Post/Author/DateTime	Post
snuffy 08-22-05, 03:04 PM	For a new campaign I'm starting, one of my players designed a variant barbarian he wanted to try. I am not a good judge of how balanced things are, so I thought I'd ask what some other people thought about it. Savage Barbarian. All class features are the same as the core 3.5 barbarian except as follows: Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The savage barbarian loses proficiency in all armour, shields, and martial weapons. Furthermore, if he/she uses any armour, shield, or a non-simple weapon, all class abilities (except weapon proficiencies, skills, feats, Bab, and saves) are lost, and the savage barbarian suffers a -1 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks until he/she cleanses themselves. This requires 24 hours of uninterrupted solitude in a wilderness area. Skill points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 2 + Int modifier Unarmed fighting: At first level, the savage barbarian gains improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. At levels 2 and beyond, a savage barbarians unarmed damage is equal to the unarmed damage of a monk 1/2 the number of levels of savage barbarian the charactor has Saavage rage: As barbarian's rage, except at 1st level the savage barbarian gains damage reduction 1/- while raging. This increases to 2/- at 11th level, and 3/- at 20th level. This stacks with the barbarians normal damage reduction, so a level 7 savage barbarian, who would normally have damage reduction 1/-, gains damage reduction 2/- while raging.
Centauri 08-22-05, 03:19 PM	Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The savage barbarian loses proficiency in all armour, shields, and martial weapons. Furthermore, if he/she uses any armour, shield, or a non-simple weapon, all class abilities (except weapon proficiencies, skills, feats, Bab, and saves) are lost, and the savage barbarian suffers a -1 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks until he/she cleanses themselves. This requires 24 hours of uninterrupted solitude in a wilderness area. Representing the fact that he is unfamiliar and rather frightened of "advanced" weapons? Remember crossbows are simple weapons (more, I think because of their supposed ease of use, than anything else), and that might not fit your concept. Skill points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 2 + Int modifier Might as well leave it at 4 per level. Unarmed fighting: At first level, the savage barbarian gains improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. At levels 2 and beyond, a savage barbarians unarmed damage is equal to the unarmed damage of a monk 1/2 the number of levels of savage barbarian the charactor has Okay. Savage rage: As barbarian's rage, except at 1st level the savage barbarian gains damage reduction 1/- while raging. This increases to 2/- at 11th level, and 3/- at 20th level. This stacks with the barbarians normal damage reduction, so a level 7 savage barbarian, who would normally have damage reduction 1/-, gains damage reduction 2/- while raging. This is the part I'd be most careful with. D&D seems to treat damage reduction (especially the universal kind) as a rare and special thing. What are you trying to represent here? Maybe it would make more sense to represent it with more HP, better AC, or spell resistance.
snuffy 08-22-05, 03:47 PM	About the weapons: It's only for one player, and he gets the idea, so i'm not going to worry about that. The 2 skill points is a balancing feature, and shows the savage barbarian is even less sopphistocated than the normal one. The damage reduction is supposed to represent his toughness. The campign probably won't get beyond 10th or 11th, so I don't think the damage reduction will have that big an impact thanks for the input
snuffy 08-22-05, 04:01 PM	I just talked to my friend ( the one who's idea this is) and he said he liked the idea of bonus ac, which the class lacks, and spell resistance. He suggested dropping trap scense, and gaining a bonus in rage to ac and saves. As in 1st level +1, 4th +2, th +3, 10th +4, 13th +5, 16th +6, and 19th +7. Is that too much? also, what kind of bonus should the ac bonus be?
Dracomorph 08-22-05, 04:25 PM	it is too high. how about:no rage ac penalty, and a permanent dodge bonus to AC, starting at +1 at first level, and increasing by one at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th. also, give it some ki-strike type abilities, maybe only work during a rage? this really looks neat, so i'm gonna keep an eye on it, and i'll help if you need it.
Keenath 08-22-05, 04:26 PM	The AC bonus should probably be dodge. You might consider giving him free proficiency with nets and bolas, too. Also, shouldn't he be allowed to use Hide armor? Strapping skins to you can't be that difficult.
Calibron 08-22-05, 05:11 PM	About the weapons: It's only for one player, and he gets the idea, so i'm not going to worry about that. The 2 skill points is a balancing feature, and shows the savage barbarian is even less sopphistocated than the normal one. Low skill points seem to come from having a class be very specialized(such as a Fighter or Wizard) not a lack of intelligence or sophistication.
snuffy 08-22-05, 07:49 PM	Thanks for all of the ideas. I talked with my friend again , and this is what we ended up with: Savage Barbarian. All class features are the same as the core 3.5 barbarian except as follows: Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The Savage Barbarian is proficient with the dagger, light mace, club, heavy mace, morningstar, short spear, longspear, spear, dart, javelin, sling, and greatclub. Furthermore, if he/she uses any armour or shield, all class abilities (except weapon proficiencies, skills, feats, Bab, and saves) are lost, and the savage barbarian suffers a -1 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks until he/she cleanses themselves. This requires 24 hours of uninterrupted solitude in a wilderness area. Skill points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 2 + Int modifier Unarmed fighting: At first level, the savage barbarian gains improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. At levels 2 and beyond, a savage barbarians unarmed damage is equal to the unarmed damage of a monk 1/2 the number of levels of savage barbarian the charactor has. Primial Awareness: This replaces the trap sense of the normal barbarian. The savage barbarian gains a permanent dodge bonus to his armour class. This bonus is +1 at 1st level, +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level. Savage rage: As barbarian rage, except as follows: The AC penalty is -2 at level 1, declines to -1 at level 5, and dissapears at level 10. Also, the savage barbarian may choose to deal slashing damage with his unarmed strike while in rage. Animal cunning: At level 2, the savage barbarian gains a +1 bonus on saves against mindaffecting effects. This improves to +2 while the savage barbarian is in rage. At level 8, the bonuses increase to +2 and +3, and at level 14 increase to +3 and +4. This feature replaces indomitable will. Savage Strike: A level 4 or higher savager barbarian gains this ability while in rage. His/her unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons for overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level, they are also treated as chaotic weapons, and are treated as adamantine weapons at level 16. Pure animal: at 20th level, the savage barbarian can slip into a persona capable of pure savagery. While in rage, he can change his type between animal and his original type, whichever is more useful at the moment. Also, he may now deal slashing damage with his unarmed attacks outside of rage, and if he uses his unarmed attacks to deal slashing damage in rage they are treated as keen weapons. The savage barbarian has the class skills, Base attack bonus, saves, fast movement, illiteracy, rage per day, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, greator rage, tireless rage, and mighty rage of the normal barbarian
Centauri 08-22-05, 07:56 PM	Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The Savage Barbarian is proficient with the dagger, light mace, club, heavy mace, morningstar, short spear, longspear, spear, dart, javelin, sling, and greatclub. How about sling? And you'd better add Unarmed Strike, just to make sure.
snuffy 08-22-05, 08:27 PM	Umm, sling is on the list. About unarmed strike - In the players handbook, its not under the monk's proficiencies, so I didn't think I would need it. The savage barbarian also gains improved unarmed strike at level one, so that would take care of it too
snuffy 08-23-05, 09:49 AM	:bump:
Thelon Fairblade 08-23-05, 10:46 AM	I would think a "savage" barbarian would still have 4 skill points, with Listen, Spot, and Survival being prime skill choices. I liked the Primal Awareness, although it is weaker than the monk (no WIS bonus to AC). You might still want to allow Hide armor, but you don't have to. His unarmed damage is always going to be really weak. He doesn't even advance to d8 damage until 8th level, with d10 at 16th being maximum advancement. Expect to see him favoring the mace/morningstar or the greatclub for his whole career. Savage Rage is fine. Animal Cunning -> I would make the "in rage" bonus 2pts better, instead of 1. Pure Animal is interesting. Immune to Hold Person *and* Hold Animal (but not Hold Monster), Charm Person, etc. Keen, magic, chaotic, adamantine 1d10 unarmed strike. Flavorful, if a little weak. Loss of trapsense. Eh, no biggie. So he's going to be AC 11 to 15 at 1st level (DEX bonus +1), wielding a morningstar or a greatclub. By 5th level he hopefully will have acquired some magical protections, and his AC increases by 1. He can use his hands to damage "DR X/magic" cretures, but only for 1d6. Seems weak.
snuffy 08-23-05, 11:50 AM	thanks. do you think he should get full monk unarmed damage? And for the Ac, maybe a natural armour bonus?
beezly 08-23-05, 12:05 PM	thanks. do you think he should get full monk unarmed damage? And for the Ac, maybe a natural armour bonus? Yes...yes...and let him use Hide/Leather armor!
Nephlite 08-23-05, 12:09 PM	Thanks for all of the ideas. I talked with my friend again , and this is what we ended up with: Savage Barbarian. All class features are the same as the core 3.5 barbarian except as follows: Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The Savage Barbarian is proficient with the dagger, light mace, club, heavy mace, morningstar, short spear, longspear, spear, dart, javelin, sling, and greatclub. Furthermore, if he/she uses any armour or shield, all class abilities (except weapon proficiencies, skills, feats, Bab, and saves) are lost, and the savage barbarian suffers a -1 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks until he/she cleanses themselves. This requires 24 hours of uninterrupted solitude in a wilderness area. So he isn't proficient with unarmed strike. Ask Cut Serv, Monks have prioficiency (just not shown). A Wizard with improved unarm strike still suffers non-proficiency with unarmed. The Feat doesn't do jack for the proficiency. Skill points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 2 + Int modifier Much too low, why? Unarmed fighting: At first level, the savage barbarian gains improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. At levels 2 and beyond, a savage barbarians unarmed damage is equal to the unarmed damage of a monk 1/2 the number of levels of savage barbarian the charactor has. How about gains proficiency and improved unarmed strike, k'! Still low Unarmed either way. Savage rage: As barbarian rage, except as follows: The AC penalty is -2 at level 1, declines to -1 at level 5, and dissapears at level 10. Also, the savage barbarian may choose to deal slashing damage with his unarmed strike while in rage. Slashing is good. Disappears is also good. Pure animal: at 20th level, the savage barbarian can slip into a persona capable of pure savagery. While in rage, he can change his type between animal and his original type, whichever is more useful at the moment. Also, he may now deal slashing damage with his unarmed attacks outside of rage, and if he uses his unarmed attacks to deal slashing damage in rage they are treated as keen weapons. So do you have to state each round that I am now animal type or what? Keen unarmed is great though.
Thelon Fairblade 08-23-05, 12:45 PM	Wait... isn't "keen unarmed" just "Improved Critical: Unarmed"? And, everyone is trained in Unarmed strike. No proficiency necessary. *Not* everyone is trained in lethal unarmed strikes, and attacking unarmed without drawing AoO... hence the IUS feat. Natural armor idea... I like! Leave out the Hide armor (although I originally liked it) - eventually the PC is going to wind up in ancient gold wyrmhide +5 of Heavy Fortification and Uberness (etc.). Instead, what about this: the Savage barbarian gains a natural armor bonus equal to his CON bonus, *max* bonus equal to level. This is like the Swashbuckler's (and Duelist's) INT to AC, with the same limitation to prevent mega AC at 1st level. If you want, delay till third, or maybe do "max = 1/2 level".
Nephlite 08-23-05, 12:59 PM	Wait... isn't "keen unarmed" just "Improved Critical: Unarmed"? And, everyone is trained in Unarmed strike. No proficiency necessary. *Not* everyone is trained in lethal unarmed strikes, and attacking unarmed without drawing AoO... hence the IUS feat. Um, Improved Critical is a feat. Keen only works on slashing weapons so you don't waste a feat and it affects unarmed so whee!. Second, No one is trained in unarmed strikes unless it says so in their class. Fighters, Barbs, Bards, Sorc, Rogues, Clerics, Experts, Aristocratas, Warriors, and commoners (if they choose it since they get 1 simple werapon proficiency). Wizards don't got it. Monks don't got it listed but Cut Serv says they do it just isn't shown. Druids don't. And Especially this guy doesn't have it shown. Rule 0'ing is cool but it doesn't affect all games only yours.
snuffy 08-23-05, 01:51 PM	thanks This is just for my game, so its a given that he'll be proficient in unarmed attacks, but i'll add it, just to be sure. I had the unarmed strikes as keen, because everyone I play with thinks keen and improved crit should stack (I'm not sure if that is the official rule or not). Now that I actually look at the monk's unarmed damage I see that the 1/2 progression is too weak, so i'm going to change that. The bonus to AC is good, but I remember reading about that on the charactor optimization boards, where they thought it was great (read: overpowered) However, as this class would not use armour, I think it would be more balanced. I'll upgrade it again after I talk the the other person who (offline) helped me make it.
snuffy 08-23-05, 09:48 PM	Savage Barbarian. All class features are the same as the core 3.5 barbarian except as follows: Alignment: Any chaotic Weapon and Armour Proficiency - The Savage Barbarian is proficient with the dagger, light mace, club, heavy mace, morningstar, short spear, longspear, spear, dart, javelin, sling, and greatclub. Furthermore, if he/she uses any armour or shield, all class abilities (except weapon proficiencies, skills, feats, Bab, and saves) are lost, and the savage barbarian suffers a -1 morale penalty on attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks until he/she cleanses themselves. This requires 24 hours of uninterrupted solitude in a wilderness area. Skill points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier Unarmed fighting: At first level, the savage barbarian gains improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. Furthermore, his unarmed damage is increased, just like the monk's. The savage barbarian is proficient with all his unarmed attacks, Primial Awareness: This replaces the trap sense of the normal barbarian. The savage barbarian gains a permanent dodge bonus to his armour class. This bonus is +1 at 1st level, +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level. Barbaric Defense: The savage barbarian gains a Natural Armour bonus to his armour class. The bonus is equal to his constitution modifier, and has a maximum bonus equal to the savage barbarian's class level. Savage rage: As barbarian rage, except as follows: The AC penalty is -2 at level 1, declines to -1 at level 5, and dissapears at level 10. Also, the savage barbarian may choose to deal slashing damage with his unarmed strike while in rage. Animal cunning: At level 2, the savage barbarian gains a +1 bonus on saves against mindaffecting effects. This improves to +3 while the savage barbarian is in rage. At level 8, the bonuses increase to +2 and +4, and at level 14 increase to +3 and +5. This feature replaces indomitable will. Savage Strike: A level 4 or higher savager barbarian gains this ability while in rage. His/her unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons for overcoming damage reduction. At 10th level, they are also treated as chaotic weapons, and are treated as adamantine weapons at level 16. At level 8, his unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons at all times, at level 14 they are treated as chaotic weapons at all time, and at level 20 they are treated as adamantine at all times. Pure animal: at 20th level, the savage barbarian can slip into a persona capable of pure savagery. While in rage, he can change his type between animal and his original type, whichever is more useful at the moment. For example, if a 20th level savage barbarian was in rage, and had charm person cast on him, he could choose to be considered an animal, and the spell would not effect him; and, if later in the round, someone cast hold animal on him, he could choose to be considered his former type, and would not be effected. In effect, his type slips between animal and his former type at will, an unlimited number of times per round, too what would be most benificial fat a particular moment. Also, he may now deal slashing damage with his unarmed attacks outside of rage, and if he uses his unarmed attacks to deal slashing damage in rage their threat range expands to 19-20. The savage barbarian has the class skills, Base attack bonus, saves, fast movement, illiteracy, rage per day, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, greator rage, tireless rage, and mighty rage of the normal barbarian
BeyondFated 08-23-05, 10:09 PM	I like it! I would definatly be one, if my DM allows it.
snuffy 08-24-05, 06:45 AM	Thanks. Any advice on how balanced or unbalanced it is?
Qu1etus 08-24-05, 07:03 AM	Seems pretty cool, personally I think it is getting pretty balanced. Seems like your blending it into a caveman style monk/barbarian hybrid. I would give him a larger speed bonus too, not necessarily monk speed, but higher. After all he cant wear any armor, or use most weapons.
snuffy 08-24-05, 07:18 AM	I like the idea about increased movement. Now he gets +10 feet at level one. The monk ends up with +60 feet total (I think) So maybe he maybe should get a total of +30. I'm not sure when, though. 1, 10 20, or start it later, like 4, 10 16? Any advice?
snuffy 08-24-05, 08:24 PM	:bump:
Thelon Fairblade 08-25-05, 12:54 PM	Pure Animal / Unarmed crit range: This change is actually worse. Now, the way you have written it, he can take Improved Critical and get 17-20; and if your campaign allows stacking with Keen (defintely against the RAW), he can get down to 15-20. If you want to allow Keen and ImpCrit, then leave the description as "keen" unarmed attack. for RAW, I would say to specify he gets ImpCrit. Now, this isn't until 20th level... chances are good he already has ImpCrit, so this wouldn't give him anything. Back to your rewrite of "19-20 crit range" which ImpCrit would double. Hmm... Increased movement: the +10' is a base barbarian ability. Makes sense for him to have it. I don't think I would grant another speed increase, though, unless you wanted to tie it into the Rage somehow. Like maybe during a Greater Rage, he gains another +10' land speed.
snuffy 08-25-05, 02:25 PM	About the crit/ threat range: I'm not sure how you would get your unarmed strikes keen, short of epic levels, which we don't use. I just changed it to that because I know some people don't think improved critical and keen should stack. Yeah, your speed increase is probably a good idea. I'll have to reupdate it soon