Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tombowings 01-12-08, 12:27 AM	I'm thinking the following list for a new campaign setting I'm writing. I was looking for classes that everyone could actively participate with and have an active roll in the party. The classes I was think of are as follows: Warblade: Replaces Fighter and Barbarian Swordsage: Replaces Rogue and Monk Crusader: Replaces Paladin Sublime Bard (still a work in progress): replaces bard Sublime Ranger: Replaces Ranger Artificer Wizard Archivist: Replaces Cleric and Druid I'm curious to know what effects these classes may have on gameplay.
dman11235 01-12-08, 12:45 AM	Warblade replaces fighter but not barbarian, and swordsage replaces monk but not rogue. Oh, and in case you are interested the crusader replaces the paladin and knight. Really though, you don't need to do this. It's already been done aside from the archivist thing (Cleric and Druid are still powerful enough (heheh) that they didn't need a boost). And I find nothing wrong with either the ranger or bard so they didn't need replacing. Now that's just power reasons (also sublime ranger and bard just don't work, I'm sorry). The ToB basically upgraded the fighter, monk, and paladin into the martial adept classes, effectively getting rid of the former, while retaining flavor. Now to answer you question: it will have a huge effect on gameplay if you only allow these classes. Not a huge power level difference, that will change little, but it will feel different than if you allowed all classes.
JaronK 01-12-08, 04:39 AM	Warblade replaces fighter but not barbarian, and swordsage replaces monk but not rogue. Oh, and in case you are interested the crusader replaces the paladin and knight. Why can't Warblades replace Barbarians? Just take a lot of Tiger Claw manuevers and go to town. Sure, you can't do the Frenzied Berserker Power Attack of doom, but they can certainly fill that party role. Swordsages can't replace Rogues, because they lack trapfinding and don't have enough skills. Beguilers could replace Rogues successfully, though. However, you've got three of the Big 5 on your list, which is going to be difficult for power reasons... the ToB classes are solid, but they can't hold up against those guys terribly well in the late game. For balance reasons, I'd honestly drop Wizard, Archivist, and Artificer, and replace them with Sorcerer and Favoured Soul. That should be much closer in power level to everyone else. JaronK
dman11235 01-12-08, 11:23 AM	They can't replace barbarians because barbarians are nature warriors. They also mechanically are powerful enough that they don't need it, and rage is just too different. The PrCs capable of being reached by them cannot by a warblade.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-12-08, 01:11 PM	Might as well replace the wizard with the blue mage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=137596) while you're at it.
JaronK 01-12-08, 01:43 PM	They can't replace barbarians because barbarians are nature warriors. And a psychotic Tiger Claw Warblade isn't? Heck, throw in a few Stone Dragon moves for DR and smashing through walls, and you're good to go. "Savage Nature Warrior" is quite specifically one of the things Warblades can do. They also mechanically are powerful enough that they don't need it, and rage is just too different. The PrCs capable of being reached by them cannot by a warblade. Well, Warblades don't have the exact same mechanics as a Barbarian, but they fill similar roles (high damage psychopath, by taking the right schools). Swordsages don't get flurry and Crusaders can't qualify for some Paladin PrCs, but that doesn't mean those two classes can't replace the party roles of Monks and Paladins. JaronK
Eldritch_Lord 01-12-08, 02:37 PM	1) They can't replace barbarians because barbarians are nature warriors. 2) They also mechanically are powerful enough that they don't need it, and rage is just too different. 3) The PrCs capable of being reached by them cannot by a warblade. 1) "Nature warriors" is fluff, and not entirely accurate. You can easily reflavor a given warblade to made it more nature-y. 2) As Tempest Stormwind has shown, the warblade and barbarian are almost exactly on a par with each other when the barbarian is raging, so (A) without his rage being always on, the barbarian is very slightly behind and (B) rage is just a Str, Con, and Will boost usually with fatigue at the end. 3) If you're changing around available classes, you can easily mess with requirements; besides, most if not all of the PrCs a barbarian can enter that a warblade can't are meant to improve the barbarian's class features; if you exclude the barbarian, there is no further need for them. ------------------------------------- I'd say replace wizard with sorcerer and archivist with favored soul, like JaronK said; also, I would suggest adding the Warlock to your list of allowed classes because (A) it can handle UMD and item creation, like the artificer, though it isn't as uber as the artificer, (B) all his abilities are at-will, so you don't need to worry about refreshing maneuvers or resting for spells, and (C) he's on a par with the others balance-wise without duplicating either the sorcerer or favored soul specialties.
JaronK 01-12-08, 05:17 PM	While you're at it, throw in Binders. There's a reason they keep being mentioned in the thread about best class design. JaronK
CmdrCorsiken 01-12-08, 05:32 PM	Now to answer you question: it will have a huge effect on gameplay if you only allow these classes. Not a huge power level difference, that will change little, but it will feel different than if you allowed all classes. A different "feel" seems to be exactly the goal in selecting these classes. If the campaign setting being created needs a somewhat narrow scope, then making such choices is good way of accomplishing this. I do something similar in the campaign world I run. The various nations have certain classes & variants associated with their culture. This creates a coherent theme to the characters that come from the same area. If I were to run a campaign that is limited in scoope to one particular nation, the class (and PrC) options would be appropriately limited -- not strictly limited, mind you (there's always room for the exceptional foreigner, after all), but generally so.
tombowings 01-12-08, 05:38 PM	Alright, Here is a little more information about the setting and classes: The campaign will use only legacy-esque magic items, all of which will have to be found from adventuring, but do not require feast and gold to use (they will grow in power as characters do). Magic items will be in no way available to by. Magic is left over energy from when the Material Plane was created and very uncommon and unnatural to use. It is rare and dangerous to use in some areas. The use of magic may have mutation effects that effect the caster, those around the spell being cast, and/or the target. Therefore, magic is going to be used rarely. Scrolls cannot be purchased, but must be found. Most of the population is very frightened of magic. I've modified the list of classes, based on everyones feedback, as shown below: Warblade: Replaces Fighter and Barbarian. I'm adding survival as a class skill. Swordsage: Replaces Rogue and Monk. Adding a trapfinding variant that modifies the skill list and adds trapfinding. Crusader: Replaces Paladin Wizard: are the most common spell-caster, and still very very very rare. They gain most of their spell from adventuring the ruined academies. Artificer: Very modified. They are wizards who wish to learn the secrets of magic items and strive to relearn the secrets of their creation. Archivist: There are no gods that grand spells. Therefore, the druid and cleric make little sense. The Archivist, in this setting, is just another kind of wizard, but manipulates different fields of energy. Binder: Cause I love them and they can be made to fit the setting (just not sure how yet). All PrC are unavailable. As I hate players trying to use them for optimization. not that that is a bad thing, but I would rather have characters that are very organic and not a predetermined build.
dman11235 01-12-08, 08:13 PM	But, but, no PrC?...It makes me sad... I use them for flavor and power. Especially Fist of the Forest. It's flavorful AND powerful! Anyway what I meant by "feel different" was that it will seem to be on a whole new power level, and will play greatly different from normal. It will take getting used to, and without PrCs and with very low magic and no divine* it'll be even worse. The difference that is. I'd highly recommend not banning PrCs, because sometimes it's just what you want to make your character and represent the flavor you want, and by sometimes I mean most of the time. *Divine casters don't need to get their powers from deities, especially druids. Here's a quote from my sig that is quite appropriate to this situation: They all shoot flaming death because they're so utterly convinced that they can shoot flaming death, the universe just gives up and agrees. You will note how it's not the gods that are granting spells, the gods can only cast the domain spells after all. And need I point out the cleric variant for no deity in the PHB?
tombowings 01-12-08, 08:30 PM	But, but, no PrC?...It makes me sad... I use them for flavor and power. Especially Fist of the Forest. It's flavorful AND powerful! Anyway what I meant by "feel different" was that it will seem to be on a whole new power level, and will play greatly different from normal. It will take getting used to, and without PrCs and with very low magic and no divine* it'll be even worse. The difference that is. I'd highly recommend not banning PrCs, because sometimes it's just what you want to make your character and represent the flavor you want, and by sometimes I mean most of the time. We usually play core only (as the only other book our group owns is Tome of Battle, and that's only me). They won't be much to miss. I, also, have a few up my sleeve that they will gain access to during the campaign. The idea of that was to keep players from planning their characters out, which is not bad, I just don't like to see a 20 level build for a 1st level character. I to see characters that are organically made: Level 1 - Fighter 1: Beginning adventurer, picked up his father's sword to defend the town from an ambush. Level 2 - Fighter 1/ranger 1: The Adventure took him deep into the forest and he began to learn the tricks of the trade of surviving in outdoor environments. Level 3 - Fighter 2/Ranger 1: Joined and trained with a group of mercenaries he met on the way to the capital. Level 4 - Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Monk 1: Was betrayed by the mercenaries. Wounded and dying, he hobbled to the nearest encampment he would find: a monastery. During which he was taught to fight unarmed and mediate. This was a little an exaggerated example, but is what I expect: for the adventure to change the characters goals, character, and motivations. Divine casters don't need to get their powers from deities, especially druids. Here's a quote from my sig that is quite appropriate to this situation: You will note how it's not the gods that are granting spells, the gods can only cast the domain spells after all. And need I point out the cleric variant for no deity in the PHB? I have nothing against character's not worshiping a god, but it just doesn't fit the setting: all magic of any kind was lost and/or destroyed. Cleric and/or druids would ruin this feel (I think).
Druss_of_The_Sword 01-12-08, 08:41 PM	if there is no magic kill the elves. its what i did. boy what a ruckus it caused. especially since my brother(whos in the campaign) is a huge elf fan. to hell with elves. pointy eared little freaks.
tombowings 01-12-08, 08:52 PM	if there is no magic kill the elves. its what i did. boy what a ruckus it caused. especially since my brother(whos in the campaign) is a huge elf fan. to hell with elves. pointy eared little freaks. Here is what I did for elves: Elves were the first race to learn the secrets of the arcane arts and they are the only races long-lived enough to remember the old Rynith Empire. Before the Spell-Plague, elves tended to hold positions of high esteem as arcane advisers and inventors. When the Spell-plague hit, the elven way of life crashed before their eyes, devastated, elven populations dwindled. Very few elves have survived the since those days; their attachment to the arcane made them susceptible to its mutations. Orcs were the outcome of those mutations :D
dman11235 01-12-08, 08:55 PM	My problem with that organic character feel is that sometimes the way the campaign takes you produces unplayable characters. I like there to be a set place that I'm aiming for. Maybe a couple different paths, but I do like planning it all out ahead of time, to make my character fairly powerful, and to know what I'm shooting for with RPing. Take my barbarian for example. I decided that for this campaign (it's going on now, but I had to drop out), I would break away from my normal high AC high saves characters and play a strength based fighter for once (I like monks. I like them a lot.). Now, during character creation (starting at 2) I decided that I rather liked the Bear Warrior PrC, and came up with the back story of being raised by bears. Then one thing lead to another and I ended up settling on a build of barbarian 2/monk 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 4/x 3. This represents my strive to become more like my "parents" as I train, and then after discovering shapechanging taking that further, and the monk is there for two reasons: power (unarmed damage and evasion) and to be a champion of nature (also for FotF). Things I have as options for the x are three more monk levels or Witch Slayer 2/fighter 1. The witch slayer if I grow to hate binders or possessors. I ended up at level 6 with him before I left, but I will finish him out eventually. I have a natural progression and it was planned out. If I don't plan this out however, I wouldn't take the prereq feats or skill points, they'd be used for other things. That's why I do it.
tombowings 01-12-08, 09:01 PM	If I don't plan this out however, I wouldn't take the prereq feats or skill points, they'd be used for other things. That's why I do it. Thats why I banned PrC, I don't like the Prerequisites to get in the way of character development. Instead, I tend to tailor a PrC to the character. At level 5, the player and I talk about the character and develop a class that makes the character playable. Nothing against what you like to do, our group just doesn't really enjoy it as much as some. In a campaign I am currently playing in, there is a Fighter/Barbarian/Modified Drunken Master. She really wanted to play a drunken master (mainly for the drunken bit), but her character would never take levels of monk. So she and the DM talked about it am modified the PrC for her.
Druss_of_The_Sword 01-12-08, 09:06 PM	what about the gnomes? and i still say you should kill off the thrice damned elves
tombowings 01-12-08, 09:10 PM	what about the gnomes? and i still say you should kill off the thrice damned elves I haven't gotten to then, which is sad, cause I actually like them (I like elves too though). I think I'll change their mechanics a little and have them be the original artificers.
The_Mad_Linguist 01-12-08, 10:37 PM	It is rare and dangerous to use in some areas. The use of magic may have mutation effects that effect the caster, those around the spell being cast, and/or the target. Therefore, magic is going to be used rarely. Scrolls cannot be purchased, but must be found That's works even better for the blue mage. No gaurantees of learning from scrolls, so you have to seek out another spellcaster even if you can find a scroll. Plus, mutagenic effects on the target are now the *only* way for arcane spellcasters to learn spells. Add in cool flavory mutations depending on which spells are known at the moment, and you're good.
tombowings 01-13-08, 03:38 PM	I'm not sure I like the way it is implemented. Spells will only mutate is specific areas. I'll post a champaign introduction so everyone can have a better idea how things will play-out (I used a Eberron as a baseline, so the first paragraph has a reference to it). Before the Spell-Plague, Rynith was covered by the vast Rynith Empire. It was once a place of magical discovery, where arcane energy infused the landscape and greatly influenced society and industry. The arcane arts were able to establish great cities, skyscraping castles, elemental-powered coaches and carriages, and all manner of enchanted conveniences. It lit the streets, allowed for long distance communication, and safe passage between cities. Magic was the innovative spark that drove the empire. However, that all changed when the arcane energies became so distorted in their nature that they could no longer return to their natural state after being manipulated. Instead, magic lingered, creeping and spreading through the land. Only after its unforeseen effects presented themselves did even the greatest of wizards realize what had happened. The unstable arcane energies began to mutate all those who came in contact with the Spell-Plague. As the Spell-Plague began to spread, the Rynith Empire crumbled. The magic had held the empire together for hundreds of years would be its undoing. Within two hundred years, Rynith was completely devastated. Most of the land was uninhabitable, mutating those who dared adventuring into its depths. The few that survived the Spell-Plague bonded together in loose tribes that have grown slowly for the part eight-hundred and one years. It is the year 801, in the 5th age of the world, and the spell-plague is just now starting to die down. Arcane magic is back on the rise, but in a modest amount, most of the old teachings and secrets are still completely unknown. Rynith’s tribal settlements are just beginning to trade with one another again, and there is an increased amount of immigration. Rynith is opening up; the secrets of the olden days are just dangers away from those willing to put a life and limb on the edge.