Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheSeasonOfFire 06-24-07, 01:12 PM	Howdy guys and gals. I am trying to think of general advice for a rogue character who will be serving in an archer-type capacity for my party. I am looking for a way to get good attack bonuses but not totally lose out on the skill points a rogue has to offer. Would it be advisable to take a few Ranger levels? Perhaps Fighter? Thanks.
deviknyte 06-24-07, 01:22 PM	It's hard to be a ranged rogue. But if you are and your going for combat prowess... than your going to need a way to be as invisible as much as possible since you can't feint or flank. Wand of improved invis, buddy it up with the wizard, and definitely hide abilities (hide in plain sights and camo). If you going for combat you need the feats so the any combo of ranger/fighter works well.
Rerecros 06-24-07, 01:29 PM	The ninja, CAd, has the ability to become invisible on it's own. crossbow sniper, PHB 2, would be useful for you.
Tallow 06-24-07, 02:58 PM	Combo of Ninja and Rogue might work, then spend your feats on Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc. Improved Precise Shot will be very important by the time you get a +11 BAB. Since you aren't worrying about flanking since you are an archer, the Sneak Attack and Sudden Attack will stack seamlessly. Also Scout/Rogue with the swift ambusher feat would be cool.
Rerecros 06-24-07, 05:16 PM	Combo of Ninja and Rogue might work Thats a terrible idea. Ninja are esentually rogues who can't flank well and aren't as good at skills. To compensate, they have supernatural abilities of stealth, but these abilities are level based and you should never muilticlass a ninja because of this. If you want an archer with mobility choose scout, if you want a sneaky archer choose ninja, rogues are also an option, but for the love of all that is sacred don't combine any of these three classes into one character. Fighter/Initiate of the bow is also a good choice, but you can forget about being the group skill monkey.
The_Shaman 06-24-07, 05:41 PM	Ugh, OotB... If you want to be able to get a prestige class, better try to use, say, the Peerless Archer or the Nightsong enforcer. PA might be able to flank, depending on the interpretation. Justice of Weald and Woe would almost be too good, despite only having +2d6 SA for 10 levels. I think there might have been a weapon enhancement allowing sneak attack for up to 60 feet anyway. My best bid would be a combination of sniping (shot and hide, ideally with crossbow sniper but maybe without) and using your high inititive to catch enemies flat-footed. Spells to widen your SA range are on the assassin and Justice oWaW lists, and might be good options. Incidentally, the same offer some invisibility options, and iird even CAdv had some swift invisibility spells for rangers. Multiclassing to a pure caster is also possible, but it is another topic entirely. After the first shot(s), you could simply switch to a dagger after the enemies get their bearings, or run, hide, and snipe again. PBShot, precise shot, rapid shot, and (greater) manyshot can all be great for an archer thief, but you might have to take a few fighter (4 is always a good number) or ranger levels to help. 4+ levels with full BAB might get you that nice little 4th attack.
FrotzMe 06-24-07, 08:27 PM	Start with a level of Rogue, then two levels of Ranger, then back to Rogue. At first level, take Telling Blow (PHB2 feat allows Sneak Attack damage on all critical hits). At character level 3 (ranger level 2) you get Rapid Shot without having to pick up Point Blank Shot first. At the same time, pick up Rapid Reload; you'll want to use a light crossbow for the wider critical threat range. You could also do this with two levels of fighter, using the first fighter level bonus feat to grab PBS, then the second fighter level bonus feat to grab Rapid Shot. Going ranger, though, gets you some bells and whistles (like Favored Enemy and the Track feat), and you only drop to six (rather than two) skill points for those levels. You'll still be able to attempt Sneak Attacks against targets within 30', but you'll also be able to apply Sneak Attack damage to targets outside that range any time you achieve a critical hit. With a light crossbow, you'll get critical threat opportunities 10% of the time. You'll qualify for Improved Critical by the time you reach character level 12, which will double your threat range - critical threats now on 20% of your hits. Also, at character level 12, you will have reached rogue level 10, just in time to pick up Crippling Strike. This is where the character begins to shine. If you hit three times in your attack round, with a 20% chance to critical threat for each hit, you have about a 50% chance that one of those hits will allow you to apply 5d6 of Sneak Attack damage - along with 2 points of strength damage.
Tallow 06-24-07, 09:08 PM	Thats a terrible idea. Ninja are esentually rogues who can't flank well and aren't as good at skills. Did you totally skip the part I mentioned about not needing flanking cause your using a bow, and the fact that you get to use the Ninja invisibility? Andy
Rerecros 06-24-07, 11:30 PM	Did you totally skip the part I mentioned about not needing flanking cause your using a bow, and the fact that you get to use the Ninja invisibility? Andy Did you skip the part where I said that the ninjas abilities are only any good when you don't multiclass? Since the ninja and rogues are so similar (aside from flanking) you don't gain any perceivable benefit from multiclassing them, you are simply making a weaker character by having a smaller ki pool, armor prof and unarmored AC bonus, and trapfinding class feature twice. Not to mention having to wait longer to gain bot the ninja and rogue's higher level abilities.
Tallow 06-24-07, 11:41 PM	Did you skip the part where I said that the ninjas abilities are only any good when you don't multiclass? Since the ninja and rogues are so similar (aside from flanking) you don't gain any perceivable benefit from multiclassing them, you are simply making a weaker character by having a smaller ki pool, armor prof and unarmored AC bonus, and trapfinding class feature twice. Not to mention having to wait longer to gain bot the ninja and rogue's higher level abilities. chuckle... yeah, I suppose using a few ninja levels to gain a couple cool abilities to supplement your rogue and ranged attacks would be stupid... We aren't talking about an optimized Ninja dude. We aren't talking about an optimized Rogue either. We are talking about primarily a Rogue that also is a ranged attack artist. To do that, you need to take bits and pieces wherever you can find them, because as was so adroitly pointed out earlier in this thread, Rogues don't usually make the best ranged folk. So, you pull a few levels from the Ninja (yes, with the understanding that you only get to use their ghost step ability once or twice a day) and voila, you actually have something that can be useful for a round or two in the major combat. Not to mention that the Ninja has many similar skills as the Rogue. Its about useful synergy, not about optimization at the expense of character theme.
Rerecros 06-25-07, 12:06 AM	@ tallow, a ninja/rogue is a bad idea. It's not synergy, it's redundancy. So far FrotzMe has had the best idea on how to go about this.
arjomanes 06-25-07, 12:17 AM	Ninja 2/Ranger 2/Cleric 1/Chameleon 10/OotBI 5 Ninja 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 10/ OotbI 5 (DMM-free build) Max Wis for AC and attack (see below). Good Dex for AC and skills. Good Con for hit points. Dump Cha--feinting won't do you any good as a ranged rogue. Mediocre Str and Int are fine. Ninja 2. Wis to AC. Ghost step. Sudden Strike. 6 skill points. Ranger 2. Track. Rapid Shot. 6 skill points. Cleric 1. Cloistered Cleric if you can use UA. Trickery, Travel domain. 6 skill points (or 2 if you cant use UA). Chameleon 10. Divine and then Combat Focuses. +6 Wis. +4 Will, Fort Saves. 6th level divine spells (ranger, druid, cleric). 20 CL. +4 attack, damage. 4 skill points. OotBI. +3d8 damage. Ranged attacks while threatened. G Weapon Focus. 2 skill points. Feats 1 Able Learner (prereq, all skills become class skills) Point Blank Shot (prereq, +1 att,dmg) 3. Precise Shot (prereq, shoot into melee) 6. Zen Archery (Wis to attack, optional) 9. Weapon Focus [bow of choice] (prereq, +1 att) 12. Extend Spell (DMM, optional) 15. Persistent Spell (DMM, optional) 18. Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell (DMM, optional) Bonus Feats: Rapid Shot (Ra). G Weapon Focus (OotBI). Floating Feat--change each day (Cha). Neat spell: Hunter's Eye (PH2) (Ra, lv 2, swift spell) gives 1d6 SA/3 levels for one round --make a full attack with +6d6 SA on each attack at chameleon level 10. Divine metamagic will allow you to have divine power on all the time and a +6 adjusted composite longbow. If you don't want persistent divine metamagic, you can take other archery feats as your end feats. If you don't go DMM, dump the level of Cleric and take Ninja 3. If you decide to max Dex rather than Wis, then you can take another feat instead of Zen Archery.
ishpu 06-25-07, 12:28 AM	how about rogue/unseen seer go then make sure you dont get rid of illusion so you can imp invis yourself... that way you're sneaky, you still get some bonus damage, you get spellcasting good will save and bab is same as rogue, a little bit less hps but worth it imo.
arjomanes 06-25-07, 12:36 AM	If I went unseen seer, I'd go with beguiler or spellthief (or both with master spellthief). Or warmage with levels in spellwarp sniper. Rogue doesnt have any spellcasting for Unseen Seer to progress. Chameleon makes Unseen Seer redundant, since you can grab Hunter's Eye with chameleon. If you're going roguish spellcaster without wanting to lose spell progression (beguiler, wizard, spellwarp sniper) then Unseen Seer is great for its full arcane casting levels. If you try to enter unseen seer with only one or two caster levels, you'll be way behind the game in caster level. And the hit to non-divination spells will hurt you even more. What's nice about chameleon is it advances CL at 2X chameleon level, so a X5/chameleon 7 is actually a 12th level character with 14th level CL.
ishpu 06-25-07, 12:46 AM	I don't know I've never really seen a need for beguiler, but maybe it's just that I don't see the real potential in the class. spell warp sniper seems pretty lame to me. I'd rather go like arcane trickster than spellwarp, but that's just my opinion. Chameleon does seem pretty cool, I didn't happen to see what race you were though. I guess you could go lurk too but i dont know much about psionics really. just thought i'd throw out some more options for you.
arjomanes 06-25-07, 12:55 AM	Chameleon has to be human, changeling or doppleganger. But I love the chameleon. Probably my favorite prestige class. Beguiler can fill the rogue role with skills, trapfinding and illusions/enchantments. Gnome beguilers are awesome. Changeling beguiler/recasters are cool too. Take Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation with advanced learning and you're a damage dealer too. For as focused as it is, the beguiler spell list is very versatile, and the UMD helps too. But really, its all about the illusions. As long as your DM plays illusions right your beguiler is awesome; if the DM metagames his monsters to always disbelieve illusions, then play something else. Spellwarp sniper is only good if you want to add sneak attack to evocation or conjuration damage spells. It has its place, but I'm not a fan of the direct damage type character. Arcane Trickster is a nice class. One of the best roguish spellcasting prestige classes.
Fireclave 06-25-07, 01:04 AM	I suggest going with the psyrogue. Overall, you lose 3d6 sneak attack damage and 2 skill points per level, but you can more than make up for those loses with the psyrogue's powers, and Offensive Precognition is pretty good if you want to bump up your attack rolls. You still have the problems of not being able to feint or flank with ranged weapons, but this can be slightly mitigated with Cloud Mind. Or, if you don't mind spending a feat or two, use the Expanded Knowledge feat to pick up Psionic Grease (which will make it much easier to get in Sneak Attacks in general), and perhaps Quicken Power or Enlarge Power feats to do this trick faster or from a farther distance. The psyrogue suffers from having a really small pool of power points, so if you probably will want to make Int one of your highest stats get as many bonus PP as possible (with the added benefit of upping your skill point and DC of your powers). And if you pick up Crossbow Sniper, you'll already be hurting for feats, so you might as well invest in a Quick Loading crossbow as well, instead of taking Rapid Shot.
Leress 06-25-07, 01:09 AM	At the OP: What books are you allowed to use?
TheSeasonOfFire 06-25-07, 03:55 PM	At the OP: What books are you allowed to use? I think pretty much any WotC official product is fair game. Oh, and these suggestions have been fantastic, I appreciate the help guys!
The_Shaman 06-25-07, 04:27 PM	BTW, what race is your character?
Gyrofthewastes 06-25-07, 04:40 PM	Telling Blow is a terrible waste of a feat in my opinion, since criticals are so unreliable and rogues gain so few feats. The feat you REALLY want from PHB2 for an archer-rogue is Deadeye Shot: When you ready an attack against foe that an ally hits, said foe is denied its Dex bonus (giving you a sneak attack). Effectively replaces flanking for the ranged rogue. Also, needless to say, a Ring of Blinking is a must-buy at higher levels when you can afford it.
The_Shaman 06-25-07, 04:59 PM	It depends, I can definitely see telling blow if you are using, say, kukri or another weapon with a high crit threat range. However, bows are not the best medium. But yes, any form of spellcasting (including the beguiler, for skills if nothing else) can provide a ton of options.
Hideous Phidias 06-25-07, 05:14 PM	Try the feat Daring Outlaw out of Complete Scoundrel. It combos swashbuckler and Rogue. I would take a few levels in Rogue and the rest in swashbuckler. You get the full sneak attack from the rogue. But as a swashbuckler gives you a 10, hitdie, better base attack bonus, and 4+int to skills. Feats that are good for rogue to invest in: telling blow improved critical quick draw flick of the wrist combat expertise improved feint
TheSeasonOfFire 06-25-07, 09:26 PM	BTW, what race is your character? Human! :)
poxjedi 06-25-07, 10:01 PM	Ninja w/ Zen Archery, and maybe two levels of Ranger and/or Fighter for feats and weapon proficiciency, although sidetracking 4 levels might be a bit much.
angryscrub 06-26-07, 11:13 AM	Human! :) human is good. my $.02 is that if you're a rogue archer, really you're a rogue sniper. subtle difference, but a fighter or ranger can much better afford to just stand there and shoot buttloads of arrows. a rogue has to be a little bit more careful. sniper means that five of your skills are spoken for, imho. spot, listen, move silently, hide, and tumble all need to be maxed out. i'd also say UMD, just because it's too useful not to take. any rogue built around sneak attack needs something to do when fighting crit immune enemies, and UMD almost always leaves you something to do, if you've been clever about your item acquisition. it may be obvious, but dex is your most important stat. honestly, pretty much everything else is almost to be considered a dump stat. it increases your chance to hit, betters your AC, and makes it more likely you're going first. put every point you can into dex, and try to get the best dex boosting items you can. that +5 book of dex is totally at the top of your list. i'd actually rank stat importance this way. DEX obvious, as stated above INT skill points baby, you need extra to get non sniping stuff CON/WIS always good to stay alive, and wis ups your spot CHA helps your UMD, and it's nice to not have people hate you STR yes, dump strength, see below yes, i said it, dump strength. take crossbow sniper. the half dex bonus to damage is nice, and strength doesn't affect crossbow damage anyways, but more important is the extension of your sneak attack range to 60'. that extra 30 feet can be the difference between an enemy being able to move up next to you and attack in the same round. melee is not your friend as a rogue archer build. having a strength penalty is never fun, but i really wouldn't worry about having more than a 10 in str, if it would mean a sacrifice in another stat. with crossbow sniper, you improve your to hit and damage every time you increase your dex. it's one of the few ways i know of to be SAD for the effectiveness of long range attacks. did i mention take crossbow sniper? if you have races of the wild, look at the able sniper and woodland archer feats. able sniper gives you a bonus to hit when firing from beyond 30' (crossbow sniper synergy again) and a bonus to your check to hide again when sniping. woodland archer lets you move while sniping, which is tasty. while you're in the book, i know you're playing human, but check out the halfling rogue level 10 substitution level, for some really sick sniping goodness (lets you make multiple attacks, then hide again as a FREE action). if you can use unearthed arcana, very seriously consider the wilderness rogue variant. this lets you add camouflage and hide in plain sight (as per the ranger abilities) to the list of special abilities you can select. very, very useful for a sniper, as it allows you to take a shot, and then hide again with no penalty to your hide check (as long as you are in natural surroundings anyway). a pure rogue could pick these up by level 13, and have a hide check that would blow away most enemies spot checks. snipe, wave to them, hide, repeat. though against anything not immune to sneak attacks, it would not take much in the way of repeating. even tastier, the ranger version of hide in plain sight is (ex) and not (su). personally, i think it's possible to do it pure rogue, and have a fairly effective crossbow sniper. it is rather feat intensive, though, and interspersing a few levels (2 or maybe 4) of fighter could ease that, and give you access to better armor and shields, but it would also delay camouflage and HiPS if you were doing the wilderness rogue variant. well, just my thoughts on the matter. high dex, go crossbow. heh. probably could have just had that as my whole post.
The_Shaman 06-26-07, 11:30 AM	Human! :) While normally a good option, it practically ruins the JoW&W idea unless you ignore all the fluff. Pity... but if you want some creative multiclassing, remember that it could work out too. I think most of the ideas here are good; if you want to stress rogue, lvl 16 allows you to get 3/4 special abilities and, if the last 4 levels are at full BAB, an extra attack.
lint trap 06-26-07, 11:32 AM	For an archer rogue, I'd trade out the Sneak Attack for a fighter's bonus feats (ala Unearthed Arcana). SA isn't much good for ranged attacks, and 30 ft. is too close to the action for an archer anyway.
TheSeasonOfFire 06-30-07, 10:45 AM	Start with a level of Rogue, then two levels of Ranger, then back to Rogue. At first level, take Telling Blow (PHB2 feat allows Sneak Attack damage on all critical hits). At character level 3 (ranger level 2) you get Rapid Shot without having to pick up Point Blank Shot first. At the same time, pick up Rapid Reload; you'll want to use a light crossbow for the wider critical threat range. Would not taking Precise Shot at levels 1-5 come back to haunt me, or would I be okay without it till 6th level?
Tectorman 06-30-07, 10:57 AM	After the first shot(s), you could simply switch to a dagger after the enemies get their bearings, or run, hide, and snipe again. PBShot, precise shot, rapid shot, and (greater) manyshot can all be great for an archer thief, but you might have to take a few fighter (4 is always a good number) or ranger levels to help. 4+ levels with full BAB might get you that nice little 4th attack. Use the bayonet attachments from Complete Scoundrel. Alternatively, one recent (less than a year old) issue of Dragon magazine has a steel crossbow. Works as normal, but you can use it as a club.
Waldo_di 06-30-07, 01:57 PM	Helpful levels to pick up as Rogue are counting down... (I do not have all the books) 6. 2 Barbarian (rageing rogue with improved uncanny dodge at 6th level nice. good HP ups your fort. save and good skills full BAB progression. 5. 2 Fighter (two more feats, fort. save, Full BAB) 4. 2 ranger great skills to saves fort. and reflex, Archer style two free feats full BAB progression and you can use wands of CLW and favored enemy. 3. any Assassin (if your evil) poisions easier to use, useful spells, death attack, good skills, more sneak attack. 2. any Scout from Cadv. skirmish, a whole lot of roguey stuff 1. 1 in Shadow Dancer good skills but HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT nuf' said. Maybe 3 swash buckler in there if your smart (i mean your character has a high int) ... int for damage rolls full BAB, skills, free weapon finesse and more fortitude and +1 grace (+'s on reflex saves)