Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Althor Enchantor 02-19-04, 12:28 PM	Just a few simple points: 1) As demonstrated by feedback on these boards, a significant number of people are houseruling sorcerers or using variant ones to give them a power boost. I admit that nowhere near *all* gamers are doing this, but it must be noted that many are. 2) Regardless of what any given individual's opinion is on the Sorc's power level, one must accept from point #1 that a large number of gamers think the Sorcerer is underpowered; otherwise, they would most likely not change the rules in such a way as to make them more powerful, all extraordinary campaign settings aside. 3) As proven by my personal experience, there exists an indeterminate number of gamers who feel the Sorc is underpowered in addition to the gamers mentioned above, but who do not houserule or homebrew their Sorc's, perhaps because either they or their DM insist on playing by the books regardless of their personal feelings on the matter. 4) Given point #3, there are people who would only benefit from a Sorc with a higher power level if it were published by WotC, and given point #2, there is a large number of people who would be made happier if WotC published a new Sorc with a higher power level. Conclusion: WotC should officially revamp the Sorcerer's power level. Additional Question: How can we convince WotC to undertake this endeavor?
Szatany 02-19-04, 12:45 PM	Alternate sorcerer fixed problem with sorcerer in my campaign. Actually one of my players playes 1st level human sorcerer (fire hemomancer) and she is very pleased. I strongly doubt she would play PHB sorcerer (she once looked at it and said thats Boring class). So see? Fix
DM Zoc 02-19-04, 01:01 PM	There's also a number of players who believe the Sorcerer to be vastly over-powered in its current state, and who might ban them altogether if they were made more powerful.
Sockslayer 02-19-04, 01:13 PM	Well the sorcerer might seem a little underpowered. But I think the class more than makes up for it in flavor. Anyway it would be nice if wizard changed the class a little, adding things like eschew materials enhance the class and wouldn't overpower them.
Mercurius 02-19-04, 01:20 PM	The variant sorcerer that I find personally appealing is the Alt Sorcerer version 8 (I think it's at v8). It approaches the sorcerer under the assumption that the class is fine in power, but not balanced in terms of playability and flavor. So, they weaken the overall spells per day to give the class a few more specials, thereby potentially keeping the class balanced with the general sorcerer, but also discouraging the "Prestige class at earliest opportunity" syndrome that plagues the sorcerer as written. I personally like it, and believe it gives the class some useful mechanical flavor. I've also seen it in action (though on a limited scale) and saw nothing really wrong with it at all. I'd like to see it become official, honestly.
BlaineTog 02-19-04, 01:53 PM	Originally posted by Althor Enchantor Conclusion: WotC should officially revamp the Sorcerer's power level. Additional Question: How can we convince WotC to undertake this endeavor? Don't have to. if you are looking for a more martially-oriented Sorcerer, take a look at pages 56-57 of Unearthed Arcana. There is a Battle Sorcerer there with: d8 HD, casting in light armor, 3/4 BaB, and proficiency with both light armor and 1 martial weapon. It switches Intimidate with Bluff and takes away one spells known and spells per day per spell level (minumum one). This is a slight power boost (albeit in what some would consider the wrong direction), but it's in a Published WotC hardcover book. That said, THe sorcerer is not balanced with the wizard at high levels. At low levels, he's a walking talking MM battery. At mid levels, he becomes a Fireball/Lightning battery. At high levels, it get more finnessed, but the number of spells known is still depressingly small. In any case, Alt.sors may not fix everyone's campaign, but they certainly fix some people's.
Mith 02-19-04, 02:37 PM	I think a big problem with alt sorcerers is the balance between core classes and PrCs. To make a sorcerer that is worth staying in, you have to compete with divine oracle, sacred exorcist, and often even a level of contemplative. I'm starting to conclude that the only way to make a sorcerer alt really playable for 20 levels is to disallow all spellcasting PrCs that don't require spontaneous spells to your sorcerer. Do you really think that you can make levels 18, 19, and 20 better than DO 1/SE 1/Contemplative 1? If you do, a vast majority at least of the people on these boards will whine about it until the topic dies. The other option is to just add the 5 feats the sorcerer needs to balance it against the wizard (I contend that the balance of power between sorcerer and wizard is Scribe Scroll and 4 metamagic feats, no more and no less.), and resign yourself to the fact that PrCs offer so mugh extra power to the sorcerer and wizard that only a nutcase wouldn't PrC.
BlaineTog 02-19-04, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Mith The other option is to just add the 5 feats the sorcerer needs to balance it against the wizard (I contend that the balance of power between sorcerer and wizard is Scribe Scroll and 4 metamagic feats, no more and no less.), and resign yourself to the fact that PrCs offer so mugh extra power to the sorcerer and wizard that only a nutcase wouldn't PrC.Only a nutcase, you say? :weep: I feel as if I've just been insulted. ;) That would certainly be a step in the right direction, but I think that just giving them the wizard's feats ver batim just... doesm't smell right. Mabye shift it so at level one, the sorcerer gets Eshcew Materials and some minor metamagic (mabye Spell Thematics). The later ones would be choses from their own list (which would include metamagics but not Spell Mastery, obviously, or Craft magical stuff since the flavor's kinda off).
detectevil 02-19-04, 03:42 PM	The sorcerer is seriously hampered in the Metamagic departament due to the lack of feats. But wizards are suposed to KNOW more about magic, while sorcerers suposed to cast more easely. But I feel sorcerers have too many spells per day. They really should have theyr spell per day decreased by one every level, and spell know increased by one every level. Maybe even 2 every level. I think this would help them be more than fireball batteries, to become more usefull to the party.
Althor Enchantor 02-19-04, 07:00 PM	Originally posted by Szatany Alternate sorcerer fixed problem with sorcerer in my campaign. Actually one of my players playes 1st level human sorcerer (fire hemomancer) and she is very pleased. I strongly doubt she would play PHB sorcerer (she once looked at it and said thats Boring class). So see? Fix ::smacks head against desk:: First poster, and you didn't even read further than the TITLE! At least some of the subsequent posters made intelligent, if not unexpected comments... BlaineTog: Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I'll check that book out. Other guy(s): I thought I already touched upon the whole "It's underpowered/No it isn't" argument with my "a lot of people do indeed think it's underpowered and their wretched voices calling out in anguish from the depths of Inferno must be heard" comment. DM Zoc: Your comment frightens me immensely, yet all voices must be heard, of cour---HADOKEN!!! ::Buries evidence of person with contrary opinion::
olfactatron 02-19-04, 07:16 PM	After having played a couple of sorcs, it seems to me that they are fairly balanced with wizard, which seems to be the point of contention, i.e. sorcs don't have enough versatility to be viable. (jeez, what a run-on.) I think that most problems arrise when the sorc is the sole arcane caster in the party. Sorcs are not the swiss-army knives that wizards are. They are artillary. Plain and simple. And the occasional mass buff too, but that's beside the point. I think that if D&D suffers from a problem, as a whole, it is that parties are still assumed to be made up of fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric. If the sole arcane caster in the party is a sorc, or a bard for that matter, the party is likely denied some of the basic utility spells they are assumed to have at their average level. At least in most published adventures. If you have a reasonably creative DM it shouldn't be much of a problem though. Just a thought: The more I play D&D and its variants, the more it seems like it really comes together with a 6 person party.
BlaineTog 02-19-04, 07:54 PM	Originally posted by Althor Enchantor BlaineTog: Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I'll check that book out.Glad to be of service. :tiphat: DM Zoc: Your comment frightens me immensely, yet all voices must be heard, of cour---HADOKEN!!!Feh. Notihng beats the all-powerful BOATDOKEN! ROFLOLMAO! :D
Grimsword 02-19-04, 09:33 PM	Alt Sorcerors are the way to solve this problem! I agree that the sorcerer is too weak. I agree that it would be nice to have them increased in power in an official way. I don't think it is likely that WotC will make an official change though. They had their chance with 3.5 and decided not to make any major changes to the class. But the best way to get a powered-up official sorceror is to make Alt sorcerors. Firstly, they solve the problems for those that use them. Secondly, it is the best way to show WotC that change is needed. There were a million and one alt rangers out there and even 3rd party designers were creating and publishing alt rangers. WotC took note and changed the ranger. If there are enough people creating and using alt sorcerors then WotC will be more likely to do something about it themselves. So go create more Alt Sorcerors if you want an official change.
Ehelonna 02-19-04, 10:07 PM	Originally posted by Grimsword Alt Sorcerors are the way to solve this problem! I agree that the sorcerer is too weak. I agree that it would be nice to have them increased in power in an official way. I don't think it is likely that WotC will make an official change though. They had their chance with 3.5 and decided not to make any major changes to the class. Actually, with the nerfing of arcane magic, the sorcerer actually went down in power in 3.5. No more hasting yourself to cast more spells, or buffing the entire party for hours. :rolleyes: The biggest problem with sorcerers is that other than spell caster levels (ok and familiar improvement) there is absolutely no reason to advance in sorcerer beyond first level... I don't think that ANY other class is that solidly front end loaded.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 02-19-04, 10:31 PM	There's also an alternate version of the sorcerer in the Book of Eldritch Might, written by our lord and master, Monte Cook. Basically, they get d6's for HP, more skill points, and they learn slightly more new spells (the sorcerer spells known table looks like this) Lvl 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ------------------------------------------------------ 1 5 2 2 5 3 3 6 3 4 6 4 2 5 7 4 2 6 7 4 3 2 7 8 5 3 2 8 8 5 4 3 2 etc. To offset the benefits, there's a alternate sorcerer spell list that excludes some of the less immediately useful spells, such as identify, and some spells have higher levels (like shield and invisibility).
VirgilCaine 02-19-04, 10:53 PM	Just a thought: The more I play D&D and its variants, the more it seems like it really comes together with a 6 person party. [gratuitous 80's quote] I love it when a plan comes together! [/gratuitous 80's quote] Perhaps it does, even though 3.0 was designed for a four person party +1 DM, I suppose the apples don't fall far from the horse.
DM Zoc 02-19-04, 11:36 PM	In my defense, campaigns I've seen are not nearly as "scroll heavy" as what is presumably standard; a Wizard isn't nearly as versatile in comparsion when he only has his 2 free spells per level, and maybe a smattering of others.
olfactatron 02-20-04, 12:32 AM	In my defense, campaigns I've seen are not nearly as "scroll heavy" as what is presumably standard; a Wizard isn't nearly as versatile in comparsion when he only has his 2 free spells per level, and maybe a smattering of others. A smattering? How does your DM roll up treasure? I've rarely prepared a stash that doesn't have at least one scroll in it. It's one of the most common magic items. You have to assume the treasure charts are one of the things that were taken into account when determining overall power/level. If a DM is not allowing wizards to at least buy scrolls, I'd hope he had some comparable leash on warrior classes ability to buy weapons and armor, and then adjusted CRs and ELs accordingly.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 02-20-04, 02:13 AM	written by our lord and master, Monte Cook. :twitch: :weep: :headexplo Aaaaaanyways... After playing both a Wizard and Sorcerer through a few levels, I found a few cases where the Sorcerer's "On-demand-versatility"/firepower came in handy over the Wizards but it wasn't worth the trade of being able to learn new spells as needed. Hell, even the 2/level Wizards get is better than the Sorcerer and the Wizard still has the option of learning more whenever they have time/cash. Even if scrolls are rare in your world a Wizard will still most likley have double the number of spells known a Sorcerer has.
DM Zoc 02-20-04, 02:39 AM	Originally posted by olfactatron A smattering? How does your DM roll up treasure? I've rarely prepared a stash that doesn't have at least one scroll in it. It's one of the most common magic items. You have to assume the treasure charts are one of the things that were taken into account when determining overall power/level. If a DM is not allowing wizards to at least buy scrolls, I'd hope he had some comparable leash on warrior classes ability to buy weapons and armor, and then adjusted CRs and ELs accordingly. Roll up treasure? That doesn't even make any sense. Each treasure is reasonably fit to the critter that guards it; we don't fight many casters, so we don't get a lot of scrolls.
BlaineTog 02-20-04, 02:56 AM	Originally posted by DM Zoc Roll up treasure? That doesn't even make any sense.Actually, it does. There are tables that you can use to roll for the treasure that the PCs recieve in the DMG. Each treasure is reasonably fit to the critter that guards it; we don't fight many casters, so we don't get a lot of scrolls.If you arn't fighting many casters, but you have casters in your group, then the baddies are at an unfair disadvantage. You never fight UMDing rogues either?
TaisharMalkier 02-20-04, 03:42 AM	Zug Zug. More spells per day? Later on, it dosen't matter in the slightest. Hello, Wands and Scrolls. If you ever run out of spells after level 10, remind me to hit you. I think a decent solution as of now (though dosent solve prestige class wantatude ;p) is 4 skill points a level, and a domain (ALA cleric) known. Adds a bit of flavor (Good domain is celestial, etc - see Ultimate Sorcerer post, but ignore special abilities), and makes em more balanced as compared to a wizard. Cheers
DM Zoc 02-20-04, 04:02 AM	It's not that we don't fight wizards or rogues; it's more that we choose our enemies carefully. If there's a BBEG after us, then we're doing something wrong.
rogue_lettuce 02-20-04, 05:18 AM	OK, here's my sorcerer idea in it's entirety. Same as normal sorc except... They have the same sense of wnaderlust and adventure as bards and adventurers, meaning they move around often. Their magic is as eclectic and chaotic as their personalities and their dress. A sorcerer learns to harness the bare power of magic in such a way as to allow them to do almost anything once they are well learned in the ways of the blood magic. They are slightly more chaotic than wizards, like bards. They also tend to know a few tales of legendary battles, etc, like bards, but this offers no benifit in game terms - they are simply an annoyance when drunk. Alignment:unless you have specific DM permission, you cannot play a sorcerer of lawful alignment. D6 hit points per level Skills - 4+int mod per level No familiar Eschew Material Components at 1st lvl Also, they learn at 2nd level ways of manipulating magic - at each even numbered level that they advance in sorcerer, they may learn a new way to manipulate their magic. This can never cause it to do more or less damage, change it's area of effect, add bonuses of any kind, cause fear, appear to be more or less powerful than it is, or appear to be another spell or not a spell at all. (It is up to the DM how much the players can learn at each odd level. A good guideline is to allow only the colour to be changed, the shape to be changed, the sound to be changed, a smell to be changed or added, etc, each time the player learns a new trick. These can stack - a player can change the colour and shape in one go at 4th level, etc) NOTE:This is purely for flavour, and should give them only a small advantage, if any, over someone who doesn't have it if any at all. Energy substitution at 5th level. May change any descriptor(s) of a spell with regard to element, etc to another descriptor. Cannot add descriptors, unless the spell has no descriptors and no clue of what type of damage it is is in the flavour text/description. If you do this, you may only ever add ONE descriptor(i.e. magic missile could become fire, but fireball could not become fire and electricity.). Cannot take away descriptors (but may replace them with *arcane* or *magic* etc.) They cannot change a descriptor Spell is treated as one level higher. (They may choose to use up a feat slot earlier, ie. 1st lvl, etc, to get this, and then take any other metamagic feat when they get this.) Start getting 'power points' at 6th level, and get a third of their class level per day, any not used at the end of the day are wasted. Extra spell known of any level they can already cast (they choose when leveling up) at 10th, 15th and 20th level. Also at 6th level and above, they may learn divine magic from any list, except it takes up a spell slot 2.5 times higher than it would for the character casting it. (rounding up) example - they may learn cure light wounds as a third level spell. Orisons cast in this way are counted as first level. NOTE: Should they wish to do this, they still have to learn the spells as usual ,so they will be giving up some of their arcane spells - it's a trade-off few sorcerers are willing to make. (At 10th level, they may substitute their points for the extra levels- i.e. a sorcerer could cast cure light wounds as a 1st level spell if they also spent 2 'points' and it would be extended to a full-round casting. This is because it counts as using a metamagic feat.) Bonus metamagic feat at 15th level. NEW FEAT: Metamagic artisan. Prerequisites: Must be a sorcerer. Benifits:The sorcerer gains an additional 2 'power points' per day This feat can be taken up to three times, its effects stack.
detectevil 02-20-04, 07:58 AM	Isn't there a Psionics Handbook somewhere out there? But seriously, I reject sorcerers with a d6 HD. Monty did it because he believes having a d4 for hit dice is not playable. This might have been true in previous editions, but not anymore. IMO, sorcerers are pure casters, like wizards, and like wizards, should have D4 for hit dice. I will call for the 4+int skills because sorcerers should be doing something with their time while the wizard is studying. In the domains aspect, call them themes or something other than bloodline, and have them show on the sorcerer class abilities, and I think we might be on to something. 1 Summon Familiar, extra spell 2 3 Extra spell 4 5 Extra spell 6 7 Extra spell 8 9 Extra spell 10 and so on... This might help a bit. Preety much one extra spell known per spell level, and you loose this benefit if you prestigeclass.
Cross Hatch 02-20-04, 07:58 AM	Originally posted by Althor Enchantor Just a few simple points: 1) As demonstrated by feedback on these boards, a significant number of people are houseruling sorcerers or using variant ones to give them a power boost. I admit that nowhere near *all* gamers are doing this, but it must be noted that many are. 2) Regardless of what any given individual's opinion is on the Sorc's power level, one must accept from point #1 that a large number of gamers think the Sorcerer is underpowered; otherwise, they would most likely not change the rules in such a way as to make them more powerful, all extraordinary campaign settings aside. 3) As proven by my personal experience, there exists an indeterminate number of gamers who feel the Sorc is underpowered in addition to the gamers mentioned above, but who do not houserule or homebrew their Sorc's, perhaps because either they or their DM insist on playing by the books regardless of their personal feelings on the matter. 4) Given point #3, there are people who would only benefit from a Sorc with a higher power level if it were published by WotC, and given point #2, there is a large number of people who would be made happier if WotC published a new Sorc with a higher power level. Conclusion: WotC should officially revamp the Sorcerer's power level. Additional Question: How can we convince WotC to undertake this endeavor? I got an entirely different impression from this post. It was as if the poster wanted WotC to write something official so that the GM and Player could be relieved of the responsibility of exercising artisitic and management license. Political issues aside, the idea itself is bs because then you'd only have other GMs and Players who didn't like those new changes put in the same bind. You have to recognize the need for GMs to actually do some Game Mastering instead of shifting that duty onto WotC.