Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yanagita Kunio 07-03-07, 11:06 AM	Looking to the people on the board with lots of ToB experience-- In the course of fitting Crusaders into my current campaign, a thought occurred: would it be viable to alter the Crusader such that it could select maneuvers from Devoted Spirit, White Raven Tactics, plus one other martial discipline (rather than just Stone Dragon)? Thematically, I'm tempted: while Devoted Spirit and White Raven are sort of pivotal to the Crusader as ideological devotee and figurehead, I could see subbing others disciplines for Stone Dragon based upon the thematic inclinations of the deity served. For example, Setting Sun for a CG trickster deity, Tiger Claw for a CN feral nature/animal deity, or Diamond Mind for a LE god of cunning and strategy. I know it's a very open-ended question, but does anyone see any prominent mechanical problems with this? Any advice would be appreciated.
Tempest Stormwind 07-03-07, 11:14 AM	I doubt there would be too much of a problem unless the crusader had easy and automatic access to some of the more exotic schools, notably Setting Sun and Shadow Hand (the latter has incredible maneuvers that are balanced by not recovering them quickly, and the former has some positively MEAN battlefield control abilities provided you have a trip weapon). You can obtain these with PrCs, but they're often difficult to qualify for. Besides, I'd still choose Stone Dragon. Steely Resolve + Stone Power = I Just Don't Die, which is really the crusader's schtick. For this reason, I'd recommend Stone Dragon remain on the list for the "default" crusader. (Also, I don't see crusaders as necessarily religious. I just see them as zealous. There IS a difference between the two. So don't feel that you have to fix them based on a deity choice.)
Neutronium_Dragon 07-03-07, 11:53 AM	According to the book's own authors, the disciplines for each class were chosen solely on the basis of theme, not because of any mechanical considerations, and you can switch them around or even allow more/all per class without creating balance issues. So if a crusader serves a cause which one of the other disciplines better represents then it's perfectly fine to switch Stone Dragon to that other discipline to reflect it.
Dnarris 07-03-07, 11:53 AM	I agree with Tempest. I'd keep stone dragon. I really think the main purpose of stone dragon is to mitigate damage. Think about it. You get abilities that provide DR/adamantite. You could have 15 damage sitting in your delayed damage pool, but as soon as you use iron bones and hit the enemy you now have enough DR to ignore that damage at the end of your turn. I'm not certain if damage that goes to the delayed damage pool remains typed, but even so any damage that goes to that pool that isn't done by adamantite is going to be mitigated. I think that's reason enough to keep stone. It synergizes extremely well with steely resolve.
Tempest Stormwind 07-03-07, 12:36 PM	Um, DR doesn't apply against Steely Resolve. It can reduce the damage you take before it goes into Steely Resolve, but not afterwards. Stone Power still works, though.
AAB 07-03-07, 12:54 PM	i'll admit it, stone dragon would be the discipline i'd ignore/drop if i were making a ranged crusader with the falling star discipline. just because i wouldn't plan on being hit enough to need DR or the extra HP.
Minmaximus 07-03-07, 02:02 PM	I am playing a warblade, and I say why not. I would look real careful at exactly what you are handing a crusader though. Setting sun and shadow hand are very sneaky and you should look at the interaction (combos) before you hand it over. The swordsage gets some killer powers and is a little weaker to compensate.
Dnarris 07-03-07, 05:08 PM	Um, DR doesn't apply against Steely Resolve. It can reduce the damage you take before it goes into Steely Resolve, but not afterwards. Stone Power still works, though. Okay, you, um, me...but you are asking me to take your word on that since you didn't explain why it didn't. I've read the power over several time and there's absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that your DR would not effect the damage coming out of your delayed damage pool. The ability states that the damage is forstalled and not dealt until the end of the next turn. If damage is actually dealt at the end of your next turn why wouldn't DR work? If there's some errata or some special rule saying you can't do this...point me to it please, otherwise it's just you telling me no. I doubled checked the damage reduction rules in the DMG as well and I don't see any reason why it won't work with steely resolve since steely resolve isn't a form of damage reduction. It simply delays the damage you were suppose to take until the end of your next turn. The way I see it the damage occurs after that pool resets like the rules for the ability states and then damage reduction can work normally. If you were to affect the damage with damage reduction before it went into the delayed damage pool, I would say that you couldn't reduce the same source of damage twice, but it isn't. ((But to add to this....since steely resolve is a new and unique ability, I've never read any rule that said that the damage couldn't be reduced going into the pool and coming out of the pool. Though that seems like bending rules. As crusader I wouldn't want the DR to work until after the pool reset anyhow to take advantage of furious counterstrike)) In my example the character didn't have DR until after that damage was already in the delayed damage pool, but before it reset on his next turn. AAB: Why wouldn't you plan on being hit enough to need DR? With feats like karmatic strike, and Robilar's Gambit work out well to help take max advantage of a Crusader's furious Counterstrike. If you know you negate the majorty of the damage before the end of your next turn, I don't see any reason not to try and utilize those abilities.
AAB 07-03-07, 05:18 PM	Okay, you, um, me...but you are asking me to take your word on that since you didn't explain why it didn't. I've read the power over several time and there's absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that your DR would not effect the damage coming out of your delayed damage pool. The ability states that the damage is forstalled and not dealt until the end of the next turn. If damage is actually dealt at the end of your next turn why wouldn't DR work? If there's some errata or some special rule saying you can't do this...point me to it please, otherwise it's just you telling me no. I doubled checked the damage reduction rules in the DMG as well and I don't see any reason why it won't work with steely resolve since steely resolve isn't a form of damage reduction. It simply delays the damage you were suppose to take until the end of your next turn. The way I see it the damage occurs after that pool resets like the rules for the ability states and then damage reduction can work normally. If you were to affect the damage with damage reduction before it went into the delayed damage pool, I would say that you couldn't reduce the same source of damage twice, but it isn't. In my example the character didn't have DR until after that damage was already in the delayed damage pool, but before it reset on his next turn. AAB: Why wouldn't you plan on being hit enough to need DR? With feats like karmatic strike, and Robilar's Gambit work out well to help take max advantage of a Crusader's furious Counterstrike. If you know you negate the majorty of the damage before the end of your next turn, I don't see any reason not to try and utilize those abilities. okay, first off: i think i read somewhere that DR comes before the damage goes into your DDP. i don't remember where, though. someone else probably does. and i was saying i wouldn't plan on being hit if i were a crusader with the falling star discipline. i'd be using a bow. i'd try to stay away from people.
Dnarris 07-03-07, 05:21 PM	okay, first off: i think i read somewhere that DR comes before the damage goes into your DDP. i don't remember where, though. someone else probably does. The only infromation I can find on steely resolve is on page 10 and 11 of the Tome of Battle. Is there another book that's associated with the Tome of Battle or some errata somewhere? And for the sake of this example the DR wasn't there when the damage was intially delayed. It was added by the iron bones ability before the end of the next turn when the damage was suppose to be dealt.
AAB 07-03-07, 05:37 PM	alright. found it in sage advice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070402a
Yanagita Kunio 07-03-07, 05:51 PM	I doubt there would be too much of a problem unless the crusader had easy and automatic access to some of the more exotic schools, notably Setting Sun and Shadow Hand...(snip)... (Also, I don't see crusaders as necessarily religious. I just see them as zealous. There IS a difference between the two. So don't feel that you have to fix them based on a deity choice.) I've looked over both the Sublime Way Marshal and Ranger that have been posted--and Falling Star--and liked the idea of an initial choice of martial discipline representing a stylistic path. (I like your work, by the way.) I have both ideologies and religions active IMC, and proponents of both (as well as individuals) that I'd cast as "Crusaders" mechanically. Substituting disciplines occurred to me as an idea because I was coming up with details for formal organizations of a "zealous" variety--the kind that would have a training routine in place, and thus a distinct set of techniques, et cetera. At first I was thinking of just implementing the idea via organization-tied PrCs, but then I thought that it would be more streamlined to just implement a choice at 1st level. --- Thanks to all for the recommendations. Given the rather guarded attitude, I think I stick with what is, use Martial Study/Stance feats to spice things up. After getting a little more used to the mechanics of ToB, I might re-visit the idea through PrCs or some such. Thanks again.
Dnarris 07-03-07, 08:59 PM	alright. found it in sage advice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070402a Thanks for pointing that out. Now I know to use my damage reduction before if I really want to use it. :D
Vaelan 07-03-07, 09:58 PM	alright. found it in sage advice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070402a That doesn't address the question at all. I found no mention of this in the ToB CustServ thread, either. I would say that DR doesn't apply because it already applied to the hit when the hit was received.
AAB 07-03-07, 10:04 PM	how does that not answer the question? I would say that DR doesn't apply because it already applied to the hit when the hit was received. that's exactly what that sage advice article said.
Dnarris 07-03-07, 10:14 PM	how does that not answer the question? What he said...:confused:
Vaelan 07-04-07, 01:44 AM	I think I forgot what I had read. Why can't you people talk? I remember everything I hear. :( I was under the impression that you were still talking about the actual rules rather than what dnarris decided he thinks they should be. My mistake. Anyway, if anyone were inclined to go into the rules behind the matter rather than common sense, here is how it would go... Steely Resolve says that you take damage. Damage Reduction applies to damage unless it originates from... ...energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Or an attack that pierces their DR, obviously. The damage could come from two possible sources: the attack, which we can assume DR applies to, or the ability, which is Extraordinary. One could make a rules-based, common sense-ignoring argument that it applies twice, for what it's worth.
Dnarris 07-04-07, 08:20 AM	I was under the impression that you were still talking about the actual rules rather than what dnarris decided he thinks they should be. My mistake. :confused: It wasn't about what I "thought" it should be. It was about what was presented. Until the sage advice proof was shown there was nothing to discount that DR gained after delayed damage had been dealt in the next round would apply when the delayed damage pool reset. What you say I "thought" was based on the actual rules from pages 10-11 in the TOB and the DMG page 291-292. And there is nothing mentioned about supernatural abilites being ingorned by damage reduction. The entry that you are quoting in the DMG is on page 292 in the first sentence before the second paragraph. "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical ones) ignore damage reduction." It is also in the SRD listed under basic rules and then abilities and conditions. The SRD says, "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction" So again I see no mention of supernatural or extraordinary abilities ignoring damage reduction. Steely resolve is an extraordinary ability and doesn't fall under any of the categories mentioned in that line you quoted, but changed from the DMG. Also on page 289 under the special abilities heading the DMG clearly states the difference between an extraordinary ability and a supernatural ability. So your presentation is more about what you "thought" rather than what I "thought". It's okay to be wrong. No need to make excuses, all you have to do is admit it and move on. I wasn't making things up....I wasn't presenting the rules as I "thought" they should be...there was simply no rules covering the use of steely resolve and damage reduction. So I presented the use of the abilities based upon the rules that were in effect. I admitted I was wrong when AAB was able to explain why I was wrong rather than just Tempest just saying "No" and me going "Oh, okay". I was wrong and I thanked AAB for helping me set my rules right for future use. Not that I'll be able to explain why it doesn't work....I'll just have to say "Well, Sage advice said so" which...is going to be really lame.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-04-07, 09:37 AM	Going back to the original issue of whether other disciplines might be too much: I don't think so. Every one of the disciplines has its strong points, and a crusader who has nothing but Shadow Hand and Setting Sun may be able to do things that the Devoted Spirit/White Raven guy can't hope to imitate, but the reverse is also true and has combinations which are every bit as dangerous. The swordsage has weaker abilities in some other areas, but that's not due to the number of disciplines which are associated with his class (the authors have said as much) but rather because of the sheer number of stances and maneuvers he can learn and keep readied. A crusader with access to different/more disciplines still faces the limitation of not having all that many maneuvers/stances known and readied compared to the swordsage, so he's not going to end up being more powerful, just differently powered.
TheWerg 07-16-07, 07:05 PM	alright. found it in sage advice. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070402a Actually, that doesn't address the question. The question wasn't when damage reduction applies to incoming damage, but whether the DR would apply to damage that you take at the end of your turn, since technically you're taking the damage in two separate instances. All that that tells you is that you apply damage reduction to the damage you take, then put it in your damage pool. It doesn't tell you whether damage reduction applies to the damage you take later in the turn, when you take the damage from the delayed damage pool.
Twylyght 07-16-07, 08:29 PM	1. I see no issues in adapting what manuvers a cruader can start with. Go for it :) 2. Is it me or is someone actually trying to argue that by merit of having 1 level in a base class you should get any DR you have effectivly doubled? Its not going to be reduced twice, because its only taken once. The damage to be dealt is determined when it goes in to the pool, then taken at the end of the turn. Steely resolve does not prevent damage, then deal its own later, It delays the damage already rolled. Again Steely Resolve, is not a damage source, its an effect the alters the way other damage sources are handled.