Alternate Rogue classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Rogue classes? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShadowDragoon
07-13-05, 04:25 PM I'm hoping you guys have some ideas on this. I'm looking for some alternate Rogue classes. I like playing the rogue, but I'm not a fan of playing in the shadows every second. Basically, I'm looking for a class that's similar to the Swashbuckler kit in the old D&D 2.0 rules. Does anybody have any ideas on similar classes? I mean, I know I could just go Fighter or something, but I'm looking for a class that can open locks and pick pockets and sneak past enemies, but can also be half-useful in a fight.
Zsasz_Diedne
07-13-05, 04:42 PM Well there is the Swashbuckler core class in Complete Warrior, a little multi into Rogue and/or PrC'ing with the Duelist might be up your alley. If you do go duelist try to get your DM to Rule 0 the class level based limitation on Int to AC, or you'll be stuck wearing light armor for four to five levels.

The Invisible Blade is another way to go if you don't mind being relegated to daggers or kukris in combat; sneak attack, feint as a free action and Int to AC as well. Be sure and look up the errata'd feat prereqs if your using the 5 level version.

The Scout from Complete Adventurer is also very good for that type of thing, and many other concepts as well.

If you don't mind playing a Halfling, take a gander at the Whisperknife in Races of the Wild, very nice PrC.

And yes, a few levels of Fighter is the tried and true default method for better combat effectiveness as a Rogue-ish kinda PC, 2-4 levels max though, can be very helpful for meeting feat prereqs.

Good Luck!
Worloth Kangro
07-13-05, 04:52 PM Zsasz_Diedne, or anyone for that matter, could you give me a link to the errata for the invisible blade? I've been looking for it and I have had no luck. Thanks a bunch!
ShadowDragoon
07-13-05, 05:11 PM Well, now see, my Rogue is a dual-wielding Elf, with the Longsword as his main weapon (I have no preference on the off-hand weapon. Just, whatever the best weapon is I can find). So, I don't really care for the Whisperknife or Invisible Blade. Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it?
DrMorganes
07-13-05, 05:12 PM Truth be told, I find the rogue to be the single most versitile class in the game. With 8 skill points per level and a huge number of class skills, you have many, many options available to you. Ferinstance, I've built rogues using the following concepts:
Charlatan: High CHA and INT, with Use Magic Device maxed at all times. Lots of points into Bluff, at least 5 points into Decipher Script (for that +2 synergy bonus to UMD when using scrolls), etc. Sleight of Hand, Sense Motive, Forgery, Disguise, and Gather Information were also high on the list. Search, Hide, Move Silently, and Disable Device were on the skill list as well, but were not a high on the priority list. The idea here is the rogue is fascinated by magic, but has little true magical ability. The character I built used her skills to pull off various scams.
Diplomat: High CHA and WIS, with max ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. Toss in some Forgery and this guy can not only talk his way out of trouble, but get someone else to do his dirty work and pay HIM for the privelege.
Master Spy: High DEX and WIS, moderate CHA, loading ranks into sneaky skills (Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Sleight of Hand) along with Disguise and Forgery. Search, Spot, Disable Device, Gather Info, Bluff, Sense Motive are also on the list, but not quite as high. UMD is useful for augmenting, but not strictly necessary. The focus of this character is to get in, find what is secret, and get out without anyone ever knowing he was there.
Assassin: Not the PrC necessarily, but someone who excels at guerilla tactics to take down a single target. High DEX and INT, moderate UMD. Skills focus on stealth.
Cat Burgler: Very similar to the Master Spy in terms of skills, but Spot, Search, and Disable Device are much higher on the skill list. A soloist who can get in ANYWHERE and take ANYTHING. Differences with Master Spy are primarily in motivation and goals. The Master Spy is after information, where the Cat Burgler is after goods.
All of these are played straight rogue - no multiclassing, no prestige classes.

Other options include wilderness rogues, the rogue-like classes and prestige classes in Complete Adventurer, spellthief, psychic rogue, and a host of multiclassing options. Rogue is a good multiclass partner with nearly any other class, if only for the skill points.

One of my favorite NPCs is a Neutral Evil psychic rogue. Brrrrr.... nasty, that one.
DrMorganes
07-13-05, 05:16 PM Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it?Nope. It's a non-SRD class preseted in Complete Adventurer. In a nutshell, however, the scout is a great non-magical ranger variant. Lots of skills (including Survival) and skill points, bonus feats (Track is one), and new class ability called Skirmish that does extra damage in rounds where you move at least 10', enhanced movement, increased AC and Saves while moving. Blindsense and blindsight at later levels.

Scouts essentially see the land as terrain to move through, and don't share the ranger's mystical link with Nature.

All in all, if you like rogues, Complete Adventurer is pretty much a must-have in my opinion.
ShadowDragoon
07-13-05, 05:20 PM Well, the rogue is definately my favored class. Thanks for the help. I'll have to see if I can scrounge up enough money to buy the Complete Adventurer. How much does that sell for? $30 like the PHB and DMGs?
HappyDragon
07-13-05, 05:20 PM Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it?

No link to help out sorry. But think of the Scout as a kind of cross between rangers and rogues. It's not quite one or the other, but yet has similar elements to both.

Although the scout wont have any problems sneaking past enemies and potentially being more useful in combat, (although that last one can be up to debate depending on who yu talk to), they wont be able to help out much with your want to open locks and pick pockets.
raidensnake_2k4
07-13-05, 05:27 PM u could get the book cheap off amazon.
ShadowDragoon
07-13-05, 05:33 PM I don't order stuff over the internet.
ShadowDragoon
07-13-05, 05:52 PM Oh, real quick question: DOes anybody know where I can find some v2.0 character sheets to download anywhere? I mean, I know wizards.com has v3.0 and 3.5, but I'm looking for the older ones.
Drakos
07-14-05, 10:10 AM The Invisible Blade is another way to go if you don't mind being relegated to daggers or kukris in combat; sneak attack, feint as a free action and Int to AC as well. Be sure and look up the errata'd feat prereqs if your using the 5 level version.
I don't find any official errata for the prereqs to take the Invisible Blade. One of my DM's house ruled it, but nothing official. In fact there doesn't seem to be a Complete Warriors eratta on the Wizards site (nor Complete Adventurer either).

If there is official errata please post a link, I would love to see it.
ShadowDragoon
07-15-05, 06:51 PM I'll second that. The only errata I can every find is from the base rules, not from any of the expanded rules, either from Dragon Magazine, or any of the Campaign books.
Zsasz_Diedne
07-16-05, 12:08 AM I *believe* Sonofapreacherman (the author of the class) posted either here or on his site's forums suggesting what to replace far shot and point blank shot with, which is about as official as it's likely to get, so happy hunting on that one, as I recall Weapon Finesse was the suggested replacement for Far Shot and PBS.
ShadowDragoon
07-18-05, 05:43 PM *bump*
HappyDragon
07-18-05, 09:12 PM Can't help with the character sheets, but here's the link for the Invisible Blade 10 level class. Hope it's what you were looking for. :)

http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm
dawgfan
07-18-05, 11:24 PM I would suggest something like Rog3/Sws3/Ftr4/Duelist10 and use an elven thinblade found in CW or Races of Wild, gives you kinda a longsword feel while still using a qualifyed weapon for swash and duelist, though you wont be able to dual weild. I hop its something like what you were looking for and good luck.
ShadowDragoon
07-20-05, 06:33 PM ...no offense, but that combination would completely suck. For one, I think I specifically mentioned I don't want to multi-class. For two, that would be too much hastle to try messing with FOUR classes...God only knows two is enough...I'd get to confused. Three, I'll most likely be using my character for low-level campaigns, and right there you have a level 20 character. So, thanks for trying, but you're selling that setup to the wrong person.
Nephlite
07-20-05, 07:04 PM I'm hoping you guys have some ideas on this. I'm looking for some alternate Rogue classes. I like playing the rogue, but I'm not a fan of playing in the shadows every second. Basically, I'm looking for a class that's similar to the Swashbuckler kit in the old D&D 2.0 rules. Does anybody have any ideas on similar classes? I mean, I know I could just go Fighter or something, but I'm looking for a class that can open locks and pick pockets and sneak past enemies, but can also be half-useful in a fight.

The Martial Rogue kinda fits: He gets bonus feats insterad of Sneak Attack.

The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully.
MARTIAL ROGUE
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d6.

Class Skills
The rogue's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x?4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

Table: The Martial Rogue
Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Bonus Feat, trapfinding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Bonus Feat, trap sense +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Trap sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Bonus Feat
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Bonus Feat, trap sense +3
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Special ability
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Bonus Feat
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Trap sense +4
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Bonus Feat, special ability
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Bonus Feat, trap sense +5
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Special ability
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Bonus Feat
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Trap sense +6
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Bonus Feat, special ability
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 —

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the rogue.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Martial Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a Martial Rogue gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The Rogue gains an additional bonus feat at 3rd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A Rogue must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A Rogue is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feat
Trapfinding: Martial Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Martial rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a martial rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Martial rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a martial rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.
Special Abilities List:
1) Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
2) Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability
3) Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
4) Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
5) Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue's attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
6) Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw
7) Saboteur: You may make sneak attacks against constructs. Also may ignore � Sneak attack dice in hardness of an object when Sundering or striking an object.
8) Knockout Blow: On a sneak attack were you deal nonlethal damage, you may instead attempt a knockout blow. If attack succeeds, deal no damage, but stun them for 1d6 rounds. Fort Negate, Dc 15 + Dice # of Sneak attacks)
9) Light Sleeper: No longer have -10 penalty to listen while asleep.
10) Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
ShadowDragoon
07-21-05, 04:56 PM Dear Lord, that is PERFECT!! You are a godsend!!! THANK YOU!!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowDragoon 07-13-05, 04:25 PM	I'm hoping you guys have some ideas on this. I'm looking for some alternate Rogue classes. I like playing the rogue, but I'm not a fan of playing in the shadows every second. Basically, I'm looking for a class that's similar to the Swashbuckler kit in the old D&D 2.0 rules. Does anybody have any ideas on similar classes? I mean, I know I could just go Fighter or something, but I'm looking for a class that can open locks and pick pockets and sneak past enemies, but can also be half-useful in a fight.
Zsasz_Diedne 07-13-05, 04:42 PM	Well there is the Swashbuckler core class in Complete Warrior, a little multi into Rogue and/or PrC'ing with the Duelist might be up your alley. If you do go duelist try to get your DM to Rule 0 the class level based limitation on Int to AC, or you'll be stuck wearing light armor for four to five levels. The Invisible Blade is another way to go if you don't mind being relegated to daggers or kukris in combat; sneak attack, feint as a free action and Int to AC as well. Be sure and look up the errata'd feat prereqs if your using the 5 level version. The Scout from Complete Adventurer is also very good for that type of thing, and many other concepts as well. If you don't mind playing a Halfling, take a gander at the Whisperknife in Races of the Wild, very nice PrC. And yes, a few levels of Fighter is the tried and true default method for better combat effectiveness as a Rogue-ish kinda PC, 2-4 levels max though, can be very helpful for meeting feat prereqs. Good Luck!
Worloth Kangro 07-13-05, 04:52 PM	Zsasz_Diedne, or anyone for that matter, could you give me a link to the errata for the invisible blade? I've been looking for it and I have had no luck. Thanks a bunch!
ShadowDragoon 07-13-05, 05:11 PM	Well, now see, my Rogue is a dual-wielding Elf, with the Longsword as his main weapon (I have no preference on the off-hand weapon. Just, whatever the best weapon is I can find). So, I don't really care for the Whisperknife or Invisible Blade. Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it?
DrMorganes 07-13-05, 05:12 PM	Truth be told, I find the rogue to be the single most versitile class in the game. With 8 skill points per level and a huge number of class skills, you have many, many options available to you. Ferinstance, I've built rogues using the following concepts: Charlatan: High CHA and INT, with Use Magic Device maxed at all times. Lots of points into Bluff, at least 5 points into Decipher Script (for that +2 synergy bonus to UMD when using scrolls), etc. Sleight of Hand, Sense Motive, Forgery, Disguise, and Gather Information were also high on the list. Search, Hide, Move Silently, and Disable Device were on the skill list as well, but were not a high on the priority list. The idea here is the rogue is fascinated by magic, but has little true magical ability. The character I built used her skills to pull off various scams. Diplomat: High CHA and WIS, with max ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. Toss in some Forgery and this guy can not only talk his way out of trouble, but get someone else to do his dirty work and pay HIM for the privelege. Master Spy: High DEX and WIS, moderate CHA, loading ranks into sneaky skills (Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Sleight of Hand) along with Disguise and Forgery. Search, Spot, Disable Device, Gather Info, Bluff, Sense Motive are also on the list, but not quite as high. UMD is useful for augmenting, but not strictly necessary. The focus of this character is to get in, find what is secret, and get out without anyone ever knowing he was there. Assassin: Not the PrC necessarily, but someone who excels at guerilla tactics to take down a single target. High DEX and INT, moderate UMD. Skills focus on stealth. Cat Burgler: Very similar to the Master Spy in terms of skills, but Spot, Search, and Disable Device are much higher on the skill list. A soloist who can get in ANYWHERE and take ANYTHING. Differences with Master Spy are primarily in motivation and goals. The Master Spy is after information, where the Cat Burgler is after goods. All of these are played straight rogue - no multiclassing, no prestige classes. Other options include wilderness rogues, the rogue-like classes and prestige classes in Complete Adventurer, spellthief, psychic rogue, and a host of multiclassing options. Rogue is a good multiclass partner with nearly any other class, if only for the skill points. One of my favorite NPCs is a Neutral Evil psychic rogue. Brrrrr.... nasty, that one.
DrMorganes 07-13-05, 05:16 PM	Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it?Nope. It's a non-SRD class preseted in Complete Adventurer. In a nutshell, however, the scout is a great non-magical ranger variant. Lots of skills (including Survival) and skill points, bonus feats (Track is one), and new class ability called Skirmish that does extra damage in rounds where you move at least 10', enhanced movement, increased AC and Saves while moving. Blindsense and blindsight at later levels. Scouts essentially see the land as terrain to move through, and don't share the ranger's mystical link with Nature. All in all, if you like rogues, Complete Adventurer is pretty much a must-have in my opinion.
ShadowDragoon 07-13-05, 05:20 PM	Well, the rogue is definately my favored class. Thanks for the help. I'll have to see if I can scrounge up enough money to buy the Complete Adventurer. How much does that sell for? $30 like the PHB and DMGs?
HappyDragon 07-13-05, 05:20 PM	Though, the Scout sounds like it might be interesting. Do you have a link to the info on it? No link to help out sorry. But think of the Scout as a kind of cross between rangers and rogues. It's not quite one or the other, but yet has similar elements to both. Although the scout wont have any problems sneaking past enemies and potentially being more useful in combat, (although that last one can be up to debate depending on who yu talk to), they wont be able to help out much with your want to open locks and pick pockets.
raidensnake_2k4 07-13-05, 05:27 PM	u could get the book cheap off amazon.
ShadowDragoon 07-13-05, 05:33 PM	I don't order stuff over the internet.
ShadowDragoon 07-13-05, 05:52 PM	Oh, real quick question: DOes anybody know where I can find some v2.0 character sheets to download anywhere? I mean, I know wizards.com has v3.0 and 3.5, but I'm looking for the older ones.
Drakos 07-14-05, 10:10 AM	The Invisible Blade is another way to go if you don't mind being relegated to daggers or kukris in combat; sneak attack, feint as a free action and Int to AC as well. Be sure and look up the errata'd feat prereqs if your using the 5 level version. I don't find any official errata for the prereqs to take the Invisible Blade. One of my DM's house ruled it, but nothing official. In fact there doesn't seem to be a Complete Warriors eratta on the Wizards site (nor Complete Adventurer either). If there is official errata please post a link, I would love to see it.
ShadowDragoon 07-15-05, 06:51 PM	I'll second that. The only errata I can every find is from the base rules, not from any of the expanded rules, either from Dragon Magazine, or any of the Campaign books.
Zsasz_Diedne 07-16-05, 12:08 AM	I believe Sonofapreacherman (the author of the class) posted either here or on his site's forums suggesting what to replace far shot and point blank shot with, which is about as official as it's likely to get, so happy hunting on that one, as I recall Weapon Finesse was the suggested replacement for Far Shot and PBS.
ShadowDragoon 07-18-05, 05:43 PM	bump
HappyDragon 07-18-05, 09:12 PM	Can't help with the character sheets, but here's the link for the Invisible Blade 10 level class. Hope it's what you were looking for. :) http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm
dawgfan 07-18-05, 11:24 PM	I would suggest something like Rog3/Sws3/Ftr4/Duelist10 and use an elven thinblade found in CW or Races of Wild, gives you kinda a longsword feel while still using a qualifyed weapon for swash and duelist, though you wont be able to dual weild. I hop its something like what you were looking for and good luck.
ShadowDragoon 07-20-05, 06:33 PM	...no offense, but that combination would completely suck. For one, I think I specifically mentioned I don't want to multi-class. For two, that would be too much hastle to try messing with FOUR classes...God only knows two is enough...I'd get to confused. Three, I'll most likely be using my character for low-level campaigns, and right there you have a level 20 character. So, thanks for trying, but you're selling that setup to the wrong person.
Nephlite 07-20-05, 07:04 PM	I'm hoping you guys have some ideas on this. I'm looking for some alternate Rogue classes. I like playing the rogue, but I'm not a fan of playing in the shadows every second. Basically, I'm looking for a class that's similar to the Swashbuckler kit in the old D&D 2.0 rules. Does anybody have any ideas on similar classes? I mean, I know I could just go Fighter or something, but I'm looking for a class that can open locks and pick pockets and sneak past enemies, but can also be half-useful in a fight. The Martial Rogue kinda fits: He gets bonus feats insterad of Sneak Attack. The rogue who favors martial training over stealth and cunning can profit if she chooses her fights carefully. MARTIAL ROGUE Alignment: Any. Hit Die: d6. Class Skills The rogue's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex). Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) x?4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier. Table: The Martial Rogue Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Bonus Feat, trapfinding 2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion 3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Bonus Feat, trap sense +1 4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Uncanny dodge 5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Bonus Feat 6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Trap sense +2 7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Bonus Feat 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Bonus Feat, trap sense +3 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Special ability 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Bonus Feat 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Trap sense +4 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Bonus Feat, special ability 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 — 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Bonus Feat, trap sense +5 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Special ability 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Bonus Feat 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Trap sense +6 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Bonus Feat, special ability 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 — Class Features All of the following are class features of the rogue. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Martial Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a Martial Rogue gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The Rogue gains an additional bonus feat at 3rd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A Rogue must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums. These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A Rogue is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feat Trapfinding: Martial Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it. Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Martial rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion. Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a martial rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Martial rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character. Special Abilities: On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a martial rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options. Special Abilities List: 1) Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. 2) Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability 3) Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. 4) Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time. 5) Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue's attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round. 6) Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw 7) Saboteur: You may make sneak attacks against constructs. Also may ignore � Sneak attack dice in hardness of an object when Sundering or striking an object. 8) Knockout Blow: On a sneak attack were you deal nonlethal damage, you may instead attempt a knockout blow. If attack succeeds, deal no damage, but stun them for 1d6 rounds. Fort Negate, Dc 15 + Dice # of Sneak attacks) 9) Light Sleeper: No longer have -10 penalty to listen while asleep. 10) Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
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