Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Whisper_Swiftblade 02-13-08, 08:47 PM	I am not realy sure this is the correct place for this... In the PHII the druid is given the option to trade in his wildshape, and animal companion in exchange for an ability that let's you turn into a number or generalised forms that don't seem that great to me. (I would elaborate, but I am pretty sure WoTC does not like that) So those of you familiar with the ability, is it worth it? If so why?
Enigmis 02-13-08, 09:01 PM	It's definitely not worth it. Some dms use the shapeshift variant as a nerf to druids (they are still viable after this). It is far weaker than wild shape + animal companion.
Erhnam1982 02-14-08, 12:44 AM	I am not realy sure this is the correct place for this... In the PHII the druid is given the option to trade in his wildshape, and animal companion in exchange for an ability that let's you turn into a number or generalised forms that don't seem that great to me. (I would elaborate, but I am pretty sure WoTC does not like that) So those of you familiar with the ability, is it worth it? If so why? No, it's not worth it. A lot of people use it to 'balance' (nerf) the druid. The only reason to take this is if you want to nerf yourself. Wildshape by itself is far, far more powerful.
Metafictional 02-14-08, 12:52 AM	On the other hand, it prevents new players to the Druid class from having to pore over Monster Manuals finding the right animal for the job, it doesn't force you to read over the Polymorph rules closely to figure out what you do, and do not get, from an animal form, it bases the stats of your form on your ability scores (imagine that, an 18 Str Druid would actually be viable!), and most importantly, it allows the Druid to use their iconic ability to change forms at 1st-level. So while it is, overall, a less powerful option than the core Druid, it's a lot easier to use, and it's nice not having to wait until 5th-level to actually be able to shapeshift.
Shadowhowler 02-14-08, 01:00 AM	Basicly what everyone has said already hits the nail on the head. I think DM's tend to like the shapeshift feature more then players... becuase it does bring the power level of a Druid back to more managble proportions... and it removes alot of the annoying papperwork and extra crap needed to deal with Wildshape and an Animal Companion. Also, it's MUCH better for newer players... who would have more then enough trouble mastering a Druids spell list without having to worry about Windshape and an Animal buddy as well. I personaly like it, both as a player and as a DM. I thinks it's more balanced, simpler, and less annoying. I do however think the feature could do with 1 or 2 more form options... like something aquatic for example, and something smaller for scouting.
Cartigan 02-14-08, 09:51 AM	On the other hand, it prevents new players to the Druid class from having to pore over Monster Manuals finding the right animal for the job, it doesn't force you to read over the Polymorph rules closely to figure out what you do, and do not get, from an animal form, it bases the stats of your form on your ability scores (imagine that, an 18 Str Druid would actually be viable!), and most importantly, it allows the Druid to use their iconic ability to change forms at 1st-level. So while it is, overall, a less powerful option than the core Druid, it's a lot easier to use, and it's nice not having to wait until 5th-level to actually be able to shapeshift. And it also kills all the good Druid PrCs.
Jackmojo 02-14-08, 04:54 PM	And it also kills all the good Druid PrCs. Well, thats not a very long list: Planar Shepherd all done :) Everything else is a step down for a druid (including the optional feature being discussed). Jack
Sinfire Titan 02-14-08, 04:59 PM	And it also kills all the good Druid PrCs. I believe it still counts for Wild Shape. And as for the animal COmpanion, it can be replaced.
Viktor_Von_Doom 02-14-08, 05:17 PM	And it also kills all the good Druid PrCs. Moonspeaker Druid says hi.
JaronK 02-14-08, 05:17 PM	It's a nerf. Considering the power of Druids, it's a very valid nerf that you may want to enforce on yourself if you're in a party with Fighters or Monks. JaronK
Sinfire Titan 02-14-08, 05:33 PM	It's a nerf. Considering the power of Druids, it's a very valid nerf that you may want to enforce on yourself if you're in a party with Fighters or Monks. JaronK If, for some reason beyond me, your party excludes these and other weaker classes, then keep the Wild Shape.
Tequila_Sunrise 02-14-08, 05:47 PM	I personaly like it, both as a player and as a DM. I thinks it's more balanced, simpler, and less annoying. I do however think the feature could do with 1 or 2 more form options... like something aquatic for example, and something smaller for scouting. Check out my Tome of House Rules; I suggested an aquatic shapeshift form. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=988664
LoneFlame 02-14-08, 08:59 PM	I think Shapeshift is a okay variant... for Wild Shape. Taking away both the Animal Companion & Wild Shape is a bit much(especially compared to other things you could trade Wild Shape &/or Animal Companion for). Now, I like what Shapeshift does(barring what you lose). While it's weaker than standard Wild Shape, it's a lot simpler. You don't have to thumb through 80 billion monsters & templates, just a few. Convenience does have it's perks. Plus, it's at will. However, like I said, it's weaker than Wild Shape & you lose your Animal Companion. As such, it's pretty much not worth taking, unless you don't want the Animal Companion anyway & you're lazy when it comes to the picking things to Wild Shape into thing. If you took Shapeshift, you'd lose a lot of power, but you could still be a potent member of the party, using Druid Spells & switching to/from your Shapeshifted form as needed.
danielinthewolvesden 02-14-08, 09:29 PM	OTOH, the Fast healing alt class ability is worth the trade-off.
Cartigan 02-14-08, 09:58 PM	Well, thats not a very long list: Planar Shepherd all done :) Everything else is a step down for a druid (including the optional feature being discussed). Jack Absurdly broken classes and people who say their own name aside... I believe it still counts for Wild Shape. And as for the animal COmpanion, it can be replaced. It's a fair replacement for Wild Shape, but taking Animal Companion along with it is lame. And I'm pretty sure it doesn't count for wild shape as anything, though you could argue that classes that only advance Wild Shape (as opposed to enhance it like MoMF) could advance Shape Shift as well. And it would probably work for War Shaper, well parts of War Shaper.
navar100 02-14-08, 10:11 PM	I think Shapeshift is a okay variant... for Wild Shape. Taking away both the Animal Companion & Wild Shape is a bit much(especially compared to other things you could trade Wild Shape &/or Animal Companion for). Now, I like what Shapeshift does(barring what you lose). While it's weaker than standard Wild Shape, it's a lot simpler. You don't have to thumb through 80 billion monsters & templates, just a few. Convenience does have it's perks. Plus, it's at will. However, like I said, it's weaker than Wild Shape & you lose your Animal Companion. As such, it's pretty much not worth taking, unless you don't want the Animal Companion anyway & you're lazy when it comes to the picking things to Wild Shape into thing. If you took Shapeshift, you'd lose a lot of power, but you could still be a potent member of the party, using Druid Spells & switching to/from your Shapeshifted form as needed. It wasn't so complicated when it was just the Monster Manual. It's the addition of all the later monster books that made it no longer simple, even then only if the player is trying to eke the most efficient form. If a bear or lion was fine when it was just the Monster Manual, they're still fine when there's a Monster Manual 4. A prudent player reads the Monster Manual before game time. He notes down important information for the various animals (plants and elementals later) he wants to wildshape into and keep the notes with his character sheet, something a spellcaster who likes to Summon a lot would do. There is no need to pour over every single monster manual or gameworld monster supplement.
serow_#R 02-14-08, 10:19 PM	I like it. It gives the feeling of a more feral shapeshifter thing without the mess of thumbing through various MMs. Unlimited is overrated but it's starting from level 1, so it's fun right off the bat. Taking away the Animal Companion was a good move too, but the fact that the Ranger's Animal Companion is still halved is dumb.
archerpwr 02-14-08, 10:49 PM	OTOH, the Fast healing alt class ability is worth the trade-off. Depends on the focus IMO. It's not bad, but spontaneous summons is damn good.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 04:29 AM	Depends on the focus IMO. It's not bad, but spontaneous summons is damn good. But a feat more than makes up for it. Beats the hell out of Spontaneous Cure, if you ask me. A Druid really only needs to summon a few times every now and then, so the Spontaneous Rejuvenation becomes worth it.
Scion of Coldshard 02-15-08, 02:14 PM	If it also gave the monk/swordsage AC bonus, evasion, and favored environment I would like it a lot more. That way the druid is losing two powerful options and getting a few interesting options with some power, but not as much, sitting behind them.
Spiritwalker 02-15-08, 02:32 PM	some people might realise by now that i have a slight obsession over the shapeshift ability. I love it, and have written inumerable houserules to back it up. It will never be wild shape, true, and the animal companion is a loss, but if you're a new player, it simplifies things so much - and there are ways to boost it up to deadly levels. why not check out the tome of form (in my sig) as everything is based on shapeshift characters, it really works quite well, now that it's all playtested.
archerpwr 02-15-08, 05:13 PM	But a feat more than makes up for it. Beats the hell out of Spontaneous Cure, if you ask me. A Druid really only needs to summon a few times every now and then, so the Spontaneous Rejuvenation becomes worth it. Spontaneous summoner is a pretty good point. 3*Spell level healing AoE is better than I had originally measured. Let's look at SM5 (generally the most used for healing) for comparison: 2 unicorns from a level 5 slot: 2*(CLW*3+CMW+NP) That's: 6*(1d8+5)+2*(2d8+5)+ two neutralize poisons. 10d8+40 hp total (95 total) At it's peak healing spontaneous summoning needs you to be in a party with less than 7 people in need of healing.
danielinthewolvesden 02-15-08, 08:47 PM	Depends on the focus IMO. It's not bad, but spontaneous summons is damn good. If there is also a cleric in the party, then sure. But if your druid is THE divine caster, that alt class ability is golden.
archerpwr 02-15-08, 09:05 PM	If there is also a cleric in the party, then sure. But if your druid is THE divine caster, that alt class ability is golden. Do you have the ability to purchase wands of lesser vigor and belts of battle? Is there a dread necromancer, binder, or dragon shaman in the party? Are there enough characters that like to get into melee? These questions matter.
danielinthewolvesden 02-16-08, 02:09 AM	Do you have the ability to purchase wands of lesser vigor and belts of battle? Wands of Lesser Vigor are just fine for after combat healing. But they are very poor to use during combat. Draw, then std action to get 1pt/rnd? And, can your Wildshaped form use a wand? Where does that form carry the wand?
Sinfire Titan 02-16-08, 02:20 AM	Wands of Lesser Vigor are just fine for after combat healing. But they are very poor to use during combat. Draw, then std action to get 1pt/rnd? And, can your Wildshaped form use a wand? Where does that form carry the wand? Legendary Dire Horrid Ape can use Wands just fine.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 02:30 AM	Wands of Lesser Vigor are just fine for after combat healing. But they are very poor to use during combat. Draw, then std action to get 1pt/rnd? And, can your Wildshaped form use a wand? Where does that form carry the wand? Shouldn't be using the healing burst in combat either. It heals less damage than a d6/level spell does. Net loss each round for equal spell use. If you're injured beyond fighting ability you better get the hell out of melee and let the real men clean up.
Tetsubo 02-16-08, 08:32 AM	I love the Shapeshift variant class ability. I much prefer it to Wild Shape and I've never really liked the whole Druid PokePet class feature. The next campaign I run this will be the only Druid option.
EvilVegan 02-16-08, 08:40 AM	No one mentioned that shapeshift not only gives up wildshape and animal companion, it also doesn't work with the Natural Spell feat. I mean, wildshape is fine, but the true power comes from being able to cast while wild shaped. Shapeshift loses this luxury as well. So, triple nerf.
danielinthewolvesden 02-16-08, 02:14 PM	Shouldn't be using the healing burst in combat either. It heals less damage than a d6/level spell does. Net loss each round for equal spell use. D6 damage spells have saves, which reduce the damage by half. They also generally have elemental restiance, which can cut the damage to nothing. Then there's SR and Evasion.
archerpwr 02-16-08, 02:19 PM	D6 damage spells have saves, which reduce the damage by half. They also generally have elemental restiance, which can cut the damage to nothing. Then there's SR and Evasion. I'm not going to argue with someone that has been shown to be unable to think outside the iconic roles.
Shadowhowler 02-16-08, 09:08 PM	No one mentioned that shapeshift not only gives up wildshape and animal companion, it also doesn't work with the Natural Spell feat. I mean, wildshape is fine, but the true power comes from being able to cast while wild shaped. Shapeshift loses this luxury as well. So, triple nerf. Yes and no. Shapeshift is a swift action... so you can shift into normal then cast... or cast, then shift. It actauly makes Natural Spell unessacary, thus saving you a feat. People who like to make super-optimized CoDzilla's out of their Druids will obvously prefer WildShape and an Animal Companion to the Shapeshift option... becuase the former are indisputably more powerful. However, those that prefer simplicity and balance will likely prefer the shapeshift option. This is why I said DM's tend to like Shapeshift more then Players do. ;)
Cartigan 02-16-08, 10:12 PM	Well there is no reason to strip Animal Companion when you are already removing not only Wildshape, but the ability to cast while shaped.
JaronK 02-16-08, 10:15 PM	Well, the Shapeshift varient was quite intentionally a nerf, hence the removal of Animal Companions along with the Wild Shape changes. JaronK
Scion of Coldshard 02-17-08, 01:01 AM	Perhaps people are upset about the sheer number of nerfs that come in one package? A druid can be pretty powerful, that is true, but generally it isnt the spell list that is making it so. Making nerfs to pretty much everything other than the spellcasting and some flavor abilities could leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths, even if they felt that the druid was too powerful before.