Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 08:54 AM	Heyas folks. I'm going to throw a question out to you, about exactly as it was put to me. A guest player to our group, a friend of a friend from his dormitory, wants to become a regular. We all like the guy, he's bright, versed in the rules, and is not a powergamer; ie he fits our playing style well. Now, he approached us (the two of us co-DMs) with a character idea that he wants to play. He doesn't have it fleshed out any more than I do, as I put the question to you: He wants to start a first level druid, human or elven, that has a non-core spell list. He wants to be able to: A: Cast every fire spell there is; Druid, Arcane, etc. B: He wants every said fire spell to be considered "divine", in the manner of Flamestrike, ie 'half fire, half divine' damage. C: He doesn't want anything else outside of the core rules, RAW D: He doesn't want to multiclass, and the "sacred spell" feat doesn't work on arcane spells anyway. (A feat that I looked at, I just bring it up to say it was thought about already). E: He is willing to make any other class concession to do this, such as giving up all "summon natures allies" spells, or any other class of spells, or anything else we DMs can think of to balance it, should we allow it. So, if you were me(us), what would you do, if you were entertaining the thought of allowing such a character? How would you lay out this "class"? I don't want to create a whole prestige class or anything; too messy. I want ideas for a modified core-druid. Also, if you are stingy DMs, like we are, why would you NOT allow it? Oh, duh, almost forgot to mention: 3.5 rules, of course. Hit me with your best shots, guys & gals. Thanks, Sincerely, NeueRegel
Maraxus 06-10-05, 09:24 AM	The druid of the holy torch: First ideas: Gain: -Every fire spell, except for meteor swarm, one level higher then on any other class' spell list. A free metamagic feat, that increases the spell slot by one and turns half of the damage into holy damage. -Ability to turn into a small or medium fire elemental at 12th level, once per day. One additional elemental wild shape. -Spontanous casting of spells with the fire descriptor Loose: -Wild shape (animal and any other elemental then fire) -Spontaneous Casting of summonings I would throw this in as a first suggestion, it's probably a bit underpowered, but wait what he sais. :)
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 09:36 AM	Good start, thanks. I specifically don't want to invent any new feats though; I only want to modify what "already is". There's a god-awful enough D&D as is, without wanting to go and create more of it! Not sure about changing the wildshape just yet; that never even came up; it was all a pretty off-hand conversation; Dude's real laid-back, calm... Not the spastic kinda mile-a-minute cartoon-inspired maniac spurting ideas left and right. ;) Keep'um coming!
NeueRegel 06-10-05, 08:56 PM	:bump:
Rahie_Leios 06-10-05, 09:49 PM	Not sure about losing wild shape but maybe setting it at higher levels (since he doesnt want to multiclass anyway) not being able to transform into any other elementals. Let him have the fire spells at one level higher and auto deal half fire half divine. Also drop the summon spells like he said altogether and let him spontaniously cast the fire spells. that seems not to be overpowered and it gives him what he wants The ability to do the fire elemental at lvl 12 as Maraxus suggested is also a good idea. Also if you get it figured out good will you repost the class as you did it
Chemus 06-11-05, 02:42 AM	There's a god-awful enough D&D as is, without wanting to go and create more of it!Maybe make further changes to the spell list. Like remove create water and entanglement and such spells...? Perhaps take out every spell with the [water] descriptor, and all 7-9th of the [air] and [stone] descriptors, to give it a more elemental washout? Or, gut the list and just have the fire, and healing spells? Or remove [water] and [plant] spells...as they'd be far down the list for a fire diety in many cases. Might make him better able to resist fire, or protect others from fire...using spells since you are averse to yet more rules and regs. ;) How does the Pyrokineticist fit what he's looking for? House ruling that he can make half of that damage Holy may overpower it, but that is for those throwing hapless monsters in his way...:mage: Perhaps if you don't want to make the spell list smaller, make the animal companion and Wild shape abilities like the ranger's: at half character level. He could still gain them at first, but they'd be less powerful at 20th. With Wild shape, the HD of the shape assumed would be limited to half HD, perhaps fire elementals only, beginning at 5th. Progression like regular wild shape, but as a fire elemental. Maybe bolstered by the increased Elemental shapes/day later...'s up to y'all. I hope one or more of those ideas helps. Or maybe I'm justthe spastic kinda mile-a-minute cartoon-inspired maniac spurting ideas left and right.:sigh: ;) Minus the cartoon-inspired bit.
Galahdeon 06-11-05, 03:23 AM	question: Is this guy a natural pyromaniac or does he dream about being one? Personaly i think this guy is great insperation for a new class, their name firestarters, or am i to late? :shifty: well bye
NeueRegel 06-11-05, 06:34 AM	Okay, first, a couple of you asked, "What's this guy's motive/inspiration?" Well, my co-DM, the player ("Pyro"), and I sat down in a 3-way IM chat tonight for a while, and hammered some of that out. Pyro's druid is inspired in part by a character in Terry Brook's novels name Allanon. (I actually should have guessed right away, I've read them). Pyro wants to play a druid that is "going it alone", in a sense, but needs a more powerful offensive spell base to do it. Here's what the three of us have hammered out, as of 6am local. Yes, that means, "All-nighter"; thus, by the last few hours, we may have really lost track of game balance... And, please forgive any lack of logical format. Druid class (3.5), as written, modified: Give up: Animal Companion; Summon Natures Ally (all) Elemental Swarm Spell List: Add: (same as wizard level) Burning Hands Shocking Grasp Scorching Ray Fireball Lightning Bolt Chain Lightning Delayed Blast Fireball Include: (already as druid level) Produce Flame Fire Trap Flame Blade Flaming Sphere Heat Metal Call Lightning (Flame Strike) Call Lightning Storm Wall of Fire Fire Seeds Fire Storm Gain: All of these [Fire]/[Elec] do 1/2 divine damage, ala (Flame Strike). Spontaneous Casting: [Fire]/[Elec] listed above. Special: Divine-affected listed spells are "smartfire" : will not ignite/harm living natural flora. Right now, all other class abilities/spells remain unaffected, except the idea of restricting his (eventual) elemental wildshape to fire was briefly discussed but it never came up again. Any thoughts welcome. We are still only 50% likely to even allow such a non-core class in the campaign. NeueRegel Heat Metal looks really out of place on this list... That's it, I'm going to bed...
amanodel 06-12-05, 12:36 AM	So Incredibly unbalanced!!!! FIREBALL and LIGHTNING BOLT? NO WAY!!! Those are wizard and sorcerer spells. If you are going to give them to the druid, he should get them a level later. It sounds like this guy is actually a min/maxer and is just pulling it behind your eyes. You must increase all spell levels from arcane magic becuase of the difference b/w arcane and divine magic. In effect, you have created the ultimate no no of manipulating the rules! A healer and a blaster!!! You really need to reconsider the spell levels!
Schmendrick 06-12-05, 01:23 AM	I agree with some of the sentiments of amanodel, but not quite to his degree of zeal. One thing I do have to wonder about is the inclusion of lightning spells; perhaps I'm not as familiar with the character you're basing it off of, but the inclusion of lightning after proclaiming a fire theme seems like simple "well, I want more offensive spells." That said, it's not *soo* bad. The thing that throws a red flag for me is the half divine damage part. One of the built-in weaknesses of any offensive spell is resistance (through subtypes or straight up energy resistance) - or, rather, it is one of the built-in strengths of certain monsters. Making damage half divine is a powerful move. Seeing as the druid is arguably the most powerful class anyway, I'd consider hitting it where it hurts: Wild Shape. Wild Shape is the class ability that leads some builds to treat all physical stats as dump stats, and if you increase the casting ability of a druid, you only encourage that further. In any case, I don't really feel like I can contribute further without knowing more about the archetype you're modeling, so I'll probably just shut up now unless/until someone takes the time to explain it. :)
Galahdeon 06-12-05, 01:35 AM	ok i remember that name i just never read the books that had a more detailed description, the only part i know about him is that he was a shade come back to prevent the death of the world or something like that. they class looks powerful so good luck slashing it down and see you :D
Quirriff 06-12-05, 01:37 AM	I really don't see anything that needs changing to have a pyrodruid (Although as a DM I hate Summon Natures ally being spontanious).
NeueRegel 06-12-05, 04:05 AM	Advice so far, duly noted. I don't have time to explain Alanon as I remember him; I'll try to do so after work tomorrow; Lightning inclusion a combination of Alanon-druid-fire description, divine inclusion same, as this druid fire able to hurt demons/outsiders to a degree. Lightning/Fire combination also a nod at the Advanced D&D vision of a druid. Smendrick: Get this: In a quick e-mail, Pyro says he's willing to give up wildshape ability completely. Says, "It doesn't fit the character anyway". I recall this as correct as well. Neue
NeueRegel 06-12-05, 12:18 PM	You know what; in the light of day... My co-DM and I have been thinking, that mayhaps Amanodel's gut reaction, if over-stated, might be right. The more we look at what Pyro wants to play, the more we think that we are going to talk to him about his class altogether; We are going to suggest that he instead play a wizard or sorcerer, and just "name" it a "druid", and play it as such; It might be better to have him comform his vision to a class, than a class to his vision. We'll keep you updated, and any new suggestions in this light would be welcomed as well, as well as remarks about the original direction too. Neue
CommanderFalken 06-12-05, 12:47 PM	Several things first, i suggest not giving him the elec spells. after all he wants to play a PYROdruid. Also, the divine damage seems a bit unbalanced. third ive read the books you are talking about. Allanon's got some weird spells. anyway i suggest either making your own class or making a sorcerer (with spells like wall of fire, burning hands, etc.) . The Druids (in the shannara series) aren't worshipping nature or anything, so i say sorceror, but call it a "druid"
Niveus Lynx 06-12-05, 12:55 PM	Spell Thematics, "Fire". NEXT!
Nayk 06-12-05, 01:05 PM	Let him have spontaneous casting from Unearthed Arcana. Let him choose the correct feat to make any spell being half-divine, and let him choose all FIRE spells for druid along the other books as well: Produce flame Resist energy Flame blade Flame strike Fire trap Flaming sphere Heat metal You could also when they is no good spell (like level 3), just let him research freely an existing "druid" spells but with a different energy. Like maybe "Call Meteor Balls, Lesser" instead of call lightning. Which would create small fire balls in the same way as call lighting. Spike stones could be replace by "Fire vaps" or something similar to things that get fire energy release. That do 1d8 fire damage instead of piercing. Magic Fang, that release the extra damage as FIRE damage, and so on... Ice Storm could get replaced by "Meteor storm" which functions in the exact same way but with FIRE damage. Call Metor Balls, as call lightning storm, and so on... You could also let him take any wizard spell but at a higher level then the wizard level. Fireball at level 4 instead of 3. Nayk
simon_tage 06-12-05, 01:13 PM	I have read those books and other than the name druid, none of the "druids" in them were druidy at all. They are more your standard powerful mage behind the scenes characters that have to step in once and a while to help. I agree, ask him to play a wizard or sorc and see if that will fly. Remember that if he wants he can create/research other classes spells with DM permission and/or changes. As far as letting the sacred spell feat work for arcane spells, if a DM wanted to make that concession for a character then I wouldn't see any problem with it.
SmiloDan 06-12-05, 02:50 PM	I would suggest he play a sorcerer that uses a lot of fire spells. If he wants to use the druid spells, let him know those as "unusual sorcerer spells." Maybe make it a trade off so he can't use non-fire spells. Then suggest he look into becoming a fire elemental savant PrC. I think it's in the Complete Arcane. Or just make up a pyro class. I'm sure there's a ton of them. The half-divine energy thing seems like a kind of meta-magic feat thing to me, not a class ability.
NeueRegel 06-12-05, 10:51 PM	Thanks everybody! Quick note: I coined the term "pyrodruid", not the player. It kinda gave many of you the wrong idea, I think; Partly because mayhaps I had the wrong idea at first post here, too. We haven't been able to get ahold of him today, so, no new update. But it's almost assuredly going to be talking him into a sorcerer or wizard, his choice. It shouldn't really be hard; I paged through the books I have, and all I ever see Allanon do is "druids fire" (scorching ray), and some "knock" spells and some "speak with dead" type thing. But all-in-all, it's been a great exercise in creativity and helpfulness on your parts. I'll keep you posted, but continue with any last-minute ideas! Neue
DrakaraGM 06-13-05, 02:00 AM	One additional possibility -- in UA I believe there was a variant for wizards who, instead of specializing in a school, were "domain wizards". I don't recall the exact details, but IIRC they got a single "arcane domain" of spells that were of a particular theme, that they could prepare one of at each level (1st-9th) in addition to their normal spells. Unlike specialist wizards they were not banned from learning spells of a particular school or whatever, but I think there was some sort of drawback (perhaps no familiar?) that compensated for the extra spells. Anyway, I think one of the domains was "fire"... Might be worth looking into as a possibility.
Elgonn 06-13-05, 02:04 AM	He's willing to give up Wild Shape entirely? roflmao Give him whatever fire crap he wants.
Gloriam Etriae 06-13-05, 02:13 AM	I actually faced this myself with a character in my previous D&D campaign. The character had accidentally killed a party member by causing a fire in a small forest (while they were fighting gnolls); the trauma of the event led her to the mantra of "Fire cleanses." As in: fire cleanses the forest, by removing the dead underbrush and refurbishing the soil (so, it may take 20-30 years, but that amount of time means little to a tree :) ), fire cleanses the spirit through study and meditation, and fire cleanses the world of evil. So, working with the player, we eventually got the druid qualified to take the elemental savant class. Thankfully, the player kept with the theme throughout the remainder of the campaign, and even took a special place in her order as a "Mistress of Fire," one of a few druids of each generation who master an element. Anyway, mechanically, she took 2 levels of bard for the knowledge skills, and filled out the rest of her levels between druid and elemental savant (I think the mix was Druid7/Bard2/Elemental Savant5). Elemental savant is in the new Complete Arcane, IIRC. Obviously, all you need is a way to get the appropriate Knowledge skills as class skills (she chose bard, which was in her character's personality), but there are other ways to go with that approach. Anyway, that's a way to do it without altering or creating classes.
Galahdeon 06-13-05, 02:49 AM	well being that i have not read the specific books, i would say mix the classes a little give him the druids spells table and mix the list of spells know maby give him access to the fire domane in exchange for some spells. maybe keep the whole druid class and change some of the spells out for the fire domain spells an/or the trickory domain. :D
Deskane 06-13-05, 11:00 AM	Hey man your in luck i know a guy who has created his own fire based class called the pyromancer!!!! its really cool i've played one and its really fun!!! i'll ask him for the class as soon as i can!!!! it was on the forums last year!!! Deskane