Post/Author/DateTime	Post
krossbow 02-16-07, 04:18 PM	Hey, just wondering; I'm currently starting a level 1 campaign as a wizard. My friend who plays with us usually DMs, and the guy drives me insane with some of his hard headed notions. For example, he believes that TWF is powerful, that monks are great classes, and that Fighters are incredible. He is playing a PC this time though, and solely because I insisted in an argument with him that Fighters and monks suck, He has chosen to play a fighter. Even after showing that a level 3 fighter with an 18 wis and iron will has a 50% chance to lose from a single spell vs. my level 1 wizard, he still refuses to back down on this (Unless, of course as he said, a fighter randomly decides to be a crappy rogue and take cross class ranks in move silently and hide with a 18 dex so he can assasinate my wizard :rolleyes: ) So my question is this: to build an optimized wizard, is there anything I should change about my wizard? He's a level 1 enchanter, sun elf. He has a 20 int and has as his barred schools evocation and necromancy. He is focusing on save or die enchantments, especially sleep, and carries around a scythe. I took as my level 1 feat magical aptitude (It might be magical prodigy, I'll recheck the name later; it's from the faerun book) which allows me to gain bonus spells and treat my DCs as if my caster stat were 2 higher. I currently have not taken spell focus (enchantment), but I have a DC 17 for my sleep spells. My Dex is 18 and my con is 16 (rolled well, Str, wis and cha are low though). I have 7 HP. What feats should I take and what items should I buy to make my wizard show this fighter/monk proponent up completely?
Loki5654 02-16-07, 04:23 PM	First off, are you really sure you want to do this? This would only seem to breed acrimony and competition between players. Any chance you could just let him play his character his way and you play your character your way without the "Mine's Better than Yours" nonsense? The game is supposed to be about everybody having fun together, you know. That being said, if you really want help check out the Character Optimization (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) boards.
nightwyrm 02-16-07, 04:33 PM	First of all, stop being a jerk. Your friend wants to be a fighter, let him. We both know wiz 20 >> fighter 20, but you're a 1st lv wizard. After you finish throwing your two 1st lv spells, you'll be glad the big fighter is stopping the orcs from making mincemeat out of of you. In any case, D&D is about everyone having fun, not PvP competitions and ego trips.
Stardust 02-16-07, 04:37 PM	Firstly, I second what Loki said. Secondly, if you absolutely must show up the fighter, then just wait until any situation in which you're not fighting an enemy on level ground. Assuming he's like 95% of fighters I've encountered and has thrown all his feats and money into being crazy good in melee, an encounter with a lone archer with elevation (such as a ledge or any other situation where he can't easily be reached) will be enough to have him throwing himself prone to avoid arrows whilst you knock the offender out with a sleep spell. Of course if you find yourself in the middle of a pincer attack from two bands of goblins, then suddenly you're going to feel really squishy and vulnerable whilst he's stood there in his armour with his superior hp. Really, though, if the guy likes fighters and monks, cool. I know I don't like playing the meathead meatshield, so if he wants to take that role, then let him! You play the role you prefer with a spellcaster. Perhaps both of you will realise that the point of the different classes is to cooperate so that you play to each others strengths and cover each others weaknesses?
Totentanz 02-16-07, 04:44 PM	fighter huh? Well, rather than judge your desire to squish him, I'll just help out a bit. I wouldn't specialize. If the campaign is going to go on for a while, eventually a generalist wizard wins out. Look in Races of the Wild for the generalist Elf Wizard variant. It's worth it. Then see if your DM will let you have both that variant AND the domain wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana. Take 10 levels of Incantatrix, followed by 5 levels of Archmage. Alacritous(sp) Cogitation from Complete Mage is your friend as well. Ahh hell, go to the CO boards like the first poster said. I'll help there and so will plenty of people far better than I. Just read the posting guidelines and follow them.
Gnarl 02-16-07, 04:49 PM	Well I think your friend is right on one thing: if you want to compete, do it in game. Comparing classes based on 1 vs. 1 pvp is bull crap. You should evaluate a class by their contribution to a party. As others have mentioned, what happens if your spell fails? Well I'll tell you what will happen, you'll run away while the fighter succeeds where you have failed. Low level fighters are a lot more reliable and robust than wizards. I admit that the reserve feats in Complete Mage really help compensate for the wizard's lack of spell at lower levels.
RadicalTaoist 02-16-07, 04:59 PM	Echoing other sentiments; you really shouldn't have to prove someone wrong to have fun at the game. If you do, something's wrong with you. Just play a wizard and play it well. Look around the CO boards for ideas if you need 'em, as suggested. If your encounters are played to the difficulty and tactics a CR expects of the party, then the fighter will be shown up on his own by the mid levels easily enough. If not, then everyone still has fun and he doesn't feel stuck with a useless class.
Felbarren 02-16-07, 05:43 PM	Also, just tossing in with the Generalist Wizard Racial Substitution. Make your first level feat Collegiate Wizard, from Complete Arcane, I believe. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) With Generalist and the feat, you're looking at 7+Int Mod 1st level spells known at first level, and 5 free(yes, FREE) spells ever level after for your spell book. You can cover all your bases, and the money you save from learning spells mean more scrolls and items for you.
Nephlite 02-16-07, 05:56 PM	Hey, just wondering; I'm currently starting a level 1 campaign as a wizard. My friend who plays with us usually DMs, and the guy drives me insane with some of his hard headed notions. For example, he believes that TWF is powerful, that monks are great classes, and that Fighters are incredible. He is playing a PC this time though, and solely because I insisted in an argument with him that Fighters and monks suck, He has chosen to play a fighter. Even after showing that a level 3 fighter with an 18 wis and iron will has a 50% chance to lose from a single spell vs. my level 1 wizard, he still refuses to back down on this (Unless, of course as he said, a fighter randomly decides to be a crappy rogue and take cross class ranks in move silently and hide with a 18 dex so he can assasinate my wizard :rolleyes: ) So my question is this: to build an optimized wizard, is there anything I should change about my wizard? He's a level 1 enchanter, sun elf. He has a 20 int and has as his barred schools evocation and necromancy. He is focusing on save or die enchantments, especially sleep, and carries around a scythe. I took as my level 1 feat magical aptitude (It might be magical prodigy, I'll recheck the name later; it's from the faerun book) which allows me to gain bonus spells and treat my DCs as if my caster stat were 2 higher. I currently have not taken spell focus (enchantment), but I have a DC 17 for my sleep spells. My Dex is 18 and my con is 16 (rolled well, Str, wis and cha are low though). I have 7 HP. What feats should I take and what items should I buy to make my wizard show this fighter/monk proponent up completely? First, must you show him up? If you must Colorspray (close range) not sleep (long range) unless you are starting far away from each other is better. Look at the effects at low levels, better than sleep. Range limit is problem. But than enchantment is what you are specializing. Is this PvP or show howq in a party you offer more? Because the latter is easily proven. If Duel, you have to hope it works. But if it does. You auto hit when he is knocked out/Coup De Gra so even with non-proficiency scythe you'll hit & crit too. So he'll have a massive fort save or die. However, it all depends on luck, odds are in your favor though.
Sargeras 02-16-07, 06:00 PM	Firstly, I just want to say that I'm very proud of everyone that has said that fighting someone on your team or in your party is a bad idea. DnD is about encouraging team play and having fun with your friends. I mean, even the DM doesn't actually want to kill players (though sometimes it happens), he/she wants the players to win. It's not very fun to play halfway through a campaign and then that's it, because everyone's dead. So...play together, it's more fun that way. Secondly, all that being said, my friends and I are fairly competitive at times, and so, here's an idea, if you and your fighter friend really want to duke it out. Make sure you both know it's all in good fun, though, so there are no hurt feelings when one of you win. Out of game (and you don't necessarily need a DM for this, though it's a good idea to have someone to adjudicate rules and such, so a DM would be helpful), set up parameters for a duel. Choose what level characters you will make for the duel, and things like how far apart you will start (100 feet is usually okay), a set amount of gold worth of items for each of you (a fair amount for both of you- just use the wealth by Character level guidelines in the DMG) and maybe a day's worth (in game) of preparation time. And then after making nameless characters at whatever level you (both) decide on, equipped with whatever equipment they could afford at the chosen level, starting however far apart with spells like Mage Armor already in place (part of the preparation time), start dueling. Whoever wins will win, and then that's over. Since you aren't attached to the characters (which is why you don't name them), there should be no hard feelings for one or the other of you killing them off. Then go back to your campaign game and have fun together, protecting the other from whatever they're weak against, and relying on each other's strengths. That's the fun of DnD- working together. Fighters are important in a party, just like Clerics, Rogues, and Wizards are. Remember that you guys are gathering to play for fun and have a good time. Peace! :duel: :P
Crashy75 02-16-07, 09:08 PM	Don't do this to yourself. He's the DM. You're a player. His character will have the 'favored of the DM' template and you're wizard will lose his spellbook if you ever manage to show his precious up.
Kresalak 02-16-07, 09:13 PM	You won't be showing him up for about 5 more levels, since at this point his Fighter has a save or die-it's called "Greatsword" and the save is not getting hit.
kadeity 02-16-07, 10:19 PM	Dont do it yourself.:rolleyes: let someone else in the party play a Warblade and nature will take its course.
furious kender 02-17-07, 12:16 AM	I first agree with everything that has been posted before. He is your team member and a friend, or at least I hope he is The problem in your logic regarding your competition is that a caster's power advancement is exponential, from pathetic to aweinspiring. A fighter's advancement is fairly linear, and flattens after level 4-6. People who play primarily in low-level campaigns frequently say similar things. Of course this is when the fighter is at its most powerful and casters at their weakest. Give it some time, and he will see. When your character is running multiple fighters (level 9), he will start to understand.
xColapsco 02-17-07, 01:02 AM	Well I think your friend is right on one thing: if you want to compete, do it in game. Comparing classes based on 1 vs. 1 pvp is bull crap. You should evaluate a class by their contribution to a party. As others have mentioned, what happens if your spell fails? Well I'll tell you what will happen, you'll run away while the fighter succeeds where you have failed. Low level fighters are a lot more reliable and robust than wizards. I admit that the reserve feats in Complete Mage really help compensate for the wizard's lack of spell at lower levels.well, not always is that the case. Generally, in a normal campaign, the DM's preference regulates class success. For instance, if a DM thinks that espionage missions sound cool (( or if he's just been playing a bit too heavy into Splinter Cell)) he's more than likely going to give the friendly rouge a bit more light. However, a magic user does have the overall advantage of versatility. If need be, a wizard can act just like a rouge, where a fighter can not. Hell, he can even out fight your melee character if he has the right spells. My honest advice for our esteemed author is this, If you wanna trully defeat your fighter friend then do it in such a way that his point becomes invalid. Play by his rules, and win. As a wizard, that should not be a problem. Good luck.
icedrake 02-17-07, 02:22 AM	From an optimization stand-point, there are a lot of options open to you depending on the books your dm will let you take. First off, you want to consider the master specialist PrC from complete mage. You can enter it at the 3rd level and grants some awesome bonuses. You should look at Unearthed Arcana to see if your dm will let you play one of the wizard-specialists from that book, also think about PHB II and look at the spell-like abilities in there to see if there are any good ones for you. You'll want SF and GSF: Enchantment ASAP. PHBII or CoMage has Metamagic School Specialization, it lets you reduce the cost of any metamagic feats you apply to spells of a given school by one. CoMage has reserve feats, things that let you get a small spell-like ability while you have a certian type of spell prepared but don't cast it. Consider the Thrallherd PrC from CArcane, don't take more than a few levels since I believe it reduces your caster level. From there, I'm not sure what else to say, other than you want to likely employ a lot of control spells. I've recently been enlightened to the "battlefield control" that wizards have and its massive. From wall spells to black tenticales to summons, there's a bunch of stuff they can do. Basically, you need to survive until level 5 when you get awesome 3rd level spells, until then hold out. Of course, you'll want to get access to the spell compendium if you can.
penchant 02-17-07, 04:20 AM	Everything that should be said, has been. However I would like to add that your stats given show a propensity for high power games. If you play the same scenarios out with the standard elite array you will have a different outcome than with 18's and 20's. Of course the fighter vs. mage has been around as long as D&D, and the answer has always been that if a mage is in melee with the fighter when he picks the fight, he loses. If he is not in melee then he wins. Now there are a million answers that people will come up with to the grappled and bludgeoned mage, but that is another thread.