Age-old Flurry-of-Blows question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Age-old Flurry-of-Blows question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WolfWings
12-06-06, 03:58 PM ...I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I read the 3.5 FAQ, but it didn't actually answer the specific case I was running into.

Take a non-humanoid Monster, we'll say a Krenshar since they're easy to work with. Add a level of Monk.

What's their full-attack options?

The 3.5 FAQ on the p13-p14 transition says:
...If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapons attacks, it may do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows...

For creatures that can't normally use manufactured weapon attacks, does this mean none of their natural weapons may be used as secondary attacks with a FoB? What about if they have, for example, the Hands of the Naga. Since now all of their natural weapon attacks could be used in combination with manufactured weapon attacks wielded with the HotN, does that mean all of their natural weapon attacks could be linked as secondary attacks after their FoB?

Or is this such an edge-case it's entire up to GM approval and has no official answer? I hunted around a bit, but the only answers I saw referred to the 3.5 FAQ, ergo why I'm referencing this question against the most relevant FAQ entry I could locate.
jaelis
12-06-06, 04:03 PM I think the point is that the flurry of blows part doesn't matter. The creature makes a full attack action involving a weapon. The set of iterative weapon attacks get replaced by the flurry. Whatever natural attacks it might also have go off as usual.

I guess the hard part is how this interacts with unarmed strikes, which is maybe what you're asking about. What natural weapons can you use if you're also making an unarmed strike attack? That is indeed a DM call. Certainly one hand/claw/slam is sufficient for the unarmed strike, but what about a creature with no arms? I think I'd decide on a case by case basis.
WolfWings
12-06-06, 04:16 PM Natural Weapon attacks are NOT Unarmed attacks, and are NOT Monk weapons, so they may not be applied as part of a Flurry of Blows. For example, the following are both from the 3.5 FAQ, pages 13 and 14:

Centaur w/ Monk 4: +7 BaB. FoB w/ Hooves: +5/+5/+0 (FoB) -2/-2 (Hooves)
Lizardfolk w/Monk 1: They can use their Bite as a secondary attack in combination with their FoB, but as with the Centaur at a total penalty of -7 (-2 to ALL attacks from the FoB until they get to Monk 5 or 9, -5 for a 'secondary' natural-weapon attack, Multiattack reduces that to -2)

The Lizardfolk example can't use their claws since those are taken up normally by wielding manufactured weapons, but they can use their Bite, and the Centaur can use their hooves because those are never used to wield manufactured weapons.

So what happens for creatures that, by default, never can wield manufactured weappns?
Iarmeister
12-06-06, 04:24 PM Natural Weapon attacks are NOT Unarmed attacks, and are NOT Monk weapons, so they may not be applied as part of a Flurry of Blows. For example, the following are both from the 3.5 FAQ, pages 13 and 14:

Centaur w/ Monk 4: +7 BaB. FoB w/ Hooves: +5/+5/+0 (FoB) -2/-2 (Hooves)
Lizardfolk w/Monk 1: They can use their Bite as a secondary attack in combination with their FoB, but as with the Centaur at a total penalty of -7 (-2 to ALL attacks from the FoB until they get to Monk 5 or 9, -5 for a 'secondary' natural-weapon attack, Multiattack reduces that to -2)

The Lizardfolk example can't use their claws since those are taken up normally by wielding manufactured weapons, but they can use their Bite, and the Centaur can use their hooves because those are never used to wield manufactured weapons.

So what happens for creatures that, by default, never can wield manufactured weappns?

No, most unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. However, pg 41 of the PHB states quite specifically, under Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Since it was also ruled that monks qualify for the Improved Natural Attack feat, I would guess that simply taking a level in monk means you gain all the superlatives associated with the monk's unarmed strike ability (which is significantly better than simply having the feat Improved Unarmed Strike).

Hence, a 1st level Krenshar monk's unarmed attacks will indeed work with FoB.
WolfWings
12-06-06, 05:13 PM No, most unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. However, pg 41 of the PHB states quite specifically, under Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Since it was also ruled that monks qualify for the Improved Natural Attack feat, I would guess that simply taking a level in monk means you gain all the superlatives associated with the monk's unarmed strike ability (which is significantly better than simply having the feat Improved Unarmed Strike).

Hence, a 1st level Krenshar monk's unarmed attacks will indeed work with FoB.

Quoting from the FAQ last updated November 22nd, 2006, p13:
You can't use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a Flurry of Blows. Only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons may be used in a flurry of blows.

Quoting from the FAQ, p12:
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, [...] She can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand [...]. The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

Example given: 6th level human monk Ember, BaB +4, standard FoB +3/+3.

If she had two-weapon fighting as well, when fighting with a light weapon in her off-hand, her attack progression now becomes +1/+1/+1, with two of those attacks required to be unarmed/monk-weapon attacks, the third able to be any weapon but must be an off-hand weapon. An unarmed attack can be used as the off-hand weapon, as always.

So does the Krenshar 2, Monk 1 character (as in the MM, add one level Monk) get:

+1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite)
or
+1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite) -1 (Claw) -1 (Claw)

And if they don't get the claw attacks by default, what happens when they add Arms of the Naga?
+1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite) -1 (Arms-wielded weapon)
or
+1 (Unarmed Arms) +1 (Unarmed Arms) -1 (Bite) -1 (Claw) -1 (Claw)

The latter because now all of their 'natural weapon' attacks could be used in combination with a wielded manufactured weapon, so are they all valid now?

Like I said, edge-case the November 22nd, 2006 2.5 FAQ doesn't yet cover to my knowledge.
Cael
12-06-06, 05:21 PM You get all the Flurry plus the natural attacks as secondary natural attacks.

For example, a level 1 Lizardfolk Monk have the following full attack (ignoring Lizardfolk HD):

-2/-2 Flurry + -7/-7 claws + -7 bite

This is supported by any number of monsters in the MM that has weapons and natural attacks (devils and demons in particular). A full attack action is a full attack action is a full attack action. There is nothing that states Flurry is different from that (other than the restriction of non-Monk weapons not being part of the Flurry). You may not use the natural attacks as part of the Flurry, but you can use the natural attacks after.
WolfWings
12-06-06, 06:18 PM You get all the Flurry plus the natural attacks as secondary natural attacks.

For example, a level 1 Lizardfolk Monk have the following full attack (ignoring Lizardfolk HD):

-2/-2 Flurry + -7/-7 claws + -7 bite

This is supported by any number of monsters in the MM that has weapons and natural attacks (devils and demons in particular). A full attack action is a full attack action is a full attack action. There is nothing that states Flurry is different from that (other than the restriction of non-Monk weapons not being part of the Flurry). You may not use the natural attacks as part of the Flurry, but you can use the natural attacks after.

Quoting from the November 22nd, 2006 3.5 Master FAQ, p14, top-left:

For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. [Or two claws and a bite.] [...]

If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a -2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a -4 penalty (-2 from flurry of blows and -2 from being a secondary [natural] weapon, reduced from -5 by Multiattack).

Or did they merely not have the Lizardfolk add the extra two claw attacks, and make the unarmed attacks with knees and/or elbows in the example? I may be reading more into the example than was intended, which is why I'm quoting all these FAQ bits to try to make sure I'm not missing something that would restrict the Krenshar Monk a PC is thinking about from having five attacks (albeit at moderately crummy BaB bonuses) at 5th level. I think the PC's being inventive for thinking of the idea, but even he's worried it's bending the rules rather far and wanted me to check with the group here so I'm trying to play devil's advocate and make sure nobody's missing anything. :-)
Cael
12-06-06, 06:45 PM Quoting from the November 22nd, 2006 3.5 Master FAQ, p14, top-left:

Or did they merely not have the Lizardfolk add the extra two claw attacks, and make the unarmed attacks with knees and/or elbows in the example? I may be reading more into the example than was intended, which is why I'm quoting all these FAQ bits to try to make sure I'm not missing something that would restrict the Krenshar Monk a PC is thinking about from having five attacks (albeit at moderately crummy BaB bonuses) at 5th level. I think the PC's being inventive for thinking of the idea, but even he's worried it's bending the rules rather far and wanted me to check with the group here so I'm trying to play devil's advocate and make sure nobody's missing anything. :-)
They assumed that the Lizardfolk is hitting with his fists, but the Monk can hit with anything, so it isn't valid.

It all depends on your martial arts style, I guess. Personally, when I spar, I tend to use my legs and feet more than my hands. I only bring my hands into the action when I am pressed by conditions (need for speedy take-downs, etc.). A Karate, Judo or Akido artist would probably do things the other way around. So it is up to your player to define his style of martial arts, I guess.
WolfWings
12-07-06, 06:05 PM And this is why I like to check here patiently and see what the consensus is instead of making snap judgements whenever possible. :D
beatchyvon
12-07-06, 07:20 PM My interpretation of the flurry of blows has always been that it basicly replaces the primary attack.
The lizard man gets two claw attacks and a bite secondary. So you could say that the two claws are both the primary attack because they have the same attack bonus or you could be nice and say only one counts as primary and the second is just a bonus?

So they either get
two unarmed attacks, a claw attack, and a bite attack
or
they get just the two unarmed attacks and a bite attack

which might be worth it depending on their claw damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WolfWings 12-06-06, 03:58 PM	...I'm sure this question has been asked before, and I read the 3.5 FAQ, but it didn't actually answer the specific case I was running into. Take a non-humanoid Monster, we'll say a Krenshar since they're easy to work with. Add a level of Monk. What's their full-attack options? The 3.5 FAQ on the p13-p14 transition says: ...If a creature can use one of its natural weapons as a secondary attack in conjunction with manufactured weapons attacks, it may do the same with that natural weapon in conjunction with a flurry of blows... For creatures that can't normally use manufactured weapon attacks, does this mean none of their natural weapons may be used as secondary attacks with a FoB? What about if they have, for example, the Hands of the Naga. Since now all of their natural weapon attacks could be used in combination with manufactured weapon attacks wielded with the HotN, does that mean all of their natural weapon attacks could be linked as secondary attacks after their FoB? Or is this such an edge-case it's entire up to GM approval and has no official answer? I hunted around a bit, but the only answers I saw referred to the 3.5 FAQ, ergo why I'm referencing this question against the most relevant FAQ entry I could locate.
jaelis 12-06-06, 04:03 PM	I think the point is that the flurry of blows part doesn't matter. The creature makes a full attack action involving a weapon. The set of iterative weapon attacks get replaced by the flurry. Whatever natural attacks it might also have go off as usual. I guess the hard part is how this interacts with unarmed strikes, which is maybe what you're asking about. What natural weapons can you use if you're also making an unarmed strike attack? That is indeed a DM call. Certainly one hand/claw/slam is sufficient for the unarmed strike, but what about a creature with no arms? I think I'd decide on a case by case basis.
WolfWings 12-06-06, 04:16 PM	Natural Weapon attacks are NOT Unarmed attacks, and are NOT Monk weapons, so they may not be applied as part of a Flurry of Blows. For example, the following are both from the 3.5 FAQ, pages 13 and 14: Centaur w/ Monk 4: +7 BaB. FoB w/ Hooves: +5/+5/+0 (FoB) -2/-2 (Hooves) Lizardfolk w/Monk 1: They can use their Bite as a secondary attack in combination with their FoB, but as with the Centaur at a total penalty of -7 (-2 to ALL attacks from the FoB until they get to Monk 5 or 9, -5 for a 'secondary' natural-weapon attack, Multiattack reduces that to -2) The Lizardfolk example can't use their claws since those are taken up normally by wielding manufactured weapons, but they can use their Bite, and the Centaur can use their hooves because those are never used to wield manufactured weapons. So what happens for creatures that, by default, never can wield manufactured weappns?
Iarmeister 12-06-06, 04:24 PM	Natural Weapon attacks are NOT Unarmed attacks, and are NOT Monk weapons, so they may not be applied as part of a Flurry of Blows. For example, the following are both from the 3.5 FAQ, pages 13 and 14: Centaur w/ Monk 4: +7 BaB. FoB w/ Hooves: +5/+5/+0 (FoB) -2/-2 (Hooves) Lizardfolk w/Monk 1: They can use their Bite as a secondary attack in combination with their FoB, but as with the Centaur at a total penalty of -7 (-2 to ALL attacks from the FoB until they get to Monk 5 or 9, -5 for a 'secondary' natural-weapon attack, Multiattack reduces that to -2) The Lizardfolk example can't use their claws since those are taken up normally by wielding manufactured weapons, but they can use their Bite, and the Centaur can use their hooves because those are never used to wield manufactured weapons. So what happens for creatures that, by default, never can wield manufactured weappns? No, most unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. However, pg 41 of the PHB states quite specifically, under Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Since it was also ruled that monks qualify for the Improved Natural Attack feat, I would guess that simply taking a level in monk means you gain all the superlatives associated with the monk's unarmed strike ability (which is significantly better than simply having the feat Improved Unarmed Strike). Hence, a 1st level Krenshar monk's unarmed attacks will indeed work with FoB.
WolfWings 12-06-06, 05:13 PM	No, most unarmed strikes are not natural weapons. However, pg 41 of the PHB states quite specifically, under Unarmed Strike: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both as manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Since it was also ruled that monks qualify for the Improved Natural Attack feat, I would guess that simply taking a level in monk means you gain all the superlatives associated with the monk's unarmed strike ability (which is significantly better than simply having the feat Improved Unarmed Strike). Hence, a 1st level Krenshar monk's unarmed attacks will indeed work with FoB. Quoting from the FAQ last updated November 22nd, 2006, p13: You can't use a natural weapon (claw, bite, or whatever) as part of a Flurry of Blows. Only unarmed strikes and special monk weapons may be used in a flurry of blows. Quoting from the FAQ, p12: A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, [...] She can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand [...]. The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. Example given: 6th level human monk Ember, BaB +4, standard FoB +3/+3. If she had two-weapon fighting as well, when fighting with a light weapon in her off-hand, her attack progression now becomes +1/+1/+1, with two of those attacks required to be unarmed/monk-weapon attacks, the third able to be any weapon but must be an off-hand weapon. An unarmed attack can be used as the off-hand weapon, as always. So does the Krenshar 2, Monk 1 character (as in the MM, add one level Monk) get: +1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite) or +1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite) -1 (Claw) -1 (Claw) And if they don't get the claw attacks by default, what happens when they add Arms of the Naga? +1 (Unarmed) +1 (Unarmed) -1 (Bite) -1 (Arms-wielded weapon) or +1 (Unarmed Arms) +1 (Unarmed Arms) -1 (Bite) -1 (Claw) -1 (Claw) The latter because now all of their 'natural weapon' attacks could be used in combination with a wielded manufactured weapon, so are they all valid now? Like I said, edge-case the November 22nd, 2006 2.5 FAQ doesn't yet cover to my knowledge.
Cael 12-06-06, 05:21 PM	You get all the Flurry plus the natural attacks as secondary natural attacks. For example, a level 1 Lizardfolk Monk have the following full attack (ignoring Lizardfolk HD): -2/-2 Flurry + -7/-7 claws + -7 bite This is supported by any number of monsters in the MM that has weapons and natural attacks (devils and demons in particular). A full attack action is a full attack action is a full attack action. There is nothing that states Flurry is different from that (other than the restriction of non-Monk weapons not being part of the Flurry). You may not use the natural attacks as part of the Flurry, but you can use the natural attacks after.
WolfWings 12-06-06, 06:18 PM	You get all the Flurry plus the natural attacks as secondary natural attacks. For example, a level 1 Lizardfolk Monk have the following full attack (ignoring Lizardfolk HD): -2/-2 Flurry + -7/-7 claws + -7 bite This is supported by any number of monsters in the MM that has weapons and natural attacks (devils and demons in particular). A full attack action is a full attack action is a full attack action. There is nothing that states Flurry is different from that (other than the restriction of non-Monk weapons not being part of the Flurry). You may not use the natural attacks as part of the Flurry, but you can use the natural attacks after. Quoting from the November 22nd, 2006 3.5 Master FAQ, p14, top-left: For example, a typical lizardfolk can attack with a club and its bite as part of a full attack. [Or two claws and a bite.] [...] If it were a 1st-level monk, it could make a flurry of blows (using unarmed strikes, not claw attacks), then add a bite attack as a secondary attack. Each unarmed strike would have a -2 penalty (from flurry of blows), and the bite attack would have a -4 penalty (-2 from flurry of blows and -2 from being a secondary [natural] weapon, reduced from -5 by Multiattack). Or did they merely not have the Lizardfolk add the extra two claw attacks, and make the unarmed attacks with knees and/or elbows in the example? I may be reading more into the example than was intended, which is why I'm quoting all these FAQ bits to try to make sure I'm not missing something that would restrict the Krenshar Monk a PC is thinking about from having five attacks (albeit at moderately crummy BaB bonuses) at 5th level. I think the PC's being inventive for thinking of the idea, but even he's worried it's bending the rules rather far and wanted me to check with the group here so I'm trying to play devil's advocate and make sure nobody's missing anything. :-)
Cael 12-06-06, 06:45 PM	Quoting from the November 22nd, 2006 3.5 Master FAQ, p14, top-left: Or did they merely not have the Lizardfolk add the extra two claw attacks, and make the unarmed attacks with knees and/or elbows in the example? I may be reading more into the example than was intended, which is why I'm quoting all these FAQ bits to try to make sure I'm not missing something that would restrict the Krenshar Monk a PC is thinking about from having five attacks (albeit at moderately crummy BaB bonuses) at 5th level. I think the PC's being inventive for thinking of the idea, but even he's worried it's bending the rules rather far and wanted me to check with the group here so I'm trying to play devil's advocate and make sure nobody's missing anything. :-) They assumed that the Lizardfolk is hitting with his fists, but the Monk can hit with anything, so it isn't valid. It all depends on your martial arts style, I guess. Personally, when I spar, I tend to use my legs and feet more than my hands. I only bring my hands into the action when I am pressed by conditions (need for speedy take-downs, etc.). A Karate, Judo or Akido artist would probably do things the other way around. So it is up to your player to define his style of martial arts, I guess.
WolfWings 12-07-06, 06:05 PM	And this is why I like to check here patiently and see what the consensus is instead of making snap judgements whenever possible. :D
beatchyvon 12-07-06, 07:20 PM	My interpretation of the flurry of blows has always been that it basicly replaces the primary attack. The lizard man gets two claw attacks and a bite secondary. So you could say that the two claws are both the primary attack because they have the same attack bonus or you could be nice and say only one counts as primary and the second is just a bonus? So they either get two unarmed attacks, a claw attack, and a bite attack or they get just the two unarmed attacks and a bite attack which might be worth it depending on their claw damage.