Allowing monks to multiclass... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Allowing monks to multiclass... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saurstalk
05-05-05, 11:25 AM I've had a hard time understanding why monks are restricted from multiclassing, but for perhaps the same problem w/ the 3E ranger class being adopted by many players only at first level via multiclass - game balance.

If you have read Oriental Adventures, monks can multiclass.

Moreover, it seems to me, that for roleplaying purposes, some classes would reflect a monk's self-discipline and exploration of self. As such, for "standard" DnD, I've allowed for certain exercises in multi-class that would seem to befit someone engaged in the monastic tradition.

1. Monk/Psion (Psychic Warrior or Soulknife). As an extension of power of the mind and body, a monk who has discovered within himself psionic aptitude has opened a greater door to self-understanding. Following both classes allows the monk to refine and build upon his physical and mental disciplines.

2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities.

3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power.

I've avoided Monk/Barbarian or /Bard for obvious reasons. I've also avoided Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Wizard simply because I don't see as "pure" an interdisciplinary approach in such multi-class mergers.

Anyhow, any thoughts? The door's wide open.
Docrailgun
05-05-05, 11:28 AM In the Eberron setting book, there are feats that allow Monks to freely multiclass with one other class of the player's choice. There are also feats in that same book that allow a monk to use a longsword, a longspear, or a two-blade sword as a monk weapon.
I've had a hard time understanding why monks are restricted from multiclassing, but for perhaps the same problem w/ the 3E ranger class being adopted by many players only at first level via multiclass - game balance.

If you have read Oriental Adventures, monks can multiclass.

Moreover, it seems to me, that for roleplaying purposes, some classes would reflect a monk's self-discipline and exploration of self. As such, for "standard" DnD, I've allowed for certain exercises in multi-class that would seem to befit someone engaged in the monastic tradition.

1. Monk/Psion (Psychic Warrior or Soulknife). As an extension of power of the mind and body, a monk who has discovered within himself psionic aptitude has opened a greater door to self-understanding. Following both classes allows the monk to refine and build upon his physical and mental disciplines.

2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities.

3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power.

I've avoided Monk/Barbarian or /Bard for obvious reasons. I've also avoided Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Wizard simply because I don't see as "pure" an interdisciplinary approach in such multi-class mergers.

Anyhow, any thoughts? The door's wide open.
seans23
05-05-05, 01:55 PM 2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities.

3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power.

Enlightened Fist and Sacred Fist prestige classes handle those. Check Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. Also in the Complete Adventurer, there are ascetic feats for multiclassing: Hunter (Ranger), Knight (Paladin), Mage (sorceror), and Rogue (guess)

In addition, you could always have a house rule that allows monks to multiclass.
SpaceDye
05-05-05, 01:57 PM I believe there was a... I think race, and I think in either Complete Adventurer or Races of Destiny that allowed monks, paladins, etc to multiclass and keep their class skills.

I can't seem to find it now though.
Memnoch138
05-05-05, 02:51 PM I have recently created a character with many of the same considerations.

Monk/sorcerer is something that makes very good sense, but once on paper doesn't work so well. The reason would be the stretching of ability scores. While a monk really needs a good wisdom to be effective, dexterity, constitution, and strength all factor in pretty heavy, too. Now, combining a sorcerer, who is primarily charisma based, starts to spread things a bit thin. Sure the character can be created, but won't be very effective IMO.

Monk/cleric actually works very well, as both benefit from a high wisdom. This is probably the best combo I could think of using simple core classes. Being able to combine unarmed strikes with spells like inflict damage (if evil) makes for a powerful single attack.

There are specific monk orders that allow them to freely multiclass without restrictions. Most of these are connected with some sort of faith. The order usually has some form of rigorous guidelines that keep PC's in check, and not allow them to make uber characters and throw the game out of balance for the other players. As you can imagine, this is certainly why multiclassing is restricted like this to begin with.

Myself, the Order of the White Rod just so happened to exist already. This is a monk order dedicated to Loviater and allowing multiclassing to cleric. Amazingly, the huge back story I had created for this character already had him dedicated to her, wishing to be a priest, and being from a region where his race not only worships the goddess, but is the ruling class. I couldn't believe my luck!! Thanks to my DM, all is still balanced and fun.
Saurstalk
05-05-05, 03:12 PM There are specific monk orders that allow them to freely multiclass without restrictions. Most of these are connected with some sort of faith. The order usually has some form of rigorous guidelines that keep PC's in check, and not allow them to make uber characters and throw the game out of balance for the other players. As you can imagine, this is certainly why multiclassing is restricted like this to begin with.

Myself, the Order of the White Rod just so happened to exist already. This is a monk order dedicated to Loviater and allowing multiclassing to cleric. Amazingly, the huge back story I had created for this character already had him dedicated to her, wishing to be a priest, and being from a region where his race not only worships the goddess, but is the ruling class. I couldn't believe my luck!! Thanks to my DM, all is still balanced and fun.

I appreciate people pointing to Eberron and Complete Adventurer for some guidance on this. Is that what you are referring to as well, or are you referencing another resource that allows for such.

I think the difficult thing is that I have Oriental Adventures incorporated into my campaign setting. It's hard to rationalize that one type of monk can freely multi-class while others must take on special feats to allow them to multiclass with one particular class. Granted, roleplayingwise, we are speaking of different regions, and perhaps different training, but aside from that, game rules get hard to rationalize.
PhaedrusXY
05-05-05, 03:25 PM I think the difficult thing is that I have Oriental Adventures incorporated into my campaign setting. It's hard to rationalize that one type of monk can freely multi-class while others must take on special feats to allow them to multiclass with one particular class. Granted, roleplayingwise, we are speaking of different regions, and perhaps different training, but aside from that, game rules get hard to rationalize.Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM.
Garath
05-05-05, 03:39 PM I don't really want to multiclass my monk, and I want to spend a feat to do it even less, but ... I really would like to get Uncanny Dodge for my 6th level Human Monk. Is there a good way to do this (a single feat for instance?).

I have never understood why Uncanny Dodge is not a standard Monk ability. It is certainly consistent with class flavor, and it is pretty much standard for other non-spell casting classes that have armor restrictions (barbarian, rogue).
Saurstalk
05-05-05, 03:48 PM Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM.

I suppose that this is the easiest way of doing things. :D

One thing I like about the ascetic feats in Complete Adventurer is that they provide not only multiclass provisions, but stacking of special abilities across classes.

The Eberron Monastic Tradition seems worthy only if you use a feat to allow for more multiclassing.
Navar
05-05-05, 04:17 PM Even most Game Designers think this is a bad idea. The Developers of the FRCS said that they wanted to remove the restriction, but were told they could not. The multiclass restriction is a rule to enfore roleplaying (these are considered bad by most people) So all games I run I remove the monk and paladin restrictions. Making it cost a feat is just underpowering an already underpowered character (a multiclassing monk.)
SilverFoxKnows
05-05-05, 04:48 PM I forget what they're called but IIRC they are allowed to multiclass freely between Cleric and Monk.
Memnoch138
05-05-05, 04:57 PM My references are from other sources. Off the top of my head, I think Faiths & Pantheons.
LordHell
05-05-05, 05:17 PM Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM.

So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian?

Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none?
Navar
05-05-05, 05:22 PM So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian?

Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none?

Also don't like alignments in general and I would remove them if I could, but in this case it wouldn't be a "Rage" as a "combat Kata" where the mechanics remain the same, but the flavor changes. That seems pretty simple to me.
Aethamyr
05-05-05, 05:23 PM So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian?

Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none?

Well, the alignment restrictions on both classes prevent this from happening easily, so it's still dealt with
Big Tom
05-05-05, 06:08 PM Well, the alignment restrictions on both classes prevent this from happening easily, so it's still dealt with

True, except that little bit flowed from a piece about removing Alingment restrictions and multiclass penalties.
Arcane Guyver
05-05-05, 06:28 PM Much as I love Eberron, the Monastic & Knight Training feats are just disgustingly bad, and the Ascetic & Devoted feats are only a step better.

The best fix for this IMO is to houserule the multiclassing restrictions from base classes away. Alignment, roleplaying, and MAD should be plenty restricting.
nato
05-05-05, 08:21 PM Even most Game Designers think this is a bad idea.

Yeah, here's a Sean K. Reynolds quote from his review of 3.5, from http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/opinions3p5chap123.html

Multiclassing Restriction: Why why why is this still here? It serves no mechanical purpose. I can think of many situations where the multiclassing restriction makes no sense. And the rule is something the original designers didn't want in the game but put in because playtesters thought it should be there. Since 3.0, I have heard nothing but complaints about the multiclassing restriction. It doesn't need to be here. House Rule: Monks do not have a multiclassing restriction.

He goes on to say the exact same thing about the Paladin restriction.

Speaking for myself, this is one of the very few rules I ignore. I see no good purpose to it. There is no reason why Monk or Paladin multiclasses make less RP sense than any of the other classes.
Weapons Lord
05-05-05, 09:07 PM Mongoose Publishing recently put out the Quintessential Monk II Advanced Tactics Book Seven that covers a variety of multi-class and additional monk progression classes.
PhaedrusXY
05-06-05, 04:21 AM Also don't like alignments in general and I would remove them if I could, but in this case it wouldn't be a "Rage" as a "combat Kata" where the mechanics remain the same, but the flavor changes. That seems pretty simple to me.I agree, and that's what I do too. I don't think every monk has to be roleplayed as a perfectly serene aesthetic. All of the martial artists in movies that I've seen certainly haven't been portrayed that way.

The only alignment restrictions that I actually use are those for Palladins, and some Prestige Classes. And I allow the variant Palladins for most other alignments, so that's not really an issue, either.
Thelon Fairblade
05-06-05, 07:54 AM Monk/Druid: the spiritual acestic who is in tune with both his own body, and with all of nature. Benefits: monk AC works in wildshape; WIS used by both classes; complies with druidic restrictions against metal

Monk/Fighter: can you say Sohei? The more martial defenders of the abbey, focusing on the combat techniques in their own right, instead as part of a spiritual whole. Benefits: more combat feats, potential to begin monk-ness with Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (Unarmed).

anyway, IMC each abbey has its specific multiclass tradition. The Abbey of Bending Willow allows monk/druids; the Convent of St. Althea allows monk/rogues (women only); the Temple of Brandos trains monk/paladins. Etc. No feat required, but no stepping outside these bounds, which carries additional restrictions - if you are a monk of the Bending Willow, you won't be learning the Steadfast Monk variant or Undying Way martial way which is only taught by the dwarven monks of Stone Heart Song (who, as it turns out, allow monk/fighter multiclass)....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurstalk 05-05-05, 11:25 AM	I've had a hard time understanding why monks are restricted from multiclassing, but for perhaps the same problem w/ the 3E ranger class being adopted by many players only at first level via multiclass - game balance. If you have read Oriental Adventures, monks can multiclass. Moreover, it seems to me, that for roleplaying purposes, some classes would reflect a monk's self-discipline and exploration of self. As such, for "standard" DnD, I've allowed for certain exercises in multi-class that would seem to befit someone engaged in the monastic tradition. 1. Monk/Psion (Psychic Warrior or Soulknife). As an extension of power of the mind and body, a monk who has discovered within himself psionic aptitude has opened a greater door to self-understanding. Following both classes allows the monk to refine and build upon his physical and mental disciplines. 2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities. 3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power. I've avoided Monk/Barbarian or /Bard for obvious reasons. I've also avoided Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Wizard simply because I don't see as "pure" an interdisciplinary approach in such multi-class mergers. Anyhow, any thoughts? The door's wide open.
Docrailgun 05-05-05, 11:28 AM	In the Eberron setting book, there are feats that allow Monks to freely multiclass with one other class of the player's choice. There are also feats in that same book that allow a monk to use a longsword, a longspear, or a two-blade sword as a monk weapon. I've had a hard time understanding why monks are restricted from multiclassing, but for perhaps the same problem w/ the 3E ranger class being adopted by many players only at first level via multiclass - game balance. If you have read Oriental Adventures, monks can multiclass. Moreover, it seems to me, that for roleplaying purposes, some classes would reflect a monk's self-discipline and exploration of self. As such, for "standard" DnD, I've allowed for certain exercises in multi-class that would seem to befit someone engaged in the monastic tradition. 1. Monk/Psion (Psychic Warrior or Soulknife). As an extension of power of the mind and body, a monk who has discovered within himself psionic aptitude has opened a greater door to self-understanding. Following both classes allows the monk to refine and build upon his physical and mental disciplines. 2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities. 3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power. I've avoided Monk/Barbarian or /Bard for obvious reasons. I've also avoided Druid, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin and Wizard simply because I don't see as "pure" an interdisciplinary approach in such multi-class mergers. Anyhow, any thoughts? The door's wide open.
seans23 05-05-05, 01:55 PM	2. Monk/Sorcerer. This monk has discovered deep within an innate quality that allows her an affinity toward arcane magics. This innate quality is bolstered by the monk's own study of internal disciplines and abilities. 3. Monk/Cleric. Unlike the typical depiction of a monk being a martial artist bent on refining one's internal abilities, this monk's focus is the connection between himself and his greater power. Enlightened Fist and Sacred Fist prestige classes handle those. Check Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. Also in the Complete Adventurer, there are ascetic feats for multiclassing: Hunter (Ranger), Knight (Paladin), Mage (sorceror), and Rogue (guess) In addition, you could always have a house rule that allows monks to multiclass.
SpaceDye 05-05-05, 01:57 PM	I believe there was a... I think race, and I think in either Complete Adventurer or Races of Destiny that allowed monks, paladins, etc to multiclass and keep their class skills. I can't seem to find it now though.
Memnoch138 05-05-05, 02:51 PM	I have recently created a character with many of the same considerations. Monk/sorcerer is something that makes very good sense, but once on paper doesn't work so well. The reason would be the stretching of ability scores. While a monk really needs a good wisdom to be effective, dexterity, constitution, and strength all factor in pretty heavy, too. Now, combining a sorcerer, who is primarily charisma based, starts to spread things a bit thin. Sure the character can be created, but won't be very effective IMO. Monk/cleric actually works very well, as both benefit from a high wisdom. This is probably the best combo I could think of using simple core classes. Being able to combine unarmed strikes with spells like inflict damage (if evil) makes for a powerful single attack. There are specific monk orders that allow them to freely multiclass without restrictions. Most of these are connected with some sort of faith. The order usually has some form of rigorous guidelines that keep PC's in check, and not allow them to make uber characters and throw the game out of balance for the other players. As you can imagine, this is certainly why multiclassing is restricted like this to begin with. Myself, the Order of the White Rod just so happened to exist already. This is a monk order dedicated to Loviater and allowing multiclassing to cleric. Amazingly, the huge back story I had created for this character already had him dedicated to her, wishing to be a priest, and being from a region where his race not only worships the goddess, but is the ruling class. I couldn't believe my luck!! Thanks to my DM, all is still balanced and fun.
Saurstalk 05-05-05, 03:12 PM	There are specific monk orders that allow them to freely multiclass without restrictions. Most of these are connected with some sort of faith. The order usually has some form of rigorous guidelines that keep PC's in check, and not allow them to make uber characters and throw the game out of balance for the other players. As you can imagine, this is certainly why multiclassing is restricted like this to begin with. Myself, the Order of the White Rod just so happened to exist already. This is a monk order dedicated to Loviater and allowing multiclassing to cleric. Amazingly, the huge back story I had created for this character already had him dedicated to her, wishing to be a priest, and being from a region where his race not only worships the goddess, but is the ruling class. I couldn't believe my luck!! Thanks to my DM, all is still balanced and fun. I appreciate people pointing to Eberron and Complete Adventurer for some guidance on this. Is that what you are referring to as well, or are you referencing another resource that allows for such. I think the difficult thing is that I have Oriental Adventures incorporated into my campaign setting. It's hard to rationalize that one type of monk can freely multi-class while others must take on special feats to allow them to multiclass with one particular class. Granted, roleplayingwise, we are speaking of different regions, and perhaps different training, but aside from that, game rules get hard to rationalize.
PhaedrusXY 05-05-05, 03:25 PM	I think the difficult thing is that I have Oriental Adventures incorporated into my campaign setting. It's hard to rationalize that one type of monk can freely multi-class while others must take on special feats to allow them to multiclass with one particular class. Granted, roleplayingwise, we are speaking of different regions, and perhaps different training, but aside from that, game rules get hard to rationalize.Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM.
Garath 05-05-05, 03:39 PM	I don't really want to multiclass my monk, and I want to spend a feat to do it even less, but ... I really would like to get Uncanny Dodge for my 6th level Human Monk. Is there a good way to do this (a single feat for instance?). I have never understood why Uncanny Dodge is not a standard Monk ability. It is certainly consistent with class flavor, and it is pretty much standard for other non-spell casting classes that have armor restrictions (barbarian, rogue).
Saurstalk 05-05-05, 03:48 PM	Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM. I suppose that this is the easiest way of doing things. :D One thing I like about the ascetic feats in Complete Adventurer is that they provide not only multiclass provisions, but stacking of special abilities across classes. The Eberron Monastic Tradition seems worthy only if you use a feat to allow for more multiclassing.
Navar 05-05-05, 04:17 PM	Even most Game Designers think this is a bad idea. The Developers of the FRCS said that they wanted to remove the restriction, but were told they could not. The multiclass restriction is a rule to enfore roleplaying (these are considered bad by most people) So all games I run I remove the monk and paladin restrictions. Making it cost a feat is just underpowering an already underpowered character (a multiclassing monk.)
SilverFoxKnows 05-05-05, 04:48 PM	I forget what they're called but IIRC they are allowed to multiclass freely between Cleric and Monk.
Memnoch138 05-05-05, 04:57 PM	My references are from other sources. Off the top of my head, I think Faiths & Pantheons.
LordHell 05-05-05, 05:17 PM	Then ignore/change the rules. I hate most of the multiclassing and alignment restrictions and ignore them in games I DM. So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian? Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none?
Navar 05-05-05, 05:22 PM	So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian? Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none? Also don't like alignments in general and I would remove them if I could, but in this case it wouldn't be a "Rage" as a "combat Kata" where the mechanics remain the same, but the flavor changes. That seems pretty simple to me.
Aethamyr 05-05-05, 05:23 PM	So how do you explain the Monk/Barbarian? Someone who has dedicated his life to discipline, but, flies into rage with none? Well, the alignment restrictions on both classes prevent this from happening easily, so it's still dealt with
Big Tom 05-05-05, 06:08 PM	Well, the alignment restrictions on both classes prevent this from happening easily, so it's still dealt with True, except that little bit flowed from a piece about removing Alingment restrictions and multiclass penalties.
Arcane Guyver 05-05-05, 06:28 PM	Much as I love Eberron, the Monastic & Knight Training feats are just disgustingly bad, and the Ascetic & Devoted feats are only a step better. The best fix for this IMO is to houserule the multiclassing restrictions from base classes away. Alignment, roleplaying, and MAD should be plenty restricting.
nato 05-05-05, 08:21 PM	Even most Game Designers think this is a bad idea. Yeah, here's a Sean K. Reynolds quote from his review of 3.5, from http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/opinions3p5chap123.html Multiclassing Restriction: Why why why is this still here? It serves no mechanical purpose. I can think of many situations where the multiclassing restriction makes no sense. And the rule is something the original designers didn't want in the game but put in because playtesters thought it should be there. Since 3.0, I have heard nothing but complaints about the multiclassing restriction. It doesn't need to be here. House Rule: Monks do not have a multiclassing restriction. He goes on to say the exact same thing about the Paladin restriction. Speaking for myself, this is one of the very few rules I ignore. I see no good purpose to it. There is no reason why Monk or Paladin multiclasses make less RP sense than any of the other classes.
Weapons Lord 05-05-05, 09:07 PM	Mongoose Publishing recently put out the Quintessential Monk II Advanced Tactics Book Seven that covers a variety of multi-class and additional monk progression classes.
PhaedrusXY 05-06-05, 04:21 AM	Also don't like alignments in general and I would remove them if I could, but in this case it wouldn't be a "Rage" as a "combat Kata" where the mechanics remain the same, but the flavor changes. That seems pretty simple to me.I agree, and that's what I do too. I don't think every monk has to be roleplayed as a perfectly serene aesthetic. All of the martial artists in movies that I've seen certainly haven't been portrayed that way. The only alignment restrictions that I actually use are those for Palladins, and some Prestige Classes. And I allow the variant Palladins for most other alignments, so that's not really an issue, either.
Thelon Fairblade 05-06-05, 07:54 AM	Monk/Druid: the spiritual acestic who is in tune with both his own body, and with all of nature. Benefits: monk AC works in wildshape; WIS used by both classes; complies with druidic restrictions against metal Monk/Fighter: can you say Sohei? The more martial defenders of the abbey, focusing on the combat techniques in their own right, instead as part of a spiritual whole. Benefits: more combat feats, potential to begin monk-ness with Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus (Unarmed). anyway, IMC each abbey has its specific multiclass tradition. The Abbey of Bending Willow allows monk/druids; the Convent of St. Althea allows monk/rogues (women only); the Temple of Brandos trains monk/paladins. Etc. No feat required, but no stepping outside these bounds, which carries additional restrictions - if you are a monk of the Bending Willow, you won't be learning the Steadfast Monk variant or Undying Way martial way which is only taught by the dwarven monks of Stone Heart Song (who, as it turns out, allow monk/fighter multiclass)....