi-classing restriction.
fractal 09-07-04, 01:05 AM	Thats why I only ever play monks who are human - can get spring attack at 3rd level instead of 6th. Can't even multi-class into fighter to get a few bonus feats and speed things up, thanks to that darned multi-classing restriction. Unfortunately, Spring Attack requires +4 BAB, so a Monk still can't get it until level 6.
DragonsArt 09-07-04, 07:55 AM	If you are in the Forgotten Realms, a great feat to pick up at 1st level is the regional feat Militia. The 3.5 version gives proficiency for ALL martial weapons.... including the guisarme and other reach weapons. Then basically, tumble in and strike. At lower levels, you will do more damage with the guisarme anyway. Once you're in... go total defense or fight defensively and keep in a flanking position to allow the rogue or fighter to get maximum bonus. Remember, you're not a tank. You are a support meleer. Later, with improved trip, you will be able to move in, trip attack and then smack them when they're down. Preferably, you want to trip with the guisarme (+2 I believe), then stun attack using your free attack (from improved trip). Then, if you have expert tactician, you can hit them at +4 with no Dex.... and if you then have weakening touch or some other feat, you can do further damage. Don't worry grasshopper... you will shine.
robitusinz 09-07-04, 12:21 PM	I think advice on stats has been beaten to death here. Depending on how accessible magical items are to you, the following advice may or may not be appropriate. If you have some sort of crafting spellcaster in the party, or you have somewhat easy access to magical items (that is, you're not limited to whatever the DM randomly rolls on creatures, but have some sort of shop available), go ahead and buy a +1 AC bonus for every named bonus (instead of doing +2 or more on any one). In other words, get a Bracer of Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Gloves of Dex +2, and item of Wisdom +2 before you get a larger bonus in any one specific item. The list I just put up has a market value of 13K gp, and can be assembled by the time a PC hits about 5th level (don't have DM book in front of me). That's a grand total of 5 bonus AC for your Monk. At 5th level with his AC bonus, it's a +6 total. If you have a choice, go with the following order: 1. item of Wisdom +2 - increase your AC, plus give your stunning attack a +1 to its DC. 2. Ring of Protection +1 - increase your AC, but more important, increase your AC vs. Touch and flat-footed as well. 3/4. Amulet of Natural Armor or Bracers of Armor +1 - buy these next. 5. Gloves of Dex +2 - by this point, you will really want the +1 Reflex save bonus you'll get from this. Future items to keep in mind: Monk's Belt - 3.5 DM book (or 3.5 SRD) - bonus to your unarmed strike damage. Nice. Amulet of Mighty Blows - same source - enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes, just like a weapon. Sandals of Tiger's Leap - Sword and Fist, not sure if there's an update - double damage on jump kicks...pretty much the same thing as Flying Kick feat in Oriental Adventures. Go with the sandals, don't waste a feat. This gives you double damage on a charge with an unarmed attack roll. Overall advice - You will want to take the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack feat line ASAP. Spring Attack + Stunning Fists = your monk can run around the battlefield, stunning different opponents, and then the Rogue can mop them up with Sneak Attacks (great combo), also, this serves as an AWESOME Wizard or Cleric saver, if they start getting into trouble...go in and give them a round to run away. Spring Attack + Flying Kick = move in, attack, move out, next round, charge, get double damage (WARNING: AC DROPS on a charge...this would work as a finishing move more than a routine tactic). Mobility is VERY overlooked. +4 AC when moving through threatened areas is eclipsed by Tumble. However, there COULD be times when you just wanna rush through a gauntlet of enemies, and have them waste their AoOs on you. This is more metagame thinking, and a bit stupid, but something to keep in mind nonetheless. (Useful for pulling weaker characters out of a surrounded situation...have the monsters use their AoOs on you, and they can run away) Once you hit about level 11, you'll realize that the Monk can get some pretty nice bonuses from full attack (Flurry of Blows gives +2 attacks at this point). You should have a rather decent AC at this point in time. You may also want the Expertise feat, along with Improved Trip and possibly Improved Disarm. Imp. Trip and Imp. Disarm will extend the mileage on your Spring Attack...enemies reliant on weapons become very easy once you disarm them (take the average Fighter, and consider how crappy het gets without his trusty +3 longsword of wife-beating).
dragonghostmonk 09-07-04, 08:22 PM	[/QUOTE]enemies reliant on weapons become very easy once you disarm them (take the average Fighter, and consider how crappy het gets without his trusty +3 longsword of wife-beating).[/QUOTE] +3 longsword of wife-beating?!? this fighter has issues....and also items can really boost a monk better than scores...but at 1st level a monk doesnt have much access to them....
Vintar 09-07-04, 10:43 PM	One thing to look into for AC at mid-levels are weapons of Defending. Hold an enhanced sai - either throw it or use it to up your AC. Can't hurt to use the AC bonus in close - since you aren't using it in combat anyway. (unarmed strike)
robitusinz 09-08-04, 01:20 PM	+3 longsword of wife-beating?!? this fighter has issues....and also items can really boost a monk better than scores...but at 1st level a monk doesnt have much access to them.... Heh...it's a fantasy game, and I'm married. And yeah, I know a 1st level Monk won't have magic items to choose from...but the question was "at low levels", not just level 1. Just giving some tidbits of advice for when a Bracer of Armor +1 shows up, and the party Wizard or Sorc is like, "Oh me! That's mine!". Mr. Monk should backhand him and say "Mage Armor, dummy...and if you're getting hit, you need to stay back more."
ian turner 09-08-04, 03:30 PM	I'm old school (1ed) and funnily enough Monks were weak at low level then too. I'd be tempted to start with a level of something else... cleric maybe so you can heal yourself if you go down. I dont know if you're allowed to switch from barbarian to monk but their high hp also gives you a good start.
eggplantm 09-08-04, 04:45 PM	I'm sorry, but in my opinion you're stats are too low in many areas to make the most of your monk. The coolest monk feats are unavailable to you and you are not that much help in melee or at ranged combat. My advice is to work hard to survive this level and make your next level one in cleric. Maybe you can become a sacred fist later on. Monks are second tier fighters and can also be backup scouts and spies but unfortunately you haven't the strength or dexterity for either.
dragonghostmonk 09-09-04, 12:16 PM	the monk is very useful as a scout/spy esp. with a Cloak of Arachnida or slippers of spider climbing...but personally i think the cloak is more useful because it allows you to move in webs at half speed...another set of useful items are the monk's belt (DMG 3.5 NOT 3.0) and the Tunic of Vivid Harmony (D20 Arms & Armor [not equipment]) this tunic blurs the monk when he enters melee combat and when anyone engages him in melee combat they have to make a DC 18 Will save or be transfixed as per hypnotism and its not actually that expensive....and there is also something in there that if you are willing to give up gloves of DEX it will help, this item does a bunch of work against undead with the unarmed attack but i dont have it on me...ill add it in my next post..also think of working with your DM to trade out some proficiencies, for example, i traded out handaxe and siangham proficiency for Exotic: Bastard Sword/Katana and if you put the 'weightless' enhancement (+2) for weapons it allows you to use the Finesse feat with the waepon and use a weapon one size larger, so this actually allows you to use a Greatsword one-handed and as a monk weapon..but it costs 2k so.....
Okkam 09-09-04, 01:14 PM	Check out this Thread. Nifty Monk Info Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=48573) There are lots of builds here, but also a lot of tactical advice as well. Cheers! Okkam
thugpoetry 09-09-04, 11:05 PM	If you're going the tactical route, and are thinking about using disarm, grab yourself a pair of sai. They're monk weapons, so you're proficient, and it gives you a plus 2 or 4 (can't remember) to disarm checks. :) If you want to burn a feat to do it, imp. disarm would be a lot better with this. Just an idea.
Flame Warrior X 09-10-04, 04:00 AM	i cant help but laugh to see this..i remember the old school monk....base AC of 10 and no more than 10 HP max to start....no strength bonus in combat or AC adjustment from ANY stat...of course they eventually did 8-34 points of damage unarmed..but started at 1-3.from my perspective the 3.5 monk is fine.but hey my perspective is hardly relevant.Good luck with your monk.As a side note i would never saddle one of my players with a hideous stat package like that...the town drunk has better ability scores.
Aborath 09-14-04, 01:32 AM	Just wanted to add something: I've found that Lesser Aasimar make excellent monks. Check out the 3.5 Monster Manual for the Aasimar race and the Player's Guide to Faerun for the "Lesser Planetouched" variant rules. You'll get +2 to your Wisdom-to boost AC and Stunning Fist DC-, resistances, darkvision, and a few other nifty things, for no level adjustment. :)
dragonghostmonk 09-24-04, 02:01 PM	yeah... go with high stats in THIS order DEX, WIS, STR, CON, INT, CHA
DragonsArt 09-24-04, 02:08 PM	yeah... go with high stats in THIS order DEX, WIS, STR, CON, INT, CHA Ack! No way! STR, WIS, CON, DEX, INT, CHA If you plan to do damage, STR is your score. Wis will help stun DC and AC, CON will keep you alive, Dex will help AC, Int for more skills, Cha is the throw away. Check the monk optimization thread for specifics... but I believe he even recommends CON before WIS.
mean_liar 10-06-04, 11:26 AM	Its a judgement call. CON or WIS, depending on your focus. STR, CON/WIS, DEX, INT, CHA