Alternate FIGHTER dead level ability review [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate FIGHTER dead level ability review [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Crimson Dawn
06-19-07, 01:05 AM I am a big hater of "dead" levels (levels where you gain any new abilities) especially when you are not a caster. The fighter has long been a favorite in my group but recently it has been played less and less. Oddly for some of you it was not an issue of power. My players were always happy about the fighter's level of power but they did not like all the dead levels. Since I already had made some changes (such as a choice of profession for class skills which another poster has put out which I think is sweet!) I decided to add some abilities to the fighter.

First I saw this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

i decided to make that an option for a dead level but since this was the fighter I decided to add other options as well. One option was adding one skill to the fighter's skill list on any dead level. This skill must be made from one of the fighter's profession packages. Examples of skills would be spot, listen, knowledge nobility-royalty, bluff, diplomacy, etc.

Then I thought a third choice and this is he one I would like to know if it is balanced the alternative dead level ability is

Bonus Skill Trick

Every dead level you may take any one skill trick as a bonus skill trick. you still must meet all the requirements to take the trick. These tricks do not count against the total number of skill tricks you are allowed to have. You do not need to pay skill points for these tricks.

Is this a good dead level ability. i think it is good because it allows for fun feat-like abilities that help with your fighting styles. They are not magical so the fighter is not bothered by that. They are not incredibly powerful and it lets you actually pick up a number of tricks because as a fighter you have very few skill points to spend and so few skill tricks to pick up. The best part about all this is that it keeps the fighter's theme of being a class that lets you choose for everything intact.

So please let me know what you think please!
blowfish
06-22-07, 07:49 PM bonus class skills and/or skill tricks are well and good, but without the proper amount of skill points, it's not so great. what I do is give every class that has 2+int skill point 4+int instead. If you did that too, your ideas would be actually useful.
Yanagita Kunio
06-22-07, 08:14 PM Also, most skill tricks are rooted in skills that a fighter doesn't have, so the total pool of skill tricks available is very slender, since even taking cross-class skill levels a fighter doesn't qualify for many "simple" skill tricks [prerequisite of 4/5 ranks in skill X] until eight or tenth level.

Skill tricks as dead level options would work a bit better if you used the Cityscape replacements skills for Fighters [Ride-->Tumble], since many skill tricks use Tumble as a component.
KnH
06-22-07, 11:24 PM What I'm doing in the game I'm DMing is to have Fighters have full initiator level and give Fighters a maneuver known at 3rd, 7th and every 4th level afterwards, from any school. They also get a stance known at 5th, 9th and every 4th level afterwards.

This is almost a straight power up, but isn't as bad as it first seems- there is no recharge system, and they will still know much fewer maneuvers and stances than the martial adepts. They will be forced to specialise in one school to get higher level maneuvers. For the section of the game that maneuvers seem the most overpowered, before level 6, they only know one maneuver, and thats at 3rd level.

All this has done so far is give the Fighter in the party an extra option in combat, meaning that they can still contribute if they can't get in a full attack or charge, and there aren't any dead levels.

Its been fun so far and hasn't destroyed game balance. Yet.

----------------------------------------------

Another idea I've had is to give them a free exotic weapon or armour proficiency at every odd level- they end up being able to use a huge number of esoteric weapons or armours, but they'll still probably be using a greatsword or conceivably a fullblade.

This means that they'll probably still play exactly the same, but they get to choose another weapon or armour at every odd level and so seem to have more options. Also, you can chuck in odd items, and expect the party to be able to use them.

Just a couple of ideas that won't really change how they play but just pad out the fighter a bit.
The Crimson Dawn
06-23-07, 12:14 AM Wow all of a sudden this thread is back SWEET!!!
ahem sorry

Anyhow yes fighters do get a lack of skill points and skills in general. There are a few things that help however...

1)I allow the use of the Thug variant used in Unearthed Arcana that gives a large number of bonus skill points and bonus skills. With this my fighter would get 4 skills per level and several new bonus skills.

2)As a house rule I give a first level fighter a choice of a profession. This is to represent part of the mentality of the training of your fighter. My favorite is the sentry profession which grants you spot and listen as bonus skills. Another would be a noble or knight style warrior who gains Knowledge nobility and royalty and diplomacy. I have a large number of choices thus all fighters get two additional themed skills.

3)As I said earlier as a another alternate ability a fighter could pick one of those profession class skills such as spot from the sentry profession. This can further upgrade your skill selection.

4)In the cityscape web enhancement there is an ability called "skilled city dweller" which allows you to trade certain wilderness skills for more urban skills. My favorite is trading ride for tumble.

5)To get more skill points you can take feats like Nymph's Kiss or be human for a race.

6)taking martial study can net you a few more different skills as well (balance, concentrate, tumble, etc) and by taking educated I get all knowledge skills as class skills.

As an example if I used a human thug fighter (who is the most likely to want to have all those tricks in the first place) with some of these additions I get

Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Swim (Str), Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), tumble, and Sleight of Hand.

I get 2 more skills as class skills that I choose for a profession. If I want any other skills I have a number of choices to get what I want.

I have 5 skills +int per level. I can get one more if I take Nymph's kiss.

Do you still think they need more skills? If you do what skills do they "need" to have added to make it work. I figure if they want more points they can be human and/or take nymph's kiss. Thanks for the input! If you disagree thats cool lets delve deeper into this. I enjoy a good discussion on class abilities!
Lawkeeper
06-23-07, 06:32 AM Give them free exotic weapon proficiencies. One EWP is usually worth a feat, but more than two are usually a waste of feats, even for fighters. So, at each dead level give them a free new EWP, and they'll get combat-focused abilities which are not too powerful. This will also give them new flavor as masters of many weapons.
The Crimson Dawn
06-23-07, 02:35 PM I am sure that giving EWP would not be unbalancing but i generally want to avoid giving a direct feat because I feel that fighters get plenty of feats but no enough non-feat abilities. I might make it a choice but I still want to stick with more skill oriented abilities.

Maybe there is a way to add skill points to the fighter via the dead level abilities. But how to do that without being too powerful. I like that we have come up with so many quality choices for the fighter to take as I believe that the fighter is the ultimate class of choices.

Thanks for bringing more ideas keep them coming!
LoneFlame
06-23-07, 03:38 PM Hmmm... the dead lv issue is quite a tricky one. Generally in D&D, you can't gain something without sacrificing something else(which kinda sucks with a class that can't sacrifice anything).

Currently, the best uses of a Fighter are 'taking it as dip class for some freebie feats,' 'quickly getting into a fighting prestige class,' and 'milking cheapshot moves such as Trip, Disarm, and Sunder.' Even taking some Variants, the Fighter is still one of the weaker fighting classes.

The Exotic Weapon proficiencies aren't that useful, so it's almost not even worth considering anyway(unless your going into some Exotic Weapon Orientated Prestige Class).

Skill Tricks are pretty nifty, but you have pretty much no choice but to take the Thug Variant Fighter to even consider trying to get them.

The Book of Nine Swords Variation of the Fighter looked pretty good, especially since at higher lvs, those Fighter Feats fall short of giving the Fighter any real ability to compete against classes with spiffy cool special abilities/attacks. Also, it really gives some incentive to stay in Fighter. Sure it makes the Fighter more powerful, but that is power the class truly needs just to even try to compete with other fighting classes, with the except of Samurai from Complete Warrior(which is the Shugenja of fighting classes).

Additionally: I have a potential solution to the lack of Skill Points on the fighter. It's a fairly universal variant I came up with. Unfortunately, it does hurt the fighter's ability to fight, because of what you have to give up... Basically, lower Fighter's hit dice to a d8 to raise its skill points to 4 + Int Mod, without getting rid of any proficiencies or feats. Also, add 4 skills of your choice to the Fighter's list of class skills.

Then, you could combine that with the Thug Variant and have a total of 6 + Int mod skill points and have the Thug Fighter's class skills + 4 of your choice. Sure you would only have a d8 hit for your hit dice and lose some armor proficiencies, but you would be able to make the Skill Trick Dead Lv Filler work, as well as having a more versatile fighter.

The Finale:
For a highly customizable, more versatile, and more capable fighter... Do the Thug Fighter with the added on variant(the one that gets more skills at the cost of hit points) I came up with. Then pick one of the following two dead lv filler options:
Option 1: at each lv picking up your choice of a Skill Trick, an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Applied Force, Combat Bearing, or Stamina Reserve.
Option 2: the Book of Nine Swords sword style filler(suggested by KnH)

And if you really want to have some fun, add on the Dungeon Crasher Variant(from Dungeonscape)
The Crimson Dawn
06-24-07, 12:13 AM I am loving this discussion because we are coming up with so many ways to make the fighter modular which is amazing!

On the previous post I like your idea as an additional choice for the fighter. I wonder though is it absolutely necessary as many skill tricks use only a few different skills.

List

Type: Number of skill tricks typically taken by a fighter in my opinion; why I think that way.

Interaction skills: 1; Only one is really for fighters unless you have a specific concept. Never Outnumbered is the only one for most fighters and it uses a class skill so that is good even for a standard fighter. Winning skill is intimidate.

Manipulation: NA; This one is harder for me as some of these may be situationally good but none of them I would think a straight fighter would take. These would be sweet for a multiclass fighter especially if he has low strength. Winning skill is hard to tell you would have to choose your own and the fighter is not the best at these skill tricks.

Mental: 6 ; These are really good tricks and most are doable. The only ones you would have trouble getting (assuming you use my profession ability) are the collector of stories (not enough skill points to spend on many knowledge skills and not enough knowledge skills unless I take the education feat) and Magical Appraisal which has too much out there skills. On the positive side you can take Listen to this at level 3 as your first skill trick. The winning skills are spot and listen.

Movement: All; All of these tricks are nice. Most are doable because they all use skills that my fighter can pick up easily and most are what I would take normally. The only exceptions are balance and escape artist. I can find ways of adding balance to my skill list and 5 ranks is all I need for all the skill tricks, a synergy bonus, and to keep my dex score while balancing. Escape artist is harder but on the positive side I do not need that so much as I have a high strength score and really do I need to pick up every skill trick ever? Winning skills here are tumble, climb, balance, ride, and jump.

So the skills I need for most of the skill tricks I would ever want are tumble, climb, balance, ride, jump, escape artist, spot, listen, knowledges, and intimidate. However you only need 5 ranks in balance for all the good bonuses (I get balance either by martial study or by using my skill alternate class ability) and 5 ranks in ride to get that skill trick. Knowledge is way to hard to really get with a standard fighter so I say give up on those. Escape artist we can not do so those are out. Climb, tumble, and jump do not need to be maximized since they are usually non-opposed checks so those only need as many ranks as you need. So if you want most of the skill tricks you need to max out spot, listen, and intimidate. you also typically want a lot of skill points in tumble, and have a few skill points in climb, balance, and jump. So the total amount of skills per level for one of my characters is about 5, 6 if I want to have a little leeway. If I decided that I did not need the skill trick using intimidate I could cut my need for skill points by 1 so I really need only about 4-5 skill points which is doable for a human fighter with a decent intelligence or using nymph's kiss. Thug fighter would easier and more thematic though no argument there.
LoneFlame
06-27-07, 07:00 PM A good way to get over the class skill thing is 'Cosmopolitan' from Forgotten Realms. Pick a skill, it becomes a class skill and you get a +2 to said skill.

Another good one, though for humans(and doppelgangers) only, is Able Learner. It makes a cross-class skill cost only 1 skill point(rather than 2), but you're still stuck with the max ranks of a cross-class skill

Alternatively(for the Thug Variant), you could just substitute the 4 skills(the ones they add to the Fighter's list in the aforementioned variant) with 4 of your choosing(if they seem reasonable)

Also, you could(if reasonable), swap out some of the actual class skills that often end up seeing little or no use(like Ride and Handle Animal) for skills like Spot and Listen.

Just some thoughts I had... Also, here's a write-out I did of a Fighter using some of the adjustments that have been suggested...

***Alternative Fighter write-out***

Lv Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special
1 1 2 0 0 Style Introduction
2 2 3 0 0 Bonus Feat
3 3 3 1 1 Fighter Style
4 4 4 1 1 Bonus Feat
5 5 4 1 1 Fighter Style
6 6/1 5 2 2 Bonus Feat
7 7/2 5 2 2 Fighter Style
8 8/3 6 2 2 Bonus Feat
9 9/4 6 3 3 Fighter Style
10 10/5 7 3 3 Bonus Feat
11 11/6/1 7 3 3 Fighter Style
12 12/7/2 8 4 4 Bonus Feat
13 13/8/3 8 4 4 Fighter Style
14 14/9/4 9 4 4 Bonus Feat
15 15/10/5 9 5 5 Fighter Style
16 16/11/6/1 10 5 5 Bonus Feat
17 17/12/7/2 10 5 5 Fighter Style
18 18/13/8/3 11 6 6 Bonus Feat
19 19/14/9/4 11 6 6 Fighter Style
20 20/15/10/5 12 6 6 Bonus Feat

Hit Dice: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim, Tumble
Weapons: Simple & Martial
Armor: Light Armor, no Shields

Style Introduction: Pick your Fighter Style, either Combat Tricks or Martial Style.
**For Combat Tricks: you gain add 3 more skills to your list of Class Skills
**For Martial Style: you recover Maneuvers(when you get them) in combat by spending an Full-Round concentrating(DC 15 + Maneuver Lv per manuever). This only recovers 1 Maneuver per round of concentration. Add Concentration to your Class Skill List
Bonus Feat: Pick a character feat that is a Fighter Feat. Must meet
requirements
Fighter Style: Progress down your chosen Fighter Style.

Combat Tricks

Pick One of the Following:
--Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).***

--Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook). ***

--Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Ex): Gain proficiency with an Exotic Weapon of your choice^^

--Skill Trick: Pick a Skill Trick from the Complete Scoundrel^^

--Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook). ***

***You can take this multiple times and it stacks
^^You can take this multiple times, each time picking something new

Martial Style

Maneuvers: Gain a Maneuver at Lvs 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19

Stances: Gain a Stance at Lvs 5, 9, 13, and 17

What do y'all think?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Crimson Dawn 06-19-07, 01:05 AM	I am a big hater of "dead" levels (levels where you gain any new abilities) especially when you are not a caster. The fighter has long been a favorite in my group but recently it has been played less and less. Oddly for some of you it was not an issue of power. My players were always happy about the fighter's level of power but they did not like all the dead levels. Since I already had made some changes (such as a choice of profession for class skills which another poster has put out which I think is sweet!) I decided to add some abilities to the fighter. First I saw this http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a i decided to make that an option for a dead level but since this was the fighter I decided to add other options as well. One option was adding one skill to the fighter's skill list on any dead level. This skill must be made from one of the fighter's profession packages. Examples of skills would be spot, listen, knowledge nobility-royalty, bluff, diplomacy, etc. Then I thought a third choice and this is he one I would like to know if it is balanced the alternative dead level ability is Bonus Skill Trick Every dead level you may take any one skill trick as a bonus skill trick. you still must meet all the requirements to take the trick. These tricks do not count against the total number of skill tricks you are allowed to have. You do not need to pay skill points for these tricks. Is this a good dead level ability. i think it is good because it allows for fun feat-like abilities that help with your fighting styles. They are not magical so the fighter is not bothered by that. They are not incredibly powerful and it lets you actually pick up a number of tricks because as a fighter you have very few skill points to spend and so few skill tricks to pick up. The best part about all this is that it keeps the fighter's theme of being a class that lets you choose for everything intact. So please let me know what you think please!
blowfish 06-22-07, 07:49 PM	bonus class skills and/or skill tricks are well and good, but without the proper amount of skill points, it's not so great. what I do is give every class that has 2+int skill point 4+int instead. If you did that too, your ideas would be actually useful.
Yanagita Kunio 06-22-07, 08:14 PM	Also, most skill tricks are rooted in skills that a fighter doesn't have, so the total pool of skill tricks available is very slender, since even taking cross-class skill levels a fighter doesn't qualify for many "simple" skill tricks [prerequisite of 4/5 ranks in skill X] until eight or tenth level. Skill tricks as dead level options would work a bit better if you used the Cityscape replacements skills for Fighters [Ride-->Tumble], since many skill tricks use Tumble as a component.
KnH 06-22-07, 11:24 PM	What I'm doing in the game I'm DMing is to have Fighters have full initiator level and give Fighters a maneuver known at 3rd, 7th and every 4th level afterwards, from any school. They also get a stance known at 5th, 9th and every 4th level afterwards. This is almost a straight power up, but isn't as bad as it first seems- there is no recharge system, and they will still know much fewer maneuvers and stances than the martial adepts. They will be forced to specialise in one school to get higher level maneuvers. For the section of the game that maneuvers seem the most overpowered, before level 6, they only know one maneuver, and thats at 3rd level. All this has done so far is give the Fighter in the party an extra option in combat, meaning that they can still contribute if they can't get in a full attack or charge, and there aren't any dead levels. Its been fun so far and hasn't destroyed game balance. Yet. ---------------------------------------------- Another idea I've had is to give them a free exotic weapon or armour proficiency at every odd level- they end up being able to use a huge number of esoteric weapons or armours, but they'll still probably be using a greatsword or conceivably a fullblade. This means that they'll probably still play exactly the same, but they get to choose another weapon or armour at every odd level and so seem to have more options. Also, you can chuck in odd items, and expect the party to be able to use them. Just a couple of ideas that won't really change how they play but just pad out the fighter a bit.
The Crimson Dawn 06-23-07, 12:14 AM	Wow all of a sudden this thread is back SWEET!!! ahem sorry Anyhow yes fighters do get a lack of skill points and skills in general. There are a few things that help however... 1)I allow the use of the Thug variant used in Unearthed Arcana that gives a large number of bonus skill points and bonus skills. With this my fighter would get 4 skills per level and several new bonus skills. 2)As a house rule I give a first level fighter a choice of a profession. This is to represent part of the mentality of the training of your fighter. My favorite is the sentry profession which grants you spot and listen as bonus skills. Another would be a noble or knight style warrior who gains Knowledge nobility and royalty and diplomacy. I have a large number of choices thus all fighters get two additional themed skills. 3)As I said earlier as a another alternate ability a fighter could pick one of those profession class skills such as spot from the sentry profession. This can further upgrade your skill selection. 4)In the cityscape web enhancement there is an ability called "skilled city dweller" which allows you to trade certain wilderness skills for more urban skills. My favorite is trading ride for tumble. 5)To get more skill points you can take feats like Nymph's Kiss or be human for a race. 6)taking martial study can net you a few more different skills as well (balance, concentrate, tumble, etc) and by taking educated I get all knowledge skills as class skills. As an example if I used a human thug fighter (who is the most likely to want to have all those tricks in the first place) with some of these additions I get Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Swim (Str), Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), tumble, and Sleight of Hand. I get 2 more skills as class skills that I choose for a profession. If I want any other skills I have a number of choices to get what I want. I have 5 skills +int per level. I can get one more if I take Nymph's kiss. Do you still think they need more skills? If you do what skills do they "need" to have added to make it work. I figure if they want more points they can be human and/or take nymph's kiss. Thanks for the input! If you disagree thats cool lets delve deeper into this. I enjoy a good discussion on class abilities!
Lawkeeper 06-23-07, 06:32 AM	Give them free exotic weapon proficiencies. One EWP is usually worth a feat, but more than two are usually a waste of feats, even for fighters. So, at each dead level give them a free new EWP, and they'll get combat-focused abilities which are not too powerful. This will also give them new flavor as masters of many weapons.
The Crimson Dawn 06-23-07, 02:35 PM	I am sure that giving EWP would not be unbalancing but i generally want to avoid giving a direct feat because I feel that fighters get plenty of feats but no enough non-feat abilities. I might make it a choice but I still want to stick with more skill oriented abilities. Maybe there is a way to add skill points to the fighter via the dead level abilities. But how to do that without being too powerful. I like that we have come up with so many quality choices for the fighter to take as I believe that the fighter is the ultimate class of choices. Thanks for bringing more ideas keep them coming!
LoneFlame 06-23-07, 03:38 PM	Hmmm... the dead lv issue is quite a tricky one. Generally in D&D, you can't gain something without sacrificing something else(which kinda sucks with a class that can't sacrifice anything). Currently, the best uses of a Fighter are 'taking it as dip class for some freebie feats,' 'quickly getting into a fighting prestige class,' and 'milking cheapshot moves such as Trip, Disarm, and Sunder.' Even taking some Variants, the Fighter is still one of the weaker fighting classes. The Exotic Weapon proficiencies aren't that useful, so it's almost not even worth considering anyway(unless your going into some Exotic Weapon Orientated Prestige Class). Skill Tricks are pretty nifty, but you have pretty much no choice but to take the Thug Variant Fighter to even consider trying to get them. The Book of Nine Swords Variation of the Fighter looked pretty good, especially since at higher lvs, those Fighter Feats fall short of giving the Fighter any real ability to compete against classes with spiffy cool special abilities/attacks. Also, it really gives some incentive to stay in Fighter. Sure it makes the Fighter more powerful, but that is power the class truly needs just to even try to compete with other fighting classes, with the except of Samurai from Complete Warrior(which is the Shugenja of fighting classes). Additionally: I have a potential solution to the lack of Skill Points on the fighter. It's a fairly universal variant I came up with. Unfortunately, it does hurt the fighter's ability to fight, because of what you have to give up... Basically, lower Fighter's hit dice to a d8 to raise its skill points to 4 + Int Mod, without getting rid of any proficiencies or feats. Also, add 4 skills of your choice to the Fighter's list of class skills. Then, you could combine that with the Thug Variant and have a total of 6 + Int mod skill points and have the Thug Fighter's class skills + 4 of your choice. Sure you would only have a d8 hit for your hit dice and lose some armor proficiencies, but you would be able to make the Skill Trick Dead Lv Filler work, as well as having a more versatile fighter. The Finale: For a highly customizable, more versatile, and more capable fighter... Do the Thug Fighter with the added on variant(the one that gets more skills at the cost of hit points) I came up with. Then pick one of the following two dead lv filler options: Option 1: at each lv picking up your choice of a Skill Trick, an Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Applied Force, Combat Bearing, or Stamina Reserve. Option 2: the Book of Nine Swords sword style filler(suggested by KnH) And if you really want to have some fun, add on the Dungeon Crasher Variant(from Dungeonscape)
The Crimson Dawn 06-24-07, 12:13 AM	I am loving this discussion because we are coming up with so many ways to make the fighter modular which is amazing! On the previous post I like your idea as an additional choice for the fighter. I wonder though is it absolutely necessary as many skill tricks use only a few different skills. List Type: Number of skill tricks typically taken by a fighter in my opinion; why I think that way. Interaction skills: 1; Only one is really for fighters unless you have a specific concept. Never Outnumbered is the only one for most fighters and it uses a class skill so that is good even for a standard fighter. Winning skill is intimidate. Manipulation: NA; This one is harder for me as some of these may be situationally good but none of them I would think a straight fighter would take. These would be sweet for a multiclass fighter especially if he has low strength. Winning skill is hard to tell you would have to choose your own and the fighter is not the best at these skill tricks. Mental: 6 ; These are really good tricks and most are doable. The only ones you would have trouble getting (assuming you use my profession ability) are the collector of stories (not enough skill points to spend on many knowledge skills and not enough knowledge skills unless I take the education feat) and Magical Appraisal which has too much out there skills. On the positive side you can take Listen to this at level 3 as your first skill trick. The winning skills are spot and listen. Movement: All; All of these tricks are nice. Most are doable because they all use skills that my fighter can pick up easily and most are what I would take normally. The only exceptions are balance and escape artist. I can find ways of adding balance to my skill list and 5 ranks is all I need for all the skill tricks, a synergy bonus, and to keep my dex score while balancing. Escape artist is harder but on the positive side I do not need that so much as I have a high strength score and really do I need to pick up every skill trick ever? Winning skills here are tumble, climb, balance, ride, and jump. So the skills I need for most of the skill tricks I would ever want are tumble, climb, balance, ride, jump, escape artist, spot, listen, knowledges, and intimidate. However you only need 5 ranks in balance for all the good bonuses (I get balance either by martial study or by using my skill alternate class ability) and 5 ranks in ride to get that skill trick. Knowledge is way to hard to really get with a standard fighter so I say give up on those. Escape artist we can not do so those are out. Climb, tumble, and jump do not need to be maximized since they are usually non-opposed checks so those only need as many ranks as you need. So if you want most of the skill tricks you need to max out spot, listen, and intimidate. you also typically want a lot of skill points in tumble, and have a few skill points in climb, balance, and jump. So the total amount of skills per level for one of my characters is about 5, 6 if I want to have a little leeway. If I decided that I did not need the skill trick using intimidate I could cut my need for skill points by 1 so I really need only about 4-5 skill points which is doable for a human fighter with a decent intelligence or using nymph's kiss. Thug fighter would easier and more thematic though no argument there.
LoneFlame 06-27-07, 07:00 PM	A good way to get over the class skill thing is 'Cosmopolitan' from Forgotten Realms. Pick a skill, it becomes a class skill and you get a +2 to said skill. Another good one, though for humans(and doppelgangers) only, is Able Learner. It makes a cross-class skill cost only 1 skill point(rather than 2), but you're still stuck with the max ranks of a cross-class skill Alternatively(for the Thug Variant), you could just substitute the 4 skills(the ones they add to the Fighter's list in the aforementioned variant) with 4 of your choosing(if they seem reasonable) Also, you could(if reasonable), swap out some of the actual class skills that often end up seeing little or no use(like Ride and Handle Animal) for skills like Spot and Listen. Just some thoughts I had... Also, here's a write-out I did of a Fighter using some of the adjustments that have been suggested... *Alternative Fighter write-out* Lv Base Attack Fort Ref Will Special 1 1 2 0 0 Style Introduction 2 2 3 0 0 Bonus Feat 3 3 3 1 1 Fighter Style 4 4 4 1 1 Bonus Feat 5 5 4 1 1 Fighter Style 6 6/1 5 2 2 Bonus Feat 7 7/2 5 2 2 Fighter Style 8 8/3 6 2 2 Bonus Feat 9 9/4 6 3 3 Fighter Style 10 10/5 7 3 3 Bonus Feat 11 11/6/1 7 3 3 Fighter Style 12 12/7/2 8 4 4 Bonus Feat 13 13/8/3 8 4 4 Fighter Style 14 14/9/4 9 4 4 Bonus Feat 15 15/10/5 9 5 5 Fighter Style 16 16/11/6/1 10 5 5 Bonus Feat 17 17/12/7/2 10 5 5 Fighter Style 18 18/13/8/3 11 6 6 Bonus Feat 19 19/14/9/4 11 6 6 Fighter Style 20 20/15/10/5 12 6 6 Bonus Feat Hit Dice: d10 Skill Points: 4 + Int Mod Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim, Tumble Weapons: Simple & Martial Armor: Light Armor, no Shields Style Introduction: Pick your Fighter Style, either Combat Tricks or Martial Style. For Combat Tricks: you gain add 3 more skills to your list of Class Skills For Martial Style: you recover Maneuvers(when you get them) in combat by spending an Full-Round concentrating(DC 15 + Maneuver Lv per manuever). This only recovers 1 Maneuver per round of concentration. Add Concentration to your Class Skill List Bonus Feat: Pick a character feat that is a Fighter Feat. Must meet requirements Fighter Style: Progress down your chosen Fighter Style. Combat Tricks Pick One of the Following: --Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).* --Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook). * --Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Ex): Gain proficiency with an Exotic Weapon of your choice^^ --Skill Trick: Pick a Skill Trick from the Complete Scoundrel^^ --Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook). * *You can take this multiple times and it stacks ^^You can take this multiple times, each time picking something new Martial Style Maneuvers: Gain a Maneuver at Lvs 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19 Stances: Gain a Stance at Lvs 5, 9, 13, and 17 What do y'all think?