All the hands, none of the extra [Archive] - Wizards Community

All the hands, none of the extra [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mentis_Veio
12-04-07, 11:27 PM Here's my dilemma:
I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas?
2y1y1z2
12-04-07, 11:53 PM Off tghe top of my head? Fighter with at least these feats:
H Versatile Unarmed Strike
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1f Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack)
2f ???
3 Superior Unarmed Strike
4f Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Attack)
6 ???
6f ???
8f Improved Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack)
9 Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
10f ???
12 Improved weapon Specialization (Unarmed Attack)
12f Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
14f ???
15 ???
16f ???
18 Weapon Supremacy
18f ???
20f ???
bahamut920
12-05-07, 12:09 AM Well, for almost any non-monk that wanted to go unarmed, Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) are a must.

As for classes, the battledancer from Dragon Compendium is an unarmed fighting class with monk-like unarmed attack progression. However, Dragon Compendium isn't a WotC written book, so your DM might not like it, and it has some special/supernatural abilities. The Swordsage and Warblade from Tome of Battle are also good unarmed fighters, using maneuvers to make up for substandard (at least at early levels) weapon damage. You can even get away with not using anything particularly magical/supernatural by focusing on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and/or Setting Sun. Fighter's a good idea, too, 'cause all those feats will come in handy. I can't think of any other classes off the top of my head.
Ghostwheel
12-05-07, 12:30 AM The Reaping Mauler also comes to mind. They aren't punchers, they are wrestlers, so it may not be what you are looking for.
AtsuiShoto
12-05-07, 12:38 AM Psychic Warrior can work out quite nicely for an unarmed fighter, especially a part-time grappler, using powers like Expansion, Grip of Iron and Animal Affinity to boost grappling potential. The bonus feats help you to pick up those essential unarmed feats early.

If the gish thing isn't your cup of tea, though, then psiwarrior really isn't for you.
Bahumut
12-05-07, 12:39 AM dont forget snap kick from ToB at 6th level, mimics a flurry.
The_Cheeseman
12-05-07, 12:43 AM The swordsage also has a section in their adaptation description that tells how to adapt them for a monk-like role. It says that they can have a monk unarmed strike progression, but lose their light armor proficiency. Honestly, swordsage is a better class in general, so you're probably better off going with it rather than a monk, anyway.

If you would prefer to go with another class, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat grants you an unarmed strike damage progression that is only one step inferior to a monk, and the Snap Kick feat gives you the monk's flurry of blows ability (though, only the most basic version). Both feats are from the Tome of Battle.
The_Shaman
12-05-07, 08:03 AM Here's my dilemma:
I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas?

I'd start with fighter (or, tbh, any other martial class - ToB classes and soulborns deserve a special mention) and probably put in some Shou Disciple/IDM/Fist of the Forest levels. That should be enough at first.
Lord_Zeb
12-05-07, 10:13 AM Tattooed Monk is a good PrC that you can take after say, 2 level of Monk, and then 4 levels of Rogue for some Sneak attack damage to your Flurry of blows and Uncanny Dodge. It is possible to get there with 5 levels of Fighter or something else though, but the 8 ranks of Knowledge(Religion) requirement needs to be appeased. It's basically a boosted Monk that gain other kind of abilities, and still gaining the improved unarmed damage as he levels up.

There are also a few other Monk PrCs out there, if you wish to go for Monkish attributes but also gain power elsewhere, such as Enlightened Fist (Arcane spellcaster) or Sacred Fist (Divine spellcaster).
InkBlot
12-05-07, 12:04 PM You can even get away with not using anything particularly magical/supernatural by focusing on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and/or Setting Sun.
Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, and White Raven don't have anything supernatural either.

Only Shadow Hand and Desert Wind have any supernatural maneuvers, and even those have mundane ones too.

Desert Wind in particular can help mimic a monk. It has maneuvers which boost your speed and give you extra attacks. Flashing Sun, for instance, is 1st level strike that perfectly duplicates flurry of blows (full attack with extra attack all at -2). Wind Stride is a 1st level boost (swift action) that increases your speed by +10. Desert Tempest is my favorite mundane Desert Wind maneuver; it's a 6th level strike which lets you move up to your speed and make one attack against everyone you pass.

Shadow Hand has maneuvers which can replace a monk's Abundant Step (trading the 1/day use limit for a 50-foot distance limit), and empty body (but incorporeal instead of ethereal). However, you said you didn't want any of that. Shadow Hand's mundane maneuvers are good if you picture your monk's hitting pressure points to make their opponent's limbs go numb, and things like that.

Stone Dragon can help mimic stunning fist with it's maneuvers which deny opponents actions. It also has Crushing Weight Of The Mountain, a grappling stance which grants you a constrict attack.

Iron Heart's extra-attack maneuvers are more like Whirlwind Attack than Flurry Of Blows, but they're still extra-attack granters.

Diamond Mind has the Avalanche Of Blades strike, in which you keep getting iterative attacks until you miss. It's 9th level strike gives you two full attacks in a row. Diamond Mind also has some nice saving-throw-boosting counters.

Tiger Claw gives maneuvers that benefit from or require you to wield two weapons (e.g., two fists). It also has maneuvers that require or enable jumping around (monks are very good at jumping). It also has Wolverine Stance, which is great for grappling things bigger than you.

Setting Sun has lots of throws/trips and counters. It's very good for a fast-on-your-feet you-can't-touch-me type monk.

It all comes down to what you mean by "all the monk-like fighting abilities." Extra attacks and extra unarmed damage is easy to get. Extra speed is slightly harder to come by without items. Stunning Fist is just a feat, but it can also be duplicated by other things. The Swordsage grants your Wis-to-AC, and so does a Monk's Belt.

All maneuvers work with unarmed strikes (or any weapon). Each maneuver you have can be used once, but recovering allows you to use them again. Each class recovers differently, but at worst it takes a full round action. Stances are always on, but you can only be in one stance at a time. Strikes are full-round or standard-action attacks. Boosts are short duration swift action buffs. Counters are immediate action counter attacks and defensive moves.

Tome Of Battle multiclasses extremely well. 1/2 your non-class levels count towards your class level to determine your initiator level. For example, a Monk4/Warblade5 has an initiator level of 7 and can learn 4th level maneuvers.
Scion of Coldshard
12-05-07, 06:26 PM You can take levels in totemist to get something like that and there are a number of home brewed feats on this board that can do it as well.

There is even the druid alternate progression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) which will get you most of the way there and greater magic fang and a few other spells will help finish the job.
risner
12-05-07, 06:28 PM Here's my dilemma:
I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas?

Superior Unarmed Strike
Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine) Chaotic (not Lawful) monk.
Improved Natural Attack (requires Monk 1)
Pugilist (Fighter Unarmed variant Dragon Magazine with IUS and Endurance plus one bonus fighter feat at 1st level)
Shou Disciple or Kensai (has an oath)
Fist of the Forest
The_Wyld
12-06-07, 12:20 AM I remember reading a issue of Dragon (not sure which number) that had a barb variant that gave up its side abilities like trap sense (among others, they did keep rage and DR though) and gained monk unarmed strike progression. It was called the Urban Brawler if memory serves.
Qube
12-06-07, 10:29 AM lets see, 2d10 ? thats 11 damage average

feat 1): impr unarmed strike
feat 2) power attack (since monks have med BAB, you can power attack any additional damage away) ; tha's 7 damage per hit
feat 3) WF(US) combined with power attack thats 8 damage
feat 4) WS(US) 10 damage
feat 8) mellee weapon mastery puches you over the cliff
The_Shaman
12-06-07, 05:36 PM True, but FoB is supposed to compensate for the lost attack bonus. If you do not have it and have the same attack bonus, you're likely to hit less often - 15/15/15/10/5 isn't the same like 15/10/5/0, and monks sometimes have problem hitting too.

SUS, WSpec and MW mastery more or less even the score, though. 1d12+4 is nearly ideantical to 2d10, and you hit a lot more often even with snap kick - 21/21/16/11/6 vs 15/15/15/10/5 (WF, MWM and SK included, no PA).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mentis_Veio 12-04-07, 11:27 PM	Here's my dilemma: I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas?
2y1y1z2 12-04-07, 11:53 PM	Off tghe top of my head? Fighter with at least these feats: H Versatile Unarmed Strike 1 Improved Unarmed Strike 1f Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack) 2f ??? 3 Superior Unarmed Strike 4f Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Attack) 6 ??? 6f ??? 8f Improved Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack) 9 Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) 10f ??? 12 Improved weapon Specialization (Unarmed Attack) 12f Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) 14f ??? 15 ??? 16f ??? 18 Weapon Supremacy 18f ??? 20f ???
bahamut920 12-05-07, 12:09 AM	Well, for almost any non-monk that wanted to go unarmed, Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) are a must. As for classes, the battledancer from Dragon Compendium is an unarmed fighting class with monk-like unarmed attack progression. However, Dragon Compendium isn't a WotC written book, so your DM might not like it, and it has some special/supernatural abilities. The Swordsage and Warblade from Tome of Battle are also good unarmed fighters, using maneuvers to make up for substandard (at least at early levels) weapon damage. You can even get away with not using anything particularly magical/supernatural by focusing on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and/or Setting Sun. Fighter's a good idea, too, 'cause all those feats will come in handy. I can't think of any other classes off the top of my head.
Ghostwheel 12-05-07, 12:30 AM	The Reaping Mauler also comes to mind. They aren't punchers, they are wrestlers, so it may not be what you are looking for.
AtsuiShoto 12-05-07, 12:38 AM	Psychic Warrior can work out quite nicely for an unarmed fighter, especially a part-time grappler, using powers like Expansion, Grip of Iron and Animal Affinity to boost grappling potential. The bonus feats help you to pick up those essential unarmed feats early. If the gish thing isn't your cup of tea, though, then psiwarrior really isn't for you.
Bahumut 12-05-07, 12:39 AM	dont forget snap kick from ToB at 6th level, mimics a flurry.
The_Cheeseman 12-05-07, 12:43 AM	The swordsage also has a section in their adaptation description that tells how to adapt them for a monk-like role. It says that they can have a monk unarmed strike progression, but lose their light armor proficiency. Honestly, swordsage is a better class in general, so you're probably better off going with it rather than a monk, anyway. If you would prefer to go with another class, the Superior Unarmed Strike feat grants you an unarmed strike damage progression that is only one step inferior to a monk, and the Snap Kick feat gives you the monk's flurry of blows ability (though, only the most basic version). Both feats are from the Tome of Battle.
The_Shaman 12-05-07, 08:03 AM	Here's my dilemma: I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas? I'd start with fighter (or, tbh, any other martial class - ToB classes and soulborns deserve a special mention) and probably put in some Shou Disciple/IDM/Fist of the Forest levels. That should be enough at first.
Lord_Zeb 12-05-07, 10:13 AM	Tattooed Monk is a good PrC that you can take after say, 2 level of Monk, and then 4 levels of Rogue for some Sneak attack damage to your Flurry of blows and Uncanny Dodge. It is possible to get there with 5 levels of Fighter or something else though, but the 8 ranks of Knowledge(Religion) requirement needs to be appeased. It's basically a boosted Monk that gain other kind of abilities, and still gaining the improved unarmed damage as he levels up. There are also a few other Monk PrCs out there, if you wish to go for Monkish attributes but also gain power elsewhere, such as Enlightened Fist (Arcane spellcaster) or Sacred Fist (Divine spellcaster).
InkBlot 12-05-07, 12:04 PM	You can even get away with not using anything particularly magical/supernatural by focusing on Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and/or Setting Sun. Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, and White Raven don't have anything supernatural either. Only Shadow Hand and Desert Wind have any supernatural maneuvers, and even those have mundane ones too. Desert Wind in particular can help mimic a monk. It has maneuvers which boost your speed and give you extra attacks. Flashing Sun, for instance, is 1st level strike that perfectly duplicates flurry of blows (full attack with extra attack all at -2). Wind Stride is a 1st level boost (swift action) that increases your speed by +10. Desert Tempest is my favorite mundane Desert Wind maneuver; it's a 6th level strike which lets you move up to your speed and make one attack against everyone you pass. Shadow Hand has maneuvers which can replace a monk's Abundant Step (trading the 1/day use limit for a 50-foot distance limit), and empty body (but incorporeal instead of ethereal). However, you said you didn't want any of that. Shadow Hand's mundane maneuvers are good if you picture your monk's hitting pressure points to make their opponent's limbs go numb, and things like that. Stone Dragon can help mimic stunning fist with it's maneuvers which deny opponents actions. It also has Crushing Weight Of The Mountain, a grappling stance which grants you a constrict attack. Iron Heart's extra-attack maneuvers are more like Whirlwind Attack than Flurry Of Blows, but they're still extra-attack granters. Diamond Mind has the Avalanche Of Blades strike, in which you keep getting iterative attacks until you miss. It's 9th level strike gives you two full attacks in a row. Diamond Mind also has some nice saving-throw-boosting counters. Tiger Claw gives maneuvers that benefit from or require you to wield two weapons (e.g., two fists). It also has maneuvers that require or enable jumping around (monks are very good at jumping). It also has Wolverine Stance, which is great for grappling things bigger than you. Setting Sun has lots of throws/trips and counters. It's very good for a fast-on-your-feet you-can't-touch-me type monk. It all comes down to what you mean by "all the monk-like fighting abilities." Extra attacks and extra unarmed damage is easy to get. Extra speed is slightly harder to come by without items. Stunning Fist is just a feat, but it can also be duplicated by other things. The Swordsage grants your Wis-to-AC, and so does a Monk's Belt. All maneuvers work with unarmed strikes (or any weapon). Each maneuver you have can be used once, but recovering allows you to use them again. Each class recovers differently, but at worst it takes a full round action. Stances are always on, but you can only be in one stance at a time. Strikes are full-round or standard-action attacks. Boosts are short duration swift action buffs. Counters are immediate action counter attacks and defensive moves. Tome Of Battle multiclasses extremely well. 1/2 your non-class levels count towards your class level to determine your initiator level. For example, a Monk4/Warblade5 has an initiator level of 7 and can learn 4th level maneuvers.
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 06:26 PM	You can take levels in totemist to get something like that and there are a number of home brewed feats on this board that can do it as well. There is even the druid alternate progression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) which will get you most of the way there and greater magic fang and a few other spells will help finish the job.
risner 12-05-07, 06:28 PM	Here's my dilemma: I'm looking for a class or a series of feats that would give me all the monk-like fighting abilities, but none of the extra things like "Diamond Body". The whole reason being, I want my character to be exceptional at fighting with no weapons, but the monk background doesnt really fit my character. He isn't interested in perfecting himself or being particularly lawful. Any ideas? Superior Unarmed Strike Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine) Chaotic (not Lawful) monk. Improved Natural Attack (requires Monk 1) Pugilist (Fighter Unarmed variant Dragon Magazine with IUS and Endurance plus one bonus fighter feat at 1st level) Shou Disciple or Kensai (has an oath) Fist of the Forest
The_Wyld 12-06-07, 12:20 AM	I remember reading a issue of Dragon (not sure which number) that had a barb variant that gave up its side abilities like trap sense (among others, they did keep rage and DR though) and gained monk unarmed strike progression. It was called the Urban Brawler if memory serves.
Qube 12-06-07, 10:29 AM	lets see, 2d10 ? thats 11 damage average feat 1): impr unarmed strike feat 2) power attack (since monks have med BAB, you can power attack any additional damage away) ; tha's 7 damage per hit feat 3) WF(US) combined with power attack thats 8 damage feat 4) WS(US) 10 damage feat 8) mellee weapon mastery puches you over the cliff
The_Shaman 12-06-07, 05:36 PM	True, but FoB is supposed to compensate for the lost attack bonus. If you do not have it and have the same attack bonus, you're likely to hit less often - 15/15/15/10/5 isn't the same like 15/10/5/0, and monks sometimes have problem hitting too. SUS, WSpec and MW mastery more or less even the score, though. 1d12+4 is nearly ideantical to 2d10, and you hit a lot more often even with snap kick - 21/21/16/11/6 vs 15/15/15/10/5 (WF, MWM and SK included, no PA).