Alienist, Goals vs Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alienist, Goals vs Stats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warboss Morgrum
08-28-05, 01:00 PM Hello, I came upon these forums a couple weeks ago, and I've decided to hang around. ;).

Anyway, onto my point. Recently I've been playing a NE Alienist. Before he went into Alienist, he was not exactly stable. After too many hours studying things he shouldn't, and the Alienist's Mad Certainty and Insane Certainty abilities, he is flat out insane. He has decided that a jaunt to the Far Realm to converse with his benefactors (as he sees them) would be most enlightening. All is well and good, but my DM.

He keeps complaining that a Character with good mental stats (Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 11) shouldn't be stupid enough to try something that is probably suicide. I try to explain by saying "You and I know that, but C'nath (the Alienist in question) is certifiable, and thinks he can succeed where others have failed and all that mad wizard junk." I also think the entire Alienist PrC is geared toward eventual insanity, and he's 9th level in it (becomes an outsider next level).

And it's not like I expect to kick open a portal next level (the party is 14th), just to have it as a long term goal (we're going Epic). The other players are fine with it.

The point is, is there a convincing way to state that mental stats don't reflect insanity?
Mystyc
08-28-05, 01:38 PM Perhaps you could post the text of the Mad Certainty and Insane Certianty abilities, for those of us without the proper book? It would help us put an answer in terms your DM could accept.
Rhadamanthus
08-28-05, 08:57 PM Perhaps you could post the text of the Mad Certainty and Insane Certianty abilities, for those of us without the proper book? It would help us put an answer in terms your DM could accept.

Mad and Insane Certainty grant you extra hp, but also give you penalties on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal checks for non-pseudonatural creatures.

I say, if your character wants to utterly destroy the last remnants of anything that he might call a mind and journey to the Far Realm, go RIGHT ahead, buddy! I always pictured the Far Realm as the DM's personal "I can stick that in there" place. Anything he wants to do that's too strange or powerful for D&D, stick it in there. If I was an Alienist, I'd wait until the 10th level of the prestige class before doing anything "crazy" like going to the Far Realm, though.

Maybe when you're Epic you'll actually survive.
runestar
08-28-05, 10:59 PM He keeps complaining that a Character with good mental stats (Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 11) shouldn't be stupid enough to try something that is probably suicide.

Try telling that to Karsus. Just because you are smart doesn't necessarily mean you have a truckload of common sense, which is governed by wis. You may think your idea is infallible, but you might be too myopic to see the potential folly of your ways. Your character might not even see it as suicide. Perhaps he sees it as a way of gaining ultimate power, without giving a damn for the possible repercussions.
Rake
08-29-05, 01:13 AM Insanity is reflected by a low Wisdom score. "Insane" NPCs always have a low Wisdom score, the Madness domain decreases your Wisdom score, and low-Wis characters are described as being "absent minded" in the PHB. If your character has a decent Wisdom score, he's not crazy. At least not in the "lacking-the-ability-to-discern-good-ideas-from-suicidal-ones" kind of low-common-sense crazy way.
Prak, the Mad
08-29-05, 01:55 AM try convincing your DM to institute sanity scores. That will distance sanity from wisdom score. Your starting sanity points are equal to five times current wisdom, so, in your case, 60. then whenever you encounter something truely mindbending, you must make a d% roll, if it is over your current number of sanity points, you lose sanity points, the number depends on the mind breaking experience,

graphic descriptions follow!
|
|
a maggot riddled decomposing corpse can cost 1d4 points on a failed sanity roll, a dire rat crawling out of the corpse, caked in bile and blood can cost 1 point on a failed roll, while a gigantic severed head spurting blood and spewing drool from the mouth, the facial muscles still twitching, and landing with a dull splat in front of you costs 2d10+1 on a failed check, and 2 on a successful check! Seeing an evil deity costs a d% on a failed check and 2d10 on a successful check!
|
|
end graphic descriptions
If your character keeps studying things he shouldn't, he can use the rules for forbidden tomes! 3 weeks of studying a DC 30(kn. arcana) Tome with 1d4+5 spells in it is an initial sanity loss of 1d10, and you lose 3d6 insanity upon completion and gain 3 ranks in Kn. Forbidden Lore! A consumate roleplayer can roleplay your character's quick, horrid descent into madness, without having to worry about their wisdom score!

more about sanity scores, if your character ever loses 30 or more sanity points(half his total) in a single episode, he must make a sanity check, and if he fails, he becomes temporarily insane, actually gaining a clinical condition for a time!

Show these things to your DM, and make it clear to him that your character's goal is a long term one, and that you plan on making his descent into insanity convincing, and logical, I'm sure he'll let you do it.

Sanity is in the Unearthed Arcana book and Call of Cthulhu.
Thelon Fairblade
08-29-05, 01:26 PM The fact that your character wants to go to the Far Realm is in itself proof that he is insane. :-)

Sanity rules are an option for distancing "sanity" from "wisdom", but how insane you are is also displayed by good roleplaying. [Of course, how good you are at role-playing the insanity might say something about your own... ;-)]

In the end, though, stats are only a reflection of the character. You can horridly ugly or stunningly beautiful, and still have a CHA of 10. You can define an 18 STR as "unnaturally strong, with no visible muscles to speak of", or an "INT 28, WIS 12" combination as "obscenely smart, with a mind so concerned with its own meditations that the mundane world is of little concequence"..... althogh "12 WIS" usually means "slightly better than average comon sense / wisdom / will-power", compared to the towering intellect, well, you'd really expect more form him, wouldn't you? I mean, Joe Average locks his keys in the car, everyone says "Aw, man, I remember the time...". Brian the Rocket Scientist locks his keys in the car, the response is usually more like "Man, I thought that guy was smart! Sheesh, he must not have any common sense...." Same action, same "wisdom", but the perception is different...
Duration_10_Rounds
08-29-05, 02:04 PM Your an insanly clever wizard from a world with resurection and liches and an after life.... death is not the end for you...so what if its a suicidal trip the physical realm is but one of many and the trade off of physical life is very probably worth it to your character.

If tomorrow gods and angels and demons started walking the earth telling us if we beleive in them we will live forever on a higher plane perfectly taylored to our ideals(alignment) we would all be romping around wearing holy symbols & taking stupidly life threantening risks on a daily basis. EVERY character in D&D has this assurance of an after life.... your character has that knowledge AND is insane to boot doesnt take much more than that to pull a stpuid stunt like day tripping to the far realm.
Warboss Morgrum
08-29-05, 02:37 PM I'm trying to base his personality on the "fluff" (long time 40k player here:) ) of the Certainty abilities. They read thus:

Mad Certainty: "...an alienist's mad certainty in the power of entities beyond the reach of normal space and time lend her an unnatural fortitude (hp bonus). However, constantly dwelling on such beings is mentally corrosive, and the alienist's mind begins to fracture."

Insane Certainty: "..an alienist's mad certainty crystalizes into a trully chilling mania. ...mental facualties continue to degrade..."

Also, an alienst gains Metamagic feats by "listening to the secret voices beyond time's end."

All in all, I think he has just cause to be a few bricks short by now. I see him as being insanely certain is both his own abilities and the abilities of the entities he tries to contact. I play him as utterly self assured, no matter what monster (or civil authority) tries to kill him, he always has a calm demeanor and a condisending remark. He also has a low oppinion of humanity in general, and has purchased several Grafts and begun taking Aberation Feats from Lords of Madness. He's barely recognisable as human now, and next level he becomes an Outsider.

I'll see if we can just knock down his Wis, as introducing Sanity damage would irritate the other players to no end.
Disme
08-30-05, 05:28 AM Character stats are best looked at as POTENTIAL. How can anyone actually play a wizard with 20+ int? Just because someone has the ability to be a completely sane, amazeingly succesful and undeniably comptent individual (int28 wis12) doesnt mean they are.

I see myself as haveing an int of 14 and wis of 13. I see myself actually useing int 9-12 and wis 5 - 10.

Anywho, try and make an explodeing Kiwi. Do it for me. Please?
Faragon
08-30-05, 05:54 AM Simple answer for the DM: "The line between genius and insanity is thin." Quite often, it's true :)
CaoSlayer
08-30-05, 06:40 AM if he is that a genius, tell him to prepare a clone (with some instant teleports on valuable magic items) or an astral proyection spell before doing the travel.
And a couple of mindblank spells will protect this mind.

with those spells, any wizard can face death without fear because will get back in body and mind.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warboss Morgrum 08-28-05, 01:00 PM	Hello, I came upon these forums a couple weeks ago, and I've decided to hang around. ;). Anyway, onto my point. Recently I've been playing a NE Alienist. Before he went into Alienist, he was not exactly stable. After too many hours studying things he shouldn't, and the Alienist's Mad Certainty and Insane Certainty abilities, he is flat out insane. He has decided that a jaunt to the Far Realm to converse with his benefactors (as he sees them) would be most enlightening. All is well and good, but my DM. He keeps complaining that a Character with good mental stats (Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 11) shouldn't be stupid enough to try something that is probably suicide. I try to explain by saying "You and I know that, but C'nath (the Alienist in question) is certifiable, and thinks he can succeed where others have failed and all that mad wizard junk." I also think the entire Alienist PrC is geared toward eventual insanity, and he's 9th level in it (becomes an outsider next level). And it's not like I expect to kick open a portal next level (the party is 14th), just to have it as a long term goal (we're going Epic). The other players are fine with it. The point is, is there a convincing way to state that mental stats don't reflect insanity?
Mystyc 08-28-05, 01:38 PM	Perhaps you could post the text of the Mad Certainty and Insane Certianty abilities, for those of us without the proper book? It would help us put an answer in terms your DM could accept.
Rhadamanthus 08-28-05, 08:57 PM	Perhaps you could post the text of the Mad Certainty and Insane Certianty abilities, for those of us without the proper book? It would help us put an answer in terms your DM could accept. Mad and Insane Certainty grant you extra hp, but also give you penalties on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Handle Animal checks for non-pseudonatural creatures. I say, if your character wants to utterly destroy the last remnants of anything that he might call a mind and journey to the Far Realm, go RIGHT ahead, buddy! I always pictured the Far Realm as the DM's personal "I can stick that in there" place. Anything he wants to do that's too strange or powerful for D&D, stick it in there. If I was an Alienist, I'd wait until the 10th level of the prestige class before doing anything "crazy" like going to the Far Realm, though. Maybe when you're Epic you'll actually survive.
runestar 08-28-05, 10:59 PM	He keeps complaining that a Character with good mental stats (Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 11) shouldn't be stupid enough to try something that is probably suicide. Try telling that to Karsus. Just because you are smart doesn't necessarily mean you have a truckload of common sense, which is governed by wis. You may think your idea is infallible, but you might be too myopic to see the potential folly of your ways. Your character might not even see it as suicide. Perhaps he sees it as a way of gaining ultimate power, without giving a damn for the possible repercussions.
Rake 08-29-05, 01:13 AM	Insanity is reflected by a low Wisdom score. "Insane" NPCs always have a low Wisdom score, the Madness domain decreases your Wisdom score, and low-Wis characters are described as being "absent minded" in the PHB. If your character has a decent Wisdom score, he's not crazy. At least not in the "lacking-the-ability-to-discern-good-ideas-from-suicidal-ones" kind of low-common-sense crazy way.
Prak, the Mad 08-29-05, 01:55 AM	try convincing your DM to institute sanity scores. That will distance sanity from wisdom score. Your starting sanity points are equal to five times current wisdom, so, in your case, 60. then whenever you encounter something truely mindbending, you must make a d% roll, if it is over your current number of sanity points, you lose sanity points, the number depends on the mind breaking experience, graphic descriptions follow! \| \| a maggot riddled decomposing corpse can cost 1d4 points on a failed sanity roll, a dire rat crawling out of the corpse, caked in bile and blood can cost 1 point on a failed roll, while a gigantic severed head spurting blood and spewing drool from the mouth, the facial muscles still twitching, and landing with a dull splat in front of you costs 2d10+1 on a failed check, and 2 on a successful check! Seeing an evil deity costs a d% on a failed check and 2d10 on a successful check! \| \| end graphic descriptions If your character keeps studying things he shouldn't, he can use the rules for forbidden tomes! 3 weeks of studying a DC 30(kn. arcana) Tome with 1d4+5 spells in it is an initial sanity loss of 1d10, and you lose 3d6 insanity upon completion and gain 3 ranks in Kn. Forbidden Lore! A consumate roleplayer can roleplay your character's quick, horrid descent into madness, without having to worry about their wisdom score! more about sanity scores, if your character ever loses 30 or more sanity points(half his total) in a single episode, he must make a sanity check, and if he fails, he becomes temporarily insane, actually gaining a clinical condition for a time! Show these things to your DM, and make it clear to him that your character's goal is a long term one, and that you plan on making his descent into insanity convincing, and logical, I'm sure he'll let you do it. Sanity is in the Unearthed Arcana book and Call of Cthulhu.
Thelon Fairblade 08-29-05, 01:26 PM	The fact that your character wants to go to the Far Realm is in itself proof that he is insane. :-) Sanity rules are an option for distancing "sanity" from "wisdom", but how insane you are is also displayed by good roleplaying. [Of course, how good you are at role-playing the insanity might say something about your own... ;-)] In the end, though, stats are only a reflection of the character. You can horridly ugly or stunningly beautiful, and still have a CHA of 10. You can define an 18 STR as "unnaturally strong, with no visible muscles to speak of", or an "INT 28, WIS 12" combination as "obscenely smart, with a mind so concerned with its own meditations that the mundane world is of little concequence"..... althogh "12 WIS" usually means "slightly better than average comon sense / wisdom / will-power", compared to the towering intellect, well, you'd really expect more form him, wouldn't you? I mean, Joe Average locks his keys in the car, everyone says "Aw, man, I remember the time...". Brian the Rocket Scientist locks his keys in the car, the response is usually more like "Man, I thought that guy was smart! Sheesh, he must not have any common sense...." Same action, same "wisdom", but the perception is different...
Duration_10_Rounds 08-29-05, 02:04 PM	Your an insanly clever wizard from a world with resurection and liches and an after life.... death is not the end for you...so what if its a suicidal trip the physical realm is but one of many and the trade off of physical life is very probably worth it to your character. If tomorrow gods and angels and demons started walking the earth telling us if we beleive in them we will live forever on a higher plane perfectly taylored to our ideals(alignment) we would all be romping around wearing holy symbols & taking stupidly life threantening risks on a daily basis. EVERY character in D&D has this assurance of an after life.... your character has that knowledge AND is insane to boot doesnt take much more than that to pull a stpuid stunt like day tripping to the far realm.
Warboss Morgrum 08-29-05, 02:37 PM	I'm trying to base his personality on the "fluff" (long time 40k player here:) ) of the Certainty abilities. They read thus: Mad Certainty: "...an alienist's mad certainty in the power of entities beyond the reach of normal space and time lend her an unnatural fortitude (hp bonus). However, constantly dwelling on such beings is mentally corrosive, and the alienist's mind begins to fracture." Insane Certainty: "..an alienist's mad certainty crystalizes into a trully chilling mania. ...mental facualties continue to degrade..." Also, an alienst gains Metamagic feats by "listening to the secret voices beyond time's end." All in all, I think he has just cause to be a few bricks short by now. I see him as being insanely certain is both his own abilities and the abilities of the entities he tries to contact. I play him as utterly self assured, no matter what monster (or civil authority) tries to kill him, he always has a calm demeanor and a condisending remark. He also has a low oppinion of humanity in general, and has purchased several Grafts and begun taking Aberation Feats from Lords of Madness. He's barely recognisable as human now, and next level he becomes an Outsider. I'll see if we can just knock down his Wis, as introducing Sanity damage would irritate the other players to no end.
Disme 08-30-05, 05:28 AM	Character stats are best looked at as POTENTIAL. How can anyone actually play a wizard with 20+ int? Just because someone has the ability to be a completely sane, amazeingly succesful and undeniably comptent individual (int28 wis12) doesnt mean they are. I see myself as haveing an int of 14 and wis of 13. I see myself actually useing int 9-12 and wis 5 - 10. Anywho, try and make an explodeing Kiwi. Do it for me. Please?
Faragon 08-30-05, 05:54 AM	Simple answer for the DM: "The line between genius and insanity is thin." Quite often, it's true :)
CaoSlayer 08-30-05, 06:40 AM	if he is that a genius, tell him to prepare a clone (with some instant teleports on valuable magic items) or an astral proyection spell before doing the travel. And a couple of mindblank spells will protect this mind. with those spells, any wizard can face death without fear because will get back in body and mind.