Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ivalios 08-12-04, 10:22 PM	I am looking for advice on how to best protect my sorcerer. Advice can be in the form of spell chage, equiptment purchase, feat change, etc. My setup is geared to be extremely versatile in the attack department but he seams lacking in defense. My character is willing to use wish spells if nessecary. Sor 14/ archmage 4 CG Human Forgotten realms Feats: Chain spell (tome and blood) Heighten Spell Land Lord (strong hold builders guide book) Leadership Maximize Spell Skill Focus: Spell Craft Spell Focus (Evocation ? Transmutation ?) High Arcana Arcane Fire Arcane Reach Master of Elements Master of Shaping I want him to have a Demi Plane by way of the genius spell On the plane he will live with his girl friend (16th Cleric Mystra) and his best friend (16th wizard) cantrips: Arcane Mark Dancing lights Detect Magic Detect Poison Flare Light Mage hand Mending Prestidigitation 1st Charm Person Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (MOF) Know Protections (MOF) Magic Missle Ray Enfeblement (chain able) 2nd Entice gift (Bovd) (chaing able ?) False Life Glitter Dust Detect thoughts 3rd Fireball Fly Slow Tounges 4th Bestow Curse Dimensional Anchor Dimensional Door Enervation (chain able) 5th Ghost Form (Tome and blood) telekinesis Wall Force Wall Stone 6th Chain Lightning Disintegrate Greater Dispelling 7th Limited Wish Plane Shift Teleport With Out Error 8th Polymorph any object Mind Blank 9th Summon Monster IX
Mitchell 08-13-04, 02:54 AM	First, this should probably be on "What's a player to do" Now, you don't have much for defense as far as spells go (blur, mirror image, shield). You do have some walls, so you can always cast those, and you have D-Door and T-Port w/o error. If it gets hairy, leave. Now that may not sound heroic, but who else is in the group? The arcane casters best defense is the melee character. As long as there is something between you and the beasties, you can cast safely. Got fighters (or barbarians or paladins or rangers or monks)? If yes, then you should be fine if you play smart. If not, then consider the leadership feat and find some fighting cohorts. If there aren't any fighters in the group, then they shouldn't have any problem getting some decent gear. Other than that, look for some feats that boost your HP, initiative, or escapability (arcane preparation, maybe silenced and/or stilled spells with something like t-port so you can cast even if bound and gagged).
Ivalios 08-13-04, 09:23 AM	Thanks Mitchell for your response. My party will have at least one fighter type. I know there is going to be a monk and at least one other fighter type. Gaining Cohorts is not a problem because of a leadership score of 25. Thought I have one question about this. The DMG says that if a cohort dies and it was your fault you get a penalty to leadership. What if the cohort dies in battle fighting along side you? You both know the danger of going in to battle so would this be considered the pc's fault? I think I will move my question to another board like you suggested. Also Wiz-O's, My computer is on the fritz so I triple posted this by accident and was unable to delete them.
Krelios 08-13-04, 09:26 AM	Ditch Summon Monster IX, take Shapechange. Congratulations, you now have the single most powerful spell in the game.
monkeywrench 08-13-04, 09:59 AM	Buy armor boosting stuff that doesn't interfere with your arcane spell failure chance Robe of the Archmagi (DMG) Amulets of Natural Armor Rings of Protection Gloves of Dex Bracers of Armor Crimson Dragonhide Bracers (Draconomicon) And for the love of monkey, get the Shield spell. +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles. You'll always be using that in combat.
meabolex 08-13-04, 10:15 AM	No, I think this is a valid discussion of issues with the sorcerer class, since there's some no-nos that go on in this build. The first no-no that leaps out at me is the typical wizard-like thinking of knowing both dimension door and teleport without error. The question is, with massive numbers of both 7th level and 4th level spells, why do you need both? And, in the same vein, why take up two spell slots with spells that do relatively similar effects, such as wall of force and wall of stone? This brings up a standard point with high-level sorcerers -- one that people keep stumbling on -- selecting spells isn't the same as the wizard. If I were a wizard, I'd consider having a dimension door and teleport without error prepared. I wouldn't want to waste two of my 7th level slots when, in the vast majority of situations, a 5th level or 4th level spell would do an equivalent effect. But there's no point in doing that as a sorcerer. You'll typically have 6-7 7th level slots and 7-8 4th level slots. Are you really going to need to teleport across a plane 7 times in one day? You need to post more information about the sorcerer. How much Charisma does he have? What do you want to do in combat? Defend and buff your teammates? Control the battlefield? Blast everything? Run up and fight in melee combat?
amoeba 08-13-04, 11:53 AM	I really don't think you need both wall of force and wall of stone. I would change out wall of stone for dominate person or charm monster. I also don't like the bestow curse. you can switch that out for stoneskin for added protection. also, why do you have arcane reach when you have no touch spells? In this case, spell power might be better. as for items, I hope you get something with trueseeing all the time, like robe of eyes (has the blinding drawback though). At least get something that gives you continous see invisibility effect. otherwise you'll always have to guess the 10feet square they are in with glitterdust, not a good idea at high level play.
Ivalios 08-13-04, 12:23 PM	Originally posted by meabolex ... The first no-no that leaps out at me is the typical wizard-like thinking of knowing both dimension door and teleport without error. The question is, with massive numbers of both 7th level and 4th level spells, why do you need both? I like your thinking. I will remove Dimensional Door. I should probly replace it with a defensive spell. I am thinking Improved Invisibilty. Originally posted by meabolex And, in the same vein, why take up two spell slots with spells that do relatively similar effects, such as wall of force and wall of stone? I have a strong hold and will use the wall of stone to create the walls. Now that I think of it wall of stone can be cast by my charcter's girl friend (16th Cleric Mystra) or if I am desperate in battle I can cast limited wish and cast the cleric version. Any ideas on replacing the wall of stone Originally posted by meabolex ... You'll typically have 6-7 7th level slots and 7-8 4th level slots. Are you really going to need to teleport across a plane 7 times in one day? I may need to teleport frequently to get to and from my demi-plane. I may be able to use limited wish to replicate the cleric plane shift in a pinch or use my cohort when I am not. Originally posted by meabolex You need to post more information about the sorcerer. How much Charisma does he have? What do you want to do in combat? Defend and buff your teammates? Control the battlefield? Blast everything? Run up and fight in melee combat? ability scores in () are with magic item bonus Str 12 Dex 14 (20) con 16(18) Int 16 (22) wis 14 cha 20 (26) Magic items (subject to change) Amulet Natural Armor +5 Bracers Armor +8 Head band of intelect +6 (with possible built in head band of persuasion) Cloak Charisma +6 Vest (same as cloak) of Resistnce +5 Gloves of Dexterity +6 Ioun Stone (Pink Rhomboid) +2 enchancment con Portable Hole Ring of force shield Ring Protection +5 with build in feather fall ring Stone of good luck As for role, think Simbul. I want him to be a versitle blaster. He will not want or need to enter combat due to arcane reach. I want him also to be able to take care of him self and not rely on other characters for protection in battle. In his back story he lived a hard life living in dangerous areas and learned to not rely on others. Originally posted by Krelios Ditch Summon Monster IX, take Shapechange. Congratulations, you now have the single most powerful spell in the game. Sounds intresting. I will take it in to consideration. I chose summon monster because of the veritlity it gave me. If I had need for an odd spell I could always just summon a creature. Do you gain the creaures spell like abilites in shapechange? If so It would make the switch a no brainer.
Nethicus 08-13-04, 12:33 PM	Gaining Cohorts is not a problem because of a leadership score of 25. Thought I have one question about this. The DMG says that if a cohort dies and it was your fault you get a penalty to leadership. What if the cohort dies in battle fighting along side you? You both know the danger of going in to battle so would this be considered the pc's fault? Well, the party should have a cleric nearby to raise your cohort should he/she bite it. Not a big deal (and if it's 18th level, the cleric should have True Res, so no level loss required). Your cohort, assuming you took the Leadership feat at 18th, would be 16th level. If you caused the death of your cohort, even if you said, "Stand there while I try out this disintegrate spell on you", you would loose 2 points of leadership score. That's a 23 on the table, which means you'd still get a 16th level cohort. Bear in mind that having any sort of familiar will lower your leadership score as well. If you are using the old 3.0 splat books, having a Devoted Defender as a cohort is great for a sorcerer. I was aiming for that with a wizard of mine, but the cohort fell to his death off a platform. 16th level fighter with a 14 CON would give you, on average, 124 HP, a fighter with a dazzling array of feats, all of which you could apply to defense of your sorcerer. Additionally, I am a little confused with your spell selection. There is hardly any defense for your sorcerer. In addition, your sorcerer seems to want to be a chain-ray type user, but you don't have many ray spells. Why not pick up Polar Ray at 8th level? Or weapon focus: ray? 1st level: No shield? Or mage armor? I'm a huge fan of shield, and it may be better than skittish nerves. 3rd level: Tongues? Surely your wizard pal can just scribe the scroll. No reason to waste a sorcerer slot on it. Why not pick up lightning bolt? Or dispel magic? Great for counterspelling, and it's a good backup when you burn all of your Greater dispellings. 4th level: Greater invisiblity. Combined with fly it makes a wizard, especially a ray-wizard, a true terror. Use it in the place of dimension door or bestow curse. 7th: I'd change limited wish to Project Image. If you're invisible, you can use the image to cast spells. It's a great way to protect yourself. Plus it's an illusion and still qualifies you for Archmage. Feats: If you are going with this ray attack thing, split ray is also another feat from Tome & Blood that is useful. Just some ideas from me.
Ivalios 08-13-04, 01:32 PM	Here is my revised spell list based on suggestions so far cantrips: Arcane Mark Dancing lights Detect Magic Detect Poison Flare Light Mage hand Mending Prestidigitation 1st Charm Person Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (MOF) Know Protections (MOF) Magic Missle Ray Enfeblement (chain able) 2nd Entice gift (Bovd) (chaing able ?) False Life Glitter Dust (removed if I find get way to see invisibility) Detect thoughts 3rd Fireball Fly Slow Tounges (Removed) Replace with ? 4th Bestow Curse Dimensional Anchor Dimensional Door (removed) replaced with Improved Invisibility (mabe) Enervation (chain able) 5th Ghost Form (Tome and blood) telekinesis Wall Force Wall Stone (removed) replace with ? 6th Chain Lightning Disintegrate Greater Dispelling 7th Limited Wish Plane shift (Removed) replace with ? Teleport With Out Error 8th Polymorph any object Mind Blank 9th Summon Monster IX(replace possibly with shape change) I have no shield spell or mage armor because I have a ring of force shield. The 3.5 shield is nothing like the 3.0 shield. I used to have a wizard that cast persistant shield. When it rained he could use it as an umbrella :D Originally posted by Nethicus 3rd level: Tongues? Surely your wizard pal can just scribe the scroll. No reason to waste a sorcerer slot on it. Why not pick up lightning bolt? Or dispel magic? Great for counterspelling, and it's a good backup when you burn all of your Greater dispellings. I like the tongues suggestion. I will pass on lighting bolt because my master of elements ability can make lightning balls. Replacing tongues with dispel magic might be a possiblity. I am keeping bestow curse because combined with arcane reach they are a match mabe in heaven. It's a will save so it would be fun to drop on fighters. For defence I am mostly relying on Ghost form. this makes imune to non magic attacks. It also gives me a 50% chance of avoiding magic weapons and attacks. I am also open to anyone's ideas of some of the old magic affects from 2nd edition.
amoeba 08-13-04, 05:11 PM	you have enough 6th level slots for greater dispel. Please do not pick up dispel magic. at your level, only getting a +10 to your check is not going to do you any good against most enemies. Also, please consider my suggestion of taking spell power instead of arcane touch as you have no touch spells aside from bestow curse. consider taking out bestow curse. There are so many better 4th level spells. stone skin, black tentacles, confusion, polymorph......bestow curse is a touch attack in addition to a will negates.....very suboptimal. I also noticed that you have no items which allows you to see invisibility or gives you trueseeing. Its my opinion that at this level you should always have continous true seeing through some means. also, instead of the amulet of natural armor +5, I would go for the scarab of protection. the natural armor you can easily get with polymorph or polymorph any object. However, no spell on the sorc/wiz list gives you deathward equivalence short of limited wishing for one. At this level, you are far more likely to get enervated/energy drained/death attacked than you are going to get hit with melee. If you aren't wading in to melee, I don't even know why you would worry about ac as it doesn't really matter at this level. switch out ring of force shield for ring of counterspell or ring of spell storing. That +2 to AC won't make 1 bit of difference at this level. Put a disintigrate in to the ring of counterspell or if you go for ring of spell storing, major, have your cleric buddy or your wizard buddy put in spells that you normally can't cast. In short. Don't worry about AC too much. Things you are fighting at this level will hit you regardless of your AC, thus you must focus more on your mobility and miss chances (blur, displacement, etc....). You should worry about death spells and disintigrates.
Ivalios 08-14-04, 12:16 PM	Here is my second revision Change Summon monster IX with shape change. I am ditching the Amuler of natural Armor +5 That adds 50,000 gp to buy something else Amobea suggested a scrab of protection. The problem is with the spell resistance part. a creature of the same level would need to roll a two in order to over come my spell resistance. Do you know of any other items that confer protection against death attacks? I am removing ring of force shield. +2 to ac is not worth it. It would also cost 17,000 to add to build it in to another ring. I will pass. Bracers Armor +8 64,000 gp Head band of intelect +6 (with possible built in head band of persuasion) 36,000 + 9000 = 41,000 gp Cloak Charisma +6 36,000 gp Vest (same as cloak) of Resistnce +5 25,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +6 36,000 gp Ioun Stone (Pink Rhomboid) +2 enchancment con 8,000 gp Portable Hole 20,000 Ring Protection +5 with build in feather fall ring 50,000 + 4,400 = 54,400 Stone of good luck 20,000 lyre of building (free strong hold labor) 13,000 total 326,000gp of 420,000 I am leaving 20,000 aside for odds and ends I am thinking of picking up a staff of abjuration to make up for my lack of protection spells. Any thoughts on this? Does anyone know the names of items that confer true seeing or spell turning. This is my current spell list cantrips: Arcane Mark Dancing lights Detect Magic Detect Poison Flare Light Mage hand Mending Prestidigitation 1st Charm Person Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves (MOF) Know Protections (MOF) Magic Missle Ray Enfeblement (chain able) 2nd Entice gift (Bovd) (chaing able ?) False Life Touch of Idiocy Detect thoughts 3rd Fireball Fly Slow ? ( not dispel magic) 4th Bestow Curse Dimensional Anchor Improved Invisibility (mabe) Enervation (chain able) 5th Ghost Form (Tome and blood) telekinesis Wall Force ? 6th Chain Lightning Disintegrate Greater Dispelling 7th Limited Wish ? Teleport With Out Error 8th Polymorph any object Mind Blank 9th Shape Change Some people are telling my that prismatic spray is a good choice for level 7. It covers all three saving throw types etc. But over all it dosen't look that great in my oppion. I can do alot better with delayed blast fire ball and just change the element depending on who I am fighting. I have never used prismatic spray in combat. I would like some one's take on this who has? I like bestow curese because of the curses I found in the BOVD I will probly leave it unless some one has a good replacment for it. Also what book does devoted defender come out of?
Nethicus 08-14-04, 01:08 PM	Also what book does devoted defender come out of? Sword and Fist, 3.0 splat book.
Kaminton 08-14-04, 06:17 PM	Originally posted by Ivalios Some people are telling my that prismatic spray is a good choice for level 7. It covers all three saving throw types etc. But over all it dosen't look that great in my oppion. I can do alot better with delayed blast fire ball and just change the element depending on who I am fighting. I have never used prismatic spray in combat. I would like some one's take on this who has? I like bestow curese because of the curses I found in the BOVD I will probly leave it unless some one has a good replacment for it. If you're determined to keep Bestow Curse, find yourself some more touch spells. Like say, Otto's Irresistable Dance, but preferably one with another save type. Regarding prismatic spray: when you see a rogue, or anyone else with evasion, you'll not want to use the delayed blast fireball. Of the 7 possible rays, 3 of them deal damage, and 4 of them don't. I personally like the spell. Other options for you (especially defensively) are Mord's Magnificent Mansion, Force Cage (if money's no object), Project Image, Reverse Gravity (no save), Waves of Exhaustion.