Alternate Rogue Class Features? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Rogue Class Features? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hanuman47
06-19-07, 04:47 PM I like the skill points and selection of the Rogue class as well as most of the class features. From a roleplayer's perspective , the Rogue class makes a nice base for many types of characters. But the one feature that irks me is the Sneak Attack. Why can't I play a skilled character who is not a back-stabbing thug?!? (Before anyone suggests it, no, I don't consider the Expert NPC class a viable alternative)

My question, then, is are there any Official sources that have alternative class features to trade for the Sneak Attack? How about unofficial ones?

Thanks!
RobbyPants
06-19-07, 04:51 PM My question, then, is are there any Official sources that have alternative class features to trade for the Sneak Attack? How about unofficial ones?

Thanks!
Yes. Unearthed Arcana has a rogue varient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) that gets the fighter's bonus feats in place of Sneak Attack. It should still keep all of the other features of the class.

Likewise, they made a fighter varient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) with sneak attack in place of bonus feats.
goawayugh
06-19-07, 05:02 PM Why can't I play a skilled character who is not a back-stabbing thug?!?

Who said anything about SAing being like a back-stabbing thug?!?!

All SA means is that you found a weak spot and hit them there for more damage. It has NOTHING to do with being a back-stabbing thug. If it did, then there wouldn't be any LG rogues, would there?

My wife has played several CG rogues. There is nothing evil/wrong about SAing. It's just catching someone off guard.
Hanuman47
06-19-07, 05:11 PM RobbyPants: Whoops, I forgot about that one. Not bad. Still wondering if there are any less combat-oriented options out there.

goawayugh: I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole for humorous effect. Clearly, I need to take a few more ranks in Perform (Comedy). I understand and agree with what you're saying about Sneak Attacks. I'm just looking for options for some character concepts that most of the other Rogue abilities fit with, but for whom the Sneak Attack does not quite fit the flavor of what I'm going for.
glacialcat
06-19-07, 05:23 PM You could look at the Factotum in Dungeonscape. Their skill list is All. Every single skill is on their list, and they get 6+ INT skill points. Less than Rogue, but their main class features function off of INT, so you might end up with more than a Rogue. Now, they do lose most of the Rogue's class features, and they can chose to gain a weak Sneak Attack (but its so weak I'd never use it).

They get the ability to add their INT to attack or damage, or even saves, can cast a few arcane spells a day, and can do some light healing (like Lay on Hands). Basically a Jack of All Trades. Might not fit what you were looking for exactly, but it is a very skillful class that is not defined by its Sneak Attack.
goawayugh
06-19-07, 05:44 PM goawayugh: I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole for humorous effect. Clearly, I need to take a few more ranks in Perform (Comedy). I understand and agree with what you're saying about Sneak Attacks. I'm just looking for options for some character concepts that most of the other Rogue abilities fit with, but for whom the Sneak Attack does not quite fit the flavor of what I'm going for.

Oh...ok...sorry...that's just a hot button issue with me. I hate people who think that just because you're a rogue, you have to be a sneaky, back-stabbing, kniving, little prick.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
06-19-07, 08:58 PM Options I know of:
- choose a different class: factotum, scout, ninja, spellthief, etc.
- dwarven rogue racial sub. It actually only puts you behind one sneak attack die, but it changes you into a demolitions expert. Nice little reflavoring. Works great in a campaign with explosives . . .
- stalker variant rogue from DragonMech. Doesn't actually give up sneak attack, but again, reflavoring. You get an expanded skill list and specific abilities against mechs and constructs. The professional sabateur/secret agent.
- changeling rogue racial sub. Again, doesn't actually give up sneak attack, but is now a social rogue, not a dungeon delver. Also the only way to get 10 + INT skill points. The cost (for first level) being trapfinding - take a level of scout or spellthief or something.
RobbyPants
06-20-07, 09:07 AM RobbyPants: Whoops, I forgot about that one. Not bad. Still wondering if there are any less combat-oriented options out there.
Less combat oriented? Try a beguiler from PHB2. They get almost as many skills as a rogue (with a solid skill list) and trapfinding. Their main emphasis is enchantment and illusion spells, so they can be great at avoiding or circumventing combat all together.
goawayugh
06-20-07, 09:42 AM Less combat oriented? Try a beguiler from PHB2. They get almost as many skills as a rogue (with a solid skill list) and trapfinding. Their main emphasis is enchantment and illusion spells, so they can be great at avoiding or circumventing combat all together.

Beguiler is the best base class ever. They actually tend to get the same if not more skill points than your average rogue (due to the Int based spellcasting). Plus their class skill list is one longer than the rogue's. The only drawback is poor BAB, but you're not wanting combat anyway.
RobbyPants
06-20-07, 10:48 AM Beguiler is the best base class ever. They actually tend to get the same if not more skill points than your average rogue (due to the Int based spellcasting). Plus their class skill list is one longer than the rogue's. The only drawback is poor BAB, but you're not wanting combat anyway.
Exactly, which is why I suggested it. I wasn't leaning in this direction at first, but after reading all of the OP's comments, this seemed like a perfect fit.

[off topic]I've thought for a while about how I would build by "perfect" four-person party. I was trying to shy away from the four "roles", and rather, to focus on important things that need to be covered. The beguiler seemed like a better fit than a rogue. Really, the most important thing for a rogue to do for the party is disarm traps (as they were the only ones who could in the core classes). Plus, it's a full caster! All of the members of this party are full casters.[/off topic]
goawayugh
06-20-07, 10:56 AM [off topic]I've thought for a while about how I would build by "perfect" four-person party. I was trying to shy away from the four "roles", and rather, to focus on important things that need to be covered. The beguiler seemed like a better fit than a rogue. Really, the most important thing for a rogue to do for the party is disarm traps (as they were the only ones who could in the core classes). Plus, it's a full caster! All of the members of this party are full casters.[/off topic]

Out of curiosity, what were the other three?
Hanuman47
06-20-07, 11:49 AM I haven't seen the Factorum class, but it sounds interesting; I'll have to check it out. I am very fond of the Beguiler class and have used it quite effectively (until he couldn't jump off the bridge another party member fireballed in time, that is).

After considering it more, I think the original suggestion (swap fighter bonus feats for sneak attack) will work out. For this particular character, there are plenty of useful things I could take (Dodge, Extra Toughness from Complete Warrior come to mind) since the character is only going to take a level or two of Rogue.

Thanks for all the great suggestions!
nastynate
06-20-07, 12:05 PM Out of curiosity, what were the other three?

Hmm...Just guessing here.

Beguiler: Skills, Trapfinding/Disarming, Enchantments, Illusions
Druid: Melee (wildshape + animal companion + natural spell + summon spells)
Wizard: Battlefield control spells, scry/teleport (travel and recon), save or die spells
Cleric: Healing (w/ reach spell), Archery (divine power, strength bow, zen archery), utility spells (restoration, raise dead, etc)

Without even taking prestige classes into consideration, this party is teh nutz.
RobbyPants
06-20-07, 12:32 PM Out of curiosity, what were the other three?
Short answer:

Druid
Cleric
Beguiler
Wizard

Long answer:

Druid - no multiclassing. Straight druid 20.
Cleric - perhaps multiclass into a suitable, fullcasting PrC, depending on the campaign
Beguiler - perhaps take a level of mindbender just for telepathy
Wizard - be a specialist (summoning), drop illusion and enchantment (as the beguiler covers this). Pick up Master Specialist ASAP (level 4). If you're an elf (grey elf for the Int!), pick up Abjurant Champion after completing Master Specialist, as you'll automatically qualify for the prereqs at this point, without even trying!

Anyway, the druid and cleric both fill the role of tank and divine caster. Why have one of each when you can have two of each? The beguiler has the trapfinding of a rogue (the most important group feature) and is a full caster. The wizard (conjuror) fills the rest of the arcane casting role.

Hmm...Just guessing here.

Beguiler: Skills, Trapfinding/Disarming, Enchantments, Illusions
Druid: Melee (wildshape + animal companion + natural spell + summon spells)
Wizard: Battlefield control spells, scry/teleport (travel and recon), save or die spells
Cleric: Healing (w/ reach spell), Archery (divine power, strength bow, zen archery), utility spells (restoration, raise dead, etc)

Without even taking prestige classes into consideration, this party is teh nutz.
Yep. You guessed it exactly. This party would be pretty strong straight 20 all around, even without the PrCs. Oddly (nicely) enough, the next game I'm running (with 3 players), they're planning on doing cleric, druid, and wizard. Too bad I don't have a forth player... :P
danielinthewolvesden
06-20-07, 01:19 PM Ranger gets Trapfinding as a alternate in Dungeonscape.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanuman47 06-19-07, 04:47 PM	I like the skill points and selection of the Rogue class as well as most of the class features. From a roleplayer's perspective , the Rogue class makes a nice base for many types of characters. But the one feature that irks me is the Sneak Attack. Why can't I play a skilled character who is not a back-stabbing thug?!? (Before anyone suggests it, no, I don't consider the Expert NPC class a viable alternative) My question, then, is are there any Official sources that have alternative class features to trade for the Sneak Attack? How about unofficial ones? Thanks!
RobbyPants 06-19-07, 04:51 PM	My question, then, is are there any Official sources that have alternative class features to trade for the Sneak Attack? How about unofficial ones? Thanks! Yes. Unearthed Arcana has a rogue varient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) that gets the fighter's bonus feats in place of Sneak Attack. It should still keep all of the other features of the class. Likewise, they made a fighter varient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) with sneak attack in place of bonus feats.
goawayugh 06-19-07, 05:02 PM	Why can't I play a skilled character who is not a back-stabbing thug?!? Who said anything about SAing being like a back-stabbing thug?!?! All SA means is that you found a weak spot and hit them there for more damage. It has NOTHING to do with being a back-stabbing thug. If it did, then there wouldn't be any LG rogues, would there? My wife has played several CG rogues. There is nothing evil/wrong about SAing. It's just catching someone off guard.
Hanuman47 06-19-07, 05:11 PM	RobbyPants: Whoops, I forgot about that one. Not bad. Still wondering if there are any less combat-oriented options out there. goawayugh: I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole for humorous effect. Clearly, I need to take a few more ranks in Perform (Comedy). I understand and agree with what you're saying about Sneak Attacks. I'm just looking for options for some character concepts that most of the other Rogue abilities fit with, but for whom the Sneak Attack does not quite fit the flavor of what I'm going for.
glacialcat 06-19-07, 05:23 PM	You could look at the Factotum in Dungeonscape. Their skill list is All. Every single skill is on their list, and they get 6+ INT skill points. Less than Rogue, but their main class features function off of INT, so you might end up with more than a Rogue. Now, they do lose most of the Rogue's class features, and they can chose to gain a weak Sneak Attack (but its so weak I'd never use it). They get the ability to add their INT to attack or damage, or even saves, can cast a few arcane spells a day, and can do some light healing (like Lay on Hands). Basically a Jack of All Trades. Might not fit what you were looking for exactly, but it is a very skillful class that is not defined by its Sneak Attack.
goawayugh 06-19-07, 05:44 PM	goawayugh: I was indulging in a bit of hyperbole for humorous effect. Clearly, I need to take a few more ranks in Perform (Comedy). I understand and agree with what you're saying about Sneak Attacks. I'm just looking for options for some character concepts that most of the other Rogue abilities fit with, but for whom the Sneak Attack does not quite fit the flavor of what I'm going for. Oh...ok...sorry...that's just a hot button issue with me. I hate people who think that just because you're a rogue, you have to be a sneaky, back-stabbing, kniving, little prick.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 06-19-07, 08:58 PM	Options I know of: - choose a different class: factotum, scout, ninja, spellthief, etc. - dwarven rogue racial sub. It actually only puts you behind one sneak attack die, but it changes you into a demolitions expert. Nice little reflavoring. Works great in a campaign with explosives . . . - stalker variant rogue from DragonMech. Doesn't actually give up sneak attack, but again, reflavoring. You get an expanded skill list and specific abilities against mechs and constructs. The professional sabateur/secret agent. - changeling rogue racial sub. Again, doesn't actually give up sneak attack, but is now a social rogue, not a dungeon delver. Also the only way to get 10 + INT skill points. The cost (for first level) being trapfinding - take a level of scout or spellthief or something.
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 09:07 AM	RobbyPants: Whoops, I forgot about that one. Not bad. Still wondering if there are any less combat-oriented options out there. Less combat oriented? Try a beguiler from PHB2. They get almost as many skills as a rogue (with a solid skill list) and trapfinding. Their main emphasis is enchantment and illusion spells, so they can be great at avoiding or circumventing combat all together.
goawayugh 06-20-07, 09:42 AM	Less combat oriented? Try a beguiler from PHB2. They get almost as many skills as a rogue (with a solid skill list) and trapfinding. Their main emphasis is enchantment and illusion spells, so they can be great at avoiding or circumventing combat all together. Beguiler is the best base class ever. They actually tend to get the same if not more skill points than your average rogue (due to the Int based spellcasting). Plus their class skill list is one longer than the rogue's. The only drawback is poor BAB, but you're not wanting combat anyway.
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 10:48 AM	Beguiler is the best base class ever. They actually tend to get the same if not more skill points than your average rogue (due to the Int based spellcasting). Plus their class skill list is one longer than the rogue's. The only drawback is poor BAB, but you're not wanting combat anyway. Exactly, which is why I suggested it. I wasn't leaning in this direction at first, but after reading all of the OP's comments, this seemed like a perfect fit. [off topic]I've thought for a while about how I would build by "perfect" four-person party. I was trying to shy away from the four "roles", and rather, to focus on important things that need to be covered. The beguiler seemed like a better fit than a rogue. Really, the most important thing for a rogue to do for the party is disarm traps (as they were the only ones who could in the core classes). Plus, it's a full caster! All of the members of this party are full casters.[/off topic]
goawayugh 06-20-07, 10:56 AM	[off topic]I've thought for a while about how I would build by "perfect" four-person party. I was trying to shy away from the four "roles", and rather, to focus on important things that need to be covered. The beguiler seemed like a better fit than a rogue. Really, the most important thing for a rogue to do for the party is disarm traps (as they were the only ones who could in the core classes). Plus, it's a full caster! All of the members of this party are full casters.[/off topic] Out of curiosity, what were the other three?
Hanuman47 06-20-07, 11:49 AM	I haven't seen the Factorum class, but it sounds interesting; I'll have to check it out. I am very fond of the Beguiler class and have used it quite effectively (until he couldn't jump off the bridge another party member fireballed in time, that is). After considering it more, I think the original suggestion (swap fighter bonus feats for sneak attack) will work out. For this particular character, there are plenty of useful things I could take (Dodge, Extra Toughness from Complete Warrior come to mind) since the character is only going to take a level or two of Rogue. Thanks for all the great suggestions!
nastynate 06-20-07, 12:05 PM	Out of curiosity, what were the other three? Hmm...Just guessing here. Beguiler: Skills, Trapfinding/Disarming, Enchantments, Illusions Druid: Melee (wildshape + animal companion + natural spell + summon spells) Wizard: Battlefield control spells, scry/teleport (travel and recon), save or die spells Cleric: Healing (w/ reach spell), Archery (divine power, strength bow, zen archery), utility spells (restoration, raise dead, etc) Without even taking prestige classes into consideration, this party is teh nutz.
RobbyPants 06-20-07, 12:32 PM	Out of curiosity, what were the other three? Short answer: Druid Cleric Beguiler Wizard Long answer: Druid - no multiclassing. Straight druid 20. Cleric - perhaps multiclass into a suitable, fullcasting PrC, depending on the campaign Beguiler - perhaps take a level of mindbender just for telepathy Wizard - be a specialist (summoning), drop illusion and enchantment (as the beguiler covers this). Pick up Master Specialist ASAP (level 4). If you're an elf (grey elf for the Int!), pick up Abjurant Champion after completing Master Specialist, as you'll automatically qualify for the prereqs at this point, without even trying! Anyway, the druid and cleric both fill the role of tank and divine caster. Why have one of each when you can have two of each? The beguiler has the trapfinding of a rogue (the most important group feature) and is a full caster. The wizard (conjuror) fills the rest of the arcane casting role. Hmm...Just guessing here. Beguiler: Skills, Trapfinding/Disarming, Enchantments, Illusions Druid: Melee (wildshape + animal companion + natural spell + summon spells) Wizard: Battlefield control spells, scry/teleport (travel and recon), save or die spells Cleric: Healing (w/ reach spell), Archery (divine power, strength bow, zen archery), utility spells (restoration, raise dead, etc) Without even taking prestige classes into consideration, this party is teh nutz. Yep. You guessed it exactly. This party would be pretty strong straight 20 all around, even without the PrCs. Oddly (nicely) enough, the next game I'm running (with 3 players), they're planning on doing cleric, druid, and wizard. Too bad I don't have a forth player... :P
danielinthewolvesden 06-20-07, 01:19 PM	Ranger gets Trapfinding as a alternate in Dungeonscape.