Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krusk 11-08-07, 06:14 PM	I have been having a real desire to work on a base class that fits my thoughts on what a necromancer should be. to give a description of that ill post a few concepts. impartial to undead Arcane magic Drain life from your enemies -possibly to make yourself stronger power over life and death with a single spell -save or die spells Physically frail Almost a glass cannon in that the class is built to be able to destroy the most powerful of foes, but in exchange can be defeated in moments if they mess up even once. No armor or weapons terrifying to behold Probably this class should have a spellbook or similar system, but i also like the idea they automatically know their spell list. Which actually limits their spells known a lot. What should the book be for? I like the lich phylactery but im know i dont want it to be undead. I do want the class to become ageless at one point. possibly at the cost of sanity. - we dont use a sanity system so how would this best be implimented non-good Im curious if anyone has any mechanical ideas for me. Also, When working on names, i am pretty terrible coming up with them, the only ones i can think of have been stolen and used by wizards. "true necromancer" "Dread Necromancer" "Necromancer" ect. I am probably going to start jotting down ideas in the next few days, but i thought i would see if anyone has any suggestions. Also i would like this class to be playable 1-20 and to have an easy/logical extension into epic levels. Suggestions for homemade/real classes to look at are welcome. *Oh yeah! if anyone wants to draw a picture for me, or knows of a good free one/place to look. I would love it. A picture really helps others get the concept.
dman11235 11-08-07, 06:25 PM	You know, you could just play a wizard: necromancer and choose your spells well. Or play a dread necromancer, but that turns into a lich. The only thing missing from what you want from the wizard: timeless body. Though there may be a spell that lets you get that. I know that there's an epic feat that extends you life span. There's also probably a PrC or two that focus on necromancy and grant that abiliy. Oh, and I suggest you do Master Specialist: necromancer. It's in CMage. I do not believe that there is a way to live forever without changing type like becoming undead. If you just want timeless body, look for a way to get it. Or be an [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans]Elan. (]here[/url) They have no max age.
Krusk 11-08-07, 06:46 PM	You know, you could just play a wizard: necromancer and choose your spells well. Or play a dread necromancer, but that turns into a lich. The only thing missing from what you want from the wizard: timeless body. Though there may be a spell that lets you get that. I know that there's an epic feat that extends you life span. There's also probably a PrC or two that focus on necromancy and grant that abiliy. i thought of doing both of those. Reasons why i didnt. The wizard -class itself is a little boring. I consider it the most powerful class in the game bar none. But its boring. You can only specialize and ban school so much. You then don't get any interesting class features and prestige class out ASAP into something like master specialist which really should replace base wizard levels 4-14. Then the necromancy spells for this class are really really broad, as this class is really really broad. Essentially the straight wizard is too bland. The dread necromancer -this class is essentially a melee warrior with minor buffing/healing itself ability. it is also increadibly related to the undead. I have actually played two of this class, the first time it fit my concept to the T, but the second it was real lacking. The first time i was attempting to play someone who was an undead warlord -essentially- and the second i was attempting to play the above. It just didn't work. Also for reference. I am not going to be playing this class, im probably going to add it to my list of options i give to players. I keep a compilated list of extras, that are almost house rules except that you can play the entire campaign fine without opening them. It is essentially feats, classes, and items that are home brewed from the boards -generally with permission-, third party material, and myself. it also includes additional bonus given to weaker classes, such as retraining abilities to fighters at the cost of nothing. Now if i were to have a DM say i could play this, that would be another matter. I also may use it as a villian/BBEG in campaigns, as it has some huge tendancies to evil alignment. lol, ninja edited like mad.
dman11235 11-08-07, 08:33 PM	The wizard being that bland just means you can flavor the way you want. And besides, they get bonus feats, unlike the sorcerer. And that's what PrCs are for. I took the liberty to look through Crystal Keep for good necromancy PrCs. They appear to be not many, but some might be Archmage (good for ANY arcane caster), Red Wizard, and Master Specialist. Oh, and Blood Magus might work. What exactly are you looking for?
Krusk 11-09-07, 12:36 AM	The wizard being that bland just means you can flavor the way you want. And besides, they get bonus feats, unlike the sorcerer. And that's what PrCs are for. I took the liberty to look through Crystal Keep for good necromancy PrCs. They appear to be not many, but some might be Archmage (good for ANY arcane caster), Red Wizard, and Master Specialist. Oh, and Blood Magus might work. What exactly are you looking for? Exactly what i am looking for are ideas to incorperate into a custom 1-20 class. I would rather not prestige this class, as thats sort of a cop out. A class should be fun to play 1-20 not from 1-5 then prestige out ASAP. Prestige classes -in my mind- are for increadibly niche concepts that can't fill up a base class. Again, i am not looking for a class for my current or future character to play, i am looking for ideas for a custom home made class.
dman11235 11-09-07, 12:48 AM	I understand that last part. The problem is: this is a niche thing. I have shown ways to get it with PrCs, and all you have to do is flavor it the way you want to. Now what I'm asking, is what do you want to do.
propheticplatypus 11-09-07, 11:47 AM	Every single item in the list of things you want for your class is very easy to do with Wizard. Frankly, I think one of the problems lately in D&D and the advent of 8 gabillion PRCs is that people get lazy with normal classes. Literally, EVERYTHING you want goes with wizard. Don't forget that you can make up new spells for your necromancer specialty wizard. For instance, I always thought there should be a drain life type spell. Quick sketch of a spell you could create. Syphon Soul 4th level necromancy spell short range Ranged touch attack to hit Fortitude half damage duration: concentration, max 1/2 your level You syphon your enemies life force into yourself, dealing d6/level (max 10d6) damage. Maintaining this spell requires a standard action per round, and each round your foe gets a new save for 1/2 damage, and you do the additional d6/level damage. I'm trying to compare this in power to a fireball/ligthning bolt type spell. It gains power in that you gain life, and it can act over multiple rounds, but it loses power in that it can only damage 1 enemy and requires a standard action per round. This is right around 3rd or 4th level in power. Just use some creativity: player created spells (and even feats!) and the wizard class could do this very well.
Krusk 11-09-07, 12:45 PM	Im aware that can be done using standard wizard. i would rather not. Simply for fun. simply because i was bored/curious how it would turn out. not because i dont think it cant be done with standard wizard. just because i feel like it. I know it can be done with Prc class but it is more interesting to see a character that is straight 1-20 and still worth playing. Essentially i was seeing if anyone had any ideas. Yes i KNOW it can be done with a standard wizard, but thats not what im lookign to do. Its sort of how i can get to NY by car, but hey i can also take a plane. There is more than 1 way to do things.
Dog_O_War 11-09-07, 01:25 PM	I would like you to keep in mind that I am just trying to expand on the base ideas listed; I am putting forth a more refined concept. impartial to undead I'm not sure what you mean for this. Arcane magic Easy enough; this class casts arcane magic. Since arcane magic has always been linked to int and charisma, choose one of these stats to govern spell-casting. My personal choice would be int. Drain life from your enemies -possibly to make yourself stronger Maybe gets the spell Death Knell as a spell-like ability? power over life and death with a single spell -save or die spells Uses a mixed version of mostly arcane spells, but with some necromancy ones drawn from the clerical list. Physically frail Almost a glass cannon in that the class is built to be able to destroy the most powerful of foes, but in exchange can be defeated in moments if they mess up even once. 1d4 hit dice, full spell progression; maybe the wizards' progression, but without the option of specialization. No armor or weapons Gotta have some weapon proficiencies; maybe dagger, quarterstaff, club, and dart? terrifying to behold Maybe has an aura of fear, like the paladin's aura of courage - only imparts a penalty to saves versus fear; like -1 per 5 levels (within 30ft). Maybe can cast a blanket version of cause fear. Probably this class should have a spellbook or similar system, but i also like the idea they automatically know their spell list. Which actually limits their spells known a lot. What should the book be for? Maybe they have one spell per level (plus int modifier) that they can memorize without aid of a book (like spell mastery). They'd still need a book, but have a select list then they will always have access to. I like the lich phylactery but im know i dont want it to be undead. I do want the class to become ageless at one point. possibly at the cost of sanity. I'm going to elaborate on this one in the sanity question. - we dont use a sanity system so how would this best be implimented maybe use the heroes of horror taint rules (only using depravity) as to represent sanity. such a character might be immune to complete lose of sanity (ie: not becoming an NPC once the depravity score reaches max). Also, perhaps a version of timeless body thrown in, obtained through "madness" (kinda like an alienist). Character finds a way to peer into the void, gaining forbidden knowledge which will keep him alive indefinately - and crazy. non-good class requirement. Also, When working on names, i am pretty terrible coming up with them, the only ones i can think of have been stolen and used by wizards. "true necromancer" "Dread Necromancer" "Necromancer" ect. I suck at names too. The best I could conjuer up was "Coffinator"
Krusk 11-09-07, 03:23 PM	I would like you to keep in mind that I am just trying to expand on the base ideas listed; I am putting forth a more refined concept. I'm not sure what you mean for this. Easy enough; this class casts arcane magic. Since arcane magic has always been linked to int and charisma, choose one of these stats to govern spell-casting. My personal choice would be int. Maybe gets the spell Death Knell as a spell-like ability? Uses a mixed version of mostly arcane spells, but with some necromancy ones drawn from the clerical list. 1d4 hit dice, full spell progression; maybe the wizards' progression, but without the option of specialization. Gotta have some weapon proficiencies; maybe dagger, quarterstaff, club, and dart? Maybe has an aura of fear, like the paladin's aura of courage - only imparts a penalty to saves versus fear; like -1 per 5 levels (within 30ft). Maybe can cast a blanket version of cause fear. Maybe they have one spell per level (plus int modifier) that they can memorize without aid of a book (like spell mastery). They'd still need a book, but have a select list then they will always have access to. I'm going to elaborate on this one in the sanity question. maybe use the heroes of horror taint rules (only using depravity) as to represent sanity. such a character might be immune to complete lose of sanity (ie: not becoming an NPC once the depravity score reaches max). Also, perhaps a version of timeless body thrown in, obtained through "madness" (kinda like an alienist). Character finds a way to peer into the void, gaining forbidden knowledge which will keep him alive indefinately - and crazy. class requirement. I suck at names too. The best I could conjuer up was "Coffinator" There is hope... thanks 1- by impartial to undead, i would like the class to not have any special connection to the undead. Thought i should specify that because most necromancy classes are strongly tied to it. 2-I agree with int 3-a modified death knell might work, id rather it be useful for people over -1 hp. 4-thats what i was thinking. I was also thinking of possibly giving the class access to raise dead and the advanced versions. I figure someone who knows how to kill in a word would know how to do the opposite. Maybe at a higher class level? 5-agreed on the d4 and wizards spells. 6-yeah, club dagger quarterstaff works. 7-aura of feer definatly fits. 8-free spell mastery is definatly a good way to do this. I was debating on giving something like this but unsure how to do it. Instead of 1 per point of int, what do you think of int mod per spell level. then giving them an extra spell per day that is always one of these spells. or perhapse a scaling progression? 9-i like your sanity idea, and am going to have to reread the HoH one. As for agelessness, an idea came to me today. How about adding +1/5 max years onto the end of the creatures lifespan periodically throughout the class. This wont give much benefit to PCs, but still gets the idea across. I would have both penalties and bonuses accumulate as normal, maybe even expanding if they make it past their maximum age limit. 10 Coffinater. Sweet. If by the time i post a rough draft i dont have anything better im gonna use it. It can always be changed. --also sorry if i was harsh in previous posts, i hate the internet as a form of debate, and message boards are the worst for trying to explain things. Got all worked up combined with just waking up.
Dog_O_War 11-09-07, 04:31 PM	Okay, I have a more clear idea of your concept. Maybe, instead of a death Knell spell-like ability, maybe they have a special ability that drains 1 hit point per spell level per target; maybe they can modify all spells they have similar to a meta-magic feat; this is just an example: Syphoning magic(SU): When a [coffinator] reaches 3rd level, he gains the ability to drain a bit of the target's very essence away with every spell. Any targeted spell he can cast as a standard action may instead be cast as a syphoning spell, which takes a full-round action. This spell drains away 1 hit point per spell level and heals the [coffinator] an equal amount of damage. This function of the ability only works if the spell works; If subject to spell resistance, etc... and fails, then the syphoning fails. This ability may not be used on constructs, elementals, or oozes. This ability increases to 2 hit points per spell level at 12th. (and again at 21st to 3 hit points per spell level) You may wish to change this to levels 3,9, and 15. Maybe add the cures and inflicts to this classes' spell list; completely barring most of the other schools (do not include divination amoungst the barred schools). As for increasing age - a story (sort of) A friend of mine has this really annoying habit of changing all the rules for the game. One such change was for wizards and sorcerers. Every time they cast a spell, they added a year to their maximum age. His reasoning was "wizards like Gandalf (he is a huge LotR fan; his campaign world was based off of many of the ideas and such of middle-earth) have been around for like 1000 years and have incredible knowledge and power. To sort of emulate this, every time a wizard or sorcerer casts a spell, their maximum age goes up by 1 year" I thought this crazy at the time, but the more I examined it, the less crazy it became. Such characters would still get aging penalties and bonuses, it's jus that their maximum age would increase. I've since poised a different solution for you; for every new spell level available to be cast, multiply their maximum age by 1.1 (compounded; level 3 would turn a human who would die at 100 to 110; at level 5 it would become 121, etc). you ofcourse can use whatever number you see fit* *quick note to those that think it broken; when was the last time you ever had a character die of old age, or even reach middle age by 10th level?
dman11235 11-09-07, 04:37 PM	If you go through with this, I'd make the casting ability charisma. It makes a little more sense given the insanity thing, and separates it from the wizard. Also, I'd make it a spontaneous caster, with some cleric spells thrown in, because divine is where it's at for necromancy. It's still arcane casting, but with some of the cleric spells on the spell list. It's going to be hard to make this class in such a way that it's unique, because a lot of the things that you mentioned wizards can do. But I'm willing to work on it. Over this weekend I will come up with a modified spell lost, or maybe a class outline. I probably won't get done with both, but I might. And I may come up with some new spells. I'd suggest not using variant rules for this, because then it will see more play. As for the aura of fear, give the guy frightful presence and leave it at that. I'm thinking level 10 for it. And Dog_O_War: I like fluff things. They are hardly ever broken. The last time I ever had a character age even a year was, well, never.
Ecureuil_Diabolique 11-09-07, 04:42 PM	I would probably go with something like a sorcerer's spellcasting with limited spells known related to necromancy and some cool abilities. Personally I'd like maybe invocations where they're usable at will, but either way is fine. As for a name I'm not sure how well it'll work but I thought "Death Weaver" sounded pretty cool. They do control death, right? If anything else comes to mind I'll be sure to tell you, otherwise I can't wait to see how the class comes out. I might end up offering some assistance, but I'm trying to think up how to make a cool truenamer-ish class so I'm not sure if I'll be able to think up anything innovative or even that interesting.
Krusk 11-09-07, 04:42 PM	im also working out a rough draft, tonight/this weekend. or at least combing over existing books looking for ideas. Ill post what ive come up with. Im also doing a spell list. I like syphoning magic.
Krusk 11-10-07, 08:50 PM	Rough Draft. I am looking mostly for balancing the spell list. Very rough draft. I would give it its own thread but about 15 new necromancer threads just popped up last night. The [Coffinator] About the Class- A [Coffinator] rarely goes by that name. Most prefer student of life and death, as they spend most of their time studying old tomes and volumes attempting to figure out the next secret. A [Coffinator] has discovered some of the fundamental secrets of life itself. Unfortunately for those who oppose him, he has also found out the secrets of death. He may have knowledge on how to extend his own life by a thousand years, but oppose him and yours will be much shorter. Generally scoffing at others who pursue this art through similar means the master does not understand why those who seek eternal life so often resort to becoming undead. Especially those who resort to lichdom. They come so close to the answer, but then right as they are about to discover the truth they fall short and become a lich. A [Coffinator] is a great choice if you want to play the wizened old wizard type character who has spent long hard years expanding his life, but you do not want to play someone with an undue fascination with the undead. You may adventure with those hundreds of years younger, but you always have some secret reason. Making a [Coffinator]- A low level student of life and death plays like a standard arcane caster. Hit hard once or twice, and then slink about trying not to be noticed. If your enemies do notice, you are not helpless. When they enclose you can unleash a powerful blast of pure fear, making them quickly regret their choice in targets. Abilities- Intelligence is by far the most important ability, due to it determining the power of the spells. Charisma is second, as many of the class abilities function off of it. As always a good constitution and dexterity score are important if the character wishes to survive in the adventuring world. Races- Humans and are by far the most common race to delve into the secrets of the [Coffinator], with their short lifespans. Many orcs attempt to partake in this class even with their intelligence penalties. The longer lived races have been known to take this class, and the ones who do live for an impressive amount of time. Even by their standards. Alignment-[Coffinator] are never good aligned. Their spell lists and choice of profession simply does not allow for it. While most [Coffinator] are lawful aligned, there a few have been known to be chaotic. This is probably due to the large amount of time spent studying large tomes required to advance in the class. Starting gold- As Wizard Starting age- As Wizard +2d6 Hit Die D4 Level Base Attack Bonus Fortitude Reflex Will Class Features 1 0 0 0 2 Extended Life Fear (Spell like ability) Spells 2 1 0 0 3 3 1 1 1 3 Negative Energy Mastery 4 2 1 1 4 Positive Energy Mastery Dedication has its tole 5 2 1 1 4 Extended Life 6 3 2 2 5 Advanced Learning Unnatural Gaze 7 3 2 2 5 8 4 2 2 6 Dedication has its tole 9 5 3 3 6 10 5 3 3 7 Extended Life 11 5 3 3 7 Advanced Learning 12 +6/+1 4 4 8 Negative Energy Mastery Dedication has its tole 13 +6/+1 4 4 8 Positive Energy Mastery 14 +7/+2 4 4 9 15 +7/+2 5 5 9 Extended Life 16 +8/+3 5 5 10 Dedication has its tole 17 +8/+3 5 5 10 Advanced Learning 18 +9/+4 6 6 11 Negative Energy Mastery 19 +9/+4 6 6 11 Positive Energy Mastery 20 +10/+5 6 6 12 Extended life (Mastered) Dedication has its tole Class Skills- (2+int Modifier per level, x4 at first level): Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge (all individually), Profession , Spellcraft Weapons and Armor Proficiency [Coffinator]'s are proficient with the dagger, club and quarterstaff and with no armor or shields. In addition they suffer arcane spell failure from both shields and armor. Extended Life A [Coffinator] has found the secret of life itself. He adds 1/5 of his maximum age onto the end of his lifespan. He still gains penalties and benefits as normal for aging except for as noted in bold below. Level 20- He has discovered the true secret of life and death and has found a way to hold off death as long as he wishes. As long as the [Coffinator] wishes he may continue living, past even his extended life. If the [Coffinator] so chooses, he may choose to end this life by completing a short ritual taking twenty minutes and requiring no materials. Not only do bonuses still cumulate but penalties do as well at a rate of 1 strength dexterity and constitution per century past his normal extended limit. Bonus's build at a rate of 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma per century past your limit. Fear Aura of Dispair(su): a [coffinator]exudes an unatural aura of sadness and dread. all those within 30 feet of the [coffinator] take a -1 penalty to all fear spells and effects while within the area of effect. Greater aura of dispair(su): at tenth level the [coffinator] replaces his aura of dispair with a greater aura of dispair, which causes all those within a 30 foot range to take a -1 penalty to all attack rolls and skill checks, as well as a -1 penalty to saves versus fear. Aura of Bleak future(su): At 20th level the [coffinator] replaces his greater aura of dispair with one of dark forboding. All those within 30 feet of the [coffinator] take a -1 penalty to all saves versus necromancy spells and effects, as well as fear effects (I don't remember if fear is exclusive to necromancy) and all attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. Unnatural Gaze(su): At 6th level, a [coffinator] gains the ability to simply look apon a creature, forcing it to flee. At will as a standard action a [coffinator] may produce a fear effect similar to a cause fear spell (save DC= 10+ 1/2level+ CHA modifier). Due to the [coffinator]'s strong ties to both life and death, this ability may affect even the undead who would normally be immune to this ability (think 'casting chill touch' on them). Negative Energy Mastery work in progress Level 12- work in progress Level 18- work in progress Positive Energy Mastery work in progress Level 13- work in progress Level 19- work in progress Dedication has its tole The [Coffinator] has learned many secrets. Unfortunately not all of these secrets are intended to be known. The [Coffinator] has developed some form of taint. They must roll on the corresponding taint table and accept the result. Roll 1d6, on evens use physical on odds use mental. Descriptions can be found in Heroes of Horror under the taint ability. Level 4 Mild Level 8 Mild Level 12 Moderate Level 16 Moderate Level 20 Severe -Note- while the [coffinator] gains symtoms of taint, he does not actually have a taint score, unless gained through a different means. That said, he may have multiple symptoms from a given category. Advanced learning Through the immense ammount of time researching the [Coffinator] has discovered the secrets to a few spells outside of his normal list of spells. He may add one spell of any level that he can cast from the necromancy school to his spellbook. Spells The [Coffinator] casts arcane spells based off Int. A [Coffinator] casts his spells by preparing them ahead of time from a spellbook. He can cast them a number of times per day as can be found on the wizard spells per day chart. The [Coffinator], unlike a wizard chooses his spells from a very specialized list. The list can be found below. The [Coffinator] may spontaneously cast any inflict or cure spell that is in his spellbook by switching it with any prepared spell of the same level. Spell list 0 - Arcane Mark- PHB 1 -BackBiter- SC -Detect Magic-PHB -Bane- PHB -Ghost Sound-PHB -Bestow wound- HoH -Light-PHB -Cause Fear-PHB -Open Close-PHB -Identify-PHB -Prestigiditation-PHB -Ray of enfeeblement-PHB -Touch of fatigue-PHB -Spirit worm-sc 2 -Blindness/deafness-PHB 3 -Bestow Curse-PHB -Cure light wounds-PHB -Cure Moderate wounds-PHB -Death knell-PHB -Escalating enfeeblement- Complete MAge -Healing Sting- SC -Ghoul Gesture- SC -Inflict light wounds-PHB -Inflict moderate wounds- PHB -Kelgore's Grave Mist- PHB2 -Mind poison-SC -Remove fear-PHB -Remove blindness/deafness-PHB -Scare-PHB -Remove paralysis-PHB -Spectral hand- PHB -Restoration, lesser-PHB -Vampiric Touch-PHB -skull watch-SC -Deathward-PHB -Speak with dead-PHB -Lifeward-SC 4 -Burning Blood-SC 5 -Channeled lifetheft- Complete Mage -Consumptive Field- SC -Contact other plane-PHB -Cure Serious wounds- PHB -Cure Critical wounds-PHB -Detect SCrying-PHB -Death Ward-PHB - Doom Scarabs- PHB2 -Greymantle- SC -Enervation-PHB -Inflict Critical wounds-PHB -Fear-PHB -Magic Jar-PHB -Finger of Agony- Complete Mage -Nightmare-PHB -Inflict serious wounds-PHB -Restoration-PHB -Phantasmal killer-PHB -Slay living-PHB -Remove Curse-PHB -Touch of years- Complete Mage -Symbol of pain-PHB -Wither Limb- SC -Waves of Fatigue-PHB -Wrack- SC 6 -Aura of Terror- SC 7 -Avasculate- SC - Barghest's Feast-SC -Bestow Curse Greater- SC -Circle of Death- PHB -Blood to water- SC -Flesh Shiver- SC -Consumptive field greater- SC -Harm-PHB -Destruction- PHB -Heal-PHB -Evil Glare- SC -Modify Memory-PHB -Finger of Death-PHB -Plane Shift-PHB -Harm, greater- HoH -Pox- HoH -Necrotic curse- Complete Mage -Raise dead-PHB -Plague- PHB2 -Soul Link- HoH -Power Word blind-PHB -Pulse of Hate- PHB2 -Symbol of Fear-PHB -Retributive Enervation-Complete Mage -Pact of Return-HoH -Symbol of weakness-PHB -Waves of Exhaustion-PHB 8 -Avascular Mass- SC 9 -Blackfire- SC -Clone-PHB -Astral Projection- PHB -Death Pact- SC -Detonate-PHB2 -Flensing- SC -Energy Drain-PHB -Heart of Stone- SC -Enervating breath-SC -Heat Drain- SC -Harm Greater- HoH -Power word stun-PHB -Restoration greater-PHB -Imprison Soul- HoH -Resurrection-PHB -Programmed Amnesia- SC Symbol of insanity-PHB -Power word Kill-PHB -Symbol of Death-PHB -Soul bind-PHB -Temporal Stasis-PHB -Time Stop-PHB -Trap the Soul-PHB -True Resurrection-PHB -Wail of the Banshee-PH
dman11235 11-11-07, 03:39 AM	I still say it should be charisma and spontaneous casting, knowing every spell on your list. Also, get rid of Abyssal Army, Hellish Horde, Abyssal Rift, Programmed Amnesia, Summon Babau Demon, Summon Bearded Devil, Arcane Mark, and add in Cure Minor Wounds, as well as the rest of the cure spells, minus the mass ones. Include a Spells per Day table. With my suggestion, it would be as a sorcerer of your level, without it would be as a wizard. I'd get rid of Fear and add in Frightful Pressence at level 9. Negative Energy Mastery needs to be reworded. As it is now, it is either your charisma modifier ever, or per damaging affect, the first is obviously wrong, and the second is really overpowered. Make it similar to the positive energy one, in that it's per day reduction. Same goes for the third installment. Anyway, my main suggestion is the switch to charisma, because this class screams charisma based. Really badly. And if you do that, just switch the roles of charisma and intelligence. Because mastery implies an understanding, and that's int, not cha. The frightful presence should stay charisma based. And it should be frightful presence, not this fear ability.
Grizzled Gryphon 11-11-07, 04:53 AM	Here is an odd name for this class. Call them Circle Masters. Most mythos seem to have life and death as a circle. Oh, even better, Circle Breakers. There manipulation of life and death disrupts the natural flow of the circle. Or not. Just an idea.
Cartigan 11-11-07, 08:07 AM	I still say your original description sounds like a Necromantic Wizard. Races- Humans and are by far the most common race to delve into the secrets of life and death, with their short lifespans. Many orcs attempt to partake in this class even with their intelligence penalties. The longer lived races have been known to take this class, and the ones who do live for an impressive amount of time. Even by their standards. Given this is flavor text, it is "IC" - don't mention class penalties or bonuses. Extended Life A Master of life and death has found the secret of life itself. He adds 1/5 of his maximum age onto the end of his lifespan. I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying he lives 20% longer than he would without this class? Well considering maximum age never comes up until you are about to die of old age, it would be a while before this came up, so better write it down. Level 20- He has discovered the true secret of life and death and has found a way to hold off death as long as he wishes. As long as the master of life and death wishes he may continue living, past even his extended life. If the Master of life and death so chooses, he may choose to end this life by completing a short ritual taking twenty minutes and requiring no materials. Not only do bonuses still cumulate but penalties do as well at a rate of 1 strength dexterity and constitution per century past his normal extended limit. Bonus's build at a rate of 1 point of intelligence, wisdom, and charisma per century past your limit. Why would he gain Charisma? Oh well, sudden immortality for no good reason is nonsense anyway. Negative Energy Mastery The master of life and death has realized the first of the secrets in negative energy. He now heals through negative energy as though undead. He is still healed through the use of positive energy as normal Level 12- The master has found the second secret of negative energy and may now ignore a number of points of ability damage or drain equal to his Cha modifier. Level 18- The master has found the third secret of negative energy and may ignore a number of negative levels equal to his Cha modifier. Positive Energy Mastery A master has discovered how to manipulate positive energy at an even better rate than a normal person. For every 2 points healed from positive energy, he heals an additional point. Level 13- A master has discovered the second secret to positive energy and for every spell cast that heals ability damage or drain the master of life and death heals an additional point a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier. Level 19- The master has discovered the last secret to life, he can now remove a number of negative levels by touch equal to his Cha modifier per day. Lolwhut? He masters positive and negative energy? Hurray, it's a Neutral Cleric of Undead Raising!
Krusk 11-11-07, 02:17 PM	lolwhut its a rough draft of basic ideas. lolowaowl1!@#@1... cartigan- i dont mentioni dont mention numerical penalties for orcs, i simply say they are less intelligent than other folks. Which is common knowledge. you are exactly correct in what extended life does. You are also correct that it will almost never see play. Thats ok. as for random cha increases for extended life, take that up with the PHB, i reprinted it and expanded it. Grizzled griphon- interesting name, im gonna make a list and compare all the names that look ok. dman- Im taking out those spells, except programmed amnesia because i think that sort of fits. all the cure spells aside from minor and the mass ones are already in the spell list. spells per day table, use wizard i didnt include it because of space. Im thinking i might just take the fear thing out all together. It dosn't really fit with the class anymore, im not sure. Leave it in or take it out? Im still thinking someone who spends all day in tomes reading and studying is a int based, over cha. But perhapse they need a strong force of personality to force their will upon the the reaper sort of thing. Keep him away because of how Cha you are? In this i could then make it a dual casting class? possibly int for spell save DC and cha for bonus spells?
dman11235 11-11-07, 03:48 PM	will get you [sblock]this. The reason I suggested the spontaneous casting and charisma based was that I viewed something like this being a spontaneous necromancy master, kind of like in Diablo II (I've never played it myself, but I've watched my roomate). Also, with this extremely limited spell list it just makes sense to give it spontaneous casting and the sorcerer spells per day. And all you have to do is reflavor the spells a bit, and a little somewhere else to get the correct flavor for this. And the studying tomes and stuff is what the other class features are. Also, believe it or not, a lot of the dealings with life and death are charisma things, much like outsiders. I do like the positive and negative energy mastery ideas, but they need to change to something else. Also, remove the acruing of penalties and bonuses after you become immortal. I mean, Elans are immortal.
JulesCARV 11-11-07, 05:47 PM	Maybe... erm... thanatogenist?
Ultima0071 11-11-07, 05:57 PM	Found some pictures you might like ;) : (So many pics, handle with care :) ) http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/f/2006/339/e/2/Tehres_the_Necromancer_by_Angeliq.jpg http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs12/300W/f/2006/339/e/2/Tehres_the_Necromancer_by_Angeliq.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/089/e/5/The_Necromancer_by_Eireen.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/089/e/5/The_Necromancer_by_Eireen.jpg http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/040/c/b/Necromancer_by_3vil0wnzjoo.jpg http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/040/c/b/Necromancer_by_3vil0wnzjoo.jpg http://fc02.deviantart.com/images/i/2003/4/d/2/Necromancer3.jpg http://fc02.deviantart.com/images/i/2003/4/d/2/Necromancer3.jpg http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs16/f/2007/141/f/e/Necromancer_by_Edli.jpg http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs16/f/2007/141/f/e/Necromancer_by_Edli.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs4/i/2004/197/0/c/Necromancer_Nehinah.jpg http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs4/i/2004/197/0/c/Necromancer_Nehinah.jpg http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2006/351/5/b/Necromencer_by_aturkone.jpg http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2006/351/5/b/Necromencer_by_aturkone.jpg
Krusk 11-11-07, 06:11 PM	The reason I suggested the spontaneous casting and charisma based was that I viewed something like this being a spontaneous necromancy master, kind of like in Diablo II (I've never played it myself, but I've watched my roomate). Also, with this extremely limited spell list it just makes sense to give it spontaneous casting and the sorcerer spells per day. And all you have to do is reflavor the spells a bit, and a little somewhere else to get the correct flavor for this. And the studying tomes and stuff is what the other class features are. Also, believe it or not, a lot of the dealings with life and death are charisma things, much like outsiders. I do like the positive and negative energy mastery ideas, but they need to change to something else. That actually makes a lot of sense. I think you said the same thing as befor, but worded diffrently it makes a lot of sense. I like the bonuses and penalties, after think of darth sidious from star wars. He is essentially forcing himself to live forever and look at his body -when hes not filling it with the force to make it crazy- as for the pics, i like http://fc02.deviantart.com/images/i/2003/4/d/2/Necromancer3.jpg and http://fc04.deviantart.com/fs16/f/2007/141/f/e/Necromancer_by_Edli.jpg ones styles a lot. I would use the top one but the rot necromancer grabbed it first. http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2006/351/5/b/Necromencer_by_aturkone.jpg is sweet but i dont know how well it fits.
dman11235 11-11-07, 10:46 PM	Well, that's starting with a 10 con and going to 4, which is what the aging penalties are. I'd say he stopped aging, or rather, stopped the effects of it after a bit. Besides, eventually you'll get to con/str/dex 0 and die the way you have it.
Krusk 11-11-07, 11:08 PM	yeah, do you think throwing a minimum it can lower the stat to would work or just be cheesy? Such as you take a penalty, per century putting your stat to a minimum of 3? or does that seem a little forced?
Dog_O_War 11-11-07, 11:31 PM	Having a "minimum" would be chessy. Think of it this way; only the fitest will survive, then so too shall this hold for the "Coffinator". (master of life and death is too much of a mouthful. Person1 "I'm a necromancer" Person2 "I'm a master of life and death" Necromancer "...so...am...I? was that just one class, or are you RPing your 'title'?")
dman11235 11-12-07, 12:41 AM	No, I think it should not change your stats at all. Fear Auras should be charisma based. How often do you see a guy who studies has an aura of fear because his brain is big? It'll be about how your presence is. And that's charisma. And I too would like to suggest Coffinator for the name. That is, if it wasn't for being serious. But the Master of Life and Death is worse than Coffinator. So....
Dog_O_War 11-12-07, 11:46 AM	My fix suggestions. Change Fear Aura to Aura of Dispair Aura of Dispair(su): a [coffinator] (man this name is awful) exudes an unatural aura of sadness and dread. all those within 30 feet of the [coffinator] take a -1 penalty to all fear spells and effects while within the area of effect. Greater aura of dispair(su): at tenth level the [coffinator] replaces his aura of dispair with a greater aura of dispair, which causes all those within a 30 foot range to take a -1 penalty to all attack rolls and skill checks, as well as a -1 penalty to saves versus fear. Aura of Bleak future(su): At 20th level the [coffinator] replaces his greater aura of dispair with one of dark forboding. All those within 30 feet of the [coffinator] take a -1 penalty to all saves versus necromancy spells and effects, as well as fear effects (I don't remember if fear is exclusive to necromancy) and all attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. *it should be noted that these auras are morale effects and as such, creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to these auras. Because it is not exactly a fear effect, these auras will still affect creatures solely immune to fear and nothing else* Unnatural Gaze(su): At 6th level, a [coffinator] gains the ability to simply look apon a creature, forcing it to flee. At will as a standard action a [coffinator] may produce a fear effect similar to a cause fear spell (save DC= 10+ 1/2level+ CHA modifier). Due to the [coffinator]'s strong ties to both life and death, this ability may affect even the undead who would normally be immune to this ability (think 'casting chill touch' on them). Positive and negative energy mastery: I looked at this ability, and this is what I've come up with; wizards' spell progression (int and all), but may spontaineously turn prepared spells into cures or inflicts. This seems a little over-done (to me; it's like every class gets a 'spontaineous' something), but would fit well with the class. And with the limited spells per day, it acts as a power cap as well. This would be available at first level; maybe third. I would insert a note for the dedication has its toll ability; "while the [coffinator] gains symtoms of taint, he does not actually have a taint score, unless gained through a different means. That said, he may have multiple symptoms from a given category." I'd also like to add that this is quite the disadvantage and should have some form of compensation. While stat boosts for a base class are not appropriate, maybe... *note that these abilities should only be gained when taint-by-level is gained. The 'spurn death's touch' ability should be the last one gained, in conjunction with severe taint. (additional note that while the two - mettle and SDT - may seem to be overpowering, most necromancy spells are resisted with fortitude, and that the [coffinator] has a poor fortitude save)* Mettle: as the ability from a few other classes (Hexblade being one of them) Spurn Death's touch(ex): gain the ability to treat all necromancy spells as fortitude partial spells; if damage is listed, then only half damage on a successful save, same goes for ability drain and level loss. If a duration is listed, then half duration, rounded down (min. zero). If no save is offered, then this ability instead allows a save. *three other abilities that I just cannot come up with* This is all I've got for now.
Krusk 11-12-07, 12:51 PM	Coffinator is a ton easier to write and say, so we will go with that for now. That said, thanks a ton dog, i flat out copied some of your suggestions into the class, but im not so sure about the spontaneous cure/inflict. Are you suggesting i go back to int based casting, as a wizard with a spellbook, and then allow spontaneous cure/inflict? that seems more fitting with what i originally had in mind. As for things to boost in the class in power because of the taint drawback, that was originally what positive and negative energy mastery was put in the class for. Do you think thats not enough?
Dog_O_War 11-12-07, 12:52 PM	Who's "don?";) Yes I was suggesting to go back to int/wizard spellcasting. As for the positive/negative mastery balancing out taint; taint can be the most harshest of penalties; there are things like spellfailure, as well as auto-lose ones (fight or flight, confusion). These need some hefty (or atleast useful) abilities to balance out these penalties.
Krusk 11-12-07, 01:01 PM	sorry about that/\. type-o. Good because i liked int based casting as wizard better, but the vibe here seemed to be cha based so i switched.
dman11235 11-12-07, 03:52 PM	Why int though? It makes no sense to me, especially with this limited spell list. This seems to me to want some int based class features, but charisma based spells. Something like int determining bonus spells, and charisma determining save DC. That would be the best actually. And the non-save DC class abilities determined via int (if applicable). Oh, and in case you haven't guessed, I will not be making a class for this, as there is is already one up here.
Krusk 11-12-07, 04:07 PM	Why int though? It makes no sense to me, especially with this limited spell list. This seems to me to want some int based class features, but charisma based spells. Something like int determining bonus spells, and charisma determining save DC. That would be the best actually. And the non-save DC class abilities determined via int (if applicable). Oh, and in case you haven't guessed, I will not be making a class for this, as there is is already one up here. Because this is a class that researches day in and day out. They spend their time searching for the answers to mysteries. I really dont see how its force of personality or physical beauty. The two things i have seen people identify with cha. I personally use force of personality. also I noticed you wernt writing a class. Thats fine, but if you have any mechanical ideas feel free to contribute.
dman11235 11-12-07, 07:10 PM	Alright, but at least have it be spontaneous with this limited spell list. All spells on the spell list are spells known, much like the war mage.
Krusk 11-13-07, 08:50 PM	So I was thinking of what to do with positive and negative energy mastery. How do these look. Negative Energy Mastery- The [Coffinator] has become so attuned with the forces of negative energy he no longer suffers the effects of a number of negative levels equal to his [Stat] mod. He is also immune to ability drain. Level 12- Through even more reaserch he has discovered a way to restore negative levels delt to himself and others. He may restore a number of negative levels equal to his [Stat] mod per day. This requires a melee touch attack, and costs the equivilent of 200gp in supplies per negative level. He has also become immune to ability damage. Level 18-Through several lifetimes of reaserch he has discovered a way to reverse the effects of positive energy. He can treat any cure, heal, restoration, inflict, harm, or variant of the above spell he sees cast and idenfities as though it had the opposite effect on himself or another. He may do this a number of times equal to his [Stat]mod per day. An inflict spell reversed this way instead heals hit points, and the same for the above. To do this he needs to spend only an immediate action, and need not have prepared any action to do so. Positive Energy Mastery- Through the careful study of positive energy, that force that flows through all creatures, he has managed to construe a method with which he can restore a number of ability point damage or drain equal to his [Stat] mod. This requires a successful melee touch attack and requires a standard action and a material cost of 100gp per point of damage or drain cured. Level 13- Through even more study, he has discovered a manner in which he can effectivly supercharge his channeling ability of positive energy. He may treat a number of cure,heal, restoration, or a variant of these spells as empowered. He can do this spontaneously, as he casts the spell, but he may only do it a number of times per day equal to his [Stat] mod. Level 19- He has mastered the channeling of positive energy, He is now immune to negative energy damage, vile and holy damage. [looking for something better] Also if someone can tell me how to post a pic, i will add one of the ones that were posted. thanks.
Ultima0071 11-14-07, 12:06 AM	Insert the tags. Just post the link inside.
dman11235 11-14-07, 01:35 AM	I like the last one for positive energy mastery. I don't like the others. NEM 1: Have it be a straight reduction of a fixed value (like 2 or 1/x class level, =ability modifier can change too much) from the number of negative levels that you take. Or just be immune to negative levels, and nothing about ability drain. NEM 2: immune to ability drain. NEM 3: immune to ability damage. These last two stating that it only works with ability damage/drain that is based off of negative energy. Also on 3, give him a (su) ability to x/day, 1/x class levels/day, or stat mod per day protrude an aura out to 30' for (stat in rounds, 1/x class level in rounds, or 1 minute) that reverses all cure and inflict spells. You'll note that this is a step up from your version. My bet's on 3/day for stat rounds (probably charisma). PEM 1: Lesser Restoration 1/day per 4 class levels as a (sp). Otherwise, you're gonna have to think of something else, because yeah, it's on their spell list. My other suggestion would be a reverse of NEM 1. This is how: positive energy adaptation. You no longer have to make fort saves to resist blowing up from positive energy traits. PEM 2: all cure spells are empowered. PEM 3: permanent death/life ward which can be lowered as a free action (not swift). Caster level = class level, if dispelled, can be put up as a free action next turn. (this is similar to what you have already, but throw away the evil/holy damage thing. It doesn't fit) This brings me to another point: Lifeward needs to be on the spell list (it's deathward, but with positive energy, SpC).
Krusk 11-14-07, 02:10 AM	Thats funny, i liked them all but the last one for PEM, which i threw together in literally 30seconds as i was about to post it rather than leave it blank. The aura of reversal sounds like a better easier way to do it. Also i should add life/death ward to the spell list. good idea. "You no longer have to make fort saves to resist blowing up from positive energy traits." How often does this happen?
dman11235 11-14-07, 02:12 AM	I don't know. But then there's also the Vivacious creatures you need to look out for. I would like to redo my suggestion for NEM 1: immune to negative energy planar traits.
Krusk 11-16-07, 06:52 PM	One last bump for good luck.
dman11235 11-16-07, 06:58 PM	Oh, and you still haven't given me a good reason that programmed amnesia and time stop are on the spell list. Also, I just noticed, you should not have Dedication has it's Toll on any level that does not have a benifit to it.
Krusk 11-17-07, 03:11 AM	Oh, and you still haven't given me a good reason that programmed amnesia and time stop are on the spell list. Also, I just noticed, you should not have Dedication has it's Toll on any level that does not have a benifit to it. I dont need to give you a good reason. That said, they are on the list because of the slight time and knowledge theme to the class. They have discovered how to last forever, it only stands to reason they have found how to skip moments in time. As for programed amnesia, this is because they spend all their efforts trying to cram as much secrets into their own memory, it stands to reason they have learned a thing or two about modifying memory. Dedication has its tole was put at an even progression so that it is easily scaled into epic levels, and so that you always can tell when you get one. Every 4 levels.
dman11235 11-17-07, 03:24 AM	Well, it's just not good form to put it at a level that doesn't get you a benifit. Why take that level then? It only hurts you. Also, why continue that ability into epic? Don't you think that once you go insane up to a point that's enough? Personally I don't see why it would continue, I mean, there are no great benifits that need to be balanced out in epic, and one would think that by that time, the amount of work done would have gotten you used to being insane.
Krusk 11-17-07, 03:34 AM	Well, it's just not good form to put it at a level that doesn't get you a benifit. Why take that level then? It only hurts you. Also, why continue that ability into epic? Don't you think that once you go insane up to a point that's enough? Personally I don't see why it would continue, I mean, there are no great benifits that need to be balanced out in epic, and one would think that by that time, the amount of work done would have gotten you used to being insane. They get a benefit at the level before, and probably after most of the time. Why take that level? because they want the level after it/want to increase spells/want to increase positive and negative energy mastery. You think they would be used to seeing the sights that can drive a man insane? While i totally disagree with the logic this point leads to, i do think thats a cool ability for the class. What do people think of an ever increasing will save bonus. Sort of like the battle fortitude of the scout. +1 every five levels, due to seeing things that should not be seen on such a regular basis. No great benefits in epic your right, but i would like a logical easy extension to exist if the class is played that far. it would also gain logical benefits based off the class, i just dont know what they are yet.I enjoy, as a player, knowing when my new ability kicks in/penalty turns on by looking at my character sheet and not having to open the book. It makes it mechanically "prettier".
dman11235 11-17-07, 03:44 AM	hmmm, well if you are going to have a progressive bonus in epic, you may want to have it start non-epic. Also, epic feats 1/5. Same as any full-caster. As for the feat list, just look at the wizard, sorcerer, cleric and go from there. Shouldn't be too different. i can't think of something that would not imbalance things right now that could be put in to epic. Maybe a caster level boost for negative and positive energy spells, +1 per 6 levels, faster progress in epic, but that gets boring fast.
Krusk 11-17-07, 03:51 AM	I dont really have any intention of working out an epic progression until the base class itself is hammered out. But if things are given an even progression then they will be easier for me in the long run.