Alienist Cleric?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alienist Cleric?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ashen_Child
05-13-07, 09:12 AM I just got complete arcane a couple of weeks ago, and was wondering about the alienist prestige class.

According to the book, its 'reccomended classes' include the cleric, but is the loss of hit points and wisdom even worth the benifits (i.e. is it worth dipping or is it still viable as a full progression).

Also, as a cleric of a Lawful Good deity (the cleric is neutral-good) does this mean that she can now summon all the 'fiendish' and 'celestial' monsters since they are now neutral? I'll probably rule this way anyway, but it would be nice to get some support.

(For the background, i'm dm-ing for a group of friends including my gf and she liked the picture. Plus i thought it might give her a kinda cool storyline to fit better in the game (i get the impression she likes summon spells a lot, and there's little better than summoning space monkeys :) )
Rerecros
05-13-07, 05:30 PM The concept of the alienist is great, the execution, not so great, in short the PrC sucks.
You are resticted to summoning Only psudonatural creatures.
And you exchange All your social skills for some extra HP.

Also, as a cleric of a Lawful Good deity (the cleric is neutral-good) does this mean that she can now summon all the 'fiendish' and 'celestial' monsters since they are now neutral?

No. The psudonatural template replaces both feindish and celestial templates, they do not combine. And as a cleric of a LG god, you couldn't take the PrC, I doubt your god would let you summon horrors beyond the edge of existence.
Ashen_Child
05-13-07, 08:59 PM What i meant was, a cleric of an LG god cannot summon dire wolves or monkeys because the feindish/celestial versions would give the spell the Evil and Chaotic types respectively.

Since the spell changes the creatures to pseudonatural, and since this leaves the creatures with a neutral alignment, the cleric would then be able to

As for the backstory, the LG god is using the cleric a a vessle to understand (and potentially control) the strange phenomena which are beyond even its direct control.

I'd point out the irony that (unless i've missed an errata) although they are discribed as hideous beings that are worse than feinds, they mostly appear to be neutral aligned :confused:
Rerecros
05-14-07, 02:15 AM What i meant was, a cleric of an LG god cannot summon dire wolves or monkeys because the feindish/celestial versions would give the spell the Evil and Chaotic types respectively.

Since the spell changes the creatures to pseudonatural, and since this leaves the creatures with a neutral alignment, the cleric would then be able to

The summoning lists are only an example, summoning a CG celestial monkey is just as easy to summon as a LE feindish monkey or a TN psudonatural monkey. Just ask your DM for list additions, all three templates are equally powerful.

As for the backstory, the LG god is using the cleric a a vessle to understand (and potentially control) the strange phenomena which are beyond even its direct control.

I'd point out the irony that (unless i've missed an errata) although they are discribed as hideous beings that are worse than feinds, they mostly appear to be neutral aligned :confused:

Pseudonatural creatures aren't inherently evil, nor do they understand what evil is, neither good, chaos or order for that matter. They exist outside the alignment spectrum, with modivations beyond the comprehension of anyone within the universe. Because of this, they are inherently dangerous and neither LG humans or dieties should go mucking around with these forces, thats evil's job (or at least neutrality).
El_Machinae
05-14-07, 07:11 AM Yes, you can summon monsters by replacing the fiendish template with the pseudonatural template. Easy as pie.

And maybe "recommended for clerics" is because they're recommended thematically, if not statistically.
Ashen_Child
05-14-07, 08:06 AM Thanks for the help sofar :)

As for the equal power, i do think that pseudonatural gives some advantage (truestrike does seem a fair bit more powerful than smite).

The question is, is it worth giving up the 'utility' summoning spells in exchange for it?

The build is a summoner-focused cleric (minimal melee skills since i've wasted a feat on tower sheild proficiency). I don't mind the idea of having no social skills, just whether it's gonna gimp the character's effectiveness over just going strait cleric.
Mercurius
05-14-07, 12:17 PM Thanks for the help sofar :)

As for the equal power, i do think that pseudonatural gives some advantage (truestrike does seem a fair bit more powerful than smite).

The question is, is it worth giving up the 'utility' summoning spells in exchange for it?

The build is a summoner-focused cleric (minimal melee skills since i've wasted a feat on tower sheild proficiency). I don't mind the idea of having no social skills, just whether it's gonna gimp the character's effectiveness over just going strait cleric.

Possibly a little, but it's a really flavorful class that I love. In my campaigns, I let cleric alienists gain the Madness domain at 5th level in place of the pseudonatural familiar, since the whole PrC advances familiars and clerics don't get much for it. Considering the cleric gives up HP and Wisdom, I don't think it's that big of a boon. Of course, instead of a measly +3 HP boost at those particular levels, I also rule Improved Toughness instead...
RobbyPants
05-14-07, 12:30 PM The concept of the alienist is great, the execution, not so great, in short the PrC sucks.
You are resticted to summoning Only psudonatural creatures.
And you exchange All your social skills for some extra HP.
For these reasons, I'd submit that this is (most likely) intended to be a NPC-only PrC. It's not that PCs can't take it, but rather that they shouldn't. It would be a very interesting campaign where an alienist fit in well with the rest of the party... ;)
JulesCARV
05-14-07, 12:35 PM I don't think a lawful good god would want her clerics becoming alienists, for the same reason she wouldn't want her clerics cutting their feet off: they're supposed to serve her as effectively as they can, and taking a prestige class that weakens the cleric's abilities isn't in the interests of the deity.

However, if you give clerics a reasonable degree of autonomy from their god, an NG cleric of an LG god can become an alienist.
IRememberCecil
05-14-07, 03:14 PM For the longest time I've wanted to rewrite the Alienist using the Taint system as it was presented in Heroes of Horror.
Ashen_Child
05-17-07, 09:50 AM Sofar i get the impression that a LG alienist cleric is

a) Slightly underpowered

b) A cool/bizzare/interesting concept

c) Incapable of making a good impression on anything that doesn't have tenticals.

To be honest, the concept is largely an excuse to play an eccentric character, plus the ability to focus on summoning cool, easy to use monsters (including space monkeys :D)

Last question though, specifically about point a- is the alienist going to be 'underpowered' to the point of living in the dwarven-defender's shadow, or is it only underpowered compared to other CoD's ?
psionichamster
05-17-07, 10:47 AM alienist cleric? of a Good deity?

sounds like the Cleric of Pelor/Alienist/Hierophant i planned out...

now, i WAS reading a lot of Lovecraft and Call of Cthulhu books at the time, but it seemed like an ok thing for me.

for 1: Wis is important, yes, but having a cracked out wis is only REALLY key for maxing out your save DC's. if you're summoning, DCs are pretty much irrelevant. focus on party buffs and summons, and you're set.

as far as your social skills: sure you're creepy and scary, and people dont like you. no one said a cleric (even a Good cleric) needs to be a happy fun light and cupcakes kind of guy. dark and brooding works as well for healers as fighters/rogues/paladins/etc.

mechanically, yes you lose a bit, but c'mon...you get to summon mini-cthuhlu to eat your (evil) enemies and bring them to the outer planes.

also: you're probably the Knowledge (planes) sage, as well as the Knowledge(religion) for the group, letting the arcanist focus on something else, if they'd like.

YMMV, of course, but i had a blast playing my wiz/alienist, and look forward to the day i can play the cleric i described.

-the hamster

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashen_Child 05-13-07, 09:12 AM	I just got complete arcane a couple of weeks ago, and was wondering about the alienist prestige class. According to the book, its 'reccomended classes' include the cleric, but is the loss of hit points and wisdom even worth the benifits (i.e. is it worth dipping or is it still viable as a full progression). Also, as a cleric of a Lawful Good deity (the cleric is neutral-good) does this mean that she can now summon all the 'fiendish' and 'celestial' monsters since they are now neutral? I'll probably rule this way anyway, but it would be nice to get some support. (For the background, i'm dm-ing for a group of friends including my gf and she liked the picture. Plus i thought it might give her a kinda cool storyline to fit better in the game (i get the impression she likes summon spells a lot, and there's little better than summoning space monkeys :) )
Rerecros 05-13-07, 05:30 PM	The concept of the alienist is great, the execution, not so great, in short the PrC sucks. You are resticted to summoning Only psudonatural creatures. And you exchange All your social skills for some extra HP. Also, as a cleric of a Lawful Good deity (the cleric is neutral-good) does this mean that she can now summon all the 'fiendish' and 'celestial' monsters since they are now neutral? No. The psudonatural template replaces both feindish and celestial templates, they do not combine. And as a cleric of a LG god, you couldn't take the PrC, I doubt your god would let you summon horrors beyond the edge of existence.
Ashen_Child 05-13-07, 08:59 PM	What i meant was, a cleric of an LG god cannot summon dire wolves or monkeys because the feindish/celestial versions would give the spell the Evil and Chaotic types respectively. Since the spell changes the creatures to pseudonatural, and since this leaves the creatures with a neutral alignment, the cleric would then be able to As for the backstory, the LG god is using the cleric a a vessle to understand (and potentially control) the strange phenomena which are beyond even its direct control. I'd point out the irony that (unless i've missed an errata) although they are discribed as hideous beings that are worse than feinds, they mostly appear to be neutral aligned :confused:
Rerecros 05-14-07, 02:15 AM	What i meant was, a cleric of an LG god cannot summon dire wolves or monkeys because the feindish/celestial versions would give the spell the Evil and Chaotic types respectively. Since the spell changes the creatures to pseudonatural, and since this leaves the creatures with a neutral alignment, the cleric would then be able to The summoning lists are only an example, summoning a CG celestial monkey is just as easy to summon as a LE feindish monkey or a TN psudonatural monkey. Just ask your DM for list additions, all three templates are equally powerful. As for the backstory, the LG god is using the cleric a a vessle to understand (and potentially control) the strange phenomena which are beyond even its direct control. I'd point out the irony that (unless i've missed an errata) although they are discribed as hideous beings that are worse than feinds, they mostly appear to be neutral aligned :confused: Pseudonatural creatures aren't inherently evil, nor do they understand what evil is, neither good, chaos or order for that matter. They exist outside the alignment spectrum, with modivations beyond the comprehension of anyone within the universe. Because of this, they are inherently dangerous and neither LG humans or dieties should go mucking around with these forces, thats evil's job (or at least neutrality).
El_Machinae 05-14-07, 07:11 AM	Yes, you can summon monsters by replacing the fiendish template with the pseudonatural template. Easy as pie. And maybe "recommended for clerics" is because they're recommended thematically, if not statistically.
Ashen_Child 05-14-07, 08:06 AM	Thanks for the help sofar :) As for the equal power, i do think that pseudonatural gives some advantage (truestrike does seem a fair bit more powerful than smite). The question is, is it worth giving up the 'utility' summoning spells in exchange for it? The build is a summoner-focused cleric (minimal melee skills since i've wasted a feat on tower sheild proficiency). I don't mind the idea of having no social skills, just whether it's gonna gimp the character's effectiveness over just going strait cleric.
Mercurius 05-14-07, 12:17 PM	Thanks for the help sofar :) As for the equal power, i do think that pseudonatural gives some advantage (truestrike does seem a fair bit more powerful than smite). The question is, is it worth giving up the 'utility' summoning spells in exchange for it? The build is a summoner-focused cleric (minimal melee skills since i've wasted a feat on tower sheild proficiency). I don't mind the idea of having no social skills, just whether it's gonna gimp the character's effectiveness over just going strait cleric. Possibly a little, but it's a really flavorful class that I love. In my campaigns, I let cleric alienists gain the Madness domain at 5th level in place of the pseudonatural familiar, since the whole PrC advances familiars and clerics don't get much for it. Considering the cleric gives up HP and Wisdom, I don't think it's that big of a boon. Of course, instead of a measly +3 HP boost at those particular levels, I also rule Improved Toughness instead...
RobbyPants 05-14-07, 12:30 PM	The concept of the alienist is great, the execution, not so great, in short the PrC sucks. You are resticted to summoning Only psudonatural creatures. And you exchange All your social skills for some extra HP. For these reasons, I'd submit that this is (most likely) intended to be a NPC-only PrC. It's not that PCs can't take it, but rather that they shouldn't. It would be a very interesting campaign where an alienist fit in well with the rest of the party... ;)
JulesCARV 05-14-07, 12:35 PM	I don't think a lawful good god would want her clerics becoming alienists, for the same reason she wouldn't want her clerics cutting their feet off: they're supposed to serve her as effectively as they can, and taking a prestige class that weakens the cleric's abilities isn't in the interests of the deity. However, if you give clerics a reasonable degree of autonomy from their god, an NG cleric of an LG god can become an alienist.
IRememberCecil 05-14-07, 03:14 PM	For the longest time I've wanted to rewrite the Alienist using the Taint system as it was presented in Heroes of Horror.
Ashen_Child 05-17-07, 09:50 AM	Sofar i get the impression that a LG alienist cleric is a) Slightly underpowered b) A cool/bizzare/interesting concept c) Incapable of making a good impression on anything that doesn't have tenticals. To be honest, the concept is largely an excuse to play an eccentric character, plus the ability to focus on summoning cool, easy to use monsters (including space monkeys :D) Last question though, specifically about point a- is the alienist going to be 'underpowered' to the point of living in the dwarven-defender's shadow, or is it only underpowered compared to other CoD's ?
psionichamster 05-17-07, 10:47 AM	alienist cleric? of a Good deity? sounds like the Cleric of Pelor/Alienist/Hierophant i planned out... now, i WAS reading a lot of Lovecraft and Call of Cthulhu books at the time, but it seemed like an ok thing for me. for 1: Wis is important, yes, but having a cracked out wis is only REALLY key for maxing out your save DC's. if you're summoning, DCs are pretty much irrelevant. focus on party buffs and summons, and you're set. as far as your social skills: sure you're creepy and scary, and people dont like you. no one said a cleric (even a Good cleric) needs to be a happy fun light and cupcakes kind of guy. dark and brooding works as well for healers as fighters/rogues/paladins/etc. mechanically, yes you lose a bit, but c'mon...you get to summon mini-cthuhlu to eat your (evil) enemies and bring them to the outer planes. also: you're probably the Knowledge (planes) sage, as well as the Knowledge(religion) for the group, letting the arcanist focus on something else, if they'd like. YMMV, of course, but i had a blast playing my wiz/alienist, and look forward to the day i can play the cleric i described. -the hamster