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| RavenDrake06-27-05, 09:33 PM | Now, I'm a fan of the Sorcererous spellcasters. I really like the magic idea... but It seems so arbitrary for the Sorcerer to get nothing but arcane magic. Even with the extra spells per day, they lose out on FIVE feats to thier nearest comparable class(Wizard). They get not class abilities, no bonus feats... they don't even get the Skill point bonuses inherent to the Wizard due to thier reliance on High Int. In essence, they're Commoners with Spells. And I'm more than sure these concearns have been brought up before by someone. And it's likely that one or more of the Idea's I've come up with below may have been mentioned before. However, I'm simply putting foward my ideas. I don't have access to all the various sourcebooks, not even the ones WotC puts out much less any third party ones, so feel free to bring to my attention any of these that might have been already mentioned or dealt with. Savant Savants are magically attuned beings who are not so much skilled in magic as naturally adept. They have a natural sorcerous nature, and a tie to magic that gives them access to a variety of special abilities. Savants are typically tied to a secific school of magic, thier Spark, which they draw on for most of thier power... but this access restricts thier spell lists in other ways. Savant's are named according to the school of magic they have power in. See below: Abjuration: Disjoiner - Savants who use thier magic to repel others, dispose of magics, and cancel effects Conjuration: Enjoiner- These powerful savants are able to materialise items from nowhere and call others to thier aid. Divination: Auspex - Savants skilled in the knowledge of the future and seeing beyond the now. Enchantment: Spellbinder - A savant who's skills give them magic to bind the wills of others to thier own. Evocation: Wakener - These powerful Savants can summon forth the elemental powers to do thier bidding. Illusion: Montebank - Powerful illusions allow this savant to fool all those around him into doing his will. Necromancy: Haruspex - Savants with necromantic powers who can raise and control the dead. Transmutation: Harmonizer - Savants gifted in Tranmutation magic, harmonizers can alter themselves and those around them with powerful magics. Alignment: Any Hit Die: D4 Skills The Savants class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device(Cha). Savant's get (2 + Int Modifier) x 4 skill points at first level. Savant's get 2 + Int Modifier Skill points each additional level. The Savant Level BAB Fort Ref Wil Spells Per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 5 3 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 6 4 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 6 5 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 3 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 4 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 6 6 5 3 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 6 6 6 4 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 6 6 6 5 3 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 6 6 6 6 4 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 5 3 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 6 4 12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Savant Class Abilities Level Special Ability Spells Known 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st Summon Familiar, Spark 4 2 2nd 5 2 3rd 5 3 4th Spell-like Ability 1/0/0/0 6 3 1 5th 6 4 2 6th 7 4 2 1 7th 7 5 3 2 8th Spell-like Ability 1/1/0/0 8 5 3 2 1 9th 8 5 4 3 2 10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 12th Spell-like Ability 2/1/1/0 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 16th Spell-like Ability 3/2/1/1 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 20th Spell-like Ability 3/3/2/1 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 Class Features Savants are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Savant's gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Spells A Savant casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). To learn or cast a spell, a Savant must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Savants spell is 10 + the spell level + the Savants Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Savant can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Savant. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. A Savants selection of spells is extremely limited. A Savant begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Savant level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Savant Class Abilities. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Savant knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Savant Class Abilities are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Savant has gained some understanding of by study. The Savant cant use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Savant level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Savant can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Savant "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Savant spell the Savant can cast. A Savant may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Savant need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells hell cast. Familiar A Savant can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant. The Savant chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the Savant advances in level, his familiar also increases in power. If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the Savant, the Savant must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per Savant level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a Savants experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiars demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs. A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time. Spark(Extraordinary) A Savant is gifted with exceptional magial energy within a certain category of magic. While his understanding of other magics is limited, he gains a much greater understanding of the school of magic his Spark comes from. A Savant must select one school of magic as thier Spark. Depending on which school of magic a Savant's Spark is in, he gains a +1 to the DC of all spells of that School, and a +2 to all caster level checks made on spells of that school. These bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Save DCs and Caster Level Checks. However, when they choose thier Spark, they must also choose three other Forbidden Schools. Like a specialist Wizard, a Savant can never learn or cast any spell from a Forbbiden school, even through items like Wands and Scrolls. A Savant can never change which school of magic they have the Spark in. Spell-Like Abilities(Spell-like) Savant's gain access to a variety of spell like abilities based on thier spark. Starting at fourth level, and ever four levels after that, they gain access to a new spell-like ability, or extra use of a spell like ability. The Save DC for all of these spell-like abilities is 11 + the Character's level of Savant + The Savant's Charisma Modifier. The Spell like abilities depend on the choice of the Savant's Spark, see below. Auspex: Comprehend Languages; Detect Thoughts; Clairaudience\Clairvoyance; Scrying Disjoiner: Shield; Resist Energy; Nondetection; Stoneskin Enjoiner: Mage Armour; Acid Arrow; Phantom Steed; Demension Door Harmonizer: Featherfall; Alter Self; Fly; Polymorph Haruspex: Chill Touch; Command Undead; Ray of Exhaustion; Fear Montebank: Disguise Self; Blur; Major Image; Greater Invisibility Spellbinder: Charm Person; Hideous Laughter; Suggestion; Confusion Wakener: Magic Missle; Shatter; Daylight; Resilient Sphere Journeyman The Journeyman is a sorcerous caster that has choosen to put thier study of worldly skills on equal par with thier magical aptitude. With thier magic to aid and support them, many Journyman Sorcerer's have learned a number of useful skills and abilities that facilitate thier lives as adventurers and exploreres. A Journeyman gains and casts spells a sorcerer does. Alignment: Any Hit Die: D4 Skills: The Journeyman's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), and Spellcraft (Int). Additionally, a Journeyman may select 5 plus their Int Bonus (Maximum 10) skills as additional Class skills at first level. A Journeyman gets (4 + Int Modifier) x 4 skill points at first level. A Journeyman gets 4 + Int Modifier skill points per additional level. The Journeyman Level BAB Fort Ref Wil Spells Per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 5 3 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 6 4 3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 6 5 4th +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 3 5th +2 +1 +1 +4 6 6 4 6th +3 +2 +2 +5 6 6 5 3 7th +3 +2 +2 +5 6 6 6 4 8th +4 +2 +2 +6 6 6 6 5 3 9th +4 +3 +3 +6 6 6 6 6 4 10th +5 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 5 3 11th +5 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 6 4 12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Journeyman Class Abilities Level Special Ability Spells Known 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st Scribe Scroll, Arcane Affinity 4 2 2nd 5 2 3rd 5 3 4th 6 3 1 5th Bonus Feat 6 4 2 6th 7 4 2 1 7th 7 5 3 2 8th 8 5 3 2 1 9th 8 5 4 3 2 10th Bonus Feat 9 5 4 3 2 1 11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 15th Bonus Feat 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 20th Bonus Feat 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 Class Features Journeyman are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Journeyman's gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Spells A Journeyman casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below). To learn or cast a spell, a Journeyman must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Journeymans spell is 10 + the spell level + the Journeymans Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Journeyman can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Journeyman. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. A Journeymans selection of spells is extremely limited. A Journeyman begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Journeyman level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Journeyman Class Abilities. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Journeyman knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Journeyman Class Abilities are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Journeyman has gained some understanding of by study. The Journeyman cant use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Journeyman level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Journeyman can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Journeyman "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Journeyman spell the Journeyman can cast. A Journeyman may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Journeyman need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells hell cast. Scribe Scroll At first level a Journeyman gains Scribe Scroll as a Bonus feat. Arcane Affinity Journeyman are not automatically gifted with the knowledge to summon a familiar, but they can gain such through certain rituals and studies. A Journeyman may take the feat Summon Familiar any time they could gain a feat, including as a bonus feat. Bonus Feat A Journeyman continues to study and explore, and thier continued aquisition of knowledge relflects this. A Journeyman may take as a bonus feat Any Metamagic feat, Any Item Creation feat, the Summon Familier Feat(Special), or the Gain Aptitude Feat(Special). Journeyman Feats(Special) Summon Familiar[General] This feat allows you to gain and use a familiar as a Wizard or Sorcerer would Prerequisites Ability to cast Arcane Spells, Journeyman Level 1st. Benefit You gain a Familiar. See the Summon Familiar entry under Wizard/Sorcerer for more information. Special You cannot gain this feat more than once. Gain Aptitude[General] You become more adept, and can learn a new skill with greater ease. Prerequisites Journeyman level 5th. Benefit Choose any one skill. That skill becomes a class skill for you. Any previous ranks in that skill purchased as cross class remain as they were, but all future ranks are purchased as a class skill. Special You may take this feat more than once. It's benefits do not stack. You must choose a different skill to become a class skill each time you take this feat. Scion The scion is a mystic spellcaster who derives thier magic from a natural divinity. Rather than necessarily drawing on a holy diety's power, they focus thier natural magic through meditation and personal devoition. Scion's gain clerical powers, but gain and cast thier spells(drawn from the Cleric spell list) as Sorcerers do, though still as divine spells. A Scion does not have to worship any diety to gain access to thier spells, though a Scion who does worship a specific diety faces no special bonuses or restrictions. Hit Die: D8 Alignment: Any Skills The Scions class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). Domains and Class Skills A Scion who chooses the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int) to the Scion class skills listed above. A Scion who chooses the Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge (Int) skills to the list. A Scion who chooses the Travel domain adds Survival (Wis) to the list. A Scion who chooses the Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Hide (Dex) to the list. See Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells, below, for more information. A Scion gets (2 + Int Modifier) x 4 skill points at first level. A Scion gets 2 + Int Modifier skill points per additional level. The Scion Level BAB Fort Ref Wil Spells Per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st +0 +0 +0 +2 5 3 2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 6 4 3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 6 5 4th +3 +1 +1 +4 6 6 3 5th +3 +1 +1 +4 6 6 4 6th +4 +2 +2 +5 6 6 5 3 7th +5 +2 +2 +5 6 6 6 4 8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 6 6 6 5 3 9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 6 6 6 6 4 10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 5 3 11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 6 6 6 6 6 4 12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 14th +10/+5 +4 +4 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 19th +13/+9/+4 +6 +6 +11 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 Scion Class Abilities Level Special Ability Spells Known 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st Turn or Rebuke Undead, Summon 4 2 Chayyot 2nd 5 2 3rd 5 3 4th 6 3 1 5th 6 4 2 6th 7 4 2 1 7th 7 5 3 2 8th 8 5 3 2 1 9th 8 5 4 3 2 10th 9 5 4 3 2 1 11th 9 5 5 4 3 2 12th 9 5 5 4 3 2 1 13th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 14th 9 5 5 4 4 3 2 1 15th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 16th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 2 1 17th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 18th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 19th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 20th 9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 Class Features All of the following are class features of the Scion. Weapon and Armor Proficiency Scions are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields). Scions are Divine casters and do not suffer from Arcane Spell Failure penalties from wearing armour. A Scion who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deitys weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category. Aura (Ex) Because Scion's have a strong personal dedication and belief, a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful scion has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to his or her alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Spells A Scion casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a Scion must (see below). To learn or cast a spell, a Scion must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Scions spell is 10 + the spell level + the Scions Charisma modifier. Like other spellcasters, a Scion can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Scion. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. Alternately, a Scion also knows spells from thier selected Domain. A Scion may cast any domain spell spontaniously by giving up any available spell slot of an equal or greater level . A Scion's selection of spells is extremely limited. A Scion begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Scion level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Scion Class Abilities. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Scion knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Scion Class Abilities are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the cleric spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Scion has gained some understanding of by study. The Scion cant use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however. Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Scion level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Scion can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Scion "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Scion spell the Scion can cast. A Scion may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. Unlike a wizard or a Cleric, a Scion need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells hell cast. Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells A Scions diety or personal morals influence his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A Scion chooses one domain from among those belonging to his deity, or that correspond to his personal beliefs. A Scion can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain. A Scion gains the Domain's power, and the domain's spell list. A Scion can Spontaneously cast any domain spell on his domain list by giving up any one available spell slot of equal or higher level. Spontaneous Casting A good Scion (or a neutral Scion who chooses too) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the Scion did not prepare ahead of time. The Scion can "lose" any prepared spell slot in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name). An evil Scion (or a neutral Scion who chooses too), cant convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name). Neutral Scion's can choose whether they want to be able to spontaniously cast Cure or Inflict spells. Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the Scion turns or commands undead (see below). Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A Scion cant cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deitys (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su) Any Scion, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead). A good Scion (or a neutral Scion who chooses too) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil Scion (or a neutral Scion who chooses too) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral Scion must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good Scion or an evil Scion. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the Scion can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above). A Scion may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A Scion with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead. Bonus Languages A Scions bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race. Summon Chayyot A Scion can obtain a chayyot(a weak celestial or infernal animal familiar). Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A chayyot is an Outsider that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant. The Scion chooses the kind of chayyot he gets. As the Scion advances in level, his chayyot also increases in power. If the chayyot dies or is dismissed by the Scion, the Scion must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per Scion level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a Scions experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a chayyot's demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed chayyot cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain chayyot cannot be raised from the dead, but it can be revived via any spell that could restore an Outsider, such as wish or miracle. A character with a class that gains a familiar, such as srocerer, cannot also have a chayyot if the have a familier. Likewise, a Scion with a chayyot cannot also have a familiar. Aside from the creature being type outsider and having Darkvision 60feet this ability is identical to the Summon Familiar Feat. |
| XXIII06-27-05, 11:04 PM | honestly, I'm a HUGE fan of the Battle Sorcerer, from Unearth Arcana - I'm a hugmongous fan of that class....Makes a Tonne of sense to me :) that's just my two copper |
| Germytech06-28-05, 03:10 PM | Nice variants. I especially like the Savant, although I am biased. Check out my own tweaked sorcerer here (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=420378&origin=) and in my sig for the reason why. ;) |
| Koga:The ninja trick06-28-05, 05:15 PM | Actually, The Koga has to admit Dr@gon has done a good job of making the sorcerer a better class to be.. Bloodlines.. Knowstones.. Draconic Ray.. Spheres.. Bonus feats are good, but the wizard also is a headache to use, where as the sorcerer is simple yet effective. |
| Nuntius12806-28-05, 08:59 PM | Actually, The Koga has to admit Dr@gon has done a good job of making the sorcerer a better class to be.. Bloodlines.. Knowstones.. Draconic Ray.. Spheres.. Bonus feats are good, but the wizard also is a headache to use, where as the sorcerer is simple yet effective. Much agreement between the Koga and I on this. :D Also, RavenDrake, have you had a chance to look at Unearthed Arcana? You might be interested in the variant "Spellcaster" class, its a lot like Sorceror, but with extra kicks here and there(choose your class skills, bonus feats, etc). I think you might get quite a lot of use out of it, IMHO. |
| WarDragon06-28-05, 09:12 PM | Excellent variants, all of them. The Scion might be too similar to DragonLance's Mystic, though. Also, instead of saying they can spontaneously cast Domain and Cure/Inflict spells, why not give them to the Scion as bonus spells known? It comes out to the same effect. Which Dragon were Spheres in, and what are they (nothing copyright-busting, just the gist of it)? Oh, and if anyone's interested, here (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=534) is a variant Sorc of my own, with a few feats tossed in. |
| TheDarkestOfAngels06-28-05, 09:47 PM | Now, I'm a fan of the Sorcererous spellcasters. I really like the magic idea... but It seems so arbitrary for the Sorcerer to get nothing but arcane magic. Even with the extra spells per day, they lose out on FIVE feats to thier nearest comparable class(Wizard). They get not class abilities, no bonus feats... they don't even get the Skill point bonuses inherent to the Wizard due to thier reliance on High Int. In essence, they're Commoners with Spells. True, but so are wizards. Wizards just have a smidge more class abilities related to their spellcasting. Though anyone interested can see my own alternative (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=300670) to the sorcerer to see what I ultimately think what should happen to the sorcerer as far as improvements and varients - including a long list of 122 varients and alternates of the sorcerer from whatever I could find at the WotC boards as well as the arguements concerning the sorcerer's relative position on the class power scale. But anyway, I'm here to give a brief opinion on the varients that was mentioned by RavenDrake. Savant It's an interesting take on an old and hard-to-impliment idea, but I don't believe that the spell-like abilities add anything beyond what the sorcerer's overall spellcasting would grant. I mean, if someone were going for a themed sorcerer, they'd just pick spells that went along with that theme. The spell-like abilities save spell known slots, sure, but that just means that the sorcerer isn't picking those spells to add to his or her theme anyway, so it kinda defeats the purpose. On top of that, once the sorcerer grabs a hold of high level abilities, those spell like abilities are essentially rendered moot. The regular mid-high level themed sorcerer has a LOT of spells known and spells per day and, on top of being able to apply metamagic to his or her spells known, the huge spells/day essentially makes the additional spell-like abilities useless. In the link I provided above to my own alternate sorcerer, I also have a specialist sorcerer varient that I think you should take a look at to get an idea of what I think should be done, but this varient doesn't really add much in lieu of the sorcerer in the PHB. Journeyman It looks an interesting class, but its abilities don't appear to match its flavor text. It has lots of abilities, but they don't really denote a "traveler-oriented sorcerer." The additional skill points do seem to denote that, but the additional class skills should be a set number and not a number based upon intelligence. I would also set the skills to something specific and perhaps bard/rogue-like, though not quite as many as either. The larger reason why I don't think its flavor matches its abilities is that its special abilities have little to nothing to do with being a traveler or journeymen and the ability to select your own skills means that you don't even need to have the skills that would be important to being a traveller and you could just select the most useful ones. Scion This isn't even a sorcerer. This is a spontaneous cleric/downgraded Mystic from Dragonlance/altered favored soul from the complete divine. |
| slade_caizer06-28-05, 10:14 PM | I love variants on sorcerer. I love sorcerer for that matter, but I do think it could use something...more. Battle Sorcerer is definitely a good stab in the right direction. I almost fear it over-shoots the mark, but perhaps it doesn't. At any rate there's been a recent trend in my group of late. The majority of us are dabbling in psionics. In so doing I've spent a bit of time just analyzing the psion. Why is this relevant? Well aside from the different list of options (powers/spells) and a slightly different casting (manifesting) mechanic, it looks like a great effort to smash wizard and sorcerer together. Hit die? d4 Proficiencies? A handfull of weapons (very much like wizard) Spells known? It looks like wizard if scribing new spells into the book never took place. The exception would be that spells known for 0 and 1st level look more like sorcerer. (If you always choose the highest possible spell/power level, then you'll know 5 1st, 4 2nd-8th, and 8 9th. Of course you can always choose to learn lower level powers, but this is to give you an idea of how top-heavy one could make it.) Spells per day? This doesn't really come into play due to psionic's point-based system, but I'm envisioning something like sorcerer's spells per day. It also has the bonus feats at exactly the same levels as wizard. Instead of giving the familiar for free, however, a bonus feat is thrown in at 1st level as well, and that may or may not be taken. I think this is great for those that don't want the familiar but do want something more appropriate to them. At the same time it's nothing new to those that do like a familiar. The discipline is almost exactly like specializing with a couple of exceptions. First, you have to do it. Secondly, the powers (spells) offered are a separate list of options; this is very much reminiscent of domains. All the while you still have access to the general list. On the down side, there's no extra incentive given for the specialization, but it's not nearly so restrictive. You can't use magic (psionic) items with powers in them that are forbidden to you, but that's not nearly so far-reaching as banning an entire school of magic. Base attack bonus is also 1/2 and Will is the good save. If ever there comes about a 4.0 edition I'd like to see something like this as the primary arcane caster. I'd probably call it sorcerer over wizard, but I could accept either. What do the rest of you think? Would this be overboard? Is it not even close to the flavor you want? Would it be ideal for you? |
| RavenDrake06-29-05, 03:56 AM | True, but so are wizards. Wizards just have a smidge more class abilities related to their spellcasting. Yes, I suppose, but my point was that Wizards have something besides Spells to show for thier class, and they have to study and train, whereas Sorcerer's get thier spells(essentially) for free... but have even less class abilities than the Wizard. However, taking your comments to bear on the ideas: Savant That was my problem with the Savant, really. I wanted to give them something to make them stand out over a regular sorcerer, but not to overpower them in comparison... Initially, I also had them gaining bonus spells known at each spell level(just after, actually), but I removed that as of posting. Something Else I considered was giving them Eschew Components at first level (in going with their natural magical nature). Another idea that springs to mind, on the Savant front, is this... Spell-like Substitution. At 5th level and every odd level after that, they get access to a Spell-like substitution. One spell they know now becomes a spell-like ability. It can be used 1/day, plus they can lose an equivilent or higher level spell slot at any time to activate it as a Spell-like Ability. Jorneyman Actually, it was never stated they were "Traveler-oriented Sorcerers"... I don't know where you got that unless it was the name. The initial idea was to make them similar to the Experts(NPC class in DMG), the Idea that they were a normal person, with thier own choice of skills, that suddenly gained magical aptitude. Meaning you could have a building and Craft oriented Sorcerer. Or a rogue and thievery oriented Sorcerer. Or a Wild Traveling Sorcerer... They get a minimum of 5 skills (plus positive Int bonus, max of 10. Why shouldn't your limitation of knowledge be based on int? or should they magically get Cha bonus of skills like they magically get spells?). Essentially, they'd be adventurers, but then by default ALL PC classes are, and I don't see Wizards with any traveling skills. But there's nothing to say they can't be sedentary and stay put in one place, or rely on others to help them through the world. Scion Never heard of either of the classes you mentioned this as being a rip off/half assed copy of. However, the basis of this thread was Sorcerous casters, which the Scion is. Sorcerous as in spontanious spellcasting, if not neccessarily arcane magics. |
| Kurama Youko06-29-05, 09:02 AM | ... cant believe you never heard of the Favored Soul. -_- anyway, it pretty much is the divine spontaneous spellcaster of choice in most cases. spread out class features with divine spontaneous spellcasting drived from the cleric spell list. anyway, im probably one of the few people who can stand to see the sorcerer stand as it is, so long as they publish material that is sorcerer only and that helps improve the power curve for sorcerers. |
| Blaque06-29-05, 03:47 PM | I think the main issue with Sorcerer I have is that it feels like to me they just took the Wizard, thought spontaneousness made up for the lack of feats, and and then didn't take into account htings that weakned Wizards really hurt Sorcerers a bit more. There are three key things i get this from: Hit Die - The d4 is really something i'm not sure I like any Class having. Its a general complaint, but I think the d4 for Wizards was to make them as needed to be protected by Fighers and the lot as they are. Sorcerers not getting a d6 makes sense, but I think its more an irk i have that the only core classes so far that get d4 are the arcane casters. Even Shugenja get a d6. Skills Per Level - This irks me a lot. The reason Wizerds get only Int + 2 is because they are Int-dependant anyhow. Sorcerers on the other hand, get penalized for being a copy and paste job it feels like to me. Now, granted, clerics and the like get only Int + 2 also. But Sorcerers are siad to be a good face, but if you want to be a good caster, your limited skill points are eaten up by things like Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, or Concentration. I would of honestly thought htey would of given them Int+ 4 personally. It ties them with Wizards in that department. Skill List - This is the biggest hit in the gut I think. They are a Charisma-based Class. Its their most important stat for spell-casting, and then they make their skill list only have one Charisma-based skill (Bluff). This shows unintelligiant game desing I think. Especially for a skill supposed to be a face as well. I think a wiser additon would fo included Diplomacy and Sense Motive to their lists. Makes the extra skill points justifyable too, while we're at it. Now with that in mind, I do think there are idneed some nice steps in a good direction. Battle Sorcerers come to mind as a really cool example of such. They are mroe then just "spontaneous wizards" I think. They got the nifties of armor, the hit die,a nd the ability to kick some ass. It gives you incentive to make a spell list with more then the standard Wizard affair, such as taking copious amounts of self-buffs and hte lot. I thinkt hat's a particuler nifty to it. Especially with the introduction of other spontaneous classes that fill the srocerer niche nicely at htis point as well (Mainly, Warlocks, Warmages, and Favored Souls), I think the Sorcerer does need boosts like the battle Sorcerer. It needs more flavor to it mainly I think. And I hope more nifty varients show up for stuff:) More stuff. |