Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deladrion Garthin 10-01-03, 07:16 PM	A ten level, 3.5 version of a monk PrC I posted on the old PrC boards, enjoy :D Aikido Master v1.0 http://www.aikidoatlanta.com/images/throw.gif "...So what exactly is this thing called Aikido? Okay, it is a martial art. The most effective martial art in the world, I believe. Because it does not rely on speed, or strength, or youth, or athleticism, or size, or weight for its success. It relies on your own internal mind/body state. And it relies on the fact that, when someone attacks another human being, that attacker has broken some unwritten universal law, and has thereby made himself vulnerable. What may be totally new to you is that part about the attacker being vulnerable. It usually seems that the person being attacked is the vulnerable one. But the truth of the matter is, when someone attacks you, they commit their body to that attack - at least for an instant. And if, at that instant, you don't behave as expected - for example, if you move out of the way - that attacker will momentarily lose both physical and mental balance. It would be like standing in a room and casually leaning against a wall, only to find that what you thought was a wall was only the thinnest of tissue paper. Even though your initial action of leaning was not violent, the aftermath (falling through the tissue-paper wall) would be. In a similar way, Aikido robs attackers of what looked like an easy target, and thereby makes them lose balance. But Aikido Kokikai takes this idea even further. Suppose somebody else was standing next to that tissue paper wall. And just as they leaned against it and began to lose balance, you gave him a push in the same direction they were falling. How hard would it be to push that person? Pretty easy, right? Well, that's exactly how Aikido works. We first get the attacker to lose balance. Then we keep him off-balance, and move him where we would like him to go. " ~Body Mind and Modem website created by Aikido Kokikai of Rochester, New York. Hit Die: d6 Requirements: To qualify to become an Aikido Master, a character must fulfill the following criteria: Alignment: Any non-evil Lawful Skills: Balance 9 ranks, Concentration 6 ranks, Sense Motive 9 ranks, Diplomacy 6 ranks Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will Special: A character may substitute the Still Mind class feature for the Iron Will feat for the purposes of qualifying for the Aikido Master class. Special: Must be trained under an Aikido Master of at least 8th level at least until the character reaches 1st level of Aikido Master. Multiclassing: Aikido Masters may multiclass freely with the Monk class as well as other classes that may do so. An Aikido Master that takes a level in another class may no longer take levels of Aikido Master, though he retains all of his abilities. Class Skills: The Aikido Master's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are … Balance (dex), Climb (str), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Heal (wis), Iaijutsu Focus (cha), Jump (str), Knowledge (arcane) (int), Knowledge (religion) (int), Listen (wis), Profession (wis), Sense Motive (wis), Spot (wis), Swim (str), and Tumble(dex). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Level BAB Fort Ref Will -------------------------- 1 +0 +2 +2 +2 2 +1 +3 +3 +3 3 +1 +3 +3 +3 4 +2 +4 +4 +4 5 +2 +4 +4 +4 6 +3 +5 +5 +5 7 +3 +5 +5 +5 8 +4 +6 +6 +6 9 +4 +6 +6 +6 10 +5 +7 +7 +7 * Level Special Abilities ----------------------------------------------------------- 1 One-Point, Monk Abilities, The Gentle Way, Nonviolence 2 Great Throw, Harmonic Flow I 3 Bonus Martial Arts Feat 4 One-Point (Standard Action) Harmonic Flow II 5 Greater Throw, Ability Boost (Wisdom +1) 6 Bonus Martial Arts Feat 7 One-Point (Move Action) 8 Aggressive Throw 9 Bonus Martial Arts Feat, Timeless Body 10 One-Point (Free Action), Ability Boost (Wisdom +1) Class Features: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Aikido Master gains no new weapon or armor proficiences. An Aikido Master who wears armor does not benefit from any Bonus Martial Arts Feats chosen with this class, nor does he benefit from Great Throw, Greater Throw, or Aggressive Throw, and may not add his Wisdom modifier to his AC. Monk Abilities (ex): The Aikido Master’s level stacks with any levels he possesses in the Monk class for determining unarmored speed, and unarmored AC. Aikdo Master and Monk levels stack for determining Flurry of Blows attack bonus. The Gentle Way(ex): The Aikido Master is trained in a variety of throwing and tripping techniques, as well as joint locks, but actual body strikes are not emphasized. When using Improved Trip to make a free unarmed attack against an opponent, the Aikido Master's level stacks with his Monk level for determining his unarmed damage. Additionally, his levels stack to determine unarmed damage when he makes a grapple check to deal damage. Thus a Monk 6/ Aikido Master 6 deals 1d8 damage with an unarmed attack, or 2d6 damage when the attack is made via Improved Trip, or when making a grapple check to deal damage to an opponent. One-Point (ex): The first lesson of Aikido is to find One-Point, and to be able to maintain it. Once per day, per level of Aikido Master, the character may find his center, his One-Point. While in this meditative state, his mind is more focused yet calm, serene. His muscles become more relaxed, better able to respond to his wishes. As a full round action, the Aikido master finds One-point and maintains it for a number of rounds equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. While maintaining One-Point, the Aikido Master may use his heightened insight to aid him in battle. In all rolls and checks in which a Strength or Dexterity modifer are used, except for damage (skills, attacks, saves, grapples, trips, bullrushes, etc.), the Aikido Master may opt to use his Wisdom modifier instead. He also applies double his Wisdom modifier to all checks and rolls to which his Wisdom modifier applies (saves, skills, etc.). Additionally, he applies his Wisdom modifier to AC if he is unarmored, or double his Wisdom modifier if he may already do so. Finally, while maintaining One-Point, the Aikido Master may apply his Dodge bonus to AC against an additional number of opponents equal to half his Wisdom modifier (So an Aikido Master with 18 Wisdom could apply his Dodge bonus to AC against three opponents while maintaining One-Point). At later levels, the Aikido Master may find One-point as a standard action, a move action, or a free action. Nonviolence: The Aikido Master has learned to take into account the spiritual harmony of those around him, and he is reluctant to disrupt it. The Aikido Master is prohibited from knowingly dealing lethal (anything but subdual) damage to living opponents. Things that are immune to subdual damage may be dealt lethal damage. The Aikido Master is also prohibited from provoking others to violent action, either physically or otherwise. Finally, the Aikido Master is prohibited from knowingly dealing damage (not even subdual damage) to any living opponent without first trying to diffuse the situation with a Diplomacy check to alter their attitudes. An Aikido Master who violates these principles loses all benefits of the Aikido Master class until he contemplates on his violent behavior. Through strict daily meditation, the Aikido Master may regain the abilities of the Aikido Master class at a rate of one level per day. For example, if a 6th level Aikido Master has commited a violent act, he will regain his 1st level abilities after the 1st day of mediation, his 2nd levels abilities after his 2nd day of meditation, and so on util he has performed six days of strict mediation. Great Throw (ex): When the Aikido Master trips an opponent, he may choose for that opponent to land in any unoccupied, adjacent 5’ square. So, if an Aikido Master is facing off against a single opponent, he may trip the opponent and force the opponent to land prone in any one of the eight squares that the Aikido Master threatens. Harmonic Flow I (ex): The Aikido Master learns very quickly that the strongest opponent may be overcome with gentleness, relaxation, and ki (or positive thinking). When making trip checks, the Aikido Master’s opponent may not opt to use his Strength modifier to make the check, though he may still choose to use his Dexterity modifier. Harmonic Flow II (ex): The Aikido Master has learned to use joint locks and pressure points to subdue aggressors. When the Aikido Master makes a grapple check, the opponent does not add his Strength modifier to resist it. The opponent also does not recieve his Strength bonus when trying to break an Aikdo Master's pin. Otherwise, his opponent still gets his Strength bonus to break a grapple or deal damage in a grapple. Greater Throw (ex): The Aikido Master may now throw an opponent up to a distance of 10’ from himself (two 5’squares). He chooses an unoccupied square within 10’ of himself when tripping an opponent. There must be an uninterrupted, clear path between the Aikido Master and the target square. For example, an Aikido Master could not throw an orc through another orc to a square 10’ behind him. The opponent lands prone within this square. Even if the opponent lands more than 5’ from the Aikido Master, the Aikido Master may still make a free attack, though this must be an unarmed attack, as though the opponent were prone via Improved Trip. In this instance, this attack roll and damage represents damage caused by the throw itself, and not from a strike. Ki attacks, such as Stunning Fist, Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood, and Unbalancing Strike, may be used in conjunction with a throw of greater than 5’, even though the damage does not result from a strike from the Aikido Master. However, as with a normal unarmed strike, no damage is dealt with a throw while using the Freezing the Lifeblood feat. Aggressive Throw (ex): The Aikido Master may now throw an opponent up to a distance of 15’ from his current position (three 5’ squares). In addition, he is no longer required to choose an unoccupied square, nor an uninterrupted path. If a creature lies within the target square, or within the path of the target square, the Aikido Master makes a ranged attack roll against the creature. If he hits, then the tripped opponent stops within that square, and the creature struck by the tripped opponent takes damage as though from the Aikido Master’s unarmed strike. Note that this does not guarantee that damage will be dealt to the creature that was thrown (the attack against the tripped opponent is made normally). A creature struck by a tripped opponent is not subject to Ki attacks, such as those listed under Greater Throw, though the tripped opponent may still be subject to them. Alternatively, if a creature is thrown into a solid, unyielding surface (such as a wall, door, tree, or portcullis) the creature sustains double damage from the Aikido Master’s throw, if the attack granted by Improved Trip succeeds. Regardless of whether or not the attack from Improved Trip succeeds, the object takes damage as though from the Aikido Master’s unarmed strike. If the object is destroyed by this damage, the creature passes through it to the target square (or remains in that square if that was the target square). For determining unarmed damage dealt to creatures and objects struck by an Aikido Master's thrown opponent, Aikido Master levels and Monk levels stack. This is because this damage is a function of how forcefully the tripped opponent is thrown, as with The Gentle Way. Timeless Body (ex): Upon attaining 9th level, an Aikido Master no longer takes penalties to his ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that he has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses stilla ccrue, and the Aikido Master still dies of old age when his time is up. Bonus Martial Arts Feats: Focusing on defensive techniques and a battle method that does not have to result in his opponent's death, the Aikido Master may choose the following as bonus feats at the levels so indicated: Defensive Throw, Deflect Arrows, Grappling Block, Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike, Improved Disarm, Defensive Strike, Superior Expertise, Fists of Iron, Improved Grapple, Choke Hold, Earth’s Embrace, Prone Attack, Stunning Fist, Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Life Blood, Unbalancing Strike, Pain Touch.
Deladrion Garthin 10-02-03, 06:32 PM	Got rid of the first half of the flavor text... thought maybe nobody was reading it to the end :D Seriously though, any comments? Any at all? Just a "Yeah... I read this" would do, seriously. I mean it. :angel: :bump:
Toptomcat 10-03-03, 10:19 AM	Class Feature: Still Mind OR Iron Will Iron Will's a feat. Also, it strikes me as odd that sucj a defensive martial art would contribute to a monk's unarmed damage progression.
Deladrion Garthin 10-03-03, 01:10 PM	Iron Will's a feat. I'm aware of this. The PrC requires either the Still Mind class feature, or the Iron Will feat. I've seen how Shadowfoot worded the same requirement in his Zen Archer/Blade, and I think that works better, so I think I'll use it. Much more clear, that way ;) Also, it strikes me as odd that sucj a defensive martial art would contribute to a monk's unarmed damage progression. True, the martial art is defensive in nature, but it is still no less effective if an attacker may only be dealt with forcefully. I've seen numerous articles about serious injuries and deaths occuring during an Aikido classes, though all seem to be the result of either the nage (defender) or the uke (attacker) doing something incorrectly, be it an incorrectly performed throw or a poor recovery after being thrown. Obviously, someone who isn't trained in Aikido isn't going to know how to roll with the throw, or what the Aikido practicioner is doing, so they'd most certainly sustain damage from the violent impact with the ground. Needless to say, this is no sparring in Aikido, simply because of the dangers to the students. Also, I tried to make the class in such a way so that it isn't taken by monks who just want to beat stuff up. I suspect this is your concern with the unarmed damage progression, ie. "An Aikido Master 10/Monk 10 can punch something for just as much damage as a Monk 20". This is true, but the class is specifically designed to encourage the Aikido Master to trip his opponent. Note the bad BAB (+0 - +5). It's much easier to make the touch attack to begin the trip, and then make the attack roll against the opponent when they've got -4 to AC for being prone. Also, for flavor, one could say that even when an Aikido Master throws an opponent 5', the damage from the Improved Trip attack represents damage from striking the ground, and not from a strike. The mechanics are the same, it just looks different :D Any other comments/ideas? :D I got some good feedback from people who practiced Aikido with the earlier version on the old boards, any of them still around? :angel:
Deladrion Garthin 10-03-03, 01:40 PM	Actually... I was thinking about the unarmed damage thing as I was away to lunch. I've decided that I'll add a stipulation that allows the Monk and Aikido Master levels to stack for determining Unarmed Damage only when the Aikido Master is dealing damage with the free attack granted by Improved Trip. :) So an the Aikido Master's punch and kick is less effective than the straight Monk's, but his trip/throw is just as effective as said Monk's punch or kick.
Toptomcat 10-03-03, 01:42 PM	Give it Craft and Profession...ALL classes have that as a class skill.
Carrick 10-03-03, 01:47 PM	Now this may be overpowered, but it seems like it would make more sense if, when throwing someone into someone else, it was a ranged touch attack, seeing as full-plate mail will not stop you from being hit by someone else. And perhaps instead of damaging, it be a trip attack? Is there some reason for this?:confused: Or I could just be absolutely insane?
Deladrion Garthin 10-03-03, 02:52 PM	Give it Craft and Profession...ALL classes have that as a class skill. Will do :) Now this may be overpowered, but it seems like it would make more sense if, when throwing someone into someone else, it was a ranged touch attack, seeing as full-plate mail will not stop you from being hit by someone else. And perhaps instead of damaging, it be a trip attack? Is there some reason for this? Not insane at all... I had to think a lot about how I wanted the final, aggressive throw to work. I considered Reflex saves, touch attacks, and normal attacks. All seemed to make sense. But I decided that it'd be like any other thrown weapon. A touch attack wouldn't be accurate, as a person in Full Plate might be 'hit' by it, but he may be able to shrug it off as his plate armor absorbs the force of the blow. The same with a dragon's natural armor, heh. I also considered that it might knock down the opponent being hit by the throw-ee, but I decided not to mess with the mechanics... I've got a bad habit of making an ability needlessly complicated and wanted to avoid that here :blush: Speaking of which, I hope the Aggressive Throw and Great Throw are worded well enough to be understandable... any suggestions on how to revise the wording are welcome.
Deladrion Garthin 10-05-03, 04:50 PM	:bump:
Toptomcat 10-05-03, 05:14 PM	The wording on both Throw abilities is straightforward and fine.
Capt. Pixel 10-20-03, 05:17 PM	Being an afficionado of the "Honorable Art of Getting the H** out of the Way", I love this PrC. I hope to put into practice at the earliest opportunity. :D I am a little concerned with this character's ability to deal with various, more esoteric monsters, tho'. We'll just have to try it and see. :) :cool:
the_heart 10-21-03, 10:30 AM	looks good..... a (suggestion/stray thought) re:one point, would the duration not be better as a function of wisdom, in a similar way to barbs rage. i.e. 3+wis modifier rounds, as opposed to fixed duration?
Deladrion Garthin 10-21-03, 08:14 PM	I love this PrC. I hope to put into practice at the earliest opportunity. :cool: Then my job here is done a (suggestion/stray thought) re:one point, would the duration not be better as a function of wisdom, in a similar way to barbs rage. i.e. 3+wis modifier rounds, as opposed to fixed duration? :embarrass Quite likely... I don't know why I didn't think of that myself...
Capt. Pixel 10-21-03, 08:18 PM	Originally posted by the_heart looks good..... a (suggestion/stray thought) re:one point, would the duration not be better as a function of wisdom, in a similar way to barbs rage. i.e. 3+wis modifier rounds, as opposed to fixed duration? I like this modification. I think I'll incorporate it into the ver1.1. :cool:
SoulLord 10-31-03, 12:57 PM	interesting just two add some comments definitely a practicioner of aikido is harder to hit than a regular monk so it should be reflected accordingly on another thing the aikido practicioner should be able to pin an oponent more efectively (anyone who has been subject to a joint lock would agree with me) as for the throwing a humble suggestion keep the range of the throw close 5 feet except when being charged, then you can throw them all the distance that they charged you for SoulLord
Capt. Pixel 11-14-03, 01:55 PM	I've had a chance to put the PrC to paper. There are a couple of items I think might be adjusted. 1) Sense Motive is not a class skill for the 3.0 Monk. I suggest the required ranks be changed to 4. (maximum for a non-class skill at 6th level) 2) One Point is too powerful. But only by a little bit. I'd suggest changing the feat to the following effects. 'casting' times are good. (full round, standard action, move action, etc) Duration is good (3+ newly adjusted Wisdom bonus) Double the Wisdom bonus. If the Strength bonus or Dexterity bonus is LESS THAN the Wisdom bonus then apply (not add) the original, unaltered Wisdom bonus to those attributes. All skills, attacks, damage, saving throws affected by STR,DEX,WIS are temporarily adjusted with the new bonus for the duration of the Feat. -------------------------------------------------------- A couple of examples: S11, D14, C12, I10, W14, C8 By applying One Point the attribute bonuses become: S+2, D+2, C+1, I+0,W+4, C-1 (Dex is already +2 - no Wis bonus) Duration - 7 rounds S11, D14, C14, I12, W17, C10 By applying One Point the attribute bonuses become: S+3, D+3, C+2, I+1,W+6, C+0 (Str and Dex both benefit by +3 Wis) Duration - 9 rounds -------------------------------------------------------- I'd also suggest compatable advancement with the Monk class. You'd be able to interchange advancement in either class. I would keep the Monk Abilities Feat as you have it. Given these changes, though, there'd have to be something more to draw a marial arts practitioner to gain levels in this Art. Perhaps one level earlier access to a couple of Monk Feats like Abundant Step at A.M. level 5 (In honor of Morehei Ueshiba) and Timeless Body at A.M. level 10 (In honor of Dick Clark :) ) Or an additive +1 extraordinary bonus to all Wisdom related skills, feats, saving throws, AC, etc. +1 at 4th level A.M., +2 at 7th level A.M., +3 at 10th level A.M. Okay. There it is. I'm runnin' her up the flagpole. Wadda ya think? :cool:
Deladrion Garthin 11-14-03, 05:30 PM	definitely a practicioner of aikido is harder to hit than a regular monk so it should be reflected accordingly The Aikido Master applies double his Wisdom modifier to his AC while in One-Point, and he also applies his Dodge bonus to multiple opponents (opening up possibilities for multiple Grapple Blocks, or Defensive Throws, the best feats on the bonus list, IMO). Admittedly, they aren't just handed a permenant +1 AC every few levels like a monk, but the One-Point's defensive benefits greatly outweigh that, IMO. on another thing the aikido practicioner should be able to pin an oponent more efectively (anyone who has been subject to a joint lock would agree with me) Good point. Perhaps I should add to the More Powerful Than Strength ability that opponents may not apply their strength bonuses to Grapple checks. If I add this, should it be added to the existing More Powerful Than Strength, or should it perhaps be gained a little later? No throws further than 5 feet? :( Where's the fun in that!? ;) Thanks for the feedback SoulLord I've had a chance to put the PrC to paper. There are a couple of items I think might be adjusted. 1) Sense Motive is not a class skill for the 3.0 Monk. I suggest the required ranks be changed to 4. (maximum for a non-class skill at 6th level) Sure isn't. But it IS a 3.5 Monk class skill, and this is specifically a 3.5 PrC (says so on the first post) ;) 2) One Point is too powerful. But only by a little bit. I'd suggest changing the feat to the following effects. I've been expecting someone to say this ever since I first posted it! :D I was afraid of that, but wasn't sure if it was such a big deal that it would be brought up. Duration is good (3+ newly adjusted Wisdom bonus) Double the Wisdom bonus. Hmm... really the only suggestion I'm not so sure about. At first I thought a solid minute (the original duration) was a bit long, and 3+double wis modifier is most likely going to be more than a minute. I'll think about it. If the Strength bonus or Dexterity bonus is LESS THAN the Wisdom bonus then apply (not add) the original, unaltered Wisdom bonus to those attributes. Sounds good. All skills, attacks, damage, saving throws affected by STR,DEX,WIS are temporarily adjusted with the new bonus for the duration of the Feat. Sounds good, with the exception of the damage. I purposefully left damage unaltered by One-Point. Otherwise this looks like a good way to put it. I'd also suggest compatable advancement with the Monk class. You'd be able to interchange advancement in either class. I would keep the Monk Abilities Feat as you have it. Same here. A simply omission on my part. I should have added somewhere that a Monk may multiclass freely with Aikido Master. Given these changes, though, there'd have to be something more to draw a marial arts practitioner to gain levels in this Art. Agreed Perhaps one level earlier access to a couple of Monk Feats like Abundant Step at A.M. level 5 (In honor of Morehei Ueshiba) and Timeless Body at A.M. level 10 (In honor of Dick Clark ) I'd rather steer clear of clearly supernatural abilities such as Abundant Step. Timeless Body wouldn't be a bad idea... (Dick Clark :rofl: ) Or an additive +1 extraordinary bonus to all Wisdom related skills, feats, saving throws, AC, etc. +1 at 4th level A.M., +2 at 7th level A.M., +3 at 10th level A.M. Hmm, I think a straight +1 bonus to all Wisdom related checks might be a little over the top, but I think a +1 Ability Bonus to Wisdom would be perfectly fine, gained maybe at 5th and 10th levels. Okay. There it is. I'm runnin' her up the flagpole. Wadda ya think? All very good suggestions. What do you think the class looks like with: The suggestions for One-Point (Well, almost all of them) +1 Wisdom at 5th and 10th levels Timeless Body at 10th level And negate the strength bonus of opponents grappling with the Aikido Master, gained at 2nd level or later Thanks for all the feedback Capt. Pixel! I almost never get the chance to play my own PrCs, and am actually staying away from monks for the time being... my last one got smashed into a flaming pulp by a fire elemental, yeesh.
SoulLord 11-17-03, 03:33 PM	ive been pondering as of late what is esentially any tecnique of aikido in all cases its expecting an attack and either act before the attack takes places or not be there when the attack strikes the first part i imagine in d&d terms a ready action whenever anyone attacks me y either throw them. or pin him that could be out as follows Anyone attacking the aikido master is subject first to either a throw or a pin unless the aikido master is already pinning someone this can be done a number of times equal to its (1.- dex modifier , 2.- wis modifier 3.- dex + wis modifier) taking up an attack of oportunity the second part whenever an attack misses the aikido master he can make a free throw or pin unless the aikido master is already pining someone this can be done a number of times equal to its (1.- dex modifier , 2.- wis modifier 3.- dex + wis modifier) taking up an attack of oportunity too powerful? SoulLord
Deladrion Garthin 11-17-03, 04:32 PM	A good observation SoulLord That is essentially how I imagine the Defensive Throw and Grapple Block working (Although grapple block takes their weapon, and isn't really a grapple...). Though these aren't really ready actions, they can accomplish the same effect. With defensive throw, the opponent misses you and immediately afterward you trip them. With grapple block they opponent would strike you but you may disarm them before the blow lands. As the rules are explained in the PHB v3.5, pg. 160, you could already take a ready action to trip or grapple a person who attacks you. You would simply take a ready action to 'Trip (or Grapple) the first person to attack me', and when you get attacked you may try to trip them or grapple them immediately before their attack actually takes place, and therefor their attack may be rendered ineffective. I actually hadn't considered combat in this way, and it may be fairly effective (if only you could take full defense before readying the action, it would be perfect... blasted new Haste spell...). It might be interesting to grant bonuses to trip and grapple attempts made as readied actions. If I'd thought about it before hand I might had worked some into this class, but I'm satisfied with how it's turning out. Thanks again for the feedback :D
Derren S. 11-17-03, 04:55 PM	A main technique of aikido is to use the strength of the enemy against him. All techniques I learned begin with using the momentum of the enemy to unbalance him. Maybe it is a good idea to let the aikido master use the enemies strength bonus for grapples and pins if it is higher than his own abilities.
Deladrion Garthin 11-17-03, 05:19 PM	Eh, a valid suggestion and I might consider it if it were used only on Defensive Throw or when you take a ready action to trip or grapple when you're attacked (Those are really the only instances when you're opponent really has any momentum to use against him). But I think that might be a little overpowered, as far as the class is set up right now. With the Aikido Master getting his (Hopefully very good) wisdom modifer to these checks, and +4 for the Improved feats, and his BAB, while his opponent gets only his BAB, tripping and grappling should be easy, but not entirely guarenteed. I don't want the Aikido Master's advantage to be so overwhelming that combat is a joke. When I see a demonstration of an Aikido practicioner defending himself from several attackers, it doesn't seem out of the question, but in DnD it needs to balanced to some degree, I'm afraid.
Capt. Pixel 11-17-03, 11:54 PM	If you really want to simulate this unusual martial art, you should incorporate some of its other features. For instance: An Aikidoka never initiates a battle. He strives for the perfect outcome of harmony for all involved. (kinda counter to DnD, eh?) That's the Wisdom talking there, I'll bet ya. An Aikidoka must inform his opponent of his potentially fatal abilities in accordance with the local laws or risk arrest and prosecution. All hand-to-hand conflicts will result in either a pin or a projection (throw) away from the Aikidoka. From a projection, the uke (thrown one) is on his own, in terms of taking damage. But a Good Aikidoka would try to aim for a soft landing spot. In a pin, if the uke taps the ground twice, the Aikidoka must let him up and then bow and offer thanks for the training. :D (it's an inside joke, folks. :rolleyes: ) At the conclusion of a combative encounter, the Aikidoka will bow and thank the opponents for an invigorating excursion. Ideally, the Aikido Master should be able to step into a brewing conflict and defuse the situation before it ever comes to blows. (How about the ability to Calm Emotions a number of times a day equal to the Wis bonus at maybe 4th level) I'd say that the suggested "Attack first or don't be there" might work something like this: If the opponent Moves (including a 5' step) adjacent to the Aikido Master, then the Aikido Master, if not Grappling, gets a Free Trip Attack. I figure opponent's movement is necessary to provide the momentum for the 'throw'. You could call it "Hem of the Hakama". ;) He can do this a number of times a day equal to his Aikido Master level. This does not count against AoP or Combat Reflexes. Combine this with Aggresive Throw, and you've got a guy that nobody would want to approach. This is kind of fun. I can hardly wait to see what you end up with D.G. :cool:
Deladrion Garthin 11-18-03, 03:58 PM	Hahaha, I can just imagine that all the bandits in a particular region have learned to carry reach weapons because they know an Aikido Master lives nearby. I was thinking about it, and although your suggestions are ultimately roleplaying related, I can at least encourage that kind of an attitude with a particular restriction... What if the Aikido Master is allowed to deal only subdual damage to living creatures (unless the opponent is immune, ie. Constructs and Undead)? What if the AM is prohibited from provoking others into acts of violence, either physically or otherwise? Additionally, they would be prohibited from doing anything to deal damage (subdual or otherwise, but may still trip, disarm, or grapple) to a living opponent unless they first attempt to alter their attitude with a Diplomacy check. dum.. dum... DUM! I know it's a harsh restriction for any DnD character, but I think that it would be absolutely perfect for the Aikido Master (and balancing). As things are, it looks like a high level Aikido Master, with the right equipment, would be a total defensive AC, trip, disarm, and grapple monkey that could neutralize just about any other character of equal level (or even mulitple characters of equal level). I think the only way to prevent that from being abused is essentially to mess up any Aikido Master PC who thinks of going on violent rampages. I'll just incorporate this into Gentle Way, at 1st level
detectevil 11-19-03, 08:24 AM	Here is the thing... the D&D monk's fighting style resembles Kung fu or karate. Previous training in either of this styles is particularly helpful when you learn Aikido. So, levels in the monk class should not stack with levels of Aikido Master for any purpose. Aikido master should, though, give you a Monk-like AC bonus, Wis bonus to AC if you don't have it, but that's it. The state of mind you describe in "One-Point" is in my opinion no more special in Aikido than in any other martial art, so I would leave it to the Monks AC bonus. And, since it is a real world martial art, I think the PrC should be more based on real things. What Aikido training actually gives you is a circunstance bonus to Grapple and Trips (The locks and throws used are more efficient), ability to fight with no penalty while prone, and actually gain a bonus to trip from that position (suwari waza), ability to grapple without loosing your own dexteirty bonus (since Aikido locks usually involve only holding one arm or even one hand), and gaining a free grapple or trip attempt agains an opponent that misses you in combat. Just my opinions, of course
Deladrion Garthin 11-20-03, 10:17 PM	I have to say that I disagree with your comments on the Monk class. The style a monk character represents is entirely up to how the player wants to play that monk in and out of combat, and can be represented especially well by their feat choices. My favorite monk character that I've played thusfar was a very passive, defense-oriented monk (if I'd had the Aikido Master PrC at the time, he would have been one). I've also played a monk character that was more akin to how you seem to see them; he was not nearly as defensive, and his fighting style was straight forward and fierce, I'd imagine his style whould have been Karate (Unfortunately, this one got smashed by a fire elemental ... HARD. I'll never underestimate the need for dodgeyness again). Anyway, the point I'm trying to make, in my own rambling way, is that you can't accurately say that "All monks in DnD fight with styles X, Y, and Z. Therefor they cannot know anything about style Epsilon." A monk's effective style can be whatever the player wants it to be. I made One-Point a large feature of the class because state of mind seems to be emphasized in Aikido more so than, say... Karate or Tae Kwon Do. And I think the bonuses to Trip and Grapple and such should be based on Wisdom like the existing Monk's abilities are, representing mental clarity. Additionally, rather than a straight Circimstance bonus, I think it makes more sense for the bonuses to be a function of an existing stat (Wisdom in this case), so that of two Aikido Masters of equal level, the one with the clearest mental state (Wisdom) will be the more effective of the two. Also, the 'circumstance' created by the Aikido style is represented by the fact that the opponent does not recieve their strength modifier to their opposed Trip and half their Grapple checks. They can't effectively resist the Aikido Master's techniques using brute strength. I hesitate to just grant free trip and grapple attempts to the Aikido Master as a class feature. I'm afraid it might be overpowering, even if it were only usable once per round, when used in conjunction with Grapple Block, Defensive Throw, and ready actions trip or grapple attackers. I like the idea of retaining their dex bonus to AC while grappling, does anyone know of an existing feat that grants this ability? If not I might just add that to Harmonic Flow II. Anyway, I appreciate the feedback detectevil. I can see where you're coming from mostly, but this is just how I see it working.
Deladrion Garthin 11-20-03, 10:18 PM	[EDIT] ~ Stupid double post... :rolleyes:
detectevil 11-22-03, 09:35 PM	Thinking about it, Aikido is nice for d20 Modern or other games, but I think it's a little out of place in D&D. Aikido is based in a human . I a world where so may things are non-humanoids, it seems out of place. I mean, how the hell do you irimi nage a centaur? And how good it is to nikyo something that has no hands, like some Yuan-ti? What can an Aikido master do against a beholder?
Capt. Pixel 11-23-03, 11:59 AM	Originally posted by detectevil Thinking about it, Aikido is nice for d20 Modern or other games, but I think it's a little out of place in D&D. Aikido is based in a human . I a world where so may things are non-humanoids, it seems out of place. I mean, how the hell do you irimi nage a centaur? And how good it is to nikyo something that has no hands, like some Yuan-ti? What can an Aikido master do against a beholder? These are all concerns that I have too. In a humano-centric melieu, the Aikido Master might be a great PrC. In a classical Magic/Medieval/Mythological D&D game, this PrC might prove to be too weak. After all, Aikido is a style that takes advantage of 'human' physiology and psychology. If you're fighting something that has elbows or knees that bend backwards, or something without a spine or skeletal structure, an Aikidoka is going to have a much more difficult time 'putting on a move'. For instance, I don't think any aikidoka that I know would be able to trip a common horse or fight a large dog hand-to-hand much better than anyone else with some fighting experience. What would happen if you tried to atemi (pressure points) a Dwarf. Are his nerve endings going to be in the expected locations? Will his response to a 'dry' atemi be similar to a human's response? Probably not. BUT - in a predominately humano-centric melieu, this PrC would kick some serious butt. I LIKE IT!!!! :cool:
mercurywyrm 11-23-03, 03:59 PM	OK, being an Aikido student myself I have a few things to say. •One point dosn't make much sense, it is just a power increase that doesn't actually reflect what you do in aikido. You do find your center and keep your balance by not moving out of your own center while you bring your opponent out of theirs. •This is a reactive martial art that allows you to trip or grapple a dodged opponent very effectively. I reccomend representing that properly. I would allow them to initiate a "centered" grapple or trip attack against an opponent who they have their dodge bonus applied to who attacks them. This ability functions like an attack of oportunity but only works against missing opponents they applied their dodge bonus to. I think in addition to this they can apply their wisdom modifier to the initial check of this "centered" grapple or trip. •Any opponent who initiates a grapple against them and succeds must succed at an immediate second vs. grapple check or become pinned or triped at the aikido master's option •Aikido master may apply thier dodge bonus fromt he dodge feat to a number of opponents equal to their wizdom modifier. However, this number of additional opponents may never be more than their level in aikido master. •As an Aikido master gains levels they gain the exotic weapon proficiencies, LVL 3 Bokken (Wooden Wakazashi or Katana that deals subdual damage or real damage when weilded by an aikido master at the aikido master's option), LVL 4 Bo (Quarterstaff except the aikido master may chose to deal subdual instead), and LVL 6 Jo(club that looks like a short quarterstaff but can also be used as a crutch or walking stick and the aikido may chose to deal subdaul instead) •At level 10 all attacks against the aikido master provoke attacks of opportunity unless the opponent is out of reach, this is in addition to the attacks against attackers they apply their dodge bonus to. •It also requires some tweaking in the grapple, throw, and trip departments, and some work on the rules of aikido and the way opponents can and cannot take real damage from the aikido masters moves. I also think that an opponent may use thier tumble check instead of a grapple check to avoid taking damage from an aikido master's grapples and trips/throws but only to avoid taking damage I hope this helps.:D
detectevil 11-23-03, 07:36 PM	As I said, Deladrion obviously went for a more fantastic conception of Aikido, when I would go for a more realistic one. But netherless, whenever one decides to master in Aikido, he is making a serious specialization. In modern world, where fighting is basicly against un-armored humans, Aikido is de best choice. But an aikidoka gives up many options when choosing this fighing stile. A karateka might try to use his breaking blows to knock down a fragile door or fence. A kung fu fighter might use the training in jump and tumble to make acrobatic prowess (Jackie Chan is like a magician in this matter). And a master of Muay Thai can resist hard blows from almost every thing. Where was I going with this? Oh, yes... to, the class can easely seem overpowered, when, in fact, is just very specialized. Oh, and don't forget an aikido master should be able to trip opponents with reach by using their weapons as leverage. Or they could drop the weapon to avoid being triped, as it often happen when we're training.
SoulLord 11-26-03, 01:36 PM	He he he true its usually much harder to do an ikyo to a charging dog but even a dog has joints and they dont like ikyo as much as one doesnt like to being bitten :) as far as weapons go i would say the bokken the katana and the bo would be additions to the weapons list SoulLord
detectevil 11-26-03, 01:42 PM	The dog may have joints, but some of his bones are longer than a human's, some of his joints bend to the other side... so Aikido won't work very well on him...
SoulLord 11-26-03, 06:17 PM	The dog disagrees :) SoulLord
Deladrion Garthin 05-11-04, 03:28 PM	blah blah blah contest :bump:
Legacy-Warrior 05-11-04, 07:41 PM	I do also think that one thing needed in consideration for this class is that the abilities should be very powerful in accordance with the specific restrictions placed upon this class. Take into consideration the benefits of the Vow of Poverty and Vow of Non-Violence feats. The benefits of just the Vow of Non-Violence are substantial when applied correctly. In accordance I do not believe that One-Point is out of scale or that each attack provoking a trip, grapple, or disarm AAO is out of line. One thing I'd wondered about when trying to dream up a balanced version of this class was still progressing the Monk unarmed damage progression but have it be optionally applied as subdual for all throws. Just my thoughts as someone who's never had the opportunity to find a dojo near himself. :( I still study the non-tangables when I can though...
Deladrion Garthin 05-12-04, 01:51 AM	Had to find another picture :( I've been thinking for a long time that this class was a wee bit overpowered and that I should make another version, however unlikely it is that I'll get around to it. I agree that the strict limitations can justify great power. This class is essentially prohibited from killing anyone, ever. And is even prohibited from retaliation without first trying to calm down the aggressors, which takes at least one round just to try it. But I think my One-Point ability is just too powerful a mechanism to represent Aikido. Combined with the Oath of Poverty and the Oath of Nonviolence, this could be quite the... poor, non-violent, spiritually centered power-house. Hmm... doesn't sound so bad when you put it like that :D
rogue_lettuce 05-12-04, 02:36 PM	I don't think it's overpowered, and it could definetely be interesting as a playable choice, but I think it should rely more on readied actions and setting against charges, etc than it does currently. Maybe they double their damage when tripping set against a charge, and if they ready an action to throw when an opponent attacks, introduce a mechanism for throwing that doesn't rely on trips, and allow bonuses to the throw if they do this when their opponent attacks. It would seem more in character for aikido to me.:) I think maybe the prereqs are a bit high, since it seems to me that they don't necessarily have to be GOOD at diplomacy to be an aikido master, they just have to TRY it.:D Also, could they not do with a cleric BAB and poor fort? Seems like it would suit it better. Only makes a small difference. I definetely think it should be poor fort, though. And you should remove Timeless Body, it's totally wrong. Hope that all helped
Shaftiel 05-16-04, 10:25 PM	Why poor BAB? WHY? UGH! It should be average... -Shaftiel
Retinal Haze 05-17-04, 04:06 AM	I think any attack that misses the Akido Master's touch ac should immediatly provoke an attack of oppertunity. If it breaks the touch ac the blow was not doged and was simply deflected. In a grapple an opponent is denied their strength bonus, and an akido master may choose to use their opponents strength score in place of their own. This works for purposes of grappling, tripping, and throwing Also i would say any opponent that charges an Akido master but fails to hit the Akido Master's touch ac may be thrown twice as far as he normally could be. I would think a fantasy akido master would have grown up to be used to the elves dwarves and other humanoid creatures. Any character with the improved grapple feat can choose to grapple any monsterous creature, why not an akido master who specilizes in grappling? Even if he ran across a creature with reverse jointed legs he would be fine in my opinion. He wouldnt be particularly usefull against a beholder but then again neither is a spell caster that is caught in it's main eye.