Altering the rogue for combat skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altering the rogue for combat skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aramil_silverwind
12-05-04, 05:24 PM In an upcomming campaign, I'm planning on playing a Rogue/Fighter going for the Duelist PrC (I think that swashbuckler is a useless class and didn't need to be created, as anyone that dosn't have a phobia of multiclassing can do it just fine - I intend for this character to prove that sentiment) and I want to know if a modification to the rogue class is balanced or not.

If I where to take away the Trapfinding and Trapsense class abilities, as well as Decipher Script, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device as class skills - would it be balanced to give the Rogue d8 HD, or Full BAB progression? I'm also considering knocking the skill points down to 6+INT if that helps any.

I'm hoping to play the party's 'Tank' because fighter and duelist both have d10, so I don't need those too much. And the d6 HD is really a kick in the groin to a melee character.

Can anyone help me here?
salamander
12-05-04, 05:55 PM (I think that swashbuckler is a useless class and didn't need to be created, as anyone that dosn't have a phobia of multiclassing can do it just fine - I intend for this character to prove that sentiment)Either it can be done just fine, in which case you don't need to adjust the existing classes, or it can't - no offense, but your question suggests the opposite of what you're intending to prove.

Anyway, I don't think either the loss of BAB or the loss of hp or even both really invalidates the multiclass character (there, that's an argument in favour of your hypothesis, or at least my supporting vote ;) ). What multiclass ratio were you thinking of?
SD
12-05-04, 06:11 PM According to Unearthed Arcana, you can trade the fighter's bonus feats for the rogue's sneak attack progression. Also, you can trade medium and heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and the fighter's 1st-level feat for 4+Int skill points, Urban Tracking as an option for a bonus feat, and Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand as class skills. Putting these two variants together give you nearly full sneak attack, the best BAB, d10 HD, and reasonable skills for a rogueish tank. The bummer here is that Perform and Tumble are not class skills, meaning you'd have to go to 7th-level before you can cross-class them that high.

For reference, what could possibly compel you to voluntarily make yourself a duelist?
Aramil_silverwind
12-06-04, 06:52 PM I don't mind waiting until 7th, however I was really looking forward to Evasion and the Rogue Special Abilities.

I would be willing to settle for 8HD and 3/4 BAB progression, which my DM has already agreed upon. He's a firm believer of the power of UMD.. so he has no problem with it.
Pallin Rahl
12-06-04, 07:04 PM Your original post seems at odds with itself. ;)

You feel a specific class is worthless, because you could achieve the same effect via a multiclass. A fair starting point for discussion.

You then go on to modify base classes to achieve your goal.

:confused:

My advice, either:

Roll a Swashbuckler, as that's similar to what you're shooting for... save the hassle heh

OR

Achieve a similar result by multiclassing Rogue/Fighter/Duelist...
NO Modifications are necessary to achieve your desired results.

YMMV
Aramil_silverwind
12-06-04, 07:34 PM After looking at my post, I think you guys are right.. I'm not proving anything by altering a class. I think I'll prolly go strait with the Rogue/Fighter/Duelist idea... no mods.

Thanks for pointing out how dumb my post was... its a good idea, but I don't want to mess thigns around cuz that ruins the whole point.

Thanks Guys.
Tony Vargas
12-06-04, 08:32 PM If I where to take away the Trapfinding and Trapsense class abilities, as well as Decipher Script, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device as class skills - would it be balanced to give the Rogue d8 HD, or Full BAB progression? I'm also considering knocking the skill points down to 6+INT if that helps any. Before you increase the Rogues HD, you'd have to take away his evasion or uncanny dodge or stealth skills - these are things that keep him from /needing/ high hps as much. Full BAB + Sneak Attack is probably a bad idea. It probably wouldn't really hurt with the character you have in mind, but a 20/15/10/5 full attack of +10d6 SA's? Ick.

Taking away class skills is pretty minor, as few characters ever put ranks towards all thier class skills, and, multiclassing with fighter, you really won't have the opportunity to max out more than a handful of them. Reducing skill points is meaningful, though. I think the d8 HD is more reasonable than the full BAB, conceptually (and probably better for you, too, if you're not a terribly rogue-heavy build).

I'm hoping to play the party's 'Tank' because fighter and duelist both have d10, so I don't need those too much. And the d6 HD is really a kick in the groin to a melee character. Oddly enough, Barb levels might help, too, if you can settle on a legal progression that fits. d12 HD, and also gives you uncanny dodge. Just sticking to a small number of Rogue levels can help with hps & BAB - no more than 4, and you've only lost 1 BAB, and 4 hps (7 if you choose 1st level rogue over 1st level fighter).
hawktalisman
12-07-04, 02:47 PM Hey, Aramil!

Personaly, I play multi class charecters probably eighty percent of the time. The next time I play a single class charecter it will probably be a swashbuckler. I think it is a great class. One of the problems with trying to achieve special and individual results by multi-classing is that sooner or later you start to run out of plausible backgrounds as to why you started out as a monk, then changed to Paladin, then took levels in rogue..........
If you just lived your life as a swashbuckler, then it is a lot easier to come up with a believable background.
But thats just my opinion.
DragonsArt
12-07-04, 03:49 PM Dont' bother with fighter, go Duelist. ESPECIALLY if you have high INT. At first level, you get Weapon Finese and at 3rd level you get Intuitive Strike which allows you to add your INT to damage rolls PLUS your STR. If you have a 16 or high INT, it's better than Specialization, because it applies to any number of weapons... not one specific one. Plus, by increasing your INT, you increase your damage.

To compare:

1st fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +2 FORT, +1 BAB, bonus feat
2nd fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +1 FORT, +1 BAB, bonus feat
3rd fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +1 RELF, +1 WILL, +1 BAB

1st swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +2 FORT, +1 BAB, Weapon Finese
2nd swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +1 FORT, +1 BAB, +1 REFLEX
3rd swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +1 RELF, +1 WILL, +1 BAB, Intuitive

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aramil_silverwind 12-05-04, 05:24 PM	In an upcomming campaign, I'm planning on playing a Rogue/Fighter going for the Duelist PrC (I think that swashbuckler is a useless class and didn't need to be created, as anyone that dosn't have a phobia of multiclassing can do it just fine - I intend for this character to prove that sentiment) and I want to know if a modification to the rogue class is balanced or not. If I where to take away the Trapfinding and Trapsense class abilities, as well as Decipher Script, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device as class skills - would it be balanced to give the Rogue d8 HD, or Full BAB progression? I'm also considering knocking the skill points down to 6+INT if that helps any. I'm hoping to play the party's 'Tank' because fighter and duelist both have d10, so I don't need those too much. And the d6 HD is really a kick in the groin to a melee character. Can anyone help me here?
salamander 12-05-04, 05:55 PM	(I think that swashbuckler is a useless class and didn't need to be created, as anyone that dosn't have a phobia of multiclassing can do it just fine - I intend for this character to prove that sentiment)Either it can be done just fine, in which case you don't need to adjust the existing classes, or it can't - no offense, but your question suggests the opposite of what you're intending to prove. Anyway, I don't think either the loss of BAB or the loss of hp or even both really invalidates the multiclass character (there, that's an argument in favour of your hypothesis, or at least my supporting vote ;) ). What multiclass ratio were you thinking of?
SD 12-05-04, 06:11 PM	According to Unearthed Arcana, you can trade the fighter's bonus feats for the rogue's sneak attack progression. Also, you can trade medium and heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and the fighter's 1st-level feat for 4+Int skill points, Urban Tracking as an option for a bonus feat, and Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand as class skills. Putting these two variants together give you nearly full sneak attack, the best BAB, d10 HD, and reasonable skills for a rogueish tank. The bummer here is that Perform and Tumble are not class skills, meaning you'd have to go to 7th-level before you can cross-class them that high. For reference, what could possibly compel you to voluntarily make yourself a duelist?
Aramil_silverwind 12-06-04, 06:52 PM	I don't mind waiting until 7th, however I was really looking forward to Evasion and the Rogue Special Abilities. I would be willing to settle for 8HD and 3/4 BAB progression, which my DM has already agreed upon. He's a firm believer of the power of UMD.. so he has no problem with it.
Pallin Rahl 12-06-04, 07:04 PM	Your original post seems at odds with itself. ;) You feel a specific class is worthless, because you could achieve the same effect via a multiclass. A fair starting point for discussion. You then go on to modify base classes to achieve your goal. :confused: My advice, either: Roll a Swashbuckler, as that's similar to what you're shooting for... save the hassle heh OR Achieve a similar result by multiclassing Rogue/Fighter/Duelist... NO Modifications are necessary to achieve your desired results. YMMV
Aramil_silverwind 12-06-04, 07:34 PM	After looking at my post, I think you guys are right.. I'm not proving anything by altering a class. I think I'll prolly go strait with the Rogue/Fighter/Duelist idea... no mods. Thanks for pointing out how dumb my post was... its a good idea, but I don't want to mess thigns around cuz that ruins the whole point. Thanks Guys.
Tony Vargas 12-06-04, 08:32 PM	If I where to take away the Trapfinding and Trapsense class abilities, as well as Decipher Script, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device as class skills - would it be balanced to give the Rogue d8 HD, or Full BAB progression? I'm also considering knocking the skill points down to 6+INT if that helps any. Before you increase the Rogues HD, you'd have to take away his evasion or uncanny dodge or stealth skills - these are things that keep him from /needing/ high hps as much. Full BAB + Sneak Attack is probably a bad idea. It probably wouldn't really hurt with the character you have in mind, but a 20/15/10/5 full attack of +10d6 SA's? Ick. Taking away class skills is pretty minor, as few characters ever put ranks towards all thier class skills, and, multiclassing with fighter, you really won't have the opportunity to max out more than a handful of them. Reducing skill points is meaningful, though. I think the d8 HD is more reasonable than the full BAB, conceptually (and probably better for you, too, if you're not a terribly rogue-heavy build). I'm hoping to play the party's 'Tank' because fighter and duelist both have d10, so I don't need those too much. And the d6 HD is really a kick in the groin to a melee character. Oddly enough, Barb levels might help, too, if you can settle on a legal progression that fits. d12 HD, and also gives you uncanny dodge. Just sticking to a small number of Rogue levels can help with hps & BAB - no more than 4, and you've only lost 1 BAB, and 4 hps (7 if you choose 1st level rogue over 1st level fighter).
hawktalisman 12-07-04, 02:47 PM	Hey, Aramil! Personaly, I play multi class charecters probably eighty percent of the time. The next time I play a single class charecter it will probably be a swashbuckler. I think it is a great class. One of the problems with trying to achieve special and individual results by multi-classing is that sooner or later you start to run out of plausible backgrounds as to why you started out as a monk, then changed to Paladin, then took levels in rogue.......... If you just lived your life as a swashbuckler, then it is a lot easier to come up with a believable background. But thats just my opinion.
DragonsArt 12-07-04, 03:49 PM	Dont' bother with fighter, go Duelist. ESPECIALLY if you have high INT. At first level, you get Weapon Finese and at 3rd level you get Intuitive Strike which allows you to add your INT to damage rolls PLUS your STR. If you have a 16 or high INT, it's better than Specialization, because it applies to any number of weapons... not one specific one. Plus, by increasing your INT, you increase your damage. To compare: 1st fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +2 FORT, +1 BAB, bonus feat 2nd fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +1 FORT, +1 BAB, bonus feat 3rd fighter - d10, 2 skill points, +1 RELF, +1 WILL, +1 BAB 1st swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +2 FORT, +1 BAB, Weapon Finese 2nd swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +1 FORT, +1 BAB, +1 REFLEX 3rd swashbuckler - d10, 4 skill points, +1 RELF, +1 WILL, +1 BAB, Intuitive