Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yak of Darkness 03-07-05, 11:24 AM	So, I'm looking through my brother's copy of Complete Warrior and figuring out how to integrate all the nifty things in it into my campaign world (damn, that's a fine supplement, by the way; not sure if I like it better than CA, but still . . .) when I come across the samurai. The samurai's not a great class, but it (IMO) provides an interesting spin on things, especially a LG samurai compared to a paladin, so it's in. Still, while I was looking at it, I thought that something was off about the picture. At first I thought it was because the 'pic was kind of goofy looking (and it is), but then I realized the problem: A dwarf is carrying a katana. Blasphemy! I understand that the class is supposed to be "Asian" styled, but my D&D game, and most others that I know, don't actually have Asia in it. And as the samurai come off as the ultimate clan protector, it only makes sense that a dwarf would pack a dwarven weapon. So, as it's physically impossible for me to leave well enough alone, I'm trying to suss out what would be good racial weapons for other races' daisho. Right now I've got: Humans: Katana and wakizashi Dwarves: Dwarven waraxe and handaxe Elves: Elven thinblade (or lightblade . . . whichever one of those is heavier) and shortsword Can anyone help me out with what weapons might be good for some other common races' samurai (halflings, gnomes, orcs, goblinoids, lizardfolk, gnolls, ogres, etc.)?
Yak of Darkness 03-07-05, 02:05 PM	:bump: But only because it's about to be scrolled away.
viski 03-07-05, 03:43 PM	Run your game however you want, but I think it's a folly to limit the weapons a character can have by race at all. If you want to make restrictions based on culture, I could understand, but what if a dwarf was raised in human culture? Should he still have dwarven restrictions simply based on the fact that he was born short and stocky? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanatos02 03-07-05, 03:55 PM	As always, it depends on your game, however, I'll offer my thoughts. First, Samurai (and Ninja) have gotten their own base classes, which is peachy and all, but IMO there are a few problems. The Samurai doesn't have to have an Asian theme, but without it, seperating a Samurai from a Fighter seems problematic. However, you've probably already considered all of the aspects of adding a Samurai-like Clan Protector to your game, so I won't drag this too far off the mark. (Though, might I recommend OA's Samurai class instead? Or something from the boards?) So, it comes down to weapons, really. A Katana is a Bastard Sword, in all actuality. My question for you is, why is a Human's ancestral weapon combination a Bastard Sword and a Short Sword? Why wouldn't Dwarves use a Bastard Sword in combat as an ancestral weapon? Do you consider it unusual that an Elves favored weapons are Exotic? Without an Asia, you have to draw a Bastard Sword/Short Sword combo from somewhere, but Western combatants didn't usually do that. I'd consider a Sword + Sheild (w/sheild bash feats) combo if you use two weapons. It's not out of line to consider a Rapier + Short Sword or Dagger (or buckler) combo either. Those seem more likely from a western perspective. In D&D, Dwarves are fully capable of using a bastard sword just as well as any human ever did. But when switching weapons, be sure to consider to use Martial weapons. Don't scale up or down to Simple or Exotic to keep game balance. Hand Axe + Dwarven (or Battle) axe is ok for two weapons, or Axe+Short Sword or something akin to that. That's if Dwarves prefer axes in your game. (I'm not totally sure of why Dwarves love axes so much anyhow...) Elves seem more like a long sword + short sword group to me. In fact, that's what they use in my game. Give 'em a feat at first level that lets 'em finesse a longsword and it gives them an advantage that switching from bastard doesn't. Rapier is ok too, but personally, I dislike the Thinblade and its friends.
legowarrior 03-07-05, 04:20 PM	I'm afraid I have to disagree with Thantos02. I think it would scale very well, especially since Samurai's get a free feat in exotic weapons. Why should other races get the same bonus from taking a Samurai class that is similar. The idea of a samuria is an honorable warrior that use two weapons and has some other cool abilities, at least in D&D. There is no reason why other races couldn't develope the same kind of class. I think the idea for elves is cool, but the problem with your dwarven samuria (or protector) is that they lose out. They already get the dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon, so you should see about giving them another feat (i know I am going to get a lot of flak for that, but I hate losing feats) For the gnomes and halflngs I don't know. The gnomes could use the tortosie bladeshield thingy. An alternative could be to give each of your Racial Samurai's improved Racial Weapon familiarity. Samurais like katana's why can't elven cultures use Thinblades. You still end up with the same problem with Halflings, but I think it would work quite well.
Yak of Darkness 03-07-05, 05:11 PM	@ viski: I think we're miscommunicating here. I'm not trying to make it so X race can only use Y weapons, but instead to alter the CW samurai (which is already fixed into the katana-wakizashi fighting style in the book) so different races, as samurai, use the weapons they're more commonly associated with (it is, after all, a dwarven waraxe ;) ). @ Thanatos: The only reason I'm using the CW samurai instead of something like OA is simply because I don't own Oriental Adventures (technically, I don't own CW, either, but I have reasonable free access to it). I hear those classes are quite nice, though. And the idea of an always-lawful warrior devoted not to a god or ideal but to a lord seemed to jump out at me as the "protect the homeland" type. Since the katana (or bastard sword) is an exotic weapon when used one-handed, I don't really see the problem with using the elven thinblade. As you said, there's a balance issue in weapon selection, and I'm trying to keep it to the "one-handed-exotic, light-martial" combination the default (default being human IMC) samurai has. I do like your TWF sword and board idea, though, with Improved Shield Bash replacing an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Although I'm not sure about balance (not because I doubt it, but because I'm just terrible at figuring out those kinds of things), that's definitely a workable idea (and fun, too . . . how often does somebody really expect to get smacked upside the head with a shield at the end of a full attack?). @ legowarrior: I hadn't thought about the dwarf's waraxe familiarity, but you're right, they would kind of get hosed with this. Maybe something like Weapon Focus (waraxe) could serve as a replacement for the EWP, but again, I'm not sure if that would over or underpower them (and if it did, whether or not it was enough of an imbalance to matter). I had forgotten about that tortoise shield thingy. That could work. Maybe some kind of pick as their main weapon? Thanks to everyone for their comments. Keep 'em coming. :D
viski 03-07-05, 05:51 PM	Ooooooh, I see! ^__^ Sorry!
Thanatos02 03-07-05, 06:02 PM	Hmm. I didn't take into consideration the exotic use of a Bastard Sword as a one-handed weapon, which is uncharacteristic of me. I don't think, in retrospect, that using an exotic weapon is terribly off-balancing, and I might go and check the samurai class later to look for suitable weapons. I think Two-Weapon Fighting along with a normal sheild bash then throwing in Improved Shild Bash as it climbs in levels might be acceptable as far as balance goes. Or use Improved Sheild Bash as the equivelent of an Exotic Weapon Pro. Hmmm.... As for Gnomes, how about using the Gnome Hooked Hammer? They get a proficientcy with it, but not the ability to use both ends... Halflings seems like a Shortsword/Shortsword race, but this isn't that great. Maybe Kukri/Kukri? Man, I got nothing. A Trident/Net combo makes sense for an aquatic race. Orcs have their Double Axe. Dwarves might opt for the Urgrosh polearm. I know in Comp. Adven. there are a couple of double-weapon feat chains, and those might be applicable. Anyhow, just throwing ideas out there.
Warchicken 03-08-05, 12:21 PM	Samurais don't get to carry shields, they get all of the Armor Proficiences, but none of the Shield Proficiences. I should know, I've played as a LE Human Samurai. (Yes you can be LE as a Samurai, the only stipulation is that the character has to be Lawful) It really isn't a variant fighter class at all, there's parts of it that can be duplicated by being a fighter, but others like getting Greater TWF without having the really high DEX is something that many fighters won't get. If you really want the variants, just use OA and the different Clans and their weapons instead of the base Daisho pairing for the Samurai. That would give your characters a bit more flavor and you still get access to different weapons.
Yak of Darkness 03-08-05, 12:37 PM	Heh, I didn't know the different OA clan samurai used different weapons. I may have to end up looking into that.
Warchicken 03-09-05, 12:51 PM	They also had different feats available to them and abilities. If I remember correctly only one of the Clans actually got TWF and the rest just used their Katanas as a two-handed weapon (the way the Samurai actually weilded them).