Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Molitor 11-27-06, 03:53 AM	I am willing to DM for any 2 posters who wish to prove/disprove the "fighter's are weak" debate. Any takers are welcome to leave a post here and also which side they would prefer to be - fighter or other. Let's see if it's the class or the player behind the class that counts.
Tokorona 11-27-06, 04:11 AM	.. Ugh. Can we please stick to the threads that cover this, please?
Qube 11-27-06, 04:23 AM	DM: rules? - core-only or not? (and if core only: PHB-races? monster races? leadership feat?) - the use of prestige classes? ... - money? - point buy stats or default array (15,14,13,12,10,8 i thought)? (IMHO: classes with 1 stat (wiz/sor/...) and polymorph (who changes stats) are overpowered with point buy)
Vaelan 11-27-06, 05:35 AM	I am willing to DM for any 2 posters who wish to prove/disprove the "fighter's are weak" debate. Any takers are welcome to leave a post here and also which side they would prefer to be - fighter or other. Let's see if it's the class or the player behind the class that counts. Please explain how this has anything to do with an actual game of D&D.
Qube 11-27-06, 05:38 AM	Please explain how this has anything to do with an actual game of D&D. i think: we'll make builds (with their own task, like killing the enemy, disableing the enemy, guarding the party, ... ), he'll give us situations
Belgian Waffle 11-27-06, 07:59 AM	Alright, I'm all up for participating once we get some rules.
Torack 11-27-06, 09:04 AM	Problem is that with the new feats in Complete Warrior et. al. Fighters aren't that weak anymore. In addition, even core, Fighters aren't that weak, it's just that as they progress through levels, their role changes from bad-ass damage dealer to field-control/commander-in-charge. They basically make a transition from going into harms way to kill BBEG-1 to going into harms way to protect the casters of the party. I'm guessing a lot of people are slightly miffed by that change in role over 20 levels to someone that 'is supposed to be good at fighting' and coincidentally still is, just different from what you'd expect. Additionally, in the older editions it was custom to set-up a new player to the game with a fighter, as it was the easiest class around, nowadays that part goes to the barbarian and a lot of people (I reckon) haven't gotten their heads out of their unmentionables yet to notice it and go "Oh yeah! Doh!" So all in all, is a fighter weaker than any other class? Hardly. Fighters are, however, not the no-brainers they once were. That's barbarian territory nowadays.
Nephlite 11-27-06, 11:25 AM	So all in all, is a fighter weaker than any other class? Hardly. Fighters are, however, not the no-brainers they once were. That's barbarian territory nowadays. Barbs have skill points and can take all the tricks Fighters take (they can be good trippers, etc). But Barbs are easily to do damage dealing.
Wolfvyn 11-27-06, 12:19 PM	Problem is that with the new feats in Complete Warrior et. al. Fighters aren't that weak anymore. In addition, even core, Fighters aren't that weak, it's just that as they progress through levels, their role changes from bad-ass damage dealer to field-control/commander-in-charge. They basically make a transition from going into harms way to kill BBEG-1 to going into harms way to protect the casters of the party. . If only that were true, the fighter can't effectively protect anyone besides himself and he can only protect himself if he's lucky. The fighter's main ability to control a battlefield comes from AoO's which he can use to trip, disarm, grapple, ect. the main way to get AoO's is by putting yourself in the path of your enemy and wield a reach weapon. That gives you a ten foot reach if you're a medium sied character. But at this lvl, unless you're fighting other characters, your enemies will be at least large in size, most likely larger. That gives it the same if not longer reach than you. taking away mobilty options like flight, the critter can effectively walk around you to reach the casters, denying you your AoO's. Even if the critter decides charge right through your threatend area, your only option to stop it is to trip. It's most likely at least one size category larger than you, giving it a +4, negating half the benefit of improved trip, if it has four legs or stability that's another +4. Giving it the edge and if it happens to have a higher str than you tripping probbaly isn't going to do crap unless you roll high. Having your whole ability to fulfill your Job based upon rolling higg doesn't seem right does it? What can you do besides trip it? Hit it of course. Let's say you have a +5 collision glaive( a+7 weapon), that's +10 to damage, let's say you have a 30 str at lvl 20 that gives you another +15, if you took weapon spec, greater weapon spec and melee weapon mastery that gives you another +6 and let's say you power attack at -10. That gives you a to hit of +25 and lets you deal 1d10+51 damage. Not to bad, but at best that's what anywhere from 1/4- 1/10th it's health. You hurt it, but didn't stop it and now it is at the casters and ready to make mince meat out of them. your other option thanks to the player's handbook II to is if you beat the critters inititive you can use commetary collision and ready and action to stop it's charge, but that forces you to stick near the casters and wait. Sure you'll be able to stop it's charge, but what if it decides to do something else? Like use a breath weapon, a SLA, or take an action to charge the field? Cause a cave in, set off a trap (god forbid if the critter is smart and has prepared for pesky adventurers), ect. And all this is If the critter doesn't have mobility options like flight, teleport, shadowstride jumpr or whatever. What if it goes etherial? Even if you have a ghost touch weapon you're not going to be able to hit or damage it unless you have something that causes a force effect. What if it immobilizes the fighter so he can't move?
Belgian Waffle 11-27-06, 12:25 PM	No debating, guys. We need action! And rules. We're not even sure that we can use Complete Anything right now.
Clawhound 11-27-06, 12:36 PM	Setting up situations that are both fair and typical of the game is a tough challenge. I suggest making an iconic party to go with the challengers so that you get party synergies, which count so much towards a successful game. Give them a spell layout before anyone designs characters so that the designers know what to count on for support. If you don't take enough time to set up this contest well, both sides will cry foul and you won't demonstrate anything. (Actually, that will happen anyway, but you can at least satisfy the moderate middle.) You may need to weigh things, too. Some situations happen more often in a game than others. Typical situations should count more than occasional situations.
Belgian Waffle 11-27-06, 12:41 PM	Obviously, we need the challenges to happen at different levels of the player's life. And the encounters need to be a good mix of combat and non-combat situations. Attributes and Wealth need to be standardized, obviously. How're we going to determine rolls? Is the DM going to handle everything behind the scenes or are we going to just go with average rolls (10's for d20's)? Lots of things we need to know.
Wolfvyn 11-27-06, 12:50 PM	Heh, yeah might as well make it a settle the score campaign.
Argaud 11-27-06, 01:06 PM	I win all duels by using a Candle of Invocation to summon a Solar the first round. A Solar is a level 20 cleric, with superpowers, and wish as a sla, and CR 23. A commoner with one of this wins, and they cost just 8400 gold. Duels never prove anything. The only way to evaluate the performance of a class is through experience, which is often subjective, and even more often labeled 'anecdotic' by those who find it doesn't prove their point.
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 01:44 PM	.. Ugh. Can we please stick to the threads that cover this, please? Ditto. I win all duels by using a Candle of Invocation to summon a Solar the first round. A Solar is a level 20 cleric, with superpowers, and wish as a sla, and CR 23. A commoner with one of this wins, and they cost just 8400 gold. Duels never prove anything. The only way to evaluate the performance of a class is through experience, which is often subjective, and even more often labeled 'anecdotic' by those who find it doesn't prove their point. Also true. Duels don't model performance well at all.
levitation 11-27-06, 03:53 PM	Ditto. Also true. Duels don't model performance well at all. true, duels dont represent combat situations, if you are so eager then find a fighter build from the char opt thread or the fighters and 100 dm thread and find a random caster opt thread, determine if buffs apply before the begining then caster wins, if not then roll initiative, the one who wins initiative wins...that simple at high levels but at low levels it obvious...
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:14 PM	.. Ugh. Can we please stick to the threads that cover this, please? Go away if you don't like it.
Eela6 11-27-06, 11:18 PM	This has been done. Quite a bit. Please just let it die. <I wonder if there's some way to post without bumping a thread we could add>.
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:18 PM	DM: rules? - core-only or not? (and if core only: PHB-races? monster races? leadership feat?) - the use of prestige classes? ... - money? - point buy stats or default array (15,14,13,12,10,8 i thought)? (IMHO: classes with 1 stat (wiz/sor/...) and polymorph (who changes stats) are overpowered with point buy) It will be a set number of 'battles' in different locations. Core only for 2 battles, anything that I can get my hands on(bookwise) for the third. Money will be determined as per level. Default for 2 battles and point buy for a third. Please either post here or send me a personal message if you are interested, also tell me whether you want to play the fighter or the other.
Seerow 11-27-06, 11:19 PM	So, is there a set ruleset? Cause depending on the rules, I may be interested in taking one side or the other. (Or hell, I'd do both if people weren't afraid of me being biased) Edit: Damn, posted while I was posting. I'll take the non-fighter. For the non-core, the only thing I really need to know is do you have Races of Destiny, Complete Arcane, Libris Mortis, and Complete Divine? And what levels are we looking at? I'd say varying between 8 and 16-18 would be best, to avoid the typical "OMG ITS LEVEL 20" reaction, but starting around the point where the Fighter is supposedly dropping off in power. Because showing the Fighter does well at level 1-5 doesn't really prove anything.
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:21 PM	Please explain how this has anything to do with an actual game of D&D. Everytime and I mean EVERYTIME I am on these boards I see posters unhappy with the fighter, thinking the class weak or underpowered. Well, with some willing participants I will DM a duel(or in this case a set or duels) to see if it's the players or the class that matters.
Seerow 11-27-06, 11:23 PM	Well see, a duel doesn't really show that. Nor does an open challenge here, cause it could just be the better player is taking non-fighter. Actual gameplay is what shows a class is good or not. A Duel isn't a good way of judging anything, and is actually probably the Fighter's weakest point.
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:24 PM	Well it seems Wolfvyn and Torack disagree. Are you two interested in putting your money where your mouth is? I mean that with total respect.
Krevon 11-27-06, 11:29 PM	I thought this was just a troll when I first seen it but it isn't......
levitation 11-27-06, 11:30 PM	Well it seems Wolfvyn and Torack disagree. Are you two interested in putting your money where your mouth is? I mean that with total respect. oh, my god... at some point this fighter weakness/ignorance was going to get out of control, I expected hacking and user defacing but betting money on...this! good god! let some people be ignorant, the ones who love casters and say they are the best are power gamers who find every bit of way to beat the crap out of things with magic...but all this for money? let ignorant people go...
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 11:30 PM	Everytime and I mean EVERYTIME I am on these boards I see posters unhappy with the fighter, thinking the class weak or underpowered. Well, with some willing participants I will DM a duel(or in this case a set or duels) to see if it's the players or the class that matters. And a duel doesn't even vaguely accurately model anything in a *real* D&D game. Thus, it would prove nothing.
Seerow 11-27-06, 11:31 PM	Give me a level and if either of them steps up, I'll take the other side. Just cause.
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 11:34 PM	When it comes to duels, you can win simply on the basis of investing in one-shot items, since you will only ever be in one fight. You also don't get any modelling of party support, crowd control, utility outside of battle, team combat situations, combat against multiple enemies, limited resources by multiple encounters... If two properly optimized people come together in a blank arena with no buffs allowed and set a short distance from each other, the winner is whoever wins initiative. In REALITY, Divination matters, buffs exist, scry or die exists, distance exists, skills exist, utility exists, staying power throughout multiple encounters matters, adaptability to unique circumstances matters... and so on. Clearly, the OP doesn't really care about reality, or doesn't have a firm grasp on it. Or at least the reality of D&D mechanics as they work in practice.
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:34 PM	And a duel doesn't even vaguely accurately model anything in a *real* D&D game. Thus, it would prove nothing. Go away if you are not interested. That goes for everyone who has nothing to add to this thread.
OneWinged4ngel 11-27-06, 11:37 PM	You have nothing to add to the Fighter vs. Other discussion (at least insofar as this duel would represent), so you should be off your own thread ;)
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:42 PM	Give me a level and if either of them steps up, I'll take the other side. Just cause. Cool, I knew there was a reason I liked you. We have ONE people. Some of the particulars on the duels will only be sent to people who are genuinely interested, so as not to have interference or helping.
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:47 PM	I thought this was just a troll when I first seen it but it isn't...... I am NO troll, trust me this is 100% genuine!
levitation 11-27-06, 11:50 PM	If two properly optimized people come together in a blank arena with no buffs allowed and set a short distance from each other, the winner is whoever wins initiative. exactly both fighters and casters have the ability for one round kills, especially against pc's, initiative is the end of all, fighter charges with a leap attack build, love promoting those, kills casters...caster casts [insert cheap doomsday spell here], and if they were really cruel they get a spell with a will save...sometimes casters have ways to get an advantage and they think because they have it, they are the best, not always but a lot of times, not to be to general...
Molitor 11-27-06, 11:52 PM	So, levitation...are you interested in dueling Seerow?
levitation 11-28-06, 01:09 AM	So, levitation...are you interested in dueling Seerow? first off-rolling intiative-who is going to determine it? are buffs and other junk going to apply before combat? what level? distanc e from each other? if no pre battle buffs, 30 or so feet away, if its 20th level and i win intiative then it will be like this: 1. initiate leaping dragon stance 2. charge use leap attack+shock trooper, jump check easy 3. Probable hit, and pouncing charge ToB manuever 4. damage dealt to target: 170 from leap attack, 216 from full attack = 386 barely optimized damage to target... 5. next?
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 01:11 AM	first off-rolling intiative-who is going to determine it? are buffs and other junk going to apply before combat? what level? distanc e from each other? if no pre battle buffs, 30 or so feet away, if its 20th level and i win intiative then it will be like this: 1. initiate leaping dragon stance 2. charge use leap attack+shock trooper, jump check easy 3. Probable hit, and pouncing charge ToB manuever 4. damage dealt to target: 170 from leap attack, 216 from full attack = 386 barely optimized damage to target... 5. next? More or less. A similar thing happens if the Wizard wins initiative. This is why the duel is pointless. The contest will *actually* be "who can optimize initiative the best, or possibly get a luckier single roll" if there are no prebattle buffs. If there are prebattle buffs, you get people stacking up everything possible on them, blowing all spells or temporary items, and going at it.
levitation 11-28-06, 01:15 AM	More or less. A similar thing happens if the Wizard wins initiative. This is why the duel is pointless. The contest will *actually* be "who can optimize initiative the best, or possibly get a luckier single roll" if there are no prebattle buffs. If there are prebattle buffs, you get people stacking up everything possible on them, blowing all spells or temporary items, and going at it. exactly the point i have been trying to make in a lot of cases, usually the my dm lets me stack improved intiative feat through, which it should and would help the fighters so much, its not even funny... but i would like to see a wizard not using wish, or a save or die spell to kill this fighter, just for reference...
Seerow 11-28-06, 01:20 AM	If you like, and the sources I requested are available, for the high level Fight, I'll beat the Fighter in melee or ranged combat. You can choose.
levitation 11-28-06, 01:21 AM	If you like, and the sources I requested are available, for the high level Fight, I'll beat the Fighter in melee or ranged combat. You can choose. i dont care what build you use, it only really matters who goes first...
Seerow 11-28-06, 01:26 AM	i dont care what build you use, it only really matters who goes first... Why? Because the Fighter is always guaranteed to hit?
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 01:28 AM	Quite, simply, I would optimize Initiative to win such a ridiculous contest. A friend of mine had a straight Wizard that had something like +14 init at second level, and it just got higher from there. I'd get his advice. Then I'd probably win, unless the Fighter can come up with something better to optimize init. If buffs are allowed, then init doesn't even matter... the Wizard has won.
levitation 11-28-06, 01:30 AM	Why? Because the Fighter is always guaranteed to hit? 95 % chance with no pre buffs yeah, pretty much...5 percent critical mis, 5 percent critical it...I like my chances...
Seerow 11-28-06, 01:30 AM	Don't even need buffs. Craft Contingency is enough. "When I am attacked, cast dimension door". Fighter's turn is ruined, caster gets his turn, dominates. 95% chance with no pre buffs yeah, pretty much... Against standard monster manual monsters maybe. Against another character? Particularly a caster who doesn't want to be hit? No. Not likely. You're dealing with at the very least a 50% miss chance from displacement or similar alone, then you're dealing with an AC in the low 50s at the very least... Most fighter builds I see are around +40 attack bonus. That's another 50% miss chance, for your best attack. So you're at 50%/50%/25%/5%/5%... then halved due to the flat miss chance, makes it 25%/25%/12.5%/2.5%/2.5% Not happening.
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 01:31 AM	Don't even need buffs. Craft Contingency is enough. "When I am attacked, cast dimension door". Fighter's turn is ruined, caster gets his turn, dominates. True enough. I sort of excluded that when I said "no buffs."
Seerow 11-28-06, 01:34 AM	Craft Contingency lets you make items of contingency. Those aren't buffs, they're items that you craft and spend experience on. Saying the caster doesn't get that is like saying the Fighter doesn't get his armor unless he spends the 10 minutes putting the **** on in battle.
levitation 11-28-06, 01:34 AM	Quite, simply, I would optimize Initiative to win such a ridiculous contest. A friend of mine had a straight Wizard that had something like +14 init at second level, and it just got higher from there. I'd get his advice. Then I'd probably win, unless the Fighter can come up with something better to optimize init. If buffs are allowed, then init doesn't even matter... the Wizard has won. then I would as you what did he do other then have a high dex, and improved initiative, because i know of no other way how to optimize initiative...other than ToB and that not gonna work in pure fighter...
levitation 11-28-06, 01:36 AM	Craft Contingency lets you make items of contingency. Those aren't buffs, they're items that you craft and spend experience on. Saying the caster doesn't get that is like saying the Fighter doesn't get his armor unless he spends the 10 minutes putting the **** on in battle. in that fighter build it would be actually be better if the fighter went first and were buck naked, no armor check penalty to the jump skill and hey its gonna die in one hit so who gives? :D and if we are going with items, maximizing attack bonus isnt too hard...
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 01:38 AM	then I would as you what did he do other then have a high dex, and improved initiative, because i know of no other way how to optimize initiative...other than ToB and that not gonna work in pure fighter... I don't remember exactly, but he had a bunch of things. Let's see... I think he was an elf, so he had +2 dex. Then he put somethin' high into Dex (maybe his highest stat, though it might have been in Int). Then he got Improved Initiative. Then he got some familiar that gave a minor init bonus (from some supplement, I believe), then he took the Elf Wizard racial substitution level that doubles the flat bonus given by a familiar, then some other things I don't remember.
Seerow 11-28-06, 01:42 AM	in that fighter build it would be actually be better if the fighter went first and were buck naked, no armor check penalty to the jump skill and hey its gonna die in one hit so who gives? and if we are going with items, maximizing attack bonus isnt too hard... Not too hard huh? You have 760,000 GP. Go. At level 20 you're looking at at best: +20 BAB +12 Strength (maybe +13 as a half-orc) +5 Enhancement +1 Luck +4 Feats --------- +42 I feel like I'm forgetting something. Maybe a competence bonus from an Ioun Stone or something similar. But you won't get it too far beyond that without searching a bit. And remember, at lower levels (say the 16-18 I suggested) this gets worse. You won't have that last bit of strength til level 20. And inherent bonuses are ungodly expensive for characters under 20th level. (And cost a good chunk for them too!)
levitation 11-28-06, 01:56 AM	Not too hard huh? You have 760,000 GP. Go. At level 20 you're looking at at best: +20 BAB +12 Strength (maybe +13 as a half-orc) +5 Enhancement +1 Luck +4 Feats --------- +40 I feel like I'm forgetting something. Maybe a competence bonus from an Ioun Stone or something similar. But you won't get it too far beyond that without searching a bit. as much as i would like to but it is 1:55 am in pennsylvania, and I have get 'up' in 4:05 hours... but tob has some good stuff in it...besides 40 for one attack is not too shaby...some of the other attacks are going to hit, lightining recovery can help... goodnight, or should I say 'good morning'
magmer2 11-28-06, 08:18 AM	Not too hard huh? You have 760,000 GP. Go. At level 20 you're looking at at best: +20 BAB +12 Strength (maybe +13 as a half-orc) +5 Enhancement +1 Luck +4 Feats --------- +42 I feel like I'm forgetting something. Maybe a competence bonus from an Ioun Stone or something similar. But you won't get it too far beyond that without searching a bit. And remember, at lower levels (say the 16-18 I suggested) this gets worse. You won't have that last bit of strength til level 20. And inherent bonuses are ungodly expensive for characters under 20th level. (And cost a good chunk for them too!) A focused weapon for an additional +1. Also it maybe possible to PaO into a form that has a higher strenght.
Argaud 11-28-06, 12:48 PM	I feel like I'm forgetting something. Maybe a competence bonus from an Ioun Stone or something similar. But you won't get it too far beyond that without searching a bit. Hmm... magebane weapon for a +2? Charge for +2? There was some feat that gave more bonus when charging at the cost of more AC, right?
Throg 11-28-06, 12:54 PM	Hmm... magebane weapon for a +2? Charge for +2? There was some feat that gave more bonus when charging at the cost of more AC, right? The CW had a tactical feat that let you switch PA from To Hit to AC instead.
Argaud 11-28-06, 01:01 PM	The CW had a tactical feat that let you switch PA from To Hit to AC instead. That one vastly increases damage, but not to the to hit chance :) I think that it is pretty obvious for most of us that if the fighter wins the initiative and hits with the charge, the unbuffed wizard will die. But if the wizard wins the initiative and Timestops, the wizard will probably win.
Tokorona 11-28-06, 01:49 PM	It.. ummm... doesn't matter. It will not prove anything but build a > build b. This test was already tried, and the results didn;t matter anywhere.
levitation 11-28-06, 04:03 PM	It.. ummm... doesn't matter. It will not prove anything but build a > build b. This test was already tried, and the results didn;t matter anywhere. you cant prove too much with duel, first it depends on the dm and the stuff that he makes up, then it depends on your role playing style which some people chose to sacrifice, and then tactical strategies that are efficient against dm tactics, such a low level swarm monsters in multiple waves, and then pure damage...
boozerker 11-28-06, 05:55 PM	How about none of the combatants get a chance to buff? Introduce them "barebone", with just their natural abilities. Also, eliminate initiative problems by setting them enough distance apart. Also, set duels for level 5 duels, level 10 duels, level 15 duels, levl 20 duels. Don't set magic-user against fighter, they play different roles in a party. Instead, set them against one specific monster to see how each fares against it. Shapechangers should be restricted to "Poly" type spells and buff spells if battling vs. the fighter directly. Lastly, just stick to Core. That's what people complain about, the core fighter class. So pick challenges from the same book. My three cents
Argaud 11-28-06, 06:31 PM	Lastly, just stick to Core. That's what people complain about, the core fighter class. Oh man, if it was just that I could almost agree :)
Tisner44 11-28-06, 06:50 PM	The best way to do this is to not tell the creaters what the challenge is ahead of time. They need to make the characters to be able to handle any situation. Then after the characters are made, present the situations and see which one handles it best. Their should be no duels between the characters, that would be useless.
Belgian Waffle 11-28-06, 06:57 PM	you cant prove too much with duel, first it depends on the dm and the stuff that he makes up, then it depends on your role playing style which some people chose to sacrifice, and then tactical strategies that are efficient against dm tactics, such a low level swarm monsters in multiple waves, and then pure damage... This is exactly my stance on it. We need to get together and create a standardized gauntlet of encounters that can test how useful a class can be in a wide variety of situations. I would suggest that the encounters be made for a standard four-person party (standard being cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard). The player, with his build, would replace one of the four. From there, he runs the gauntlet with someone acting as DM (handling rolls, monsters, and the other party members. It would be best to standardize DM response as well). We'll have to set up some sort of system for grading each encounter. Speed, Efficiency, Party Status, effectiveness, etc... it will most likely depend on the encounter. Once the player has run through the gauntlet, we give him an overall grade. Encounters will need to cover all of the bases as far as party roles are considered. Fighting a swarm of low CR monsters, Fighting another party, Fighting a BBEG, Dealing with Traps, Diplomacy, gathering information, healing, buffs, etc, etc... we should be able to get a dozen or two. The only guideline to it is that it needs to be clear and concise what is expected out of the player. Like goal of the combat encounters are to kill enemies and keep the party alive. The non-combat encounters would vary, but should be easy enough. Example encounters : A) The Situation : The party is standing on the outside of a castle's walls. There are a pair of guards who are not allowing you into the castle. The Goal : Enter the castle. Bonus points for not harming the guards. Possible Solutions : Talk your way in using Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate. Searching for another way into the castle that isn't that well guarded and sneak in. Ignoring the guards and just walking in, which would most likely end in a fight. B) The Situation : The party is in a forest-type area and they're surrounded by a large group of gnolls. The Goal : Kill the Gnolls. Possible Solutions : Cast Magic Missile or hit faces with an axe. As for building the characters, they need to be done so as to accurately reflect a build up from level 1 to 20. That's pretty easy to do until you hit equipment... every other time I see this hot character build, most of what the build can do is based off of the character's equipment. That's not right. We're testing the characters themselves, and not their equipment (nor the player's ability to create and choose good equipment). So, that's something we need to think about. I guess run through the gauntlet in order and give the player an amount of gold to spend on items after each encounter so as to somewhat simulate the accumulation of gold during a campaign. Total gold received should be comparable to what's in the DMG. The problem with this is that if the player has knowledge of what's coming, he can prepare accordingly. So, some level of randomization of when the player encounters an encounter needs to be introduced... Hurm... This got pretty big pretty fast... I think comments are required before I keep going.
Eela6 11-28-06, 07:29 PM	Quite, simply, I would optimize Initiative to win such a ridiculous contest. A friend of mine had a straight Wizard that had something like +14 init at second level, and it just got higher from there. I'd get his advice. Then I'd probably win, unless the Fighter can come up with something better to optimize init. If buffs are allowed, then init doesn't even matter... the Wizard has won. That was me. The proper method is this. Step 1 - Play a Grey Elf Diviner. You get +2 dex, +2 Intellect. This is a good thing. On a 32-point buy, you can grab 18 dex, 12 constitution, and 20 intellect. This is good enough. Step 2 - Grab Improved Initiative as your first-level feat. Step 3 - Grab the Dragonfly Familiar [Dragon Magazine 31..3? - It doesn't apply to this contest, but it gives you +4 initiative.] Step 4- Take the Elf Substitution levels for level 3 - but NOT 1. You get to double the bonus of your familiar if it's within 5 feet. It gives you +8 Initiative, now. Step 5 - Cast Skittish Nerves when you get into battle. Step 6 - Grab Insightful Divination as your third-level feat [Complete Mage.] Cast some decent second-level Divination when you get the chance. If you don't have that many spell slots, you can take the Complete Mage super-specalization - you only give up two schools total, so you can afford to lose, say, Evocation and Necromancy. Step 7 - ? Step 8 - Profit! (Here defined as a +23 initiative modifier at level 3. If you can't use the Dragonfly, grab something that gives you hit points, decent saves, or the hawk [+17 Spot] instead - you'll still have +15 Initiative at third level. My favorite is the Weasel - go into Divine Oracle at seventh level, and by level 8 you've got Evasion and a +10 Reflex Save - without counting any items. Pop in a Shirt of Resistance +3 and Gloves of Dex +2 and you have a +14.) I think this should prove something about the relative strength of Wizards. Give me 'till twelfth level and I *should* be able to get +33 initiative and +30 hide [Defined as "You Won't Beat This."] Even if the Fighter *did* win, which wouldn't happen, it still wouldn't prove anything except that the Fighter player was a good optimizer and the Wizard player was not. Same thing with a Wizard win, except that a Wizard simply is more powerful and has more options, so it's far more likely. In Core Only, you can't do this, but in Core only a Fighter is even *more* screwed than he is here.
Qube 11-29-06, 02:00 AM	This is exactly my stance on it. We need to get together and create a standardized gauntlet of encounters that can test how useful a class can be in a wide variety of situations. I would suggest that the encounters be made for a standard four-person party (standard being cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard). i might have a suggestion about the other partymembers: - the NPC builds from the DMG - give them loot as though they wore PC's example: if you want to have the 5th level cleric - take the 5th level cleric from the NPC table - look how much gear a 5th level PC has (say X gp for example) - look that level of NPC gets X gp (say 7th level for example) - give your 5th level cleric the gear of a 7 th level => tada: a full fledges 5th level cleric partymember
Seerow 11-29-06, 01:04 PM	iirc the example PCs in the DMG are really underpowered. I haven't looked in a long time, but I know in one of the threads, it was complained that we should use those NPCs as a baseline for what a character should do, and there was complaining about it, because that set the standard very very low.
aelryinth 11-29-06, 02:44 PM	The characters in the DMG are NPC's, not PC's. They have NPC loot levels. They just have PC character levels. And, of course, they are not made with infinite splatbook access. ===Aelryinth
Grunthar 11-29-06, 03:38 PM	Hell, if this is just about dueling, and not party compatibility, you don't need a caster to kill the fighter. A Frenzied Berserker will eat a fighter for breakfast at any level, 7 or greater. Even if the fighter wins intiative, the FB trusts in his hit points to survive the first blow, and then rapes the fighter with a full attack.
Argaud 11-29-06, 04:03 PM	Hell, if this is just about dueling, and not party compatibility, you don't need a caster to kill the fighter. A Frenzied Berserker will eat a fighter for breakfast at any level, 7 or greater. Even if the fighter wins intiative, the FB trusts in his hit points to survive the first blow, and then rapes the fighter with a full attack. Do you realiza it is not even a challenge to inflict over 800hp of damage with a charge with a one-trick pony type fighter?
Belgian Waffle 11-29-06, 04:41 PM	iirc the example PCs in the DMG are really underpowered. I haven't looked in a long time, but I know in one of the threads, it was complained that we should use those NPCs as a baseline for what a character should do, and there was complaining about it, because that set the standard very very low. Actually, that's a fantastic reason as to why we should use them. We don't want these guys to be so optimized that they end up completing every encounter in the gauntlet without any help from the PC. The point of all this is to prove a build's abilities... and if it's constantly getting outshined by one of the DMG NPC's, who we already recognize as being sub-par, than that would really say something about the build. It also makes our job a little easier when creating encounters. They should be designed with the base party (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) in mind so as they could solve it to give us a control for the experiment. Plus all their stats are right there for us to see. It also gives us a way of calculating how people would choose equipment. They just need to pick stuff that is about on par with what these are using. Yes, their equipment sucks, but the point of this is to test out the build and not the equipment.
Molitor 11-30-06, 12:22 AM	I've decided not to go through with this.
levitation 11-30-06, 12:28 AM	I've decided not to go through with this. ofcourse, it be too much work and organizing it would be very hard...I dont blame you...
Grunthar 11-30-06, 10:32 AM	Do you realiza it is not even a challenge to inflict over 800hp of damage with a charge with a one-trick pony type fighter? While I admit to some ignorance of min/maxing high level fighters, that sounds pretty dumb to me. 800 points, eh? Solo-ing the Tarrasque ought to be no problem... Because that's a pretty good one trick to have. Any DM worth his salt wouldn't allow whatever rules rapes might permit that.
dark_nony 11-30-06, 11:19 AM	A fighter an be a good class (hardly but yes) with some power gaming, lets face it people. A Mage with core rols can damage level D 6 with a fire ball, a Fighter damages abute 1d8 (or d12...) + samthing weak. A party need a fighter only to defend the classes like the mage, ther are still other classes thet are better at it like a barbrian then does a rage and gets more hp but his already good HP then are D12. Personaly i dont like it for also... almost half of his levels are dead!
meta 11-30-06, 11:30 AM	This is exactly my stance on it. We need to get together and create a standardized gauntlet of encounters that can test how useful a class can be in a wide variety of situations. I would suggest that the encounters be made for a standard four-person party (standard being cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard). The player, with his build, would replace one of the four. From there, he runs the gauntlet with someone acting as DM (handling rolls, monsters, and the other party members. It would be best to standardize DM response as well). We'll have to set up some sort of system for grading each encounter. Speed, Efficiency, Party Status, effectiveness, etc... it will most likely depend on the encounter. Once the player has run through the gauntlet, we give him an overall grade. ... more good stuff snipped in the interests of space... I totally agree with this idea. I think it would be best to post it as a new thread though, since it really isn't about "fighter vs X", it is about creating a standard set of encounters that can be used as a baseline for assessing not only individual class builds, but entire party builds. Belgian, post a new thread and I'll definitely participate. I propose a Cyro/Pyro 12-headed hydra as one of the 10th level challenges. CR 13 (making it pretty scary for a 10th level party), and designed to require coordination and cooperation between party members.
Argaud 11-30-06, 12:26 PM	While I admit to some ignorance of min/maxing high level fighters, that sounds pretty dumb to me. 800 points, eh? Solo-ing the Tarrasque ought to be no problem... Because that's a pretty good one trick to have. Any DM worth his salt wouldn't allow whatever rules rapes might permit that. That is one of the reasons why I am baffled at the constant barrages of 'fighter suck' threads. Sure, it is not always possible to charge, so not every round it is possible to do 800 hp of damage. But even if it only works -once- each battle, it sounds like a good deal to me! As for the build: Check the feats Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. Check the Valorous trait (cost +1) of a weapon. Believe me when I say that getting a full attack after a charge is not only possible, but quite easy. There are several magical items, and there is a 3-steps feat chain too. It is possible to turn in a charge, with 2 feats.
Belgian Waffle 11-30-06, 12:33 PM	Belgian, post a new thread and I'll definitely participate. I refuse. I've tried organizing these things before and I will lose interest in it about half way through. Someone with a longer attention span than mine is going to have to do it.
Seerow 11-30-06, 01:38 PM	Believe me when I say that getting a full attack after a charge is not only possible, but quite easy. There are several magical items, and there is a 3-steps feat chain too. What feat chain is this?
Argaud 11-30-06, 01:49 PM	What feat chain is this? Martial Study: sometigerclaw maneuver, Martial Study: someothertigerclaw maneuver, Martial Study: Pouncing Charge. Anyone willing to burn 3 feats can take it at level 18. Characters with Martial Adept classes can get it earlier and use it more often, of course.
Seerow 11-30-06, 01:55 PM	Hrm, I thought Pouncing Charge was 6th level or higher. Ah well, my copy of ToB isn't in the house right now, and I don't feel like running to look it up. Still, you get it once per encounter. Why not just play a Warblade instead, save yourself the feats?
Argaud 11-30-06, 02:15 PM	Hrm, I thought Pouncing Charge was 6th level or higher. Ah well, my copy of ToB isn't in the house right now, and I don't feel like running to look it up. Still, you get it once per encounter. Why not just play a Warblade instead, save yourself the feats? It is level 5. Indeed, I also feel Warblade or Swordsage (not sure the second) are stronger meleers than fighters. However they are a bit feat-challenged, see: You also need the feats Leap Attack, which requires Power Attack. And Shock Trooper, wich requires Power Attack and Bull Rush. A Cleric wanting to become a super-charger needs to burn all the 7 feats on those. If you want to be able to turn during the charge, which obviously makes the character far better to setup the charge, Fleet of Foot, and Run, are needed. A cleric simply can't get them. The martial adepts can but they are left with just one another feat (two for the Warblade, Run can be taken as one of their bonus feats). Then you are going to want Elusive Target, that requires Dodge and Mobility. Otherwise you may get PA-ed to death. Particularly if your target is still alive. The Martial Adept can't take those. The fighter still has 6 feats. For 6, he can take the whole Supremacy tree and stand with a +4 to hit, +6 damage over the warblade, and a bunch of other stuff. Or he can go after Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit and something else (this makes really, really unappealing to attack him after the charge - RG will have him hitting back for over 100 hp damage). Even a level 20 Warblade would better be very, very careful around that fighter.
OneWinged4ngel 11-30-06, 04:08 PM	I've decided not to go through with this. So can this thread please die now? Let's try to keep this Fighter stuff in less than 15 threads. Thanks.
Kursk 11-30-06, 04:50 PM	Slightly off topic. I remember being in a large PC to PC "duel" back in the 1st Ed days. Maybe 10-13 people in a large muti-terrain arena. Level was 15 - 18th. It came down to a fighter & a wizard. The fighter won. These weren't characters rolled up for the event but characters that had been played from 1st level on up so was quite well played. Wonder if the outcome would be similar in 3.X. Somehow I don't think so based on playing both versions since release.
Belgian Waffle 11-30-06, 04:56 PM	Anyone who plays multi player magic knows that any sort of Multiplayer Chaos game like that ends up being more of a contest of Diplomacy and Luck than skill or strength. They're actually worse than 1 on 1 duels for determining strengths or weaknesses (other than that you can get taken down when three other equal level PC's are trying to kill you at the same time).
Kursk 11-30-06, 06:09 PM	Anyone who plays multi player magic knows that any sort of Multiplayer Chaos game like that ends up being more of a contest of Diplomacy and Luck than skill or strength. Actually, there was no "diplomacy" involved at all. No one was interacting in that fashion. It came down to tactical ability coupled with knowing how to "fight" your particular character and the strengths/weaknesses.
Belgian Waffle 11-30-06, 07:25 PM	It is all diplomacy. If I attack person A, then person A is going to be mad at me and he will attack back. If I happen to hit person B, C, and D with a fireball, then persons B, C, and D are all going to try and kill me. They might smack each other around after I'm dead or mortally wounded, but I'm not likely to care at that point either. That is the kind of diplomacy I am talking about. You don't need words when your actions are speaking for you. And even without any form of diplomacy, it then goes to luck. Person B could be the one character in the arena who could take me out without breaking a sweat, and it wouldn't matter because Person C took him out. Or maybe my build can easily kill Persons E-G and they just happen to be the only people I fight through the entire thing. Then you can take that situation where I threw a fireball at three other participants. Person H just happens to be watching me get my ass kicked and waits just long enough to throw a weird into the middle of the group to kill all four of us. It doesn't mean that he's got a better character, it just means that he was in the right place at the right time. I can go on and on about this, but it all comes down to the Arena battle being too chaotic a situation to be useful for judging an individual's build.
Kursk 11-30-06, 07:35 PM	It is all diplomacy. If I attack person A, then person A is going to be mad at me and he will attack back. If I happen to hit person B, C, and D with a fireball, then persons B, C, and D are all going to try and kill me. You may be right about being able to judge. However, the people I played with didn't get "mad" and react in that way. It was more about tactics. Probably due to the player experience and maturity. All in all you're right about it not being really useful in determining much about different builds. It was a better measure of tactical ability of individual players.
Qube 12-01-06, 02:00 AM	800 points, eh? Solo-ing the Tarrasque ought to be no problem... don't you need wish to kill the Tarrasque?